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Old 07-07-2011, 09:42 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Miracle gro

In article ,
songbird wrote:

FarmI wrote:
"Derald" wrote in message
m...

Superbly done, Sir or Madame, if one may call you that.


Derald, just WHAT are you on about?


Derald, Gunnar and Billy are on about
each other. they need to get a room.

I give references to support my point of view, whereas Gunny and Dim
seem to think that we should just support thier unsubstantiated
statements.
Putting 2 autocrats in the same room probably isn't a good idea. They
need to be in separate wards.


has anyone grown cloves?


songbird


--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug
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Old 07-07-2011, 09:44 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Miracle gro

In article ,
songbird wrote:

FarmI wrote:
"Derald" wrote in message
m...

Superbly done, Sir or Madame, if one may call you that.


Derald, just WHAT are you on about?


Derald, Gunnar and Billy are on about
each other. they need to get a room.

has anyone grown cloves?


songbird


You have a climate similar to Indonesia?

--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug
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Old 08-07-2011, 04:00 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Miracle gro

"songbird" wrote in message
FarmI wrote:
"Derald" wrote in message
m...

Superbly done, Sir or Madame, if one may call you that.


Derald, just WHAT are you on about?


Derald, Gunnar and Billy are on about
each other. they need to get a room.


How do you know? Derald leaves nothing in from previous posts so may as
well be talking to him/herself in a sound proofed room.

has anyone grown cloves?


The spice? Sorry, I don't live in a tropical area.


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Old 08-07-2011, 07:45 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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FarmI wrote:
songbird wrote:
FarmI wrote:
Derald wrote:

Superbly done, Sir or Madame, if one may call you that.

Derald, just WHAT are you on about?


Derald, Gunnar and Billy are on about
each other. they need to get a room.


How do you know?


when they use each other's names in
flinging abuse back and forth that kinda
gives it away.

but, anyways, it's not important
overall, just a comment on local color
so to speak.


Derald leaves nothing in from previous posts so may as
well be talking to him/herself in a sound proofed room.


at times, other times not.


has anyone grown cloves?


The spice? Sorry, I don't live in a tropical area.


ok, thanks.


songbird
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:05 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Miracle gro

On Jul 7, 7:00*pm, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given trying to get her
shit together wrote:
"songbird" wrote in message
FarmI wrote:
"Derald" wrote in message
news:KpmdnXAoLuitcInTnZ2dnUVZ_ridnZ2d@earthlink. com...


Superbly done, Sir or Madame, if one may call you that.


Derald, just WHAT are you on about?


*Derald, Gunnar and Billy are on about
each other. *they need to get a room.


How do you know? *Derald leaves nothing in from previous posts so may as
well be talking to him/herself in a sound proofed room.

*has anyone grown cloves?


The spice? *Sorry, I don't live in a tropical area.


Catch up Farmnal, YOU are now mixing your posts!


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Old 08-07-2011, 08:17 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Miracle gro

On Jul 7, 12:42*pm, Billy nostalgic about his
fifth grade crossing guard good citizen oath wrote:.

I give references to support my point of view, whereas ....wha, wha, wha. Teacher... their being mean to me again!


The answer is Still YES it is OK!!!!!!!!


(Pure 60s communist propaganda BS snipped)
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Old 08-07-2011, 08:21 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Miracle gro

On Jul 6, 10:19*pm, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:


*Do you expect us to all just sit
here at our computers and play guessing games about what you are thinking?


and yet....... ( wait for it)........ you doooooooo!

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Old 08-07-2011, 08:23 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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On Jul 6, 10:14*pm, "FarmI" ask@itshall be given wrote:
hoping to help "Billy" wrote in message


Lame, really lame

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Old 08-07-2011, 09:36 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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On Jul 6, 11:22*am, songbird wrote:
FarmI wrote:
Billy wrote:


Instead of responding to Gunny's disingenuous prevarications, or his
chronic cranial-rectal inversion, let me simply quote the following,


Why bother Billy. *I've found my killfile has an infinite capacity despite
the efforts of the trolls to try to repeatedly escape.


* for humor value alone, it was worth reading
the rant about blindly selling something when
the replies that said to read up on things, to
use organic materials/mulches (which often are
freely available), etc.

* yeah, that's blindly selling something compared
to going out and buying Miracle Gro, Osmacote and
$15 soil tests. *all things that gardeners didn't
need for thousands of years...

* gotta laugh,

* songbird


Wow birdie! I had you pegged at no more than a day over 800 years
old. You old Shamanistas are amazing, but ya gotta get out more and
see how the real world has developed since you was a young girl. No
one going to go back to get you folks left behind, so keep up.
"Nothing is... because everything is becoming"

Your objection here (or the pretense) appears to be cost? Is that
correct? You do not see the value in a soil test or buying fertilizer
when you can get it free, Is that your argument? You do not appear to
be pulling a billy trying to use faux google references to falsely
"imply" Miracle GroG kills soil. We all know that is a grossly
exagerrated lie. Nute salts are the same regardless. Ya just can't
change science and really, emperical data is so much more accurate
than your ilk's taste test method.

As for being free everything has a cost.

Keep burning that wood birdie, love how that saves the environment!

Joining in the laughter!!
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Old 08-07-2011, 05:23 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Miracle gro

Gunner wrote:
....
Wow birdie! I had you pegged at no more than a day over 800 years
old. You old Shamanistas are amazing, but ya gotta get out more and
see how the real world has developed since you was a young girl. No
one going to go back to get you folks left behind, so keep up.
"Nothing is... because everything is becoming"


the real world development i see is to a
large part: ignorant, greedy, poisonous or
destructive to many creatures.

you'd like me to keep up with that?

there is some hope yet, but it is a
long ways to go.


Your objection here (or the pretense) appears to be cost? Is that
correct?


my objection is that the OP stated they were
a new gardener. which means very likely that they
were using a new space. any long time gardener
knows that new soil is often just fine for the
first season and needs no additional nutrients
added to it. short of obvious signs of deficit
(the OP stated none) why add fertilizer? because
we've been raised with cereal in the box and
milk out of the bottle doesn't mean that nutritional
value comes from boxes and bottles.

so instead of saying "yeah, go ahead dump
dilute liquid fertilizers on your garden it
won't hurt a thing." i recommended the OP do
some reading and learn about what they are
doing before adding anything to the soil, and
i pointed them towards organic methods because
they have less chance of being a runoff
pollutant problem and a better chance of
actually nurturing the soil organisms and
maintaining or improving nutrients in the soil
and thus the produce grown therein.

is that clear?

you were the one who came up with the
"selling something" language and i had to
laugh because you were the seller of more
products than i.


You do not see the value in a soil test or buying fertilizer
when you can get it free, Is that your argument?


i do not see the value in getting a soil test
if there are no signs of deficit.

instead recommending the OP get some books
on gardening and reading up on soil will give
them much more for their future efforts than
what they can get by dumping gunk out of a
bottle.

there are many good descriptions of both
fertile soil (and how to evaluate the soil
condition) and various deficits. no tests
other than observation are needed. relying
upon a soil test to tell what the soil
is doing is like using butt probe to tell
what the brain is doing.


You do not appear to
be pulling a billy trying to use faux google references to falsely
"imply" Miracle GroG kills soil.


no i do not have to imply that at all if
i tell the OP to not dump it at all then i've
helped them avoid the problems it can cause.


We all know that is a grossly
exagerrated lie. Nute salts are the same regardless. Ya just can't
change science and really, emperical data is so much more accurate
than your ilk's taste test method.


if by emperical data you mean millions of
acres of destroyed top soil then you've got
all the evidence you need from dumping "Nute
salts" (whatever those are).


As for being free everything has a cost.

Keep burning that wood birdie, love how that saves the environment!


i dunno how much more burning i'll be doing,
but talking about the carbon cycle from the
rotting of organic materials in the compost
pile (or buried in the ground) and comparing
that to what happens to the carbon when you
make charcoal and the various soil nutrition
aspects of that is probably a much more
scientific process than telling someone "ok,
dump that on the soil".

but whatever.


Joining in the laughter!!


yuk yuk.


songbird


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Old 08-07-2011, 06:19 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Miracle gro

FarmI wrote:
"songbird" wrote:

has anyone grown cloves?


The spice? Sorry, I don't live in a tropical area.


When I lived in Los Angeles metro I saw a peppercorn bush at a farmers
market. Even there it was for indoors. You'd need a hot house to grow
a clove plant almost anywhere in the temperate zones.
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Old 08-07-2011, 07:55 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Miracle gro

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Welcome, to Gunny's world, songbird. No facts, no references, but lots
of pronouncements and innuendo. Enjoy it, if you can.

Gunny enjoys arguments. In part he tries to do this by starting as many
arguments as possible, and as you nail him down on one, he will ignore
it, and attack a different argument (personal experience). Now, you may
feel like some light hearted bantering, but, trust me, he will take it
as a personal challenge to crush you. Personally, I think he is a
"tweaker", but that is an unsubstantiated opinion.

Gunner wrote:
...
Wow birdie! I had you pegged at no more than a day over 800 years
old. You old Shamanistas are amazing, but ya gotta get out more and
see how the real world has developed since you was a young girl. No
one going to go back to get you folks left behind, so keep up.
"Nothing is... because everything is becoming"


Is there any gardening in the above paragraph? If it was me, I would
have told you where you were wrong, and given references to support my
position, but not Gunny. Here he mocks, characterizes (without
substantiating the characterization), and patronizes you in order to
pretend that he is your superior (also no evidence submitted).

the real world development i see is to a
large part: ignorant, greedy, poisonous or
destructive to many creatures.

you'd like me to keep up with that?

there is some hope yet, but it is a
long ways to go.


Your objection here (or the pretense) appears to be cost? Is that
correct?

Here Gunny questions your motives. Has anyone in this newsgroup, other
than Gunny, ever questioned your motives before? More over, he is trying
to put words in your mouth, to the effect that your objection to
chemferts is based on cost.


my objection is that the OP stated they were
a new gardener. which means very likely that they
were using a new space. any long time gardener
knows that new soil is often just fine for the
first season and needs no additional nutrients
added to it. short of obvious signs of deficit
(the OP stated none) why add fertilizer? because
we've been raised with cereal in the box and
milk out of the bottle doesn't mean that nutritional
value comes from boxes and bottles.

so instead of saying "yeah, go ahead dump
dilute liquid fertilizers on your garden it
won't hurt a thing." i recommended the OP do
some reading and learn about what they are
doing before adding anything to the soil, and
i pointed them towards organic methods because
they have less chance of being a runoff
pollutant problem and a better chance of
actually nurturing the soil organisms and
maintaining or improving nutrients in the soil
and thus the produce grown therein.

is that clear?

you were the one who came up with the
"selling something" language and i had to
laugh because you were the seller of more
products than i.


You do not see the value in a soil test or buying fertilizer
when you can get it free, Is that your argument?

Gunny again trying to put words in your mouth, attempting to bring a
discussion to the level of an argument.

i do not see the value in getting a soil test
if there are no signs of deficit.

instead recommending the OP get some books
on gardening and reading up on soil will give
them much more for their future efforts than
what they can get by dumping gunk out of a
bottle.

there are many good descriptions of both
fertile soil (and how to evaluate the soil
condition) and various deficits. no tests
other than observation are needed. relying
upon a soil test to tell what the soil
is doing is like using butt probe to tell
what the brain is doing.


You do not appear to
be pulling a billy trying to use faux google references to falsely
"imply" Miracle GroG kills soil.

I'll take this one, songbird.

Gunny, give an example of a faux google reference that I have given,
please, or continue to show yourself as an idiot.

Now, as far as implying that chemferts kill soil life, I don't imply, I
quote experts.

Teaming with Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web
Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis
http://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microb...l/dp/088192777
5/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206815176&sr= 1-1
(Available at a library near you.)

Chapter 1

What Is the Soil Food Web and Why Should Gardeners Care?

Negative impacts on the soil food web

Chemical fertilizers negatively impact the soil food web by killing off
entire portions of it. What gardener hasn't seen what table salt does to
a slug? Fertilizers are salts; they suck the water out of the bacteria,
fungi, protozoa, and nematodes in the soil. Since these microbes are at
the very foundation of the soil food web nutrient system, you have to
keep adding fertilizer once you start using it regularly. The
microbiology is missing and not there to do its job, feeding the plants.

It makes sense that once the bacteria, fungi, nematodes, and protozoa
are gone, other members of the food web disappear as well. Earthworms,
for example, lacking food and irritated by the synthetic nitrates in
soluble nitrogen fertilizers, move out. Since they are major shredders
of organic material, their absence is a great loss. Without the activity
and diversity of a healthy food web, you not only impact the nutrient
system but all the other things a healthy soil food web brings. Soil
structure deteriorates, watering can become problematic," pathogens and
pests establish themselves and, worst of all, gardening becomes a lot
more work than it needs to be. . .

Plants are in control

Most gardeners think of plants as only taking up nutrients through root
systems and feeding the leaves. Few realize that a great deal of the
energy that results from photosynthesis in the leaves is actually used
by plants to produce chemicals they secrete through their roots. These
secretions are known as exudates. A good analogy is perspiration, a
human's exudate.

Root exudates are in the form of carbohydrates (including sugars) and
proteins. Amazingly, their presence wakes up, attracts, and grows
specific beneficial bacteria and fungi living in the soil that subsist
on these exudates and the cellular material sloughed off as the plant's
root tips grow. All this secretion of exudates and sloughing-off of
cells takes place in the rhizosphere, a zone immediately around the
roots, extending out about a tenth of an inch, or a couple of
millimeters (1 millimeter = 1/25 inch). The rhizosphere, which can look
like a jelly or jam under the electron microscope, contains a constantly
changing mix of soil organisms, including bacteria, fungi, nematodes,
protozoa, and even larger organisms. All this ³life" competes for the
exudates in the rhizosphere, or its water or mineral content.

At the bottom of the soil food web are bacteria and fungi, which are
attracted to and consume plant root exudates. In turn, they attract and
are eaten by bigger microbes, specifically nematodes and protozoa
(remember the amoebae, paramecia, flagellates, and ciliates you should
have studied in biology?), who eat bacteria and fungi (primarily for
carbon) to fuel their metabolic functions. Anything they don't need is
excreted as wastes, which plant roots are readily able to absorb as
nutrients. How convenient that this production of plant nutrients takes
place right in the rhizosphere, the site of root-nutrient absorption.

At the center of any viable soil food web are plants. Plants control the
food web for their own benefit, an amazing fact that is too little
understood and surely not appreciated by gardeners who are constantly
interfering with Nature's system. Studies indicate that individual
plants can control the numbers and the different kinds of fungi and
bacteria attracted to the rhizosphere by the exudates they produce.
During different times of the growing season, populations of rhizosphere
bacteria and fungi wax and wane, depending on the nutrient needs of the
plant and the exudates it produces.

Soil bacteria and fungi are like small bags of fertilizer, retaining in
their bodies nitrogen and other nutrients they gain from root exudates
and other organic matter (such as those sloughed-off root-tip cells).
Carrying on the analogy, soil protozoa and nematodes act as ³fertilizer
spreaders" by releasing , the nutrients locked up in the bacteria and
fungi ³fertilizer bags." The nematodes and protozoa in the soil come
along and eat the bacteria and fungi in the, rhizosphere. They digest
what they need to survive and excrete excess carbon and other nutrients
as waste.

Left to their own devices, then, plants produce exudates that attract
fungi and bacteria (and, ultimately, nematodes and protozoa); their
survival depends on the interplay between these microbes. It is a
completely natural system, the very same one that has fueled plants
since they evolved. Soil life provides the nutrients needed for plant
life, and plants initiate and fuel the cycle by producing exudates. . .

.. . . Soil life produces soil nutrients

When any member of a soil food web dies, it becomes fodder for other
members of the community. The nutrients in these bodies are passed on to
other members of the community. A larger predator may eat them alive, or
they may be decayed after they die. One way or the other, fungi and
bacteria get involved, be it decaying the organism directly or working
on the dung of the successful
eater. It makes no difference. Nutrients are preserved and eventually
are retained in the bodies of even the smallest fungi and bacteria. When
these are in the rhizosphere, they release nutrients in plant-available
form when they, in turn, are consumed or die.

Without this system, most important nutrients would drain from soil.
Instead, they are retained in the bodies of soil life. Here is the
gardener's truth: when you apply a chemical fertilizer, a tiny bit hits
the rhizosphere, where it is absorbed, but most of it continues to drain
through soil until it hits the water table. Not so with the nutrients
locked up inside soil organisms, a state known as immobilization; these
nutrients are eventually released as wastes, or mineralized. And when
the plants themselves die and are allowed to decay, the nutrients they
retained are again immobilized in the fungi and bacteria that consume
them.

The nutrient supply in the soil is influenced by soil life in other
ways. For example, worms pull organic matter into the soil, where it is
shredded by beetles and the larvae of other insects, opening it up for
fungal and bacterial decay. This worm activity provides yet more
nutrients for the soil community.

Gaia's Garden, Second Edition: A Guide To Home-Scale Permaculture
(Paperback)
by Toby Hemenway
http://www.amazon.com/Gaias-Garden-S...culture/dp/160
3580298/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271266976&sr=1-1
(Available at a library near you.)

A chemical view of humus, studded with negatively charged oxygen atoms.
Positively charged nutrients such as ammonium, potassium, copper,
magnesium, calcium, and zinc are adsorbed to the humus. These nutrients
can be pulled off the humus and used by plants and microbes.

p.78
ammonium (a nitrogen compound), copper, zinc, manganese, and many
others. Under the right conditions (in soil with a pH near 7, that is,
neither too acid nor too alkaline), humus can pick up and
store enormous quantities of positively charged nutrients.

How do these nutrients move from the humus to plants? Plant roots, as
noted, secrete very mild acids which break the bonds that hold the
nutrients onto the humus. The nutrients from humus are washed into the
soil moisture, creating a rich soup. Bathed in this nutritious broth,
the plants can absorb as much calcium, ammonium, or other nutrient as
they need. There's evidence to suggest that when plants have supped long
enough, they stop the flow of acid to avoid depleting the humus.

That's the direct method plants use to pull nutrients from humus. Just
as common in healthy soil is an indirect route, in which microbes are
the middlemen. This type of plant feeding involves an exchange. Roots
secrete sugars and vitamins that are ideal food for beneficial bacteria
and fungi. These microbes thrive in huge numbers close to roots and even
attach to them, lapping up the plant-made food and bathing in the film
of moisture that surrounds the roots. In return, the microbes produce
acids and enzymes that release the humus-bound nutrients and share this
food with the plants.

Microbes also excrete food for plants in their waste. One more big plus
for plants is that many of the fungi and other microbes secrete
antibiotics that protect the plants from disease. All of these mutual
exchanges create a truly symbiotic relationship. Many plants have become
dependent on particular species of microbial partners and grow poorly
without them. Even when the plant-microbe partnership isn't this
specific, plants often grow much faster when microbes are present than
they do in a sterile or microbe-depleted environment.

p.79
Conventional wisdom has it that plant root are the main imbibers of soil
minerals and that plants can only absorb these minerals (fertilizers) if
they are in a water-soluble form, but neither premise is true. Roots
occupy only a tiny fraction of the soil, so most soil minerals‹and most
chemical fertilizers‹never make direct contact with roots. Unless these
isolated, lonely minerals are snapped up by humus or soil organisms,
they leach away. It's the humus and the life in the soil that keep the
earth fertile by holding on to nutrients that would otherwise wash out
of the soil into streams, lakes, and eventually the ocean.

Agricultural chemists have missed the boat with their soluble
fertilizers; they're doing things the hard way by using an engineering
approach rather than an ecological one. Yes, plants are quite capable
of absorbing the water-soluble minerals in chemical fertilizer. But
plants often use only 10 percent of the fertilizer that's applied and
rarely more than 50 percent. The rest washes into the groundwater,
which is why so many wells in our farmlands are polluted with toxic
levels of nitrates.

Applying fertilizer the way nature does‹tied to organic matter‹uses far
less fertilizer and also saves the energy consumed in producing,
shipping and applying it. It also supports a broad assortment of soil
life, which widens the base of our living pyramid and enhances rather
than reduces biodiversity. In addition, plants get a balanced diet
instead of being force-fed and are healthier. It's well documented that
plants grown on soil rich in organic matter are more disease- and
insect-resistant than plants in carbon-poor soil.

In short, a properly tuned ecological garden rarely needs soluble
fertilizers because plants and soil animals can knock nutrients loose
from humus and organic debris (or clay, another nutrient storage
source) using secretions of mild acid and enzymes. Most of the nutrients
in healthy soil are "insoluble yet available," in the words of soil
scientist William Albrecht. These nutrients, bound to organic matter or
cycling among fast-living microbes,won't' wash out of the soil yet can
be gently coaxed loose ‹ or traded for sugar secretions‹ by roots. And
the plants take up only what they need. This turns out to be very
little, since plants are 85 percent water, and much of the rest is
carbon from the air. A fat half-pound tomato, for example, only draws
about 50 milligrams of phosphorus and 500 milligrams of potassium from
the soil. That's easy to replace in a humus-rich garden that uses
mulches, composts, and nutrient-accumulating plants.
----

Lab tests may tell you where you are starting, but a properly maintained
garden will take you where you want to go.

They did throw you a bone, Gunny-boy: a properly tuned ecological garden
rarely needs soluble fertilizers. That implies that there may be, on the
rare occasion, a place for chemferts.
QED

Meanwhile, back at the ranch.


no i do not have to imply that at all if
i tell the OP to not dump it at all then i've
helped them avoid the problems it can cause.


We all know that is a grossly
exagerrated lie. Nute salts are the same regardless. Ya just can't
change science and really, emperical data is so much more accurate
than your ilk's taste test method.


Classic Gunny. Do you still beat your wife, Gunny?
No attempt to show that the statement is a lie, just a simple
unsubstantiated declaration that Gunny knows best.

As far as the nutrients from chemferts, and organic fertilizer being
equivalent, Gunny is WRONG. Nitrate is nitrate to be sure, but one
nitrate comes from a salt (that's bad, as you will know if you read the
above), and the other comes from organic material. Just another example
of Gunny-boy's ignorance, or another of his disingenuous prevarications.

Are you an ilk, songbird? Do you have a taste test?
Gunny-boy again makes accusations without substantiation.



if by emperical data you mean millions of
acres of destroyed top soil then you've got
all the evidence you need from dumping "Nute
salts" (whatever those are).


As for being free everything has a cost.

King of the bleeding obvious, Gunny-boy is.

Keep burning that wood birdie, love how that saves the environment!


i dunno how much more burning i'll be doing,
but talking about the carbon cycle from the
rotting of organic materials in the compost
pile (or buried in the ground) and comparing
that to what happens to the carbon when you
make charcoal and the various soil nutrition
aspects of that is probably a much more
scientific process than telling someone "ok,
dump that on the soil".

but whatever.


Not to mention the release into the environment of carbon that had been
long sequestered (gas and oil), instead of cycling the present carbon.
Three hundred and fifty parts per million of CO2 is considered safe, and
we are presently at 390 ppm CO2. As St Molly said, "When you find
yourself in a hole, stop digging."


Joining in the laughter!!


yuk yuk.


Why not? It's Gunny-boy, who is the joke ;O)

Bottom line, Gunny isn't interested at arriving at an understanding.
He, for some reason, wants an argument for arguments sake.


songbird

--
- Billy

Mad dog Republicans to the right. Democratic spider webs to the left. True conservatives, and liberals not to be found anywhere in the phantasmagoria
of the American political landscape.

America is not broke. The country is awash in wealth and cash.
It's just that it's not in your hands. It has been transferred, in the
greatest heist in history, from the workers and consumers to the banks
and the portfolios of the uber-rich.
http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/.../michael-moore
/michael-moore-says-400-americans-have-more-wealth-/
  #28   Report Post  
Old 09-07-2011, 01:51 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 330
Default Miracle gro

On Jul 8, 10:55*am, Billy cut and pasted
enough of his BS qutoa for the entire month:

Hhey Dr Google, I don't want ya to waste this really good rant ya got
going on but Really the answer is still yes, it is ok to use
  #29   Report Post  
Old 09-07-2011, 01:53 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Sep 2010
Posts: 330
Default Miracle gro

On Jul 8, 8:23*am, songbird wrote:
Gunner wrote:

...

Wow birdie! *I had you pegged at no more than a day over 800 years
old. You old Shamanistas are amazing, but ya gotta get out more and
see how the real world has developed since you was a young girl. *No
one going to go back to get you folks left behind, so keep up.
"Nothing is... because everything is becoming"


* the real world development i see is to a
large part: ignorant, greedy, poisonous or
destructive to many creatures.

* you'd like me to keep up with that?

* there is some hope yet, but it is a
long ways to go.

Your objection here (or the pretense) appears to be cost? Is that
correct?


* my objection is that the OP stated they were
a new gardener. *which means very likely that they
were using a new space. *any long time gardener
knows that new soil is often just fine for the
first season and needs no additional nutrients
added to it. *short of obvious signs of deficit
(the OP stated none) why add fertilizer? *because
we've been raised with cereal in the box and
milk out of the bottle doesn't mean that nutritional
value comes from boxes and bottles.

* so instead of saying "yeah, go ahead dump
dilute liquid fertilizers on your garden it
won't hurt a thing." i recommended the OP do
some reading and learn about what they are
doing before adding anything to the soil, and
i pointed them towards organic methods because
they have less chance of being a runoff
pollutant problem and a better chance of
actually nurturing the soil organisms and
maintaining or improving nutrients in the soil
and thus the produce grown therein.

* is that clear?

* you were the one who came up with the
"selling something" language and i had to
laugh because you were the seller of more
products than i.

*You do not see the value in a soil test or buying fertilizer
when you can get it free, Is that your argument?


* i do not see the value in getting a soil test
if there are no signs of deficit.

* instead recommending the OP get some books
on gardening and reading up on soil will give
them much more for their future efforts than
what they can get by dumping gunk out of a
bottle.

* there are many good descriptions of both
fertile soil (and how to evaluate the soil
condition) and various deficits. *no tests
other than observation are needed. *relying
upon a soil test to tell what the soil
is doing is like using butt probe to tell
what the brain is doing.

*You do not appear to
be pulling a billy trying to use faux google references to falsely
"imply" Miracle GroG kills soil.


* no i do not have to imply that at all if
i tell the OP to not dump it at all then i've
helped them avoid the problems it can cause.

*We all know that is a grossly
exagerrated lie. Nute salts are the same regardless. Ya just can't
change science and really, *emperical data is so much more accurate
than your ilk's taste test method.


* if by emperical data you mean millions of
acres of destroyed top soil then you've got
all the evidence you need from dumping "Nute
salts" (whatever those are).

*As for being free everything has a cost.


Keep burning that wood birdie, love how that saves the environment!


* i dunno how much more burning i'll be doing,
but talking about the carbon cycle from the
rotting of organic materials in the compost
pile (or buried in the ground) and comparing
that to what happens to the carbon when you
make charcoal and the various soil nutrition
aspects of that is probably a much more
scientific process than telling someone "ok,
dump that on the soil".

* but whatever.

Joining in the laughter!!


* yuk yuk.

* songbird


  #30   Report Post  
Old 09-07-2011, 02:18 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Mar 2010
Posts: 2,438
Default Miracle gro

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Gunner wrote:
...
Wow birdie! I had you pegged at no more than a day over 800 years
old. You old Shamanistas are amazing, but ya gotta get out more and
see how the real world has developed since you was a young girl. No
one going to go back to get you folks left behind, so keep up.
"Nothing is... because everything is becoming"


the real world development i see is to a
large part: ignorant, greedy, poisonous or
destructive to many creatures.

you'd like me to keep up with that?

there is some hope yet, but it is a
long ways to go.


Your objection here (or the pretense) appears to be cost? Is that
correct?


my objection is that the OP stated they were
a new gardener. which means very likely that they
were using a new space. any long time gardener
knows that new soil is often just fine for the
first season and needs no additional nutrients
added to it. short of obvious signs of deficit
(the OP stated none) why add fertilizer? because
we've been raised with cereal in the box and
milk out of the bottle doesn't mean that nutritional
value comes from boxes and bottles.

so instead of saying "yeah, go ahead dump
dilute liquid fertilizers on your garden it
won't hurt a thing." i recommended the OP do
some reading and learn about what they are
doing before adding anything to the soil, and
i pointed them towards organic methods because
they have less chance of being a runoff
pollutant problem and a better chance of
actually nurturing the soil organisms and
maintaining or improving nutrients in the soil
and thus the produce grown therein.

is that clear?


Score one for the Shamanista songbird.

State of the World 2011: Innovations That Nourish the Planet: A
Worldwatch Institute Report on Progress Toward a Sustainable Society
(Paperback - Jan 2011)
http://www.amazon.com/State-World-20...able/dp/184971
3529/ref=sr_1_33?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310168545&sr=1-33
(At a library near you, until they close)

p 8
If seeds represent the short-term payoff
option, the truly long-term investment with big
returns is investing in the soil and water that
nourish crops. In Mali and other parts of the
African Sahel, soils are severely damaged from
overgrazing and drought, but the use of green
manure and cover crops can dramatically
improve soil fertility without the use of expensive
fertilizers. . . . [Roland] Bunch notes that
subsidizing chemical fertilizers, which some
African nations are doing heavily (by up to 75
percent in Malawi, for example), has generally
not been a good long-term strategy and actu-
ally reduces farmers' incentive to invest in
more agroecological approaches to nourishing
soils. When the fertilizer subsidies end, pro-
ductivity will drop to virtually nothing. Instead,
Bunch maintains that green manure/cover
crops are the only sustainable solution to
Africa's soil fertility crisis.12

--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug
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