In another thread a ref was given:

Wiki also says "In Australian English, the name 'pumpkin' generally
refers to the broader category called winter squash in North America."

I had heard that before but didn't want to confuse things even more.
it looks like I need to sort it out.

For the record I am in Australia and these are pumpkins in our
dialect:

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...ewPumpkins.jpg

Would these be called winter squash or pumpkin in the US?

We don't have 'winter squash' by that name. To me a squash is a
cucurbit that is soft-skinned and picked immature, zucchini is a
squash but they come in other shapes and sizes, like button squash
(pattypan) and crookneck. The skin is green, yellow, near black or
orange. The flesh is usually pale greenish and translucent and they
don't keep very well outside refrigeration, they generally don't have
creases. I think you would call these summer squash. So let us leave
these aside for now.

To me a pumpkin is a cucurbit that is picked mature, has a hard skin
and keeps well outside refrigeration, the flesh is usually yellow to
orange and opaque. The skin is yellow, orange, grey, blue-grey or
some combination when ripe. They generally have creases running
longitudinally. Examples are Queensland blue and the above JAP (Just
Another Pumpkin).

So in the USA how do you distinguish pumpkins from winter squash? Is
pumpkin a subset of winter squash or are some pumpkins not also winter
squash?

Is there any correspondence between the different common names and the
species of cucurbit?

What about the Banter People, what is a pumpkin in Old Blighty?

David

David Hare-Scott wrote:

In another thread a ref was given:

Wiki also says "In Australian English, the name 'pumpkin' generally
refers to the broader category called winter squash in North America."

I had heard that before but didn't want to confuse things even more.
it looks like I need to sort it out.

For the record I am in Australia and these are pumpkins in our
dialect:

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...ewPumpkins.jpg

Would these be called winter squash or pumpkin in the US?

Off the top of my head- I'd call them squash. In general our
pumpkins are rounder. Usually orange- but that barrier has been
shattered with white, red, and permanently green ones.

We even have an 'Australian Blue Pumpkin' - that I'd call a squash if
I didn't have the seed packet handy. [it's a Queensland Blue]

OTOH- Atlantic Giant 'pumpkins'- all the record breaking ones we see-
are developed from a Hubbard Squash. It's a weird dance we do with
words.


We don't have 'winter squash' by that name. To me a squash is a
cucurbit that is soft-skinned and picked immature, zucchini is a
squash but they come in other shapes and sizes, like button squash
(pattypan) and crookneck. The skin is green, yellow, near black or
orange. The flesh is usually pale greenish and translucent and they
don't keep very well outside refrigeration, they generally don't have
creases. I think you would call these summer squash. So let us leave
these aside for now.


I think you've got that just right.

To me a pumpkin is a cucurbit that is picked mature, has a hard skin
and keeps well outside refrigeration, the flesh is usually yellow to
orange and opaque. The skin is yellow, orange, grey, blue-grey or
some combination when ripe. They generally have creases running
longitudinally. Examples are Queensland blue and the above JAP (Just
Another Pumpkin).

So in the USA how do you distinguish pumpkins from winter squash? Is
pumpkin a subset of winter squash or are some pumpkins not also winter
squash?


In general, pumpkins are a subset. [IMO] The exception I noted
above is a Hubbard Squash that somehow gets named a pumpkin.

I thought I'd get some help here;
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/rhodcv/ho...sh/sq00001.htm

But not so much--
"The name squash is often interchanged with that of pumpkin. Most
varieties that are called pumpkin bear orange fruit, have very long
vines, and have stems that are firmer, more rigid, and squarer than
those of other squashes.
The most common pumpkins are varieties of Cucurbita pepo.
The large-fruited pumpkins, weighing up to 400 lb, belong to the
species Cucurbita maxima. "

So some are Cucurbita Pepo, which makes them more closely related to
summer squash. And some are maxima- though they might be referring
to the Atlantic Giants here, though a 400 pound one would be a real
dissapointment to most growers.

We probably eat most of the pie pumpkins we plant- small, sweet
things. But I'd bet that as many pumpkins are grown with the
intention of being Halloween decorations. Or- in the case of the
record breakers- as a curiosity. [and if you get a 600pounder or so,
you can sell the seeds for a few bucks each.]

Is there any correspondence between the different common names and the
species of cucurbit?

What about the Banter People, what is a pumpkin in Old Blighty?


Jim

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

So in the USA how do you distinguish pumpkins from winter squash? Is
pumpkin a subset of winter squash or are some pumpkins not also winter
squash?

Squash that is to be used fresh is summer squash. Squash with hard skins
that can be saved are winter squash.
See:http://www.reimerseeds.com/squash_663.aspx
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
David Hare-Scott wrote:

In another thread a ref was given:

Wiki also says "In Australian English, the name 'pumpkin' generally
refers to the broader category called winter squash in North America."

I had heard that before but didn't want to confuse things even more.
it looks like I need to sort it out.



But then where do the candyroasters and cushaws fit in?


For the record I am in Australia and these are pumpkins in our
dialect:

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/...ewPumpkins.jpg

Would these be called winter squash or pumpkin in the US?

Off the top of my head- I'd call them squash. In general our
pumpkins are rounder. Usually orange- but that barrier has been
shattered with white, red, and permanently green ones.

We even have an 'Australian Blue Pumpkin' - that I'd call a squash if
I didn't have the seed packet handy. [it's a Queensland Blue]

OTOH- Atlantic Giant 'pumpkins'- all the record breaking ones we see-
are developed from a Hubbard Squash. It's a weird dance we do with
words.


We don't have 'winter squash' by that name. To me a squash is a
cucurbit that is soft-skinned and picked immature, zucchini is a
squash but they come in other shapes and sizes, like button squash
(pattypan) and crookneck. The skin is green, yellow, near black or
orange. The flesh is usually pale greenish and translucent and they
don't keep very well outside refrigeration, they generally don't have
creases. I think you would call these summer squash. So let us leave
these aside for now.


I think you've got that just right.

To me a pumpkin is a cucurbit that is picked mature, has a hard skin
and keeps well outside refrigeration, the flesh is usually yellow to
orange and opaque. The skin is yellow, orange, grey, blue-grey or
some combination when ripe. They generally have creases running
longitudinally. Examples are Queensland blue and the above JAP (Just
Another Pumpkin).

So in the USA how do you distinguish pumpkins from winter squash? Is
pumpkin a subset of winter squash or are some pumpkins not also winter
squash?


In general, pumpkins are a subset. [IMO] The exception I noted
above is a Hubbard Squash that somehow gets named a pumpkin.

I thought I'd get some help here;
http://www.hort.purdue.edu/rhodcv/ho...sh/sq00001.htm

But not so much--
"The name squash is often interchanged with that of pumpkin. Most
varieties that are called pumpkin bear orange fruit, have very long
vines, and have stems that are firmer, more rigid, and squarer than
those of other squashes.
The most common pumpkins are varieties of Cucurbita pepo.
The large-fruited pumpkins, weighing up to 400 lb, belong to the
species Cucurbita maxima. "

So some are Cucurbita Pepo, which makes them more closely related to
summer squash. And some are maxima- though they might be referring
to the Atlantic Giants here, though a 400 pound one would be a real
dissapointment to most growers.

We probably eat most of the pie pumpkins we plant- small, sweet
things. But I'd bet that as many pumpkins are grown with the
intention of being Halloween decorations. Or- in the case of the
record breakers- as a curiosity. [and if you get a 600pounder or so,
you can sell the seeds for a few bucks each.]

Is there any correspondence between the different common names and the
species of cucurbit?

What about the Banter People, what is a pumpkin in Old Blighty?


Jim

On Fri, 27 May 2011 21:35:28 -0400, "Steve Peek"
wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
.. .
David Hare-Scott wrote:

In another thread a ref was given:

Wiki also says "In Australian English, the name 'pumpkin' generally
refers to the broader category called winter squash in North America."

I had heard that before but didn't want to confuse things even more.
it looks like I need to sort it out.



But then where do the candyroasters and cushaws fit in?



I have no idea please elucidate.

D

On Fri, 27 May 2011 16:54:46 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

So in the USA how do you distinguish pumpkins from winter squash? Is
pumpkin a subset of winter squash or are some pumpkins not also winter
squash?

Squash that is to be used fresh is summer squash. Squash with hard skins
that can be saved are winter squash.
See:http://www.reimerseeds.com/squash_663.aspx

So far so good. What is the difference between a winter squash and a
pumpkin?


D

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Fri, 27 May 2011 16:54:46 -0700, Billy
wrote:

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

So in the USA how do you distinguish pumpkins from winter squash? Is
pumpkin a subset of winter squash or are some pumpkins not also winter
squash?

Squash that is to be used fresh is summer squash. Squash with hard skins
that can be saved are winter squash.
See:http://www.reimerseeds.com/squash_663.aspx

So far so good. What is the difference between a winter squash and a
pumpkin?


D

Traditionally, pumpkins are round and orange, like these.
http://henryfields.com/pumpkin-seed/c/108/
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Fri, 27 May 2011 21:35:28 -0400, "Steve Peek"
wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
.. .
David Hare-Scott wrote:

In another thread a ref was given:

Wiki also says "In Australian English, the name 'pumpkin' generally
refers to the broader category called winter squash in North America."

I had heard that before but didn't want to confuse things even more.
it looks like I need to sort it out.



But then where do the candyroasters and cushaws fit in?



I have no idea please elucidate.

D

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"
--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/

Steve Peek said:


But then where do the candyroasters and cushaws fit in?

Candy roasters are Cucurbita maxima (same species as Hubbard squash
and giant "pumpkins") while cushaws are C. mixta.

--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"Yes, swooping is bad."

email valid but not regularly monitored

Billy wrote:

In article ,
David Hare-Scott wrote:

On Fri, 27 May 2011 21:35:28 -0400, "Steve Peek"
wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
.. .
David Hare-Scott wrote:

In another thread a ref was given:

Wiki also says "In Australian English, the name 'pumpkin' generally
refers to the broader category called winter squash in North America."

I had heard that before but didn't want to confuse things even more.
it looks like I need to sort it out.



But then where do the candyroasters and cushaws fit in?



I have no idea please elucidate.

D

`Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe:
All mimsy were the borogoves,
And the mome raths outgrabe.

"Beware the Jabberwock, my son!
The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!
Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun
The frumious Bandersnatch!"

I don't understand 90% of that- but I think Billy nailed it.

I'm surprised that I can't find a site with all [or even a few] the
subspecies of cucurbita listed with their proper names.

The 2 Steve listed are a Cucurbita maxima, and Cucurbita mixta, but
C.m. -- ?what?- Linnaeus went through all that trouble to
categorize stuff, and now we're too busy trying to call something what
people will buy and not enough keeping them in their proper place so
all of us folks who speak different languages [USAian, Australian,
English, etc] can understand each other.

BTW- The 'Blue Australian Pumpkin' is listed as a Morcheta- so that's
3 categories of Cucurbita represented so far. [the cushaw is known as
a pumpkin in some places-- so mixta is spoken for too, sort of]

Jim

In article ,
Jim Elbrecht wrote:

I'm surprised that I can't find a site with all [or even a few] the
subspecies of cucurbita listed with their proper names.

http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs...taxon.pl?12606

--
Bill S. Jersey USA zone 5 shade garden

"The best fertilizer is the gardener's shadow." - Anon

http://patrickmurfin.livejournal.com/

On 5/27/2011 10:02 PM, David Hare-Scott wrote:
On Fri, 27 May 2011 21:35:28 -0400, "Steve
wrote:


"Jim wrote in message
...
David wrote:

In another thread a ref was given:

Wiki also says "In Australian English, the name 'pumpkin' generally
refers to the broader category called winter squash in North America."

I had heard that before but didn't want to confuse things even more.
it looks like I need to sort it out.



But then where do the candyroasters and cushaws fit in?



I have no idea please elucidate.

D

Can't answer your general question but I've grown pumpkins and butternut
squash. I once made a pumpkin pie from butternut squash that was
indistinguishable in taste from a pumpkin pie. Apparently the spices
overwhelm the taste of either type squash.

David Hare-Scott said:


In another thread a ref was given:

Wiki also says "In Australian English, the name 'pumpkin' generally
refers to the broader category called winter squash in North America."

I had heard that before but didn't want to confuse things even more.
it looks like I need to sort it out.

For the record I am in Australia and these are pumpkins in our
dialect:

http://i1086.photobucket.com/albums/j444/HareScott/The%
20garden/AFewPumpkins.jpg

Would these be called winter squash or pumpkin in the US?

Those would be called winter squash in the US, and look to be a
variety of Cucurbita moschata, which species is more commonly
grown in differently shaped (long necked) cultivars known as butternut
squash.

Two things first:

"Summer" and "winter" squash are varities differentiated by when they
are picked to be used. Summer squash are picked and used when
immature and winter squash are picked as mature fruit.

All "pumpkins" are winter squash, but not all winter squash would be
called pumpkins in USA vernacular. Usually what we call a pumpkin is
a winter squash of the species C. pepo thats rounded and orange with
a large seed cavity. But that name is also extended other winter squashes
of the same shape and color.

C. pepo pumpkins:
http://marketcook.files.wordpress.co...0/pumpkins.jpg

Let's get specific. There are four species of squash that I am familiar
with and I have grown cultivars of all of them at one time or another.


I. Cucurbita pepo or pepper squashes.

All of the cultivars grown as summer squash (with very few exceptions)
are in the species C. pepo. Crookneck, zucchini, pattypan, what have
you, they are selected to be eaten while very immature.

This species also includes a number of winter squashes. Orange jack-o'-
lantern and pie pumpkins, acorn squash, delicata and sweet dumpling.

There are also a few colorful, hard-shelled ornamental gourds that are
in this species.

The fruit stems of C. pepo squashes (when mature) are extremely hard
and angular and flare outward at the fruit. The blossom scars are usually
small and smooth.

C. pepo squashes are very susceptible to squash vine borer.

II. Cucurbita maxima

This species, as the specific epithet suggests, provides the biggest of the
winter squashes. Giant pumpkins, hubbard, banana, buttercup and the
Australian Jarrahdale are all C. maxima squashes.

The stems on C. maxima squashes are rounded and somewhat corky
looking and the blossom end might have a small protruding button.

C. maxima squashes are extremely susceptible to squash vine borer.

Certain varieties of C. maxima squash (most particularly those of the
buttercup sort) are known for their high dry matter content and
superb eating quality.

III. Cucurbita moschata

This species is mostly known for the long necked butternut type, but
there are tan- or buckskin-colored rounded varieties that are refered to
as pumpkins or "cheese" types and a few dark green (or "black")
varieties.

The mature stems are extremely hard and angular and flare out at the
fruit. The blossom scars are smooth. When mature, these may be green
with tan spots or streaks, but most typically C. moshata squashes ripen
to a tan or light brown color.

C. moschata is resistant to squash vine borers.

C. moschata squashes are very often grown for processing into canned
pumpkin in the northern US.

IIII. Cucurbit mixta

C. mixta is a also known as the cushaw or neck pumpkin. They generally
have a long, curved neck with a round bulge at the blossom end.

The stem on a mature cushaw is very hard and angular and flare at the
base. The blossom scar is small and smooth.

C. mixta is resistant to squash vine borers.

Cushaws are very popular as processing varieties in the southern US.
They have a long growing season and a great tolerance for hot weather.

I have managed to grow cushaws in my garden, and they are extremely
beautiful squashes. The variety I grew was white with streaks and
splotches of gold, orange, and green.

Now, my favorite winter squash is a hybrid named "Tetsukabuto" which
is a interspecies cross between C. moschata and C. maxima. It has
the resistance to squash vine borers of C. moshata parent and the
high dry matter content and sweetness of the finest C. maxima squashes.

--
Pat in Plymouth MI

"Yes, swooping is bad."

email valid but not regularly monitored

Go to www.rareseeds.com and have a look at their squash/pumpkin section.
They have the largest selection of specimens for sale that I've ever seen.
The cucurbit group crossbreeds very easily. There are hundreds of different
"pumpkins" because the "squashes were one of the earliest vegetables
domesticated. In the book "Lost Crops of the Inca" evidence of "crooknecks"
was noted as far back as 3000BC.

I apologize, David, I was being a bit facetious. We truly are peoples
divided by a common language.

Steve
"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 27 May 2011 21:35:28 -0400, "Steve Peek"
wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
. ..
David Hare-Scott wrote:

In another thread a ref was given:

Wiki also says "In Australian English, the name 'pumpkin' generally
refers to the broader category called winter squash in North America."

I had heard that before but didn't want to confuse things even more.
it looks like I need to sort it out.



But then where do the candyroasters and cushaws fit in?



I have no idea please elucidate.

D

Bill who putters wrote:

In article ,
Jim Elbrecht wrote:

I'm surprised that I can't find a site with all [or even a few] the
subspecies of cucurbita listed with their proper names.

http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs...taxon.pl?12606

Thanks. I didn't see much there-- I think they are saying
"cucurbita pepo L." and the 'L' stand for Linnaeus?

But somehow, from there I ended up here- where I did a search for
pumpkin & voila!
http://www.tropicos.org/NameSearch.a...onname=pumpkin

They've got 9 listed. All Cucurbitaceae, and all but one is a
Cucurbita. The outlier is Benincasa hispida , which among its other
common names "White Pumpkin" [I think I've heard of it as Ash gourd &
Winter Melon.]

The others listed are [Cucurbita] foetidissima, lundelliana, maxima,
moscheta, and pepo. The pepo is the only one that gives a variety
name. [and it happens to be melopepo, which is zuchini, which they say
has the common name of bush pumpkin. Can't say I've ever heard
that.]

Well-- I'm learning a lot of interesting stuff, here, but I don't
think I'm any closer to understanding why we call the things we do,
"Pumpkins".

Jim