I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water , It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water , It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.


Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic,
you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which
is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with
synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly
concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural
fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very
easy to over dose.

If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse. On the other hand pay
close attention to the content of whatever you are applying and don't
exceed the recommended rate of application. If your soil is very
deficient it will be less risky to apply several small doses several
weeks apart through the growing season rather than one big one.

David

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water , It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.


Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known
and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best
to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil
organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia, which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with
alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.)

Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit
N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4
P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4
K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60


Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N .70 3 5
P .30 1 1
K .90 2 1


The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic,
you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which
is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with
synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly
concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural
fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very
easy to over dose.

If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse. On the other hand pay
close attention to the content of whatever you are applying and don't
exceed the recommended rate of application. If your soil is very
deficient it will be less risky to apply several small doses several
weeks apart through the growing season rather than one big one.

David
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

On Wed, 25 May 2011 08:32:58 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water , It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.


Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known
and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best
to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil
organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia,

How do you know this?

which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with
alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.)


How do you know there are no salts in lucerne meal? Did you actually
measure the pH?

Why is this pH effect not seen when liming?

Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Agreed.


Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit
N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4
P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4
K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60


Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N .70 3 5
P .30 1 1
K .90 2 1


The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic,
you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which
is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with
synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly
concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural
fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very
easy to over dose.

If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse. On the other hand pay
close attention to the content of whatever you are applying and don't
exceed the recommended rate of application. If your soil is very
deficient it will be less risky to apply several small doses several
weeks apart through the growing season rather than one big one.

David


David

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Wed, 25 May 2011 08:32:58 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The
bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter
fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water ,
It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I
put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water
the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its
dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.


Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known
and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best
to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil
organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia,

How do you know this?

You can smell the ammonia. Ammonia will only do one thing to an aqueous
solution, and that is to turn it basic.

Plants cannot excrete ammonia and levels exceeding those that can be
incorporated are toxic.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg037.htm

Ammonia Toxicity -- Although ammonia is a source of plant nitrogen, high
concentrations are phytotoxic.
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/Compost_Damage.htm



You are proposing that although the salt in alfalfa is insufficient to
kill the alfalfa, there is sufficient salt in the alfalfa to kill other
plants? In my clay soil, if alfalfa was high in salt there should have
been reduced yields from my garden, since our garden is always dressed
with alfalfa.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01615.html

I don't see the problem.

I realize that some alfalfa is sold with salt supplements, but that
isn't what I buy.


which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with
alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.)


How do you know there are no salts in lucerne meal? Did you actually
measure the pH?

No salt? I doubt there is any plant with "no salt".

Why is this pH effect not seen when liming?
No idea.
Liming? Is that hanging out with Brits?


Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Agreed.

Are you suggesting that there is too much salt in chook poo, and that is
why it can burn plants?


Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit
N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4
P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4
K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60


Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N .70 3 5
P .30 1 1
K .90 2 1


The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic,
you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which
is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with
synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly
concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural
fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very
easy to over dose.

If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse.
I suspect that, while fresh, horse manure may produce ammonia toxicity,
if spread too thickly.

On the other hand pay
close attention to the content of whatever you are applying and don't
exceed the recommended rate of application. If your soil is very
deficient it will be less risky to apply several small doses several
weeks apart through the growing season rather than one big one.

David


David
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

"Billy" wrote in message
David Hare-Scott wrote:
Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Agreed.

Are you suggesting that there is too much salt in chook poo, and that is
why it can burn plants?

It's bleedingly obvious that he's not saying that. Your strawman is silly.

On Wed, 25 May 2011 16:35:16 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Wed, 25 May 2011 08:32:58 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The
bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter
fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water ,
It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I
put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water
the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its
dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.


Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known
and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best
to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil
organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia,

How do you know this?

You can smell the ammonia. Ammonia will only do one thing to an aqueous
solution, and that is to turn it basic.

True but you are yet to establish that is going to be a problem.


Plants cannot excrete ammonia and levels exceeding those that can be
incorporated are toxic.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg037.htm

That does not say that ammonia is toxic to plants, it's a human hazard
assessment.


Ammonia Toxicity -- Although ammonia is a source of plant nitrogen, high
concentrations are phytotoxic.
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/Compost_Damage.htm



That does say that excess ammonia is toxic to plants. It may be so
but I would like to see some more authoritative comment on the
subject.



You are proposing that although the salt in alfalfa is insufficient to
kill the alfalfa, there is sufficient salt in the alfalfa to kill other
plants?

No I am not saying that and I don't know why your alfalfa causes
burning.

In my clay soil, if alfalfa was high in salt there should have
been reduced yields from my garden, since our garden is always dressed
with alfalfa.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01615.html

I don't see the problem.

I realize that some alfalfa is sold with salt supplements, but that
isn't what I buy.


which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with
alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.)


How do you know there are no salts in lucerne meal? Did you actually
measure the pH?

No salt? I doubt there is any plant with "no salt".

Before you were saying it is the rise in pH that is the problem that's
why I asked what the pH was. I didn't say there was no salt. Silly
Billy.

Why are you interchanging "salts" with "salt". Salt is somewhat
ambiguous depending on the context, I was using it in the technical
sense of the combination of an acid and a base, not on the common
usage of sodium chloride (a specific salt).


Why is this pH effect not seen when liming?
No idea.

Well your theory that plant burning is caused by ammonium hydroxide
raising pH would need to account for other substances that raise pH
but don't burn.

Liming? Is that hanging out with Brits?


Ho ho ho.



Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Agreed.

Are you suggesting that there is too much salt in chook poo, and that is
why it can burn plants?

Too many salts not sodium chloride. Ammonium hydroxide which is what
you would have in chook poo is a salt. Don't you say that you are a
chemist or are you just bored and trying to spin this out with some
added confusion?



Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit
N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4
P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4
K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60


Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N .70 3 5
P .30 1 1
K .90 2 1


The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic,
you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which
is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with
synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly
concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural
fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very
easy to over dose.

If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse.
I suspect that, while fresh, horse manure may produce ammonia toxicity,
if spread too thickly.

Your suspicion is not supported by observation in the field nor animal
metabolism. The reason that most mammals don't have any significant
amount of ammonia in their feces is that nitrogen compounds are
removed from the blood by the kidneys to urine as urea, uric acid etc.
OTOH birds don't urinate and their excess nitrogen is dumped into the
cloaca along with their bowel contents, a good proportion as ammonia.
This is why bird manure is 'hotter' than from mammals such as horses
and cows.

Rabbits are coprophagic which apparently alters their nitrogen
metabolism and somehow that increases the nitrogen in their feces. As
I don't have access to such for my garden (I try to exclude the little
dears) I am not inclined to delve into rabbit poop any further.

David

Billy wrote:
David Hare-Scott wrote:
DogDiesel wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water , It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known
and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best
to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil
organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia, which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with
alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.)

sure it wasn't a fungal attack?

what kind of plants and how old
were they?

a fungal attack could look like
chemical burn if you caught it only
after it was done.

adding alfalfa to a potted plant
would be asking for trouble.

adding it in measured quantities to
a worm bin would be a wonderful thing.
taking the results of the worm bin and
adding that to a potted plant would
likely be a much better result (in
moderation as the plant's nature also
is important -- some plants don't need
much or any fertilizers).

....


songbird

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Wed, 25 May 2011 16:35:16 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Wed, 25 May 2011 08:32:58 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The
bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter
fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with
water ,
It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it.
I
put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water
the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its
dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non
burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.


Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known
and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best
to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil
organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia,

How do you know this?

You can smell the ammonia. Ammonia will only do one thing to an aqueous
solution, and that is to turn it basic.

True but you are yet to establish that is going to be a problem.



Plants cannot excrete ammonia and levels exceeding those that can be
incorporated are toxic.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/hsg/hsg037.htm

That does not say that ammonia is toxic to plants, it's a human hazard
assessment.
My reading of it, has it referring to plants. Read 2.2 again. Show me
where I am wrong.


Ammonia Toxicity -- Although ammonia is a source of plant nitrogen, high
concentrations are phytotoxic.
http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/Compost_Damage.htm



That does say that excess ammonia is toxic to plants. It may be so
but I would like to see some more authoritative comment on the
subject.
I hope you get your wish. In the mean time phytotoxic means toxic to
plants.



You are proposing that although the salt in alfalfa is insufficient to
kill the alfalfa, there is sufficient salt in the alfalfa to kill other
plants?

No I am not saying that and I don't know why your alfalfa causes
burning.
Be cause I can smell the ammonia from it. I should add that I don't use
alfalfa meal anymore. A bale of alfalfa (lucerene) seems sufficient for
the mulch, and fish emulsion for everything else. Did I mention that I
only used the alfalfa meal in pots once, and after I realized its
strength, radically reduced the amount that I use. I still like it but I
don't feel in need of a new learning curve. I'll just stick to what I
know.

In my clay soil, if alfalfa was high in salt there should have
been reduced yields from my garden, since our garden is always dressed
with alfalfa.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01615.html

I don't see the problem.

I realize that some alfalfa is sold with salt supplements, but that
isn't what I buy.


which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with
alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.)


How do you know there are no salts in lucerne meal? Did you actually
measure the pH?

No salt? I doubt there is any plant with "no salt".

Before you were saying it is the rise in pH that is the problem that's
why I asked what the pH was. I didn't say there was no salt. Silly
Billy.
Cute ;O) You asked,"How do you know there are no salts in lucerne meal"?
Problem is that I never said that there were no salts in alfalfa.

Why are you interchanging "salts" with "salt". Salt is somewhat
ambiguous depending on the context, I was using it in the technical
sense of the combination of an acid and a base, not on the common
usage of sodium chloride (a specific salt).
The type of salt was never stated. You really are working too hard at
trying to nail me to the shed.


Why is this pH effect not seen when liming?
No idea.

Well your theory that plant burning is caused by ammonium hydroxide
raising pH would need to account for other substances that raise pH
but don't burn.
Such as???

Liming? Is that hanging out with Brits?


Ho ho ho.



Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Agreed.

Are you suggesting that there is too much salt in chook poo, and that is
why it can burn plants?

Too many salts not sodium chloride. Ammonium hydroxide which is what
you would have in chook poo is a salt. Don't you say that you are a
chemist or are you just bored and trying to spin this out with some
added confusion?

Whoever mentioned sodium chloride? Any salt in excess can be bad for
soil ecology.



Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit
N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4
P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4
K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60


Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N .70 3 5
P .30 1 1
K .90 2 1


The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic,
you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which
is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with
synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly
concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural
fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very
easy to over dose.

If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse.
I suspect that, while fresh, horse manure may produce ammonia toxicity,
if spread too thickly.

Your suspicion is not supported by observation in the field nor animal
metabolism. The reason that most mammals don't have any significant
amount of ammonia in their feces is that nitrogen compounds are
removed from the blood by the kidneys to urine as urea, uric acid etc.
And when the urea or protein breaks down, bim-bat-a-boom, you got
ammonia. Proteins are made from aminoacids, and "amino" means ammonia.
OTOH birds don't urinate and their excess nitrogen is dumped into the
cloaca along with their bowel contents, a good proportion as ammonia.
This is why bird manure is 'hotter' than from mammals such as horses
and cows.
And rabbits?

Rabbits are coprophagic which apparently alters their nitrogen
metabolism and somehow that increases the nitrogen in their feces. As
I don't have access to such for my garden (I try to exclude the little
dears) I am not inclined to delve into rabbit poop any further.

David
Seems like a lot of shit to me ;O)

So are you saying that the toxicity of alfalfa meal is due to salt?

Have another tinny on me ;O)
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

In article ,
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:

"Billy" wrote in message
David Hare-Scott wrote:
Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Agreed.

Are you suggesting that there is too much salt in chook poo, and that is
why it can burn plants?

It's bleedingly obvious that he's not saying that. Your strawman is silly.

Fran, Booby, first David said that the cause of fertilizer burning was
concentrated salts. Then he asks me,"How do you know there are no salts
in lucerne meal?" The ONLY cause of fertilizer burn that David addressed
was salt (any freakin' kind of salt). To what do you ascribe the ability
of chook poo to burn plants? Hmmmm?

G'day.
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

In article ,
songbird wrote:

adding alfalfa to a potted plant
would be asking for trouble.

Why? :O)
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

You really are working too hard at trying to nail me to the shed.


It wasn't intended to be personal, I'm sorry you took it that way.

There is enough folklore in gardening as it is, so I want to see
substantiation before I accept things.

David

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

You really are working too hard at trying to nail me hide to the shed.


It wasn't intended to be personal, I'm sorry you took it that way.
Then do you mind, if I tie your kangaroo down, sport?

There is enough folklore in gardening as it is, so I want to see
substantiation before I accept things.

Seems to be a lot of that going around.

David

What's a little bantering between guys with dirty fingernails? You may
have noticed, I enjoy bantering. It lets me practice my rhetorical
dynamism from "golly gee to brimstone". It's just invectives that I find
irritating and pointless.

I never did get your take on why organic fertilizers can burn plants.
Are the salts in organic fertilizers really that high, or do you you
have a different yarn for organics? ;O)
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

"Billy" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:20 -0400, "DogDiesel"
wrote:

I've got burn questions about fertilizers.

I've got a lot of old liquid fish mixes and micro nutrients , From my
hydroponics . I used them last year in my outdoor soil garden . The
bottles
of fish mix say they wont burn. One is 5-1-1 and the Alaska starter
fish
mix is 2-1-1 . I know they are only 100 % ground fish mixed with water
, It
looks like syrup and stinks. Last year my garden did very good on it. I
put
about a half a shot glass with about 2 gallons of water and hand water
the
plants. Maybe three times for the summer. My soil was N deficient.

Just so you know .It wont burn. No matter what. Or how much.

What's the reason some fertilizers wont burn,. Is it just because its
dead
fish. Or natural or something. And if it wont burn, Why isn't non
burning
fertilizers available in the big stores.

What else could be used as non burning fertilizers?

Thanks

Diesel.


Fertiliser burn is caused by high concentrations of soluble salts,
typically this is nitrogen salts because they are found in most
fertilisers and they are very soluble but you could get the same from
say potassium salts.

The dehydrating effects of salts (chemical fertilizers) are well known
and not restricted to fertilizer salts. It is also for this reason best
to avoid chemferts, because salts have a deleterious effect on soil
organisms and ecology. Regardless of what Wikipedia says, fertilizer
burn with organic fertilizers comes from the pH raising effects of
ammonia, which is released as the proteins in the organic material
breaks down. (I was able to quite handily fry some potted plants with
alfalfa [lucerne] meal quiet easily, no salts necessary.)

Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration is
everything.

Manure Chicken Diary cow Horse Steer Rabbit
N 1.1 .257 .70 .70 2.4
P .80 .15 .30 .30 1.4
K .50 .25 .60 .40 .60


Manure Sheep Alfalfa Fish Emulsion
N .70 3 5
P .30 1 1
K .90 2 1


The burning is not specifically related to natural versus synthetic,
you can burn plants easily with manure straight from the chicken which
is about as natural as you can get. The reason that it is common with
synthetic, store bought, fertilisers is that they are highly
concentrated having little or no fibre or water (unlike natural
fertilisers) and they are mostly or entirely soluble, so it is very
easy to over dose.

If you want a no-burn fertiliser get a horse. On the other hand pay
close attention to the content of whatever you are applying and don't
exceed the recommended rate of application. If your soil is very
deficient it will be less risky to apply several small doses several
weeks apart through the growing season rather than one big one.



Its not very deficient. All I wanted to know is why this stuff dont
burn.
And why isnt it commonly used.
Because it jump starts whatever I use it on.
bigtime.

"Billy" wrote in message
"FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
"Billy" wrote in message
David Hare-Scott wrote:
Chicken and rabbit manure can be toxic to plants, as can alfalfa
meal,
or fish emulsion, if not added according to directions. Concentration
is
everything.

Agreed.

Are you suggesting that there is too much salt in chook poo, and that
is
why it can burn plants?

It's bleedingly obvious that he's not saying that. Your strawman is
silly.

Fran, Booby, first David said that the cause of fertilizer burning was
concentrated salts.

Yes he said that (amongst other things).

Then he asks me,"How do you know there are no salts
in lucerne meal?"

Yes he also asked you that too.

The ONLY cause of fertilizer burn that David addressed
was salt (any freakin' kind of salt). To what do you ascribe the ability
of chook poo to burn plants? Hmmmm?

Sigh. I don't know and I don't care either. I've never yet burned any
plant with chicken poop, and that is whether I've taken a pile of it
straight from under the night perch or just used yard scrapings.

And I'll bet David or you haven't burned plants with chook poop either.

My beef was about the introduction of the strawman when it is obvious that
David was talking about concentrations of manure. It is because we
understand concentrations that we haven't burned anything despite decades of
gardening. Strawmen are becoming a bete noir with me as seemingly they are
becoming the new vogue all over usenet - I'm beginning to think the origin
of it must result from infected water or some viral disease.