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Old 05-09-2011, 10:27 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by
Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011)

http://www.amazon.com/Tropic-Chaos-C...ce/dp/15685860
00/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311984718&sr=1-1
(Available at a library near you.)

172 TROPIC OF CHAOS


Welcome to the hot scrublands of the Nordeste and the tiny village of
Boqueirao in Brazil's Ceara Province.

The Nordeste is semiarid, receiving very little rain. Severe floods
punctuate its frequent droughts.

The majority of climate models find that northeast Brazil
"is expected to experience more rapid warming than the global average
during the 21st century." In more concrete terms, most forecasts predict
northeastern Brazil will be a region of very severe water stress by 2050.

Rio's favelas (slums) are largely populated by people from these dry
lands. Despite its harsh climate, the Northeast is densely populated.43
As climate change grinds down subsistence farmers, more Nordestinos
leave to search for work either in the depressed cities of their nearby
coastal areas, like Fortaleza and Recife, or down south in the
megacities of Sao Palo and Rio. Thus, the social dimensions of the
ecological crisis in the Nordeste (a front-line region for climate
change) are expressed in cities as unemployment, makeshift housing, the
narcotrade and violence.

This community has twenty-seven families, most of them related to
each other. In face of drought and flooding, they have begun to adapt
both technologically and politically. First, they switched from
mono-cropping cotton and beans, which require burning the fallow fields
and using expensive chemical inputs, to a form of mixed-crop
agroecological farming, agroforestry, and integrated pest management
that uses few or no chemical pesticides or fertilizers. They are also
using inventive forms of low-impact water-capturing and rain-harvesting
technologies.

Osmar and some of his compatriots take me across the road to show me
"the system" and some of their alternative water-harvesting techniques.

RIO'S AGONY 175

One method involves building "underground dams." It goes like this: First
the farmers find a dry streambed or natural area of drainage. At the
bottom of this feature, below and away from the slope of the hill, they
dig a long ditch across the natural path of drainage. The ditch maybe
one hundred or three hundred feet long and deep enough to hit solid
rock‹here, about five to ten feet down. Then, within the ditch, they
build a cement and rock wall‹or dam‹lined with heavy plastic. Then the
ditch is filled in, and the wall is buried. This underground dam greatly
slows the natural drainage and creates a moist and fertile field
"upstream."

The agroforestry crops are a mix of fruit trees, corn, cover crops, and
climbing-vine crops. The fields seem abandoned due to the tangled mix of
plant species. This lush mesh captures moisture and creates a balance of
competing insects, limiting or eliminating the need for chemical
pesticides. During the first three to five years, yields decrease, but
then they increase as soil health improves. And the produce, as
organic, commands higher prices.

For individual plants that need irrigation, they attach punctured empty
plastic soda bottles to stakes above the thirsty plant. With this form of
low-tech drip irrigation, a farmer can feed an individual plant little
bits of water, allowing the precious liquid to drip out slowly and only
onto the plant that needs it. The farmers' list of ingenious methods is
long and evolving, thanks in part to groups like the Catholic NGO
Caritas, which works to spread knowledge of best practices among the
communities.

Altogether, these agroforestry or agroecological methods, which revive
and enhance old ways, are in use all over the world. The IPCC mentions
them in the Fourth Assessment Report: "Agroforestry using agroecologi-
cal methods offers strong possibilities for maintaining biological
diversity in Latin America, given the overlap between protected areas
and agricultural zones."44

"The system," as the farmers call it, preserves and enhances the land's
fertility and moisture, and because the fields are never left as bare
ground, it helps prevent erosion.

In the village of Bueno, I met Antonio Braga Mota. "The system is a
balanced system. I was really surprised that we actually did not need
fertilizer and pesticides to do this," said Antonio as we tour his vine-
and tree-covered crops. "The traditional method was destructive. Burning
depletes the land. Unfortunately, I did a lot of that. "He said even
tapirs and rare birds are returning. He could be passionate about the
system because he owned his land. He was not rich but had enough land to
make the transition from main-stream methods to green farming.
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would have cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And itąs not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. Thatąs hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they donąt get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis

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Old 07-09-2011, 01:26 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Billy wrote:

Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by
Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011)

northeastern Brazil will be a region of very severe water stress by 2050.

....
One method involves building "underground dams." It goes like this: First
the farmers find a dry streambed or natural area of drainage. At the
bottom of this feature, below and away from the slope of the hill, they
dig a long ditch across the natural path of drainage. The ditch maybe
one hundred or three hundred feet long and deep enough to hit solid
rock‹here, about five to ten feet down. Then, within the ditch, they
build a cement and rock wall‹or dam‹lined with heavy plastic. Then the
ditch is filled in, and the wall is buried. This underground dam greatly
slows the natural drainage and creates a moist and fertile field
"upstream."


all very interesting. in other arid climates with
no severe drains/gullies you can line rocks across the
ground and they will act as a water catch when it
rains to slow down the water so that more soaks in.
within a few years these rocks will become a line
of plants and then small trees (if you can keep
the goats/sheep from grazing it down). a tree line
that gives shade and harbors birds/wildlife all
from a simple thing like a line of rocks on the
dirt.


songbird
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Old 08-09-2011, 06:09 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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On Sep 5, 2:27*pm, Billy wrote:
Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by
Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011)



What a poorly written piece you present as evidence of organic best
practices. Do you really know about the hydrology or even the geology
of the area in this cherry picked book writers sociologist article?
Seems to me you know even less about the anthropology of the region.
So plastic coke bottles with holes in them are organic best
practices? Sure glad the Catholic relief groups helped in the
translation of this organic wonderment so as to better help us
understand what your trying to say, It sounds so, I don't know...like
so much gringo speak, further translated into something resembling
your organic rants.

How about telling us about the many droughts in that area, should man
keep trying to build in that environment just because " He was not
rich but had enough land to make the transition from main-stream
methods to green farming". What was his main stream methods prior ?
Slash and burn? I feel you need a better understand of the
sciences.

You really think green farming and some dam idea is going to keep him
from starving in the next drought? Perhaps you really think that the
dam idea is somehow unique to your book writer's organo POV on that
area and that give them some special advantage? Do you even know some
of the many other areas in the world that technique is used? The
author neglects to mention that it is the surface dams that allow the
many tribes to live in the region today. Bet ya didn't even know that
there is a vast river under the Amazon a little further south, just
as large at a depth of ~4000 ft? Also not a lot of nutrients going
into that poor soil, which is worse than the soils in the Colorado and
American River basins. The fate of these folks reads very similar to
the Anasazi and the Maya. Do you know how many died in the last big
drought there and when was it?

Like your BS rants about C. Mann and his discovery of biochar that
never was. You know nothing about the area, the people, or the land,
much less the hydrology. Sure seem like your buying into this writer's
book marketing scheme in the same way. Cherry picked doom and gloom ,
being oppressed by the " Man", escaping a world of violence and
depression through the enlightenment of the world of Organic
Superiority. ( cue the harps! down the lights, main spot center
stage on coke bottles dripping water!).

This one is a pathetic leap to organo is best, even for you billy boy.
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Old 08-09-2011, 07:22 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Gunner wrote:
Billy wrote:
Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by
Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011)



What a poorly written piece you present as evidence of organic best
practices. Do you really know about the hydrology or even the geology
of the area in this cherry picked book writers sociologist article?


do you?


Seems to me you know even less about the anthropology of the region.
So plastic coke bottles with holes in them are organic best
practices? Sure glad the Catholic relief groups helped in the
translation of this organic wonderment so as to better help us
understand what your trying to say, It sounds so, I don't know...like
so much gringo speak, further translated into something resembling
your organic rants.

How about telling us about the many droughts in that area, should man
keep trying to build in that environment just because " He was not
rich but had enough land to make the transition from main-stream
methods to green farming". What was his main stream methods prior ?
Slash and burn? I feel you need a better understand of the
sciences.


the obvious trouble in many drought stricken
areas is that the soil is being stripped bare
by animal over grazing and then the winds remove
the fertile topsoil and there goes their fertility.

my readings over the years see the same cycle
repeat in many areas (both historical and some
evidence available for prehistoric events too).

if you can keep the ground covered then it
retains water, stays cooler. if you have a
variety of covers then that increases diversity.

are you arguing against either of these
approaches being good things for any land?


You really think green farming and some dam idea is going to keep him
from starving in the next drought?


if he can make enough in the wetter years
then perhaps he can get through a drought.
if he keeps the land covered then the soil
will not be stripped by the winds in the
next drought, so that when the rains return
his land will be in much better shape than
those who farm their land down to bare soil
and leave it vacant (as they do here quite
often all winter).


Perhaps you really think that the
dam idea is somehow unique to your book writer's organo POV on that
area and that give them some special advantage?


the advantage was stated plainly. they
get more moisture retention and a higher
water table for the area upslope from the
dam. likely making for better crops and
thus more production. also it likely
keeps erosion in check a lot better than
letting the gullies run at full torrent.


Do you even know some
of the many other areas in the world that technique is used? The
author neglects to mention that it is the surface dams that allow the
many tribes to live in the region today. Bet ya didn't even know that
there is a vast river under the Amazon a little further south, just
as large at a depth of ~4000 ft? Also not a lot of nutrients going
into that poor soil, which is worse than the soils in the Colorado and
American River basins. The fate of these folks reads very similar to
the Anasazi and the Maya. Do you know how many died in the last big
drought there and when was it?


thousands to hundreds of thousands, but even
more likely many more were killed by diseases than
by drought (millions more).


Like your BS rants about C. Mann and his discovery of biochar that
never was. You know nothing about the area, the people, or the land,
much less the hydrology. Sure seem like your buying into this writer's
book marketing scheme in the same way. Cherry picked doom and gloom ,
being oppressed by the " Man", escaping a world of violence and
depression through the enlightenment of the world of Organic
Superiority. ( cue the harps! down the lights, main spot center
stage on coke bottles dripping water!).

This one is a pathetic leap to organo is best, even for you billy boy.
.


your rants miss the target quite often so
Gunner i'd wish you'd sharpen it up too.

talking about an underground river by the
Amazon does nothing for the drought stricken
parts of Africa.

oh well, better luck next time,


songbird
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Old 08-09-2011, 05:09 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Derald wrote:

What gets me is that advocates always seem to be so sure of themselves that
"unintended consequences" never occurs to them despite millennia of human
history that is filled with them. I fail to understand how a 21st-century
"educated" citizen cannot recognize narrow-minded, ideological, pedantry and
advocacy disguised as science or journalism and give it precisely the credence
it deserves: Roughly the same credence we all give to someone else's religion.


i dunno, the benefits seem pretty obvious
to me. keeps the ground covered more and
holds the water better. reduces the temperature
as there is more shading. provides a
variety of habitats instead of just the one.

what are you seeing that is religious here?
this is all basic multicropping that used to
be done on small scale farms before. it's
not particularly new it is more a return to
what used to work just fine that was disrupted.

i can imagine a few drawbacks, but nothing
that cannot be mitigated. the more growth
that is about during the wet years means there
will be more fuel for wildfires in the dry
years. a good design of the homestead using
a big enough open space and materials that
won't ignite could mitigate that problem.
sure the dead stuff burns, but otherwise the
ground is protected the rest of the time.
selectively cutting and burying the dead stuff
to increase the organic content of the soil
(to hold moisture better and insulate the
soil from the heat even further) could also
go a long ways towards dealing with the fire
hazard. as it is i think a lot of burning
that is currently done is sending a lot of
material into the air that could be more
useful if buried and burned and turned into
charcoal (however, the darker the soil the
hotter it will get when exposed to the sun
so that's going to be a trade off of sorts
in places).

unintended consequence of diversity or
keeping water from running off too quickly?
sure, the downstream folks aren't going to
get as much runoff all at once, but they
might get a smaller amount over a longer
period of time. this is the same sort of
effect that forests and prairies provide.

invasive species? perhaps some dangers
there, but we are talking semi-arid places
aren't we? so i can't imagine this being
a huge risk as compared to what the wetter
areas of the world contend with (kudzu!).


songbird


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Old 09-09-2011, 04:45 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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"songbird" wrote in message
...
Billy wrote:

Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by
Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011)

northeastern Brazil will be a region of very severe water stress by 2050.

...
One method involves building "underground dams." It goes like this: First
the farmers find a dry streambed or natural area of drainage. At the
bottom of this feature, below and away from the slope of the hill, they
dig a long ditch across the natural path of drainage. The ditch maybe
one hundred or three hundred feet long and deep enough to hit solid
rock‹here, about five to ten feet down. Then, within the ditch, they
build a cement and rock wall‹or dam‹lined with heavy plastic. Then the
ditch is filled in, and the wall is buried. This underground dam greatly
slows the natural drainage and creates a moist and fertile field
"upstream."


all very interesting. in other arid climates with
no severe drains/gullies you can line rocks across the
ground and they will act as a water catch when it
rains to slow down the water so that more soaks in.


Standard practice in permaculture and other forms of land management but
usually it's contour forming on farmland using a tractor/dozer and uses
earth. They're called swales.


within a few years these rocks will become a line
of plants and then small trees (if you can keep
the goats/sheep from grazing it down). a tree line
that gives shade and harbors birds/wildlife all
from a simple thing like a line of rocks on the
dirt.


songbird



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Old 09-09-2011, 04:48 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible,rec.gardens
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"Billy" wrote in message

Osmar and some of his compatriots take me across the road to show me
"the system" and some of their alternative water-harvesting techniques.

RIO'S AGONY 175

One method involves building "underground dams." It goes like this: First
the farmers find a dry streambed or natural area of drainage. At the
bottom of this feature, below and away from the slope of the hill, they
dig a long ditch across the natural path of drainage. The ditch maybe
one hundred or three hundred feet long and deep enough to hit solid
rock‹here, about five to ten feet down. Then, within the ditch, they
build a cement and rock wall‹or dam‹lined with heavy plastic.


Tribal Aboriginals did a similar form of water storing in arid zones of
Australia before the white man arrived here. IIRC, there are photos of such
stores at the base of huge rock formation in the big Permaculture 'bible'.


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Old 09-09-2011, 04:58 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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"Derald" wrote in message

What gets me is that advocates always seem to be so sure of themselves
that
"unintended consequences" never occurs to them despite millennia of human
history that is filled with them. I fail to understand how a 21st-century
"educated" citizen cannot recognize narrow-minded, ideological, pedantry
and
advocacy disguised as science or journalism and give it precisely the
credence
it deserves: Roughly the same credence we all give to someone else's
religion.


I do agree.

It astounds me that so many people can be so narrow minded and remain so
ignorant when faced with a world full of easily accessible information.

Sadly most of the most vocal of those ignorant and uninformed seem to be
your own fellow countrymen. Their comments often make me wonder why it is
that many Americans know so little of the world outside their own borders.
I guess when they face the same sorts of problems as little countries like
Tuvalu and The Maldives they might open their eyes and/or use their brains.


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FarmI wrote:
songbird wrote:

....
all very interesting. in other arid climates with
no severe drains/gullies you can line rocks across the
ground and they will act as a water catch when it
rains to slow down the water so that more soaks in.


Standard practice in permaculture and other forms of land management but
usually it's contour forming on farmland using a tractor/dozer and uses
earth. They're called swales.


ah, the usage i'm familiar with for those
is a sometimes marshy ground, not a particularly
made structure -- though i can see how the term
would be adapted/adopted for them too. the
made structures i would call dams.

here i call places seeps are catches where i
gather water from a harder rain. i wouldn't call
them swales because they are not marshy.


songbird
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On Sep 7, 11:22 pm, songbird wrote:
Gunner wrote:
Billy wrote:
Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by
Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011)

Gunner writes
What a poorly written piece you present as evidence of organic best
practices. Do you really know about the hydrology or even the geology
of the area in this cherry picked book writers sociologist article?


To which the Birds reply:

oh well, better luck next time,

songbird


Better luck, Bird? You got a C- on your test questions and a D for
the essay defending stupid think. You generalize but you have no clue
as to the specific regional area billy's book writer is talking
about. Kinda like billy BSing about Mann and Biochar.

Africa? Well if you’re talking about the fact the two areas were once
one? Ok. If you’re talking about the effects of the Trade Winds from
Africa on that region? Ok. But the two drought/people are not
anywhere near similar. As for the cattle and disease problems unless
you wish to just split hairs on white man's guilt not relevant.

Still you do the math; 1.2 mil people living on very eco fragile land
that would realistically support 500K subsiding with assistance of a
government seed and stipend program. The water used in the primitive
drip irrigation the Catholic church is “translating” as some Organic
salvation is coming from some of the 7000 dams usually filled to ~50%
cap., most dry up in the many droughts they experience or some of the
many wells drilled by the government. The underground damming? Yes,
An old trick used in many lands for subsidence farming and basic
survival of a small number of people. A basic desert survival
technique I also taught . Try looking up the qanat for one such
trick. Farml’s one statement about her Country’s Aborigines using
such a trick is most likely true in their world of living off the
land but again, relevant how? I think there is a better land/people
distro as well as a different societal culture there.

It is a given that area of Brazil will continue to experience more
severe droughts as well as erratic dry seasons in their march to
desertification. Oh another small detail, much of the water is
trucked in the varying dry spells and droughts. So much for reducing
the carbon footprint. As for the three sisters adaptation for ground
cover? Temporary as best. Building the soil bank. Ok! Still how long
will that last w/o water in that type sand, little to no clay
there. I will assume you’re not very familiar with desert life and
primitive cultures. As Farml also inferred you can get a lot of
information off of the internet these days, just how much is true. I
much prefer dot.edu rather than the many book writers living off of
“we are the world”.coms that billy pretends is organo.

As for your do you?

Yes, I really do bird, geology/hydrology is in the family. My
interest was in archaeology and anthropology but was talked out of it
by a Prof before I went the military route. No regrets, all set up &
retired @ 48, been enjoying life since. I've lived in in three
countries and every state west of the Mississippi before I was 11
because of geology. Now days, 4 continents and 15-16 countries. My
interest today in anthropology, particularly in the Amerindians and
desert living stems from that. Hence my interest in hydroponics
also. I really have a pretty good idea of how the hunter gatherer
societies work (ed) than many and how the transition to farming takes
place. This area is just delaying the inevitable. Man is but a dust
speck on Nature's watch.

But for you and billy et al? You boys ever actually been anywhere,
done anything or seen anything besides the day trips on the Internet
to give you actual life experiences? As for the inference from the
Aussie that Americans are not well schooled in worldly affairs and
her continuous inference that Americans are stupid SOBs??? Well I
would hope she realizes billy is but one of 380 Mil and pretty much of
a Walter Mitty. You ? Don't know but I assume you have not traveled
from from your nest either . Perhaps Farml is very well traveled and
properly papered, yet I seriously doubt her myopic view is based on
much more than her internet travels she talks about.

so Birds, I hope you also have good luck in your next time.

Gunner


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Gunner wrote:
songbird wrote:
Gunner wrote:
Billy wrote:
Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by
Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011)

Gunner writes
What a poorly written piece you present as evidence of organic best
practices. Do you really know about the hydrology or even the geology
of the area in this cherry picked book writers sociologist article?


To which the Birds reply:

oh well, better luck next time,


Better luck, Bird? You got a C- on your test questions and a D for
the essay defending stupid think. You generalize but you have no clue
as to the specific regional area billy's book writer is talking
about. Kinda like billy BSing about Mann and Biochar.


um, i never admitted to reading the book did i?
i can only base my replies upon what was quoted.


Africa? Well if you’re talking about the fact the two areas were once
one? Ok. If you’re talking about the effects of the Trade Winds from
Africa on that region? Ok. But the two drought/people are not
anywhere near similar. As for the cattle and disease problems unless
you wish to just split hairs on white man's guilt not relevant.


? cattle, disease problems? white man's guilt? do
you mean the fact that millions of natives were killed
by diseases brought from the old world to the new world?
i don't think there's much splitting of hairs to be
done there.


Still you do the math; 1.2 mil people living on very eco fragile land
that would realistically support 500K subsiding with assistance of a
government seed and stipend program. The water used in the primitive
drip irrigation the Catholic church is “translating” as some Organic
salvation is coming from some of the 7000 dams usually filled to ~50%
cap., most dry up in the many droughts they experience or some of the
many wells drilled by the government.


i'm still not seeing a negative from
encouraging a system which keeps the land
covered with multiple crops instead of a
monoculture.


The underground damming? Yes,
An old trick used in many lands for subsidence farming and basic
survival of a small number of people. A basic desert survival
technique I also taught . Try looking up the qanat for one such
trick. Farml’s one statement about her Country’s Aborigines using
such a trick is most likely true in their world of living off the
land but again, relevant how? I think there is a better land/people
distro as well as a different societal culture there.


the natives are not farmers there, they are
hunter-gatherers.


It is a given that area of Brazil will continue to experience more
severe droughts as well as erratic dry seasons in their march to
desertification.


desertification because of what?


Oh another small detail, much of the water is
trucked in the varying dry spells and droughts. So much for reducing
the carbon footprint.


i believe that the droughts would be much
worse when the land is monocultured and left
bare as compared to a system which keeps
the land covered and shaded as much as possible
from different plants.

yes, any shipping of water would be a negative
on the carbon footprint, but i don't think it
would be better under any other method of
farming either.

overall population reduction to be more in
line with the area's capacity to support them
is closer to sustainable agricultural principles
as far as i'm concerned.


As for the three sisters adaptation for ground
cover? Temporary as best. Building the soil bank. Ok! Still how long
will that last w/o water in that type sand, little to no clay
there.


i'm not talking three sisters for ground cover
i'm talking native plants that will grow if given
and chance and protected from overgrazing. this
is already a proven method in arid regions, but
you do need the people to cooperate in keeping
their animals from destroying the growth and you
need the people to not hack it apart for firewood
or fencing more than it can bear. if the region
is stable enough (has some form of government
strong enough to keep wars from breaking out and
ruining longer term projects) then it can do a
lot. from a simple thing like a line of rocks.


I will assume you’re not very familiar with desert life and
primitive cultures.


ok, and you criticize me for jumping
off from points unsubstatiated? heheh, ok...


As Farml also inferred you can get a lot of
information off of the internet these days, just how much is true. I
much prefer dot.edu rather than the many book writers living off of
“we are the world”.coms that billy pretends is organo.


i don't mind questioning information and
challenging it and talking about it to see
what might make sense and what might not.
what i do mind is calling people religious
fanatics just because they do things
differently.


As for your do you?


? no idea what you mean.


when i write my gardening stuff here i write
what i am actually doing. if i have a failure
i admit it and keep working at it.


Yes, I really do bird, geology/hydrology is in the family. My
interest was in archaeology and anthropology but was talked out of it
by a Prof before I went the military route. No regrets, all set up &
retired @ 48, been enjoying life since. I've lived in in three
countries and every state west of the Mississippi before I was 11
because of geology. Now days, 4 continents and 15-16 countries. My
interest today in anthropology, particularly in the Amerindians and
desert living stems from that. Hence my interest in hydroponics
also. I really have a pretty good idea of how the hunter gatherer
societies work (ed) than many and how the transition to farming takes
place. This area is just delaying the inevitable. Man is but a dust
speck on Nature's watch.


good deal, and i'm glad you've had a full and
happy life in those many places and are now retired.
i'm retired too at the same age you speak of.
can't say i've lived in that many places, but
i have lived in more than one region of the
states and i've travelled most of the country
with the car, tent and sleeping bag being my
only home. i'm quite sure many others travel
on vacation and see things, but i think my
perspective was different from a tourist
because as i travelled i was continually
asking myself "is this a place i want to live?"


But for you and billy et al? You boys ever actually been anywhere,
done anything or seen anything besides the day trips on the Internet
to give you actual life experiences?


*shrug* i've spent a fair amount of time in
Canada and vacationed in a handful of other
countries. also i have a number of friends who
did time in the service or were in the peace
corps and spent a lot of time talking about
what the saw/did. like you some of my college
interest was anthropology, but also like you
i went a different route to make a living and
it was good, but that didn't mean i never
read a decent book about another culture
since then or never looked at a peer reviewed
journal.


As for the inference from the
Aussie that Americans are not well schooled in worldly affairs and
her continuous inference that Americans are stupid SOBs??? Well I
would hope she realizes billy is but one of 380 Mil and pretty much of
a Walter Mitty. You ? Don't know but I assume you have not traveled
from from your nest either .


seen all but a handful of the states (Rhode
Island, Maine, Alaska, Nevada, Arizona, Louisiana,
and Arkansas) and most of Canada that can be
driven to other than the far North East coast.


Perhaps Farml is very well traveled and
properly papered, yet I seriously doubt her myopic view is based on
much more than her internet travels she talks about.

so Birds, I hope you also have good luck in your next time.


"properly papered" makes me crack up.

peace,


songbird
  #12   Report Post  
Old 10-09-2011, 04:48 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 2,358
Default Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World

"songbird" wrote in message
...
FarmI wrote:
songbird wrote:

...
all very interesting. in other arid climates with
no severe drains/gullies you can line rocks across the
ground and they will act as a water catch when it
rains to slow down the water so that more soaks in.


Standard practice in permaculture and other forms of land management but
usually it's contour forming on farmland using a tractor/dozer and uses
earth. They're called swales.


ah, the usage i'm familiar with for those
is a sometimes marshy ground, not a particularly
made structure -- though i can see how the term
would be adapted/adopted for them too. the
made structures i would call dams.


Absolutley not a dam. They are just earthwork contour gutters (for want of
a better word to describe them).

here i call places seeps are catches where i
gather water from a harder rain. i wouldn't call
them swales because they are not marshy.


But swales don't have to be marshy and in fact I don't think I've ever seen
one that could be called marshy.

The function of swales is to slow down rain run off and let the water soak
in and recharge the soil with moisture. Thus swales work well in both arid
and dry temperate zones where the rainfall can come in fast and furious
bursts (like from passing storms) but where the rain is not sustainedfor a
long time. They probably also work in high rainfall areas to slow the flow
of water across a clandscape but where they arent' necesarrily needed to
give much needed soil moisture.


  #13   Report Post  
Old 10-09-2011, 05:59 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 2,438
Default Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Gunner wrote:
songbird wrote:
Gunner wrote:
Billy wrote:
Tropic of Chaos: Climate Change and the New Geography of Violence by
Christian Parenti (Jun 28, 2011)

Gunner writes
What a poorly written piece you present as evidence of organic best
practices. Do you really know about the hydrology or even the geology
of the area in this cherry picked book writers sociologist article?

To which the Birds reply:

oh well, better luck next time,


Better luck, Bird? You got a C- on your test questions and a D for
the essay defending stupid think. You generalize but you have no clue
as to the specific regional area billy's book writer is talking
about. Kinda like billy BSing about Mann and Biochar.


um, i never admitted to reading the book did i?
i can only base my replies upon what was quoted.


Africa? Well if you’re talking about the fact the two areas were once
one? Ok. If you’re talking about the effects of the Trade Winds from
Africa on that region? Ok. But the two drought/people are not
anywhere near similar. As for the cattle and disease problems unless
you wish to just split hairs on white man's guilt not relevant.


? cattle, disease problems? white man's guilt? do
you mean the fact that millions of natives were killed
by diseases brought from the old world to the new world?
i don't think there's much splitting of hairs to be
done there.


Still you do the math; 1.2 mil people living on very eco fragile land
that would realistically support 500K subsiding with assistance of a
government seed and stipend program. The water used in the primitive
drip irrigation the Catholic church is “translating” as some Organic
salvation is coming from some of the 7000 dams usually filled to ~50%
cap., most dry up in the many droughts they experience or some of the
many wells drilled by the government.


i'm still not seeing a negative from
encouraging a system which keeps the land
covered with multiple crops instead of a
monoculture.


The underground damming? Yes,
An old trick used in many lands for subsidence farming and basic
survival of a small number of people. A basic desert survival
technique I also taught . Try looking up the qanat for one such
trick. Farml’s one statement about her Country’s Aborigines using
such a trick is most likely true in their world of living off the
land but again, relevant how? I think there is a better land/people
distro as well as a different societal culture there.


the natives are not farmers there, they are
hunter-gatherers.


It is a given that area of Brazil will continue to experience more
severe droughts as well as erratic dry seasons in their march to
desertification.


desertification because of what?


Oh another small detail, much of the water is
trucked in the varying dry spells and droughts. So much for reducing
the carbon footprint.


i believe that the droughts would be much
worse when the land is monocultured and left
bare as compared to a system which keeps
the land covered and shaded as much as possible
from different plants.

yes, any shipping of water would be a negative
on the carbon footprint, but i don't think it
would be better under any other method of
farming either.

overall population reduction to be more in
line with the area's capacity to support them
is closer to sustainable agricultural principles
as far as i'm concerned.


As for the three sisters adaptation for ground
cover? Temporary as best. Building the soil bank. Ok! Still how long
will that last w/o water in that type sand, little to no clay
there.


i'm not talking three sisters for ground cover
i'm talking native plants that will grow if given
and chance and protected from overgrazing. this
is already a proven method in arid regions, but
you do need the people to cooperate in keeping
their animals from destroying the growth and you
need the people to not hack it apart for firewood
or fencing more than it can bear. if the region
is stable enough (has some form of government
strong enough to keep wars from breaking out and
ruining longer term projects) then it can do a
lot. from a simple thing like a line of rocks.


I will assume you’re not very familiar with desert life and
primitive cultures.


ok, and you criticize me for jumping
off from points unsubstatiated? heheh, ok...


As Farml also inferred you can get a lot of
information off of the internet these days, just how much is true. I
much prefer dot.edu rather than the many book writers living off of
“we are the world”.coms that billy pretends is organo.


i don't mind questioning information and
challenging it and talking about it to see
what might make sense and what might not.
what i do mind is calling people religious
fanatics just because they do things
differently.


As for your do you?


? no idea what you mean.


when i write my gardening stuff here i write
what i am actually doing. if i have a failure
i admit it and keep working at it.


Yes, I really do bird, geology/hydrology is in the family. My
interest was in archaeology and anthropology but was talked out of it
by a Prof before I went the military route. No regrets, all set up &
retired @ 48, been enjoying life since. I've lived in in three
countries and every state west of the Mississippi before I was 11
because of geology. Now days, 4 continents and 15-16 countries. My
interest today in anthropology, particularly in the Amerindians and
desert living stems from that. Hence my interest in hydroponics
also. I really have a pretty good idea of how the hunter gatherer
societies work (ed) than many and how the transition to farming takes
place. This area is just delaying the inevitable. Man is but a dust
speck on Nature's watch.


good deal, and i'm glad you've had a full and
happy life in those many places and are now retired.
i'm retired too at the same age you speak of.
can't say i've lived in that many places, but
i have lived in more than one region of the
states and i've travelled most of the country
with the car, tent and sleeping bag being my
only home. i'm quite sure many others travel
on vacation and see things, but i think my
perspective was different from a tourist
because as i travelled i was continually
asking myself "is this a place i want to live?"


But for you and billy et al? You boys ever actually been anywhere,
done anything or seen anything besides the day trips on the Internet
to give you actual life experiences?


*shrug* i've spent a fair amount of time in
Canada and vacationed in a handful of other
countries. also i have a number of friends who
did time in the service or were in the peace
corps and spent a lot of time talking about
what the saw/did. like you some of my college
interest was anthropology, but also like you
i went a different route to make a living and
it was good, but that didn't mean i never
read a decent book about another culture
since then or never looked at a peer reviewed
journal.


As for the inference from the
Aussie that Americans are not well schooled in worldly affairs and
her continuous inference that Americans are stupid SOBs??? Well I
would hope she realizes billy is but one of 380 Mil and pretty much of
a Walter Mitty. You ? Don't know but I assume you have not traveled
from from your nest either .


seen all but a handful of the states (Rhode
Island, Maine, Alaska, Nevada, Arizona, Louisiana,
and Arkansas) and most of Canada that can be
driven to other than the far North East coast.


Perhaps Farml is very well traveled and
properly papered, yet I seriously doubt her myopic view is based on
much more than her internet travels she talks about.

so Birds, I hope you also have good luck in your next time.


"properly papered" makes me crack up.

peace,


songbird


As usual, gunny has lots of opinions, but no citations to back up his
wacky assertions. Poor gunny tries to justify himself, but with so many
book writers (sociologists, don't ya know) disagreeing with him, all he
can do is to say that he is right and everybody else is wrong. What he
needs to do is to submit countervailing opinions from his own
persuasion, but sadly for gunny, there are few who agree with him.
Why would that be??! Could it be (gasp) that gunny is wrong?
Very likely.
--
- Billy
Both the House and Senate budget plan would have cut Social Security and Medicare, while cutting taxes on the wealthy.

Kucinich noted that none of the government programs targeted for
elimination or severe cutback in House Republican spending plans
"appeared on the GAO's list of government programs at high risk of
waste, fraud and abuse."
http://www.politifact.com/ohio/state...is-kucinich/re
p-dennis-kucinich-says-gop-budget-cuts-dont-targ/

[W]e have the situation with the deficit and the debt and spending and jobs. And it’s not that difficult to get out of it. The first thing you do is you get rid of corporate welfare. That’s hundreds of billions of dollars a year. The second is you tax corporations so that they don’t get away with no taxation.
- Ralph Nader
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/7/19/ralph_naders_solution_to_debt_crisis
  #14   Report Post  
Old 10-09-2011, 05:57 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 330
Default Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World

I leave the wacky to you, it seems to be your forte.
However, do show me anywhere that Parenti is a anything more than a
writer, his bona fides read like he is a book writer.
http://www.christianparenti.com/bio/
Perhaps you have some other information to contradict this that you
wish to share?

As for “citations”, here is a few to skim through since I know you
don’t ever read much of what you cherry pick for your BS propaganda.
If you still pretend you need some more I will be visiting the PLU
Library here in a few weeks and will get you some of those as well.
However you will need to get either academic or paid access to those.
Do note these are not the dot coms fringe political editorial
references you always posting , so again, be cautious in your cherry
picking to support your propaganda without actually reading, like you
did recently with Mann, etc. . That pattern shows a proclivity
towards lying to support your political activism agenda.

http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstr...ant_thesis.pdf
http://spot.colorado.edu/~carpenh/Magkos.pdf
http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/3/680.full.pdf
http://water.columbia.edu/?id=Brazil&navid=Ceara
http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1.../hysj.51.1.157
http://iahs.info/hsj/495/hysj_49_05_0901.pdf
http://www.wamis.org/agm/meetings/emndp11/S4-Brazil.pdf
https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/in...ticle/.../1935
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/br.html

Just for you billy boy, I will include a googly since you avoid
any .edu “citations”:
http://books.google.com/ebooks?id=zq4_AAAAYAAJ
  #15   Report Post  
Old 10-09-2011, 08:45 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 330
Default Organic Gardening in a Hotter, Drier World

I really do not have the time today to wrestle the pig, but I promise
I will address your points if there really are any bird. The first
time I read I did not see any but still. Meantime go read some of
the references I gave billy below as well as Milpa & swidden
Understand you are talking about monoculture. Don't know where native
plants came in.

Still subsidies are subsidies regardless of who they go to. Get the
people a real job instead of giving them water, seed and money to
continue to screwing up the fragile eco system of this arid regions.


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