you said BS when i said we'd get 200-
600lbs of fruit out of our patches. 26
plants total, 24 beefsteak and 2 sweet
100s.

we are at 103 qts of canned tomatoes
or canned tomato juice so far.

at 7qts per bucket and each bucket
coming in around 22lbs of fruit that
total is about 15 buckets or 330lbs of
fruit.

this does not count what we have
eaten or given away. add about another
100-150lbs for those.

and we are still seeing plenty of
fruit on the vines and the weather looks
to be cooperating. another four to five
days and we'll have about 4 more buckets.
after that it will be hit or miss as the
weather cools and sun fades even more.
i'm probably not even going to bother
with the green ones that will be left.
they make good worm food for the next
year and whatever we'll put in those
patches.

peace,


songbird

On Sep 3, 5:31*pm, songbird wrote:
* you said BS when i said we'd get 200-
600lbs of fruit out of our patches. *26
plants total, 24 beefsteak and 2 sweet
100s.

* we are at 103 qts of canned tomatoes
or canned tomato juice so far.

* at 7qts per bucket and each bucket
coming in around 22lbs of fruit that
total is about 15 buckets or 330lbs of
fruit.

* this does not count what we have
eaten or given away. *add about another
100-150lbs for those.

* and we are still seeing plenty of
fruit on the vines and the weather looks
to be cooperating. *another four to five
days and we'll have about 4 more buckets.
after that it will be hit or miss as the
weather cools and sun fades even more.
i'm probably not even going to bother
with the green ones that will be left.
they make good worm food for the next
year and whatever we'll put in those
patches.

* peace,

* songbird

Outstanding Birds!

Mine are not coming in as fast as the weather was very cool and wet
this year, still have some flowers on the Stripies and purples. Day
& night weather tomato good for the next 10 days though. Should be for
the next 30 as well. Cherries have been going like gang busters esp
the Orange. Made a great little roasted vine cluster Caprisan salad
with the Red Cherries and my globe Basil on a toasted Tuscan bread a
bit of garlic and EVOO. Almost orgasmic! In retrospect should have
stayed with day long lighting though. Too cool to school I guess. I
was hoping you organo farmers actually had an edge but no such luck
in the PNW. Light and temps are still the key up here.

Bit unusual to have pulled in 10 # per #5 pro container of Anchos
though in such a short season up here. Ancho/Pasilla is my fav. We
will see what my winter crop of fresh tomatoes is, along with the
fresh mesclun, Rains move back in around duck season. Should harvest
the salad stuff every 30-35 days . not much light need there. You
really should consider extending your season on some of your crops.
Granted canned is good for sauces but fresh is oh so good. But hey
if your on the homestead cycle good for you. Hopefully your next
years crop is as good!

best to you and the other bird.

On Sep 3, 11:52*pm, Gunner wrote:
On Sep 3, 5:31*pm, songbird wrote:

* you said BS when i said we'd get 200-
600lbs of fruit out of our patches. *26
plants total, 24 beefsteak and 2 sweet
100s.

Oh yea, a little addendum just for giggles and grins:

http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/mg.../tomatoes.html

Approximate yields: 15 to 45 pounds per 10-foot row.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7242813_ma...ne-plant_.html

Average Yield
The average tomato plant produces just five pounds of tomatoes,
according to the University of Missouri Extension. However, you may
attain yields as high as 20 pounds per plant if you provide proper
care for your plants.
so:

low end : 5 x 26 = 130
high end: 20 x 26 =520

You are saying you got 500+ #s, from 26 plants w/ more to come and
no waste! Wow! But still Bird , the Missouri thing comes out and ya
cannot show me that your not being a bit too enthusiastic with your
numbers. It is human nature after all especially when called out on a
public forum. So don't take it too personal, but seriously folks
tend to inflate for ego.... just look at billy.... so a grain of salt
and such.

Still good on ya. Lets see what the next few months bring ya. I'll
still be growing.

Canned toms are a buck ten for a 28 oz these days up here. Hot house
vines are 2.29-2.99 a # and they are from the PNW, not CA., Fla. AZ,
nor Mexico.

BTW do you ever read market reports? may not mean anything to you but
it is a good gauge for your efforts:
http://produceone.com/markets/

Prices represent open (spot) market sales by first handlers on product
of generally good quality and condition unless otherwise stated and
may include promotional allowances or other incentives. No
consideration is given to after-sale adjustments unless otherwise
stated. Brokerage fees paid by the shipper are included in the price
reported.

CENTRAL DISTRICT CALIFORNIA : TOMATOES Demand: GOOD. Market:
STEADY. Basis of Sale: Sales F.O.B. Shipping Point and/or Delivered
Sales, Shipping Point Basis Comment: Extra services included.
CENTRAL DISTRICT CALIFORNIA : TOMATOES Package: 25 lb cartons
loose Variety: MATURE GREENS
Reporting City: PHOENIX, AZ
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 9.95 - 9.95 - 2011 xlge few
11.95
09/02/2011 9.95 - 9.95 - 2011 lge few
11.95
09/02/2011 8.95 - 9.95 - 2011 med few
10.95

EASTERN SHORE VIRGINIA : TOMATOES Basis of Sale: Sales F.O.B. Shipping
Point and Delivered Sales Shipping Point BasisComments: SUPPLIES
INSUFFICIENT TO ESTABLISH MARKET.

MICHIGAN : TOMATOES Demand: GOOD. Market: STEADY. Basis of Sale:
Sales F.O.B. Shipping Point and/or Delivered Sales, Shipping Point
Basis
MICHIGAN : TOMATOES Package: 25 lb cartons loose Variety: VINE
RIPES
Reporting City: BENTON HARBOR, MI
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 13.95 - 15.35 13.95 - 14.35 2011 5x5 sz
occas higher
09/02/2011 12.00 - 14.35 12.00 - 13.95 2011 5x6 sz
occas higher
09/02/2011 12.00 - 14.35 12.00 - 13.95 2011 6x6 sz
occas higher

MICHIGAN : TOMATOES Package: cartons 2 layer Variety: VINE
RIPES
Reporting City: BENTON HARBOR, MI
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 12.00 - 15.95 12.85 - 14.35 2011 4x5s
occas higher
09/02/2011 12.00 - 15.95 12.85 - 14.35 2011 5x5s
occas higher

SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA COAST AND MEXICO CROSSINGS THROUGH OTAY MESA :
TOMATOES Demand: GOOD. Market: 4X4-4X5S HIGHER, OTHERS ABOUT
STEADY. Basis of Sale: Sales F.O.B. Shipping Point and/or Delivered
Sales, Shipping Point Basis Supply: VERY LIGHT. Comment: Extra
services included.
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA COAST AND MEXICO CROSSINGS THROUGH OTAY MESA :
TOMATOES Package: cartons/flats 2 layer Variety: VINE RIPES
Reporting City: PHOENIX, AZ
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 10.95 - 12.95 - 2011 4x4s Greenhouse
09/02/2011 10.95 - 12.95 - 2011 4x5s Greenhouse
09/02/2011 10.95 - 10.95 - 2011 5x5s Greenhouse
09/02/2011 10.95 - 10.95 - 2011 5x6s Greenhouse

WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA : TOMATOES Demand: FAIRLY GOOD. Market: ABOUT
STEADY. Basis of Sale: Sales F.O.B. Shipping Point and/or Delivered
Sales, Shipping Point Basis
WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA : TOMATOES Package: 25 lb cartons loose
Variety: VINE RIPES Grade: U.S. Comb or Better
Reporting City: ASHEVILLE, NC
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 12.00 - 13.95 13.95 - 13.95 2011 jbo
09/02/2011 12.00 - 13.95 13.95 - 13.95 2011 xlge


so ~180- 200$ to 300$ wholesale for your efforts is a more realistic
figure. Nice little backyard project.


Do check these out, bit old but they are a pretty good standard that
can be verified, not that I do not trust your figures but i do not
think you truly understand the macro view in your zeal to have folks
buy into the organo billy world. Know there are pros and cons to
all, just don't try to tell me you have a one size fits all like
billy pretends. OK? That is really stupid thinking.

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/HLA/anderson/gh_tom.htm

http://midwestpermaculture.com/self-...fit-potential/

BTW Its still Gunner unless you want me to keep flipping you guys the
bird? Your call.

Gunner wrote:
....
Oh yea, a little addendum just for giggles and grins:

http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/mg.../tomatoes.html

Approximate yields: 15 to 45 pounds per 10-foot row.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7242813_ma...ne-plant_.html

Average Yield
The average tomato plant produces just five pounds of tomatoes,
according to the University of Missouri Extension. However, you may
attain yields as high as 20 pounds per plant if you provide proper
care for your plants.
so:

low end : 5 x 26 = 130
high end: 20 x 26 =520

You are saying you got 500+ #s, from 26 plants w/ more to come and
no waste!

no, there has been some loss here or there.
not too much yet. if a tomato has a bit of
rot on it or the end was too ripe then we'd
cut that off and use the rest. i think we've
thrown about ten tomatoes away right from the
vine (complete loss of that fruit).

for the four buckets we did yesterday there
was of course all the air spaces in between
the tomatoes, but in the end we had one full
bucket of cores and peels/seeds/ends/bits
after processing.

a bucket weighs around 22-24lbs depending
upon the size and how high we stack them.

roughly 60lbs went in the 28qts and 28lbs
will go back to the ground.

the math i presented in my original post
was working backwards from 103qts total so
far produced. we've been getting about 7qts
per bucket so doing the math of 22lbs/bucket
and ending up with about 15 buckets of fruit
so far (i.e. 330lbs) just to put up the 103qts.

that does not include what we have eaten or
given away. i know we've given away over 80lbs
as i've carried much of it. as for eating,
we've eaten one to two tomatoes a day since
they've come in and handfuls of cherry tomatoes.
for two people that's about another 80lbs.

330+160=490lbs with more to come.


Wow! But still Bird , the Missouri thing comes out and ya
cannot show me that your not being a bit too enthusiastic with your
numbers. It is human nature after all especially when called out on a
public forum. So don't take it too personal, but seriously folks
tend to inflate for ego.... just look at billy.... so a grain of salt
and such.

you may take it however you'd like. i know i'm not
inflating numbers because i'm using the low end to
begin with (instead of 24+lbs per bucket i'm using 22lbs)
and i'm weighing the buckets before processing and we
are writing down the number of quarts produced. there
is no enthusiasm in the number of quarts as that is
solid fact. you're welcome to visit and count the jars.
inspect the number of plants. talk to people we've
given fruit to. etc.


Still good on ya. Lets see what the next few months bring ya. I'll
still be growing.

the final tally will be in a bit yet, and that
will depend upon if i feel ambitious enough to
harvest the greens and put any of those up or
to let the worms have them. one last celebratory
fried green tomato usually marks the end of the
season.


Canned toms are a buck ten for a 28 oz these days up here. Hot house
vines are 2.29-2.99 a # and they are from the PNW, not CA., Fla. AZ,
nor Mexico.

i can't stand the taste of canned tomatoes or
juice (watered down, metallic and salty).

get the price of organic, glass jar, 100% tomato
juice or chunks, no water, sugar or salt added and
then you'd be comparable. though certainly i could
not compete with the purchasing power of a major
producer for the price of jars or lids, but my
overhead is peanuts compared to them too. and i
have no distribution or advertising costs.

next time we visit the farm stand down the road
that sells canning tomatoes i'll check his prices
(i think they were about $10/half bushel, but i
will check). we buy the sweet corn and melons
from him. i think he grows organic.


BTW do you ever read market reports? may not mean anything to you but
it is a good gauge for your efforts:
http://produceone.com/markets/

no, as i'm not selling these tomatoes or
the quarts that have been put up. organic
prices would be more comparable.


....
MICHIGAN : TOMATOES Demand: GOOD. Market: STEADY. Basis of Sale:
Sales F.O.B. Shipping Point and/or Delivered Sales, Shipping Point
Basis
MICHIGAN : TOMATOES Package: 25 lb cartons loose Variety: VINE
RIPES
Reporting City: BENTON HARBOR, MI
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 13.95 - 15.35 13.95 - 14.35 2011 5x5 sz
occas higher
09/02/2011 12.00 - 14.35 12.00 - 13.95 2011 5x6 sz
occas higher
09/02/2011 12.00 - 14.35 12.00 - 13.95 2011 6x6 sz
occas higher

MICHIGAN : TOMATOES Package: cartons 2 layer Variety: VINE
RIPES
Reporting City: BENTON HARBOR, MI
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 12.00 - 15.95 12.85 - 14.35 2011 4x5s
occas higher
09/02/2011 12.00 - 15.95 12.85 - 14.35 2011 5x5s
occas higher

....

trimmed down to these local prices (as i'm in MI).


so ~180- 200$ to 300$ wholesale for your efforts is a more realistic
figure. Nice little backyard project.

organic?


Do check these out, bit old but they are a pretty good standard that
can be verified, not that I do not trust your figures but i do not
think you truly understand the macro view in your zeal to have folks
buy into the organo billy world. Know there are pros and cons to
all, just don't try to tell me you have a one size fits all like
billy pretends. OK? That is really stupid thinking.

the ultimate judge will be the quality
of the land/air/water in a hundred years.
will our children be able to have
children and will they be able to live
healthy lives?

i'm hoping to keep these few acres
going for as long as i can. i'm not sure
what the future holds, but i do know i'm
liking the results so far from my shift
away from using various sprays and
encouraging helpful critters.


http://www.uky.edu/Ag/HLA/anderson/gh_tom.htm

http://midwestpermaculture.com/self-...fit-potential/

BTW Its still Gunner unless you want me to keep flipping you guys the
bird? Your call.

ok, Gunner. [whatever you do with your fingers
is your business ]

now i gotta get a move on and get some peaches
picked and start putting them up.


songbird

On Sep 4, 7:10*am, songbird wrote:
Gunner wrote:

Bird, You guys should be darn proud, 20 #s a plant is exceptional in
any climate. Just know that would not happen here without some help.
Hell, a lot of help, hence the BS hothouse vines sure taste better
than the Fl field pinks shipped up here. So I tweak under lights.

I also agree w/ ya, you can't place a price on a quality product. So
I don't understand "whats the price" thing was? You would not be
pulling 20 # here and you admit you can't compete with the commercial
growers on price point. Kinda sounded like you were tag teaming with
billy, one of those organo vs. the world folks when we started this
little posturing game.

My garden is a cook's garden. I do really good with it because of a
lot of good teachers around the world. My rosemarys are not the
Mediterranean quality I have known but I can tweak em in a green house
better to taste than I can in the cool wet short growing season we
have here. That is priceless to have that. Sure nice in the winter to
have some rosemary garlic trashcan potatoes from your own garden.
Same for the many varieties of peppers, epozote, basils, marjoram/
oregano,Bay Laurel .... you get the picture I'm sure. So growing my
own is much better than not. The 20-30 bucks a month is acceptable to
me , again especially in the winter when I'm in my greenhouse. I still
have time to review the seed catalogs in front of the winter fire with
the dog at my feet as you do

As for your sermon of "go forth and cause no harm". Your preaching to
the choir, maybe not yours perhaps and certainly not the billy bad
goat Doom and Gloom Fringe Band. I do not see it as an "either/
or". You've even stated you use billy's evil OP. But billy has
never been anywhere nor seen anything except what he reads on the
Internet to really compare. I have been around the world a time or
two to appreciate the little things that American billys seems to
think is exclusive to the Organos. He has no bona fides except from
his Amazon Organo book of the month club . Your 20# @ give you
some. My Inlaws in Detroit didn't have such luck.

Just know I'm using less 'cides than most in my IPM schedules and
certainly less water than dirt scratchers except mine is about equal
in the hottest part of the summer when our soil drains too well.
Luckily we have Hydropower here so my energy/water is cheap. Old Sol
is not always here for ya in the PNW. You results may vary in the
Great Lakes.

Regardless, The best to you birds. I also hope you keep your land
for many years to come. Also know my grandkids will be helping yours.

BTW, Miracle-Gro is still OK to use

In article
,
Gunner wrote:

On Sep 3, 11:52*pm, Gunner wrote:
On Sep 3, 5:31*pm, songbird wrote:

* you said BS when i said we'd get 200-
600lbs of fruit out of our patches. *26
plants total, 24 beefsteak and 2 sweet
100s.

Oh yea, a little addendum just for giggles and grins:

http://ag.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/mg.../tomatoes.html

Approximate yields: 15 to 45 pounds per 10-foot row.

http://www.ehow.com/facts 7242813 many-tomatoes-can-one-plant .html

Average Yield
The average tomato plant produces just five pounds of tomatoes,
according to the University of Missouri Extension. However, you may
attain yields as high as 20 pounds per plant if you provide proper
care for your plants.
so:

low end : 5 x 26 = 130
high end: 20 x 26 =520

You are saying you got 500+ #s, from 26 plants w/ more to come and
no waste! Wow! But still Bird , the Missouri thing comes out and ya
cannot show me that your not being a bit too enthusiastic with your
numbers. It is human nature after all especially when called out on a
public forum. So don't take it too personal, but seriously folks
tend to inflate for ego.... just look at billy.... so a grain of salt
and such.

Still good on ya. Lets see what the next few months bring ya. I'll
still be growing.

Canned toms are a buck ten for a 28 oz these days up here. Hot house
vines are 2.29-2.99 a # and they are from the PNW, not CA., Fla. AZ,
nor Mexico.

BTW do you ever read market reports? may not mean anything to you but
it is a good gauge for your efforts:
http://produceone.com/markets/

Prices represent open (spot) market sales by first handlers on product
of generally good quality and condition unless otherwise stated and
may include promotional allowances or other incentives. No
consideration is given to after-sale adjustments unless otherwise
stated. Brokerage fees paid by the shipper are included in the price
reported.

CENTRAL DISTRICT CALIFORNIA : TOMATOES Demand: GOOD. Market:
STEADY. Basis of Sale: Sales F.O.B. Shipping Point and/or Delivered
Sales, Shipping Point Basis Comment: Extra services included.
CENTRAL DISTRICT CALIFORNIA : TOMATOES Package: 25 lb cartons
loose Variety: MATURE GREENS
Reporting City: PHOENIX, AZ
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 9.95 - 9.95 - 2011 xlge few
11.95
09/02/2011 9.95 - 9.95 - 2011 lge few
11.95
09/02/2011 8.95 - 9.95 - 2011 med few
10.95

EASTERN SHORE VIRGINIA : TOMATOES Basis of Sale: Sales F.O.B. Shipping
Point and Delivered Sales Shipping Point BasisComments: SUPPLIES
INSUFFICIENT TO ESTABLISH MARKET.

MICHIGAN : TOMATOES Demand: GOOD. Market: STEADY. Basis of Sale:
Sales F.O.B. Shipping Point and/or Delivered Sales, Shipping Point
Basis
MICHIGAN : TOMATOES Package: 25 lb cartons loose Variety: VINE
RIPES
Reporting City: BENTON HARBOR, MI
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 13.95 - 15.35 13.95 - 14.35 2011 5x5 sz
occas higher
09/02/2011 12.00 - 14.35 12.00 - 13.95 2011 5x6 sz
occas higher
09/02/2011 12.00 - 14.35 12.00 - 13.95 2011 6x6 sz
occas higher

MICHIGAN : TOMATOES Package: cartons 2 layer Variety: VINE
RIPES
Reporting City: BENTON HARBOR, MI
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 12.00 - 15.95 12.85 - 14.35 2011 4x5s
occas higher
09/02/2011 12.00 - 15.95 12.85 - 14.35 2011 5x5s
occas higher

SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA COAST AND MEXICO CROSSINGS THROUGH OTAY MESA :
TOMATOES Demand: GOOD. Market: 4X4-4X5S HIGHER, OTHERS ABOUT
STEADY. Basis of Sale: Sales F.O.B. Shipping Point and/or Delivered
Sales, Shipping Point Basis Supply: VERY LIGHT. Comment: Extra
services included.
SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA COAST AND MEXICO CROSSINGS THROUGH OTAY MESA :
TOMATOES Package: cartons/flats 2 layer Variety: VINE RIPES
Reporting City: PHOENIX, AZ
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 10.95 - 12.95 - 2011 4x4s Greenhouse
09/02/2011 10.95 - 12.95 - 2011 4x5s Greenhouse
09/02/2011 10.95 - 10.95 - 2011 5x5s Greenhouse
09/02/2011 10.95 - 10.95 - 2011 5x6s Greenhouse

WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA : TOMATOES Demand: FAIRLY GOOD. Market: ABOUT
STEADY. Basis of Sale: Sales F.O.B. Shipping Point and/or Delivered
Sales, Shipping Point Basis
WESTERN NORTH CAROLINA : TOMATOES Package: 25 lb cartons loose
Variety: VINE RIPES Grade: U.S. Comb or Better
Reporting City: ASHEVILLE, NC
Date Low-High Price Mostly Low-High Price Season Item Size Environment
Color Unit of Sale Quality Condition Storage Appearance Import/Export
Comment
09/02/2011 12.00 - 13.95 13.95 - 13.95 2011 jbo
09/02/2011 12.00 - 13.95 13.95 - 13.95 2011 xlge


so ~180- 200$ to 300$ wholesale for your efforts is a more realistic
figure. Nice little backyard project.


Do check these out, bit old but they are a pretty good standard that
can be verified, not that I do not trust your figures but i do not
think you truly understand the macro view in your zeal to have folks
buy into the organo billy world. Know there are pros and cons to
all, just don't try to tell me you have a one size fits all like
billy pretends. OK? That is really stupid thinking.

http://www.uky.edu/Ag/HLA/anderson/gh tom.htm

http://midwestpermaculture.com/self-...nhouse/greenho
use-profit-potential/

BTW Its still Gunner unless you want me to keep flipping you guys the
bird? Your call.

But, you do respond to it Gunny. Just can't resist put up a post, can
you, Gunny? Oh, and here's an emu for you ;O)

--
"Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the
merger of state and corporate power." - Benito Mussolini.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYIC0eZYEtI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_vN0--mHug

Gunner wrote:
....
Outstanding Birds!

Mine are not coming in as fast as the weather was very cool and wet
this year, still have some flowers on the Stripies and purples. Day
& night weather tomato good for the next 10 days though. Should be for
the next 30 as well. Cherries have been going like gang busters esp
the Orange. Made a great little roasted vine cluster Caprisan salad
with the Red Cherries and my globe Basil on a toasted Tuscan bread a
bit of garlic and EVOO. Almost orgasmic! In retrospect should have
stayed with day long lighting though. Too cool to school I guess. I
was hoping you organo farmers actually had an edge but no such luck
in the PNW. Light and temps are still the key up here.

if you are in the cloudy western part then
it would be tougher. do you select shorter
season and smaller varieties to grow?

in the eastern parts where there is much
more light, then water becomes the limiting
factor. i'm lucky to have good water and soil
that holds the water along with the heat and
sun in the mid-summer.


Bit unusual to have pulled in 10 # per #5 pro container of Anchos
though in such a short season up here. Ancho/Pasilla is my fav. We
will see what my winter crop of fresh tomatoes is, along with the
fresh mesclun, Rains move back in around duck season. Should harvest
the salad stuff every 30-35 days . not much light need there.

i've not grown much in the way of hot
peppers here (i like a little heat, but
Ma cannot tolerate any). the green peppers
always do well here and i'd like to get
some red peppers going next year as they
have a lot of uses and i much prefer
eating them. if i can ever find a hot
pepper that will grow here that tastes
like the aja hot pepper sauce i had years
ago i would grow one or two as that was
mild enough for me but also had a lot of
good flavors. i dislike habaneros (they
taste like rotting fruit to me most of
the time) and halapenos are bland to me.

if the hot summers continue this might
become a good chili growing region.


You
really should consider extending your season on some of your crops.
Granted canned is good for sauces but fresh is oh so good. But hey
if your on the homestead cycle good for you. Hopefully your next
years crop is as good!

every year is an adventure.

extending one crop means delaying others
or not being able to get a garden bed
sprouted with a cover crop or green manure
in time for winter. some plantings i can
do in the fall for next year, if those
beds are tied up then i'm getting in the
way of next year's crops.

i can daydream about a greenhouse
addition all i want, but in the end the
expense isn't worth the results. i'd
do better putting in solar hot water
panels -- a more immediate return.


best to you and the other bird.

it's all good, likewises,


songbird

Gunner wrote:
songbird wrote:
Gunner wrote:

Bird, You guys should be darn proud, 20 #s a plant is exceptional in
any climate. Just know that would not happen here without some help.
Hell, a lot of help, hence the BS hothouse vines sure taste better
than the Fl field pinks shipped up here. So I tweak under lights.

i'm happy, but not particularly proud because we
didn't really have to do much other than plant them
and water them during the dry spells. a little weeding
here or there.


I also agree w/ ya, you can't place a price on a quality product. So
I don't understand "whats the price" thing was?

i'm not sure what you are talking about
unless you mean the point i was trying to make
about what it actually costs to produce a pound
of greenhouse tomato compared to what it costs
to produce a pound grown in the dirt.


You would not be
pulling 20 # here and you admit you can't compete with the commercial
growers on price point.

i don't understand you. you quoted wholesale tomato
prices not wholesale organic tomato prices. and i'm
not a commercial grower anyways. the question i answered
was how much did it cost me per pound and i put a number
out there and my reasoning behind it. i still have yet
to see a number from you.


Kinda sounded like you were tag teaming with
billy, one of those organo vs. the world folks when we started this
little posturing game.

it's not posturing if i'm backing it up with
facts.


My garden is a cook's garden. I do really good with it because of a
lot of good teachers around the world. My rosemarys are not the
Mediterranean quality I have known but I can tweak em in a green house
better to taste than I can in the cool wet short growing season we
have here. That is priceless to have that. Sure nice in the winter to
have some rosemary garlic trashcan potatoes from your own garden.
Same for the many varieties of peppers, epozote, basils, marjoram/
oregano,Bay Laurel .... you get the picture I'm sure. So growing my
own is much better than not. The 20-30 bucks a month is acceptable to
me , again especially in the winter when I'm in my greenhouse. I still
have time to review the seed catalogs in front of the winter fire with
the dog at my feet as you do

it all sounds good to me. here, keeping a
greenhouse warm enough to keep a rosemary plant
would cost a lot of money. the rosemary plant we
have comes inside for the winter and sits by the
window here in my room. that's all the space for
plants i want to bring in. the amaryllis are
taking over as it is. gotta give some away soon.


As for your sermon of "go forth and cause no harm". Your preaching to
the choir, maybe not yours perhaps and certainly not the billy bad
goat Doom and Gloom Fringe Band. I do not see it as an "either/
or". You've even stated you use billy's evil OP.

? billy's evil OP? no idea what that means.


But billy has
never been anywhere nor seen anything except what he reads on the
Internet to really compare. I have been around the world a time or
two to appreciate the little things that American billys seems to
think is exclusive to the Organos. He has no bona fides except from
his Amazon Organo book of the month club . Your 20# @ give you
some. My Inlaws in Detroit didn't have such luck.

the neighbor's garden 150yds away didn't
have any luck this year either. but it's
really not lack of luck as much as nobody
cares much for gardening there. just a
little effort in the right direction and
they'd get much more for their efforts.

to defend billy a bit, he does garden.

yes, i'd like to hear more direct experience
from him and less quoting of other sources as
this isn't a "post your research quotes"
newsgroup.

in the end, i think his heart is in the
right place.


Just know I'm using less 'cides than most in my IPM schedules and
certainly less water than dirt scratchers except mine is about equal
in the hottest part of the summer when our soil drains too well.
Luckily we have Hydropower here so my energy/water is cheap. Old Sol
is not always here for ya in the PNW. You results may vary in the
Great Lakes.

sure. our power is mostly either coal or nuclear.
the wind and solar is gradually increasing. they are
just now adding a 90MW wind farm that will come online
this year. the problem here with solar is that the
winters are cloudy often enough so it isn't something
that gets paid back as quickly as it would in the
southwest.


Regardless, The best to you birds. I also hope you keep your land
for many years to come. Also know my grandkids will be helping yours.

thanks,


BTW, Miracle-Gro is still OK to use

gack! i was just thinking about what i
would rather drink, dilute MG or dilute
worm tea. can't say i've tasted either.
don't intend to.

now my break is over and time to get
back out and get the buckets of stuff
buried and the grapes cleaned up a bit.
if i have any energy left after that
then i move on to finishing up thinning
the strawberry patch.

O&E,


songbird

Derald wrote:
songbird wrote:

the green peppers
always do well here and i'd like to get
some red peppers going next year as they
have a lot of uses and i much prefer
eating them.

How do you differentiate? I see yellow and red "bell" peppers in the stores
but don't know what the differences are.

they are different varieties. if i wanted
red peppers i could have gotten the plants
from the greenhouse.


However, I routinely grow "California
Wonder" capsicum and jalapeño peppers and let some of them ripen on the bushes.
Allowing them to ripen on the bush does not seem to effect blossom production.

the same with the green peppers, they bloom
several times. they are blooming now and we
have small ones that have formed, but if the
weather gets cold they may never get very
large. weather this week looks to be good
for tomatoes and peppers. and getting more
things done outside.


Both kinds become much sweeter and develop fuller flavor than when green; the
jalapeños "seem" to be less hot, although, as hot peppers go they are relatively
mild.

mild is ok. i like just a little heat, but
not enough that you feel the skin peeling off
your tongue when you eat them.

the most i like jalapenos is when they
are smoked.


Although, when I remember to bring them inside, I can grow japs
year-'round, DW dices and freezes red and green of both kinds.

if i were further south i'd get into more
hot kinds as there is a lot of variety out
there to sample and i really am hoping to find
one that tastes like that aja pepper i had all
those years ago.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Gunner wrote:
songbird wrote:
Gunner wrote:

Bird, You guys should be darn proud, 20 #s a plant is exceptional in
any climate. Just know that would not happen here without some help.
Hell, a lot of help, hence the BS hothouse vines sure taste better
than the Fl field pinks shipped up here. So I tweak under lights.

i'm happy, but not particularly proud because we
didn't really have to do much other than plant them
and water them during the dry spells. a little weeding
here or there.


I also agree w/ ya, you can't place a price on a quality product. So
I don't understand "whats the price" thing was?

i'm not sure what you are talking about
unless you mean the point i was trying to make
about what it actually costs to produce a pound
of greenhouse tomato compared to what it costs
to produce a pound grown in the dirt.


You would not be
pulling 20 # here and you admit you can't compete with the commercial
growers on price point.

i don't understand you. you quoted wholesale tomato
prices not wholesale organic tomato prices. and i'm
not a commercial grower anyways. the question i answered
was how much did it cost me per pound and i put a number
out there and my reasoning behind it. i still have yet
to see a number from you.


Kinda sounded like you were tag teaming with
billy, one of those organo vs. the world folks when we started this
little posturing game.

it's not posturing if i'm backing it up with
facts.


My garden is a cook's garden. I do really good with it because of a
lot of good teachers around the world. My rosemarys are not the
Mediterranean quality I have known but I can tweak em in a green house
better to taste than I can in the cool wet short growing season we
have here. That is priceless to have that. Sure nice in the winter to
have some rosemary garlic trashcan potatoes from your own garden.
Same for the many varieties of peppers, epozote, basils, marjoram/
oregano,Bay Laurel .... you get the picture I'm sure. So growing my
own is much better than not. The 20-30 bucks a month is acceptable to
me , again especially in the winter when I'm in my greenhouse. I still
have time to review the seed catalogs in front of the winter fire with
the dog at my feet as you do

it all sounds good to me. here, keeping a
greenhouse warm enough to keep a rosemary plant
would cost a lot of money. the rosemary plant we
have comes inside for the winter and sits by the
window here in my room. that's all the space for
plants i want to bring in. the amaryllis are
taking over as it is. gotta give some away soon.


As for your sermon of "go forth and cause no harm". Your preaching to
the choir, maybe not yours perhaps and certainly not the billy bad
goat Doom and Gloom Fringe Band. I do not see it as an "either/
or". You've even stated you use billy's evil OP.

? billy's evil OP? no idea what that means.


But billy has
never been anywhere nor seen anything except what he reads on the
Internet to really compare. I have been around the world a time or
two to appreciate the little things that American billys seems to
think is exclusive to the Organos. He has no bona fides except from
his Amazon Organo book of the month club . Your 20# @ give you
some. My Inlaws in Detroit didn't have such luck.

the neighbor's garden 150yds away didn't
have any luck this year either. but it's
really not lack of luck as much as nobody
cares much for gardening there. just a
little effort in the right direction and
they'd get much more for their efforts.

to defend billy a bit, he does garden.

yes, i'd like to hear more direct experience
from him and less quoting of other sources as
this isn't a "post your research quotes"
newsgroup.

in the end, i think his heart is in the
right place.


Just know I'm using less 'cides than most in my IPM schedules and
certainly less water than dirt scratchers except mine is about equal
in the hottest part of the summer when our soil drains too well.
Luckily we have Hydropower here so my energy/water is cheap. Old Sol
is not always here for ya in the PNW. You results may vary in the
Great Lakes.

sure. our power is mostly either coal or nuclear.
the wind and solar is gradually increasing. they are
just now adding a 90MW wind farm that will come online
this year. the problem here with solar is that the
winters are cloudy often enough so it isn't something
that gets paid back as quickly as it would in the
southwest.


Regardless, The best to you birds. I also hope you keep your land
for many years to come. Also know my grandkids will be helping yours.

thanks,


BTW, Miracle-Gro is still OK to use

gack! i was just thinking about what i
would rather drink, dilute MG or dilute
worm tea. can't say i've tasted either.
don't intend to.

now my break is over and time to get
back out and get the buckets of stuff
buried and the grapes cleaned up a bit.
if i have any energy left after that
then i move on to finishing up thinning
the strawberry patch.

O&E,


songbird

Psst. Is he gone? When do you think he'll find out that you are just
another hemorrhoidal, fat, old man? Whups ;O) shussh.

Anyway, all I got for you is another ol' book report. To wit:

Animal Factory: The Looming Threat of Industrial Pig, Dairy, and Poultry
Farms to Humans and the Environment by David Kirby
http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Factory...vironment/dp/B
004IK9EJQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310272843&sr=1-1
(Available at your local library, until they are closed.)


260 ANIMAL FACTORY

What irked Chuck most was that not all hog farmers [CAFOs] were doing
their part to avoid pollution. "And it ticks me off," he said. "I spend
so much time and trouble and paperwork on all the things I do ‹ most of
my expenses, really ‹ for applying and monitoring the waste. And then
some guy somewhere just decides to let it go, and then that paints a bad
picture for all of us."

Chuck was personally involved in the hunt to make [CAFO] lagoons
obsolete.

Chuck introduced them to the inventor, an old farmer named Don Lloyd.
Rick and Nicolette watched in wonderment as Chuck and Lloyd explained
how it worked.

"We take all the wastewater washed from the barns and pump it into this
underground holding tank, where heavy solids settle to the bottom," Chuck
said. "Now, this is all the stuff that would normally go into the
lagoon. So you see, we've already eliminated the need for a lagoon right
from the get-go." Rick liked what he was hearing so far.

Once the solids had settled out, Chuck and Lloyd siphoned water off the
top and ran it to a large above-ground tank.

[T]he solids, raw manure cannot be used on food crops because of
the harmful pathogens it contains, limiting its commercial value as a
fertilizer. Most of the germs can be killed through composting, though
that takes time and money to accomplish, without adding enough market
value to the manure to make the system economically feasible.

"Then we discovered an answer," Chuck said proudly. "It was worms‹
vermiculture, they call it." Lloyd devised a system that feeds waste
solids to worms on a continual basis. Inside a barn with dirt floors, he
had dug several rows of trenches‹three feet wide and about twenty-two
inches deep‹the entire length of the floor. A mix of worms and organic
matter were introduced into the trenches, and then specially designed
machinery deposited an inch of solids into each trench every morning. By
the end of the day, the worms had consumed the entire inch of food,
turning it into clean, odorless, disease-free castings. The worms
returned to the bottom of the trench, and another layer of, solids was
applied to begin the process again.

"I chose a type of worm that turns this stuff into some kind of superfood
for plants," Don said. "Farmers and gardeners can't get enough of it;
they pay top dollar for it." The worm barn could yield about three tons
of the coveted "black gold" each day, he said, adding that the state
department of transportation had told him they wanted to buy it for
roadside plantings.

"And because of the value added on the manure from those little worms,"
Chuck concluded with a big grin, "it brings our net costs down to about
fourteen

262 I ANIMAL FACTORY

dollars per thousandweight," or a penny and a half per pound. "But this
is still in its early stages. We're just a little Chitty Chitty Bang
Bang kinda outfit up here."
---
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would have cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it¹s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That¹s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don¹t get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

* it's all good, likewises,

* songbird
Bird, a roll of Visqueen and 10' PVC pipe are cheap. easy to make a
tall hoop to give ya ~ a month's stretch on the fall side jump. You
get enough sun to make it worth the while till it dips below freezing
every night , then again in the spring another 3 weeks but even
better is starting your seedlings. Me? Not w/o lights.

Worm tea or MG??? ohhh. I might have to side on the mg but if your
familiar with Charcuterie ( sausages AND SUCH) , you know that
Nitrite/Nitrates can be dangerous to digest, do not want to be cured
alive, but the Micro- Bio stuffs in the worm tea would have to blow
your guts out for days on end. Been there and got that T-shirt from a
few local foods better used as Fertilizer. Can't do that much anymore
nor do I want to.

Ajas? perhaps Aji? amarillo chili? search the chile link I give
below for the Capsicum Baccatums , S. American if so. Bit of heat in
those. http://www.thechileman.org/guide_podtypes.php

I come here to read what other parts of the country/world are growing
and how. You and Ross in So Cal are good info. Brooklyn is also in
his own way, know him from old cooking groups. Well... that and take
cheap shots at ignorant talk. You know there is really NO one size
fits all and I can search doom and gloom on the net w/o billyisms .
I'm sure billy thinks he is all good and a bag of chips, but the
stretching and preaching really has got to go. It give old folks a bad
rap.

My fav cuisine is Latin for many reasons. Not Tex- Mex nor Cali-Mex,
but real- Mex, Latin, Caribe and S. American, some Nu-Mex. I do a
lot of peppers but not really hot ones, even if I use habs it is w/ a
measured eye. I am not a heat seeking chilehead. Not my thing... but
I do go for flavor. Very hard to grow in this climate, harder still
to grow properly and dry especially w/o lights, even then the cool
weather does greatly affect the taste and heat level. Derald
validates what many tell me. I got Anchos growing that are as mild
as Bells, better flavor though. Growing Chile is very much like
Toms.

I do search out the local Mercados for my dried chiles and spices.
The three chiles ( Mexican trinity) , I use as a base sauce are the
Pasilla, a bit spicier than a green bell yet sometimes you lay into a
bit of heat, Guajillo and the chile Negro. a Jalapeno is for
pickling or salsas in my opinion. Even in Mexico, believe it or not,
the jalapeno now come in cheaper from China. Those are a breed from
the TAMU ( Tex A&M) . nice big plump green with little heat these
are alright for a salsa or a Pico de Gallo, Sorry Derald, Jaleponas
there area bit too gringo. A Serrano is better heat and the Ancho
( green immature Pasilla) is for stuffing with your fav mix. and a
good melting cheese, again I prefer Mex cheese but can use the
American equivalent, pretty much the same if you translate well. As
for Habs/ Scotch Bonnets and the Ghost, hell you might as well stab
yourself in the face with a fork, it is all going to hurt... bad!!!.
Derald if your reading this, the red/yellow and orange are all good
and the're the mature version of the green bell. Too costly to buy
here ( 1.50-3$ this season) except on sale, but if you can grow to
color, then you go old son. Roast em, can em with the juices, a dash
of salt, a few cloves of garlic and drizzled w/ EVOO. I use that as
a base for lots of Latin and Med. dishes. simple and delicious. I
do not like the taste of a green bell cooked, stuffed bell w/ rice.
ground meat and a red sauce is OK. For a cool weather pepper try the
Rocotos or Manzanos
http://www.thechileman.org/results.p...=Any&genus=Any
( black seeds, a Peruivan short season). do watch the heat though,
some can sneak up and bite ya. Habs (~ 120 days, humid heat) does
not grow well up here, too little heat, most never grow up to be big
boys.

Hey, do you like Pork ( Boston Butt or country ribs)? if so, ever
eat Hominy ( puffy corn)? You can find it around your canned corn if
you cannot get dried, canned is ok to use. Highly recommend you
Google up a Posole recipe till you see one you might like, many
varieties. Its my winter weekend Chile pot comfort food. Chile, not
Chili ort Chilli. a thin red sauce is my fav but a thick, w/o so
much tomato is just as good. Green chile and chicken is what is
called White Posole. Mexican Penicillin , good for all that ales ya.
I have made it from stuff I have found in Korea, Italy. Germany and
both US coasts. All wanting to know how to make it scarfing up an 8
qt pot. Green chile stew is also good, nothing has to be hot, just
flavorful.

Derald don't know how the Mexican Trinity (Annuums) I mentioned
would grow in your humidity but most all the Futescens, Pubescens
and Chinense should do well in Fl. That "California Wonder"
capsicum, is that an Anaheim? If so thats an annuum that you might
get a good flavor from in Fl. Mostly a dry heat pepper tho. Read a
lot of chileheads in UK grow caps but I'm thinking they are mostly
tainted by an Indian or a SE Asian heat profile.

I gotta run also, have to do some homework on a new system I want to
get in before winter. It may not be this year tho.

Best to all

Billy wrote:
....
Psst. Is he gone? When do you think he'll find out that you are just
another hemorrhoidal, fat, old man? Whups ;O) shussh.

Anyway, all I got for you is another ol' book report. To wit:

Animal Factory: The Looming Threat of Industrial Pig, Dairy, and Poultry
Farms to Humans and the Environment by David Kirby
http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Factory...vironment/dp/B
004IK9EJQ/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1310272843&sr=1-1
(Available at your local library, until they are closed.)


260 ANIMAL FACTORY
....
"I chose a type of worm that turns this stuff into some kind of superfood
for plants," Don said. "Farmers and gardeners can't get enough of it;
they pay top dollar for it." The worm barn could yield about three tons
of the coveted "black gold" each day, he said, adding that the state
department of transportation had told him they wanted to buy it for
roadside plantings.
....

it doesn't say what happens to
the wastewater...

oh geeze, an inch of pig poo solids a
day. that would be hell to me, pig poo
is way too stinky. the wormies are
probably doing a great job, but i sure
wouldn't want to feed that stuff to my
worms and then put it on any food plant.
pigs eat too much like people for me to
want to have stuff coming out their butts
to be anywhere near food crops.

roadside fertilizer? you means so the
wind can pick up the dust and have many
people breathing it as they drive by? washed
by rain into the ditches and then streams,
rivers, etc. sure some of it is sterilized
by the sun and rain, but how many bacteria or
virus do you need for some infections? not
many. um, no thanks, bad idea.

i can't tell from the quote if the
guy is raising his pigs with or without
antibiotics and hormones. those i
certainly would not want going through
to the worms/plants/ground/groundwater.


songbird

"Gunner" wrote in message
...

it's all good, likewises,

songbird
Bird, a roll of Visqueen and 10' PVC pipe are cheap. easy to make a
tall hoop to give ya ~ a month's stretch on the fall side jump. You
get enough sun to make it worth the while till it dips below freezing
every night , then again in the spring another 3 weeks but even
better is starting your seedlings. Me? Not w/o lights.

I gotta run also, have to do some homework on a new system I want to
get in before winter. It may not be this year tho.

Best to all

Dam Gunner, you had to leave out my favorite chili. There's nothing like
poblanos! Choose the variety carefully, some are wimpy mild and some are
spicy. My favorite is "Tiburon". It has a very fruity heat and is delicious
in any Latin type dish. If you season is long enough they mature to a deep
mahogany. Dry them and the flavor is wonderfully spicy raisons. IMHO the
fruity heat is by far the best of the chilies.

In article ,
songbird wrote:

BTW, Miracle-Gro is still OK to use

gack! i was just thinking about what i
would rather drink, dilute MG or dilute
worm tea. can't say i've tasted either.
don't intend to.

now my break is over and time to get
back out and get the buckets of stuff
buried and the grapes cleaned up a bit.
if i have any energy left after that
then i move on to finishing up thinning
the strawberry patch.

O&E,


songbird

In all fairness, Scott's Miracle Grow also comes in the dreaded
"organic" form (Miracle-Gro Organic Choice) which is anathema to gunny's
vision of a synthetic world.
http://www.homedepot.com/Outdoors/h_...52324/h_d2/Pro
ductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053
15 lbs/$16.48 each, or you could buy Home Despots chicken manure for 1
cu. ft./$3.07. gunny is lucky. He can run his hydroponics with
hydro-electric power, whereas most would have to depend on coal, or
nuclear produced electricity. His way of gardening seems over engineered.
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would have cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it¹s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That¹s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don¹t get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

On Sep 7, 6:18*pm, Billy wrote:


You really think you know something worthwhile beside pig shit billy?

school me sissy boy!