I have a drilled well that goes down 220'. When it was drilled in 1995, the
pH that came back with the first water test was 7.0, perfectly neutral.

Over the years, I've had some plants begin to give me problems that took a
while for me to notice developing as I thought it was just a year to year
change in local conditions.

This year, in the spring while natural rain was sufficient, I remember
remarking to my wife, 'Go look at the cucumbers if you want to see some nice
dark green foliage.' During the past few years, my cukes have dropped off in
production and the leaves are more yellow than dark green. This year we made
no cucumber pickles and barely had enough for sandwiches.

I maintain a totally organic garden making compost & using some aged hen
manure that is mixed with softwood chips in their bedding, so I doubted that
the yellow leaves came from a lack of nitrogen. Also, these are raised beds
(3' x 10' x 10") and have good drainage.

This year, after testing the mother-in-laws water and finding a level of
coliforms higher than zero, I retested my own. I found that my pH had risen
to 8.7.

But before testing, as the springs rain slowed, I began using a 'wand'
waterer on my hose which puts down a lot of water fast. Within a couple of
weeks, I noticed that the cukes were yellowing, my zukes wouldn't set fruit,
indeterminate tomatoes failed to achieve their usual height and her garlic
shriveled up and disappeared.

I sifted the garlic bed and saved all the bulbs I could find. In August, we
got 18" of rain & I stopped watering with the well water. New garlic
sprouted from the tiny bulbs I missed and are still growing lushly.

I'm going to switch to rain water next year. However, I can't find anything
when I search on the effects of high pH water on plants. Nor have I any idea
why my pH would change. Anyone else seen this happen?
--
Wilson 44.69, -67.3

In article , Wilson
wrote:

I have a drilled well that goes down 220'. When it was drilled in 1995, the
pH that came back with the first water test was 7.0, perfectly neutral.

Over the years, I've had some plants begin to give me problems that took a
while for me to notice developing as I thought it was just a year to year
change in local conditions.

This year, in the spring while natural rain was sufficient, I remember
remarking to my wife, 'Go look at the cucumbers if you want to see some nice
dark green foliage.' During the past few years, my cukes have dropped off in
production and the leaves are more yellow than dark green. This year we made
no cucumber pickles and barely had enough for sandwiches.

I maintain a totally organic garden making compost & using some aged hen
manure that is mixed with softwood chips in their bedding, so I doubted that
the yellow leaves came from a lack of nitrogen. Also, these are raised beds
(3' x 10' x 10") and have good drainage.

This year, after testing the mother-in-laws water and finding a level of
coliforms higher than zero, I retested my own. I found that my pH had risen
to 8.7.

But before testing, as the springs rain slowed, I began using a 'wand'
waterer on my hose which puts down a lot of water fast. Within a couple of
weeks, I noticed that the cukes were yellowing, my zukes wouldn't set fruit,
indeterminate tomatoes failed to achieve their usual height and her garlic
shriveled up and disappeared.

I sifted the garlic bed and saved all the bulbs I could find. In August, we
got 18" of rain & I stopped watering with the well water. New garlic
sprouted from the tiny bulbs I missed and are still growing lushly.

I'm going to switch to rain water next year. However, I can't find anything
when I search on the effects of high pH water on plants. Nor have I any idea
why my pH would change. Anyone else seen this happen?

No.

Who are your neighbors (residential, commercial, bucolic), and could
they be affecting your well?

Lots of alkalin water on well drained soil, will affect its pH. Sulfur
is your friend.

http://www1.agric.gov.ab.ca/$department/deptdocs.nsf/all/agdex6607

Otherwise it is the usual litany: where are you, what agricultural zone,
what kind of soil, what is the soil pH, and how much sun do you get?
--
- Billy

E pluribus unum
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=96993722

Wilson wrote:
I have a drilled well that goes down 220'. When it was drilled in
1995, the pH that came back with the first water test was 7.0,
perfectly neutral.
Over the years, I've had some plants begin to give me problems that
took a while for me to notice developing as I thought it was just a
year to year change in local conditions.

This year, in the spring while natural rain was sufficient, I remember
remarking to my wife, 'Go look at the cucumbers if you want to see
some nice dark green foliage.' During the past few years, my cukes
have dropped off in production and the leaves are more yellow than
dark green. This year we made no cucumber pickles and barely had
enough for sandwiches.
I maintain a totally organic garden making compost & using some aged
hen manure that is mixed with softwood chips in their bedding, so I
doubted that the yellow leaves came from a lack of nitrogen. Also,
these are raised beds (3' x 10' x 10") and have good drainage.

This year, after testing the mother-in-laws water and finding a level
of coliforms higher than zero, I retested my own. I found that my pH
had risen to 8.7.

But before testing, as the springs rain slowed, I began using a 'wand'
waterer on my hose which puts down a lot of water fast. Within a
couple of weeks, I noticed that the cukes were yellowing, my zukes
wouldn't set fruit, indeterminate tomatoes failed to achieve their
usual height and her garlic shriveled up and disappeared.

I sifted the garlic bed and saved all the bulbs I could find. In
August, we got 18" of rain & I stopped watering with the well water.
New garlic sprouted from the tiny bulbs I missed and are still
growing lushly.
I'm going to switch to rain water next year. However, I can't find
anything when I search on the effects of high pH water on plants. Nor
have I any idea why my pH would change. Anyone else seen this happen?

I have no idea why the pH of your well water changed but I doubt you can
alter it. I also doubt that the water is doing much directly to your plants
but it may be altering the pH of your soil which will make a difference.
The effect of high pH in the soil is to lock up some minerals by making them
less soluble, this produces deficiencies in plants. A pH of 8.7 is quite
high for a garden soil, not that it is certain your soil will necessarily be
that high just because you are using water of that pH.

You should test the pH of your soil before going any further. I find the
best kind of test is using dye indicators, a kit will cost maybe $20 and
will do many tests. These kits are sufficiently accurate and reliable for
the purpose, cheap electrical probe systems are not. I would stop using
that water except in emergencies as it will slowly deposit minerals in your
soil that will eventually raise the pH of the soil. For most plants (there
are exceptions) a pH of about 6-7 is desired. If your soil's pH has in fact
risen much above 7 you may have to amend it to lower it again or stick to
alkali tolerant plants.

David

On Dec 4, 9:41*am, Wilson wrote:

--
Wilson 44.69, -67.3

44.69, -67.3 : Long/Lat? Acadia region of Maine? If so, have you
considered seawater infiltration? This link is bit wordy but it may
give some hydrology insight: http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/2003/circ1...ading156057192
as well as: http://www.maine.gov/doc/nrimc/mgs/e...k/section4.htm
..

From a hydrological or geological aspect, its highly unlikely any
watering in your life time is going to reach 200+ ft depth. So it is
also highly unlikely that surface contaminants are involved in your
water from either you or your neighbors If you ARE in Maine, pretty
much granite thus iron, isn't it? Don't see much limestone sources
in your region as a possible. Regardless, it would take a huge amount
of minerals (organic or inorganic) to change a pH factor by 1.7.

So with your stated practices and my region guess, it doesn't sound
like your soil is the causative here and 8.7 is in pH range of
seawater. So you may have or had zones of seawater infiltration in
your aquifer, ergo, a myriad of elements would be present that would
cause your plant's chlorosis. Consider an analysis beyond pH testing
as proper protocol to specifically identify what is going on and take
immediate corrective action. Otherwise, you risk test trials of
every Garden Guru's " have ya tried..." theory. Those are usually
based on highly biased folk lore and/or personal bent which usually
just eat up time and money.

Recommend as a start you give your County AG Extension office a call
as well as have your water analyzed for more than just pH and test
your present soil conditions to see where they stand. Think about it a
minute... with today's testing procedures, you would mostly likely
have already had a scientific starting point and a course of action
plan to test off of.

Good luck Wilson and please update what and how you do.

On 12/04/11 4:27 PM, sometime in the recent past David Hare-Scott posted this:
Wilson wrote:
I have a drilled well that goes down 220'. When it was drilled in
1995, the pH that came back with the first water test was 7.0,
perfectly neutral.
Over the years, I've had some plants begin to give me problems that
took a while for me to notice developing as I thought it was just a
year to year change in local conditions.

This year, in the spring while natural rain was sufficient, I remember
remarking to my wife, 'Go look at the cucumbers if you want to see
some nice dark green foliage.' During the past few years, my cukes
have dropped off in production and the leaves are more yellow than
dark green. This year we made no cucumber pickles and barely had
enough for sandwiches.
I maintain a totally organic garden making compost & using some aged
hen manure that is mixed with softwood chips in their bedding, so I
doubted that the yellow leaves came from a lack of nitrogen. Also,
these are raised beds (3' x 10' x 10") and have good drainage.

This year, after testing the mother-in-laws water and finding a level
of coliforms higher than zero, I retested my own. I found that my pH
had risen to 8.7.

But before testing, as the springs rain slowed, I began using a 'wand'
waterer on my hose which puts down a lot of water fast. Within a
couple of weeks, I noticed that the cukes were yellowing, my zukes
wouldn't set fruit, indeterminate tomatoes failed to achieve their
usual height and her garlic shriveled up and disappeared.

I sifted the garlic bed and saved all the bulbs I could find. In
August, we got 18" of rain & I stopped watering with the well water.
New garlic sprouted from the tiny bulbs I missed and are still
growing lushly.
I'm going to switch to rain water next year. However, I can't find
anything when I search on the effects of high pH water on plants. Nor
have I any idea why my pH would change. Anyone else seen this happen?

I have no idea why the pH of your well water changed but I doubt you can
alter it. I also doubt that the water is doing much directly to your plants
but it may be altering the pH of your soil which will make a difference. The
effect of high pH in the soil is to lock up some minerals by making them
less soluble, this produces deficiencies in plants. A pH of 8.7 is quite
high for a garden soil, not that it is certain your soil will necessarily be
that high just because you are using water of that pH.

You should test the pH of your soil before going any further. I find the
best kind of test is using dye indicators, a kit will cost maybe $20 and
will do many tests. These kits are sufficiently accurate and reliable for
the purpose, cheap electrical probe systems are not. I would stop using that
water except in emergencies as it will slowly deposit minerals in your soil
that will eventually raise the pH of the soil. For most plants (there are
exceptions) a pH of about 6-7 is desired. If your soil's pH has in fact
risen much above 7 you may have to amend it to lower it again or stick to
alkali tolerant plants.

David
I have both the probe type pH tester & the liquid ones. Never put much stock
in the liquid type as it seems rather subjective to try to determine the
proper color of now muddied water. Also, if I use my well water (pH 8.7) to
perform the test, won't my reading be higher than if I used distilled water
with a pH of 7.0? Going one further, if my soil is higher or lower than 7.0,
won't distilled water move the results toward the neutral 7.0?

But my real question is about the effect of continued high pH or alkaline
water on my plants. I can tell you it's not neutral from my experience, but
am at a loss as to why I can't find info on when I search.

Like I said, it will be rain water for me next year or I might try to adjust
a 50 gal. barrel of well water with some 5% acid vinegar. Now, if I could
just find a good formula or equation for calculating the amount of vinegar
to adjust 50 gals. of pH 8.7 water down to say 6.5, I might be in good shape.

Thanks to you & Billy for your replies.

--
Wilson 44.69, -67.3

On 12/07/11 7:52 PM, sometime in the recent past Gunner posted this:
On Dec 4, 9:41 am, wrote:

--
Wilson 44.69, -67.3

44.69, -67.3 : Long/Lat? Acadia region of Maine? If so, have you
considered seawater infiltration? This link is bit wordy but it may
give some hydrology insight: http://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/2003/circ1...ading156057192
as well as: http://www.maine.gov/doc/nrimc/mgs/e...k/section4.htm
.

From a hydrological or geological aspect, its highly unlikely any
watering in your life time is going to reach 200+ ft depth. So it is
also highly unlikely that surface contaminants are involved in your
water from either you or your neighbors If you ARE in Maine, pretty
much granite thus iron, isn't it? Don't see much limestone sources
in your region as a possible. Regardless, it would take a huge amount
of minerals (organic or inorganic) to change a pH factor by 1.7.

So with your stated practices and my region guess, it doesn't sound
like your soil is the causative here and 8.7 is in pH range of
seawater. So you may have or had zones of seawater infiltration in
your aquifer, ergo, a myriad of elements would be present that would
cause your plant's chlorosis. Consider an analysis beyond pH testing
as proper protocol to specifically identify what is going on and take
immediate corrective action. Otherwise, you risk test trials of
every Garden Guru's " have ya tried..." theory. Those are usually
based on highly biased folk lore and/or personal bent which usually
just eat up time and money.

Recommend as a start you give your County AG Extension office a call
as well as have your water analyzed for more than just pH and test
your present soil conditions to see where they stand. Think about it a
minute... with today's testing procedures, you would mostly likely
have already had a scientific starting point and a course of action
plan to test off of.

Good luck Wilson and please update what and how you do.
You have my area correct and we do hear from time to time that drilled wells
are high in salt & need to be re-drilled. As you said, ground level activity
isn't likely to affect the aquifer 200+ feet down unless some sort of crack
in the ledge runs vertical.

The one thing that concerns me is that, while I'm in an area with low
population density and am, in fact, living in the woods, I live near a Navy
base which has been 'abandoned' and rezoned for housing. This base had it's
own reservoir & water treatment plant, but since giving it away to the town,
almost everyone of the houses on the base has had a drilled well put in and
all are within a half mile of my well. I suspect that these new wells have
put such a demand on the aquifer that the flow pattern of the aquifer might
have been changed. And yes, I'm within a half mile from the ocean, so sea
water sounds more plausible if the base wells have lowered the 'pressure' of
aquifer resulting in new sources feeding it. God, I hope that isn't the case.

As for my failed garlic crop, I had that raised bed tested this past summer
and the soil tested with a pH of 7.2.

--
Wilson 44.69, -67.3

Wilson wrote:
On 12/04/11 4:27 PM, sometime in the recent past David Hare-Scott
posted this:
Wilson wrote:
I have a drilled well that goes down 220'. When it was drilled in
1995, the pH that came back with the first water test was 7.0,
perfectly neutral.
Over the years, I've had some plants begin to give me problems that
took a while for me to notice developing as I thought it was just a
year to year change in local conditions.

This year, in the spring while natural rain was sufficient, I
remember remarking to my wife, 'Go look at the cucumbers if you
want to see some nice dark green foliage.' During the past few
years, my cukes have dropped off in production and the leaves are
more yellow than dark green. This year we made no cucumber pickles
and barely had enough for sandwiches.
I maintain a totally organic garden making compost & using some aged
hen manure that is mixed with softwood chips in their bedding, so I
doubted that the yellow leaves came from a lack of nitrogen. Also,
these are raised beds (3' x 10' x 10") and have good drainage.

This year, after testing the mother-in-laws water and finding a
level of coliforms higher than zero, I retested my own. I found
that my pH had risen to 8.7.

But before testing, as the springs rain slowed, I began using a
'wand' waterer on my hose which puts down a lot of water fast.
Within a couple of weeks, I noticed that the cukes were yellowing,
my zukes wouldn't set fruit, indeterminate tomatoes failed to
achieve their usual height and her garlic shriveled up and
disappeared. I sifted the garlic bed and saved all the bulbs I could
find. In
August, we got 18" of rain & I stopped watering with the well water.
New garlic sprouted from the tiny bulbs I missed and are still
growing lushly.
I'm going to switch to rain water next year. However, I can't find
anything when I search on the effects of high pH water on plants.
Nor have I any idea why my pH would change. Anyone else seen this
happen?

I have no idea why the pH of your well water changed but I doubt you
can alter it. I also doubt that the water is doing much directly to
your plants but it may be altering the pH of your soil which will
make a difference. The effect of high pH in the soil is to lock up
some minerals by making them less soluble, this produces
deficiencies in plants. A pH of 8.7 is quite high for a garden soil,
not that it is certain your soil will necessarily be that high just
because you are using water of that pH. You should test the pH of your
soil before going any further. I find
the best kind of test is using dye indicators, a kit will cost maybe
$20 and will do many tests. These kits are sufficiently accurate and
reliable for the purpose, cheap electrical probe systems are not. I
would stop using that water except in emergencies as it will slowly
deposit minerals in your soil that will eventually raise the pH of
the soil. For most plants (there are exceptions) a pH of about 6-7
is desired. If your soil's pH has in fact risen much above 7 you may
have to amend it to lower it again or stick to alkali tolerant
plants. David
I have both the probe type pH tester & the liquid ones. Never put
much stock in the liquid type as it seems rather subjective to try to
determine the proper color of now muddied water.

I have not had that problem as the one that I have comes with an insoluble
white powder that is use to give a constant colour to read the dye against.
Also I don't know why you have muddy water the dye indicator I use works on
a solid sample. The _cheap_ probe sort are not reliable in my experience as
they depend on water content of the soil to get a reading, the expensive
ones (ie glass electrode) can be up to laboratory standard.

So what is the pH of your soil by each method?


Also, if I use my
well water (pH 8.7) to perform the test, won't my reading be higher
than if I used distilled water with a pH of 7.0?

Why do you need any water to perform the test? Both systems ought to work
without it. What brand of dye indicator do you have, does the manufacturer
have a web site?


Going one further,
if my soil is higher or lower than 7.0, won't distilled water move
the results toward the neutral 7.0?

Not appreciably but it's a non issue - see above.


But my real question is about the effect of continued high pH or
alkaline water on my plants. I can tell you it's not neutral from my
experience, but am at a loss as to why I can't find info on when I
search.

I explained this before, pH determines the solubility of minerals which
determines their availability to the plants. There are many thousands of
references to this on the web I cannot understand how you can't find one.

Start he

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_pH


Like I said, it will be rain water for me next year or I might try to
adjust a 50 gal. barrel of well water with some 5% acid vinegar. Now,
if I could just find a good formula or equation for calculating the
amount of vinegar to adjust 50 gals. of pH 8.7 water down to say 6.5, I
might be in
good shape.

You will not find 'a good formula' to adjust the pH of your water, it isn't
that simple. Also if you can water your garden satisfactorily with a 50
gal barrel you could use rain or tap water and forget all about the well,
assuming that the well water is in fact the cause of your problems.



Thanks to you & Billy for your replies.

There is no certainty the soil is as alkaline as the water you put on it.
Until you tell us the pH of your soil there isn't much more to say.


David