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#1
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a small study of rotting
towards the end of December i had bags of
left over soybean husks to use eventually in the worm bins. not wanting to pass up a good chance of comparing processes i took some worm castings (about a dry quart) and added them to layers of wetted husks and then kept the bin moist. i started one bin and then a few weeks later started a second bin. both had more husks added to them as they compacted. two bins eventually held five bins of husks. if i'd continued the test i could have added another today (about two months from the start date). as noted in another thread recently the fungi side of the rotting equation is somewhat oriented towards acidic and ammonia. i noticed last week that things were starting to get a little strong smelling, but was hoping it would pass. it didn't. the bacteria in the worm castings alone could not keep up with the fungi without their worm hosts to keep the bedding aerated and stirred. today i broke apart the first bin and added it to the worm bins. digging into it was like opening a bottle of ammonia. phew! tomorrow i'll hope to get to the second bin. in the end, the compaction and rotting by fungi, etc of the worm free bins was good for getting space back, but the smell and having to then process it anyways in a second stage didn't save much. for the storage considerations it was much easier to store dry bean husks than to have more bins. much lighter. this next season i hope to not have quite so much late husking to do and that will keep the shells outside and in the ground as fast as i can get them buried. we'll see... songbird |
#2
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a small study of rotting
"songbird" wrote in message ... towards the end of December i had bags of left over soybean husks to use eventually in the worm bins. not wanting to pass up a good chance of comparing processes i took some worm castings (about a dry quart) and added them to layers of wetted husks and then kept the bin moist. i started one bin and then a few weeks later started a second bin. both had more husks added to them as they compacted. two bins eventually held five bins of husks. if i'd continued the test i could have added another today (about two months from the start date). as noted in another thread recently the fungi side of the rotting equation is somewhat oriented towards acidic and ammonia. i noticed last week that things were starting to get a little strong smelling, but was hoping it would pass. it didn't. the bacteria in the worm castings alone could not keep up with the fungi without their worm hosts to keep the bedding aerated and stirred. today i broke apart the first bin and added it to the worm bins. digging into it was like opening a bottle of ammonia. phew! tomorrow i'll hope to get to the second bin. in the end, the compaction and rotting by fungi, etc of the worm free bins was good for getting space back, but the smell and having to then process it anyways in a second stage didn't save much. for the storage considerations it was much easier to store dry bean husks than to have more bins. much lighter. this next season i hope to not have quite so much late husking to do and that will keep the shells outside and in the ground as fast as i can get them buried. we'll see... songbird What a shame, when one smells ammonia one is loosing nitrogen. Steve |
#3
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a small study of rotting
In article ,
songbird wrote: towards the end of December i had bags of left over soybean husks to use eventually in the worm bins. not wanting to pass up a good chance of comparing processes i took some worm castings (about a dry quart) and added them to layers of wetted husks and then kept the bin moist. i started one bin and then a few weeks later started a second bin. both had more husks added to them as they compacted. two bins eventually held five bins of husks. if i'd continued the test i could have added another today (about two months from the start date). as noted in another thread recently the fungi side of the rotting equation is somewhat oriented towards acidic and ammonia. Ammonia is basic. i noticed last week that things were starting to get a little strong smelling, but was hoping it would pass. it didn't. the bacteria in the worm castings alone could not keep up with the fungi without their worm hosts to keep the bedding aerated and stirred. today i broke apart the first bin and added it to the worm bins. digging into it was like opening a bottle of ammonia. phew! tomorrow i'll hope to get to the second bin. in the end, the compaction and rotting by fungi, etc of the worm free bins was good for getting space back, but the smell and having to then process it anyways in a second stage didn't save much. for the storage considerations it was much easier to store dry bean husks than to have more bins. much lighter. this next season i hope to not have quite so much late husking to do and that will keep the shells outside and in the ground as fast as i can get them buried. we'll see... songbird Sounds like not enough brown/too much green. You want 25/1, B/G -- Billy E Pluribus Unum Palestinian Villages May Soon Go Dark Once Again http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,815476,00.html |
#4
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a small study of rotting
Steve Peek wrote:
.... What a shame, when one smells ammonia one is loosing nitrogen. righto. both bins are now in the worm bins. the second bin didn't have the same ammonia smell. the worms will sort it out before spring. they have a few months. it was a good test to see though if the worm casting innoculant of the soybean husks would be enough bacterial population to keep the fungi from dominating. it didn't. so test done. worms added. all is well. ammonia smelly husks now buried in several inches of worms and dirt. songbird |
#5
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a small study of rotting
Billy wrote:
.... Sounds like not enough brown/too much green. You want 25/1, B/G i wasn't aiming for composting in the bin. i was aiming to test if the worm castings would contain enough bacteria to control fungi. the answer i got was no. if i were composting in a bin i surely would have adjusted the proportions appropriately and mixed from time to time. as it goes, the bins here, i decidedly do not want them getting into a hot stage of composting. Ma would get a bit upset if she could smell anything. which is why worm composting works well. songbird |
#6
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a small study of rotting
In article ,
songbird wrote: Billy wrote: ... Sounds like not enough brown/too much green. You want 25/1, B/G i wasn't aiming for composting in the bin. i was aiming to test if the worm castings would contain enough bacteria to control fungi. the answer i got was no. if i were composting in a bin i surely would have adjusted the proportions appropriately and mixed from time to time. as it goes, the bins here, i decidedly do not want them getting into a hot stage of composting. Ma would get a bit upset if she could smell anything. which is why worm composting works well. songbird Apparently the bacteria, and the fungi didn't get the message that you weren't composting. What did you expect to happen when you threw a bunch of organic material together? -- Billy E Pluribus Unum Palestinian Villages May Soon Go Dark Once Again http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,815476,00.html |
#7
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a small study of rotting
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote: Billy wrote: ... Sounds like not enough brown/too much green. You want 25/1, B/G i wasn't aiming for composting in the bin. i was aiming to test if the worm castings would contain enough bacteria to control fungi. the answer i got was no. if i were composting in a bin i surely would have adjusted the proportions appropriately and mixed from time to time. as it goes, the bins here, i decidedly do not want them getting into a hot stage of composting. Ma would get a bit upset if she could smell anything. which is why worm composting works well. Apparently the bacteria, and the fungi didn't get the message that you weren't composting. What did you expect to happen when you threw a bunch of organic material together? the expectation was that some form of rot would happen. i consider composting to be quite different than rotting. which is why i called it a small study of rotting and not a small study of composting. i did not know specifically what would happen. that's why i did it. to answer the question about bacteria in worm castings. to see if castings were enough on their own to moderate or control fungi. at the rate of application of one dry quart to seventeen dry quarts of husks, the answer is no. songbird |
#8
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a small study of rotting
In article ,
songbird wrote: Billy wrote: songbird wrote: Billy wrote: ... Sounds like not enough brown/too much green. You want 25/1, B/G i wasn't aiming for composting in the bin. i was aiming to test if the worm castings would contain enough bacteria to control fungi. the answer i got was no. if i were composting in a bin i surely would have adjusted the proportions appropriately and mixed from time to time. as it goes, the bins here, i decidedly do not want them getting into a hot stage of composting. Ma would get a bit upset if she could smell anything. which is why worm composting works well. Apparently the bacteria, and the fungi didn't get the message that you weren't composting. What did you expect to happen when you threw a bunch of organic material together? the expectation was that some form of rot would happen. i consider composting to be quite different than rotting. which is why i called it a small study of rotting and not a small study of composting. i did not know specifically what would happen. that's why i did it. to answer the question about bacteria in worm castings. to see if castings were enough on their own to moderate or control fungi. at the rate of application of one dry quart to seventeen dry quarts of husks, the answer is no. songbird Since fungi create a low pH environment, and bacteria a high pH one (relatively speaking), it appears the bacteria won (NH4 = pH 7). -- Billy E Pluribus Unum Palestinian Villages May Soon Go Dark Once Again http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,815476,00.html |
#9
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a small study of rotting
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote: .... control fungi. at the rate of application of one dry quart to seventeen dry quarts of husks, the answer is no. Since fungi create a low pH environment, and bacteria a high pH one (relatively speaking), it appears the bacteria won (NH4 = pH 7). the bin was full of fungi and smelled of ammonia. hmm... now i'm really confused. hahaha... ok. can't revisit atm, experiment terminated, until next supply of husks comes around. as side notes, usually in the dirt the bacteria include species of nitrogen fixers and consumers of ammonia so it is very rare for me to smell ammonia coming from dirt unless i've happened to hit a localized heavy spot of organic material being decomposed by fungi. if what you say is true that would be the reverse case wouldn't it? do you smell ammonia when you work in your garden soil as compared to what you smell when messing with the soil/mulch layer boundary? so i do really think that if the bacteria had indeed won i would not have been smelling ammonia. the pH was not measured for either bin so i can't say what it was. i do know that the innoculating worm castings and soil had nitrogen fixing bacteria present because much of it was taken from the same bin from top to bottom. so there were anaerobes as well as aerobes in there. if i dig to the bottom of any of the bins i'll find the methane/boggy smell, but the soil above (and the bacteria) filter/consume the smell/methane before it gets out. the worms have no trouble with the bottoms of the bins. their tunnels either let them get enough oxygen or they are daytripping downstairs for nummies and then coming up for oxygen later. songbird |
#10
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a small study of rotting
In article ,
songbird wrote: Billy wrote: songbird wrote: ... control fungi. at the rate of application of one dry quart to seventeen dry quarts of husks, the answer is no. Since fungi create a low pH environment, and bacteria a high pH one (relatively speaking), it appears the bacteria won (NH4 = pH 7). the bin was full of fungi and smelled of ammonia. hmm... now i'm really confused. hahaha... ok. can't revisit atm, experiment terminated, until next supply of husks comes around. as side notes, usually in the dirt the bacteria include species of nitrogen fixers and consumers of ammonia so it is very rare for me to smell ammonia coming from dirt unless i've happened to hit a localized heavy spot of organic material being decomposed by fungi. Nitrogen fixers convert N2 to NH3. The plant uses the NH3. if what you say is true that would be the reverse case wouldn't it? do you smell ammonia when you work in your garden soil as compared to what you smell when messing with the soil/mulch layer boundary? I never smell ammonia (NH3) in the soil, but I do, rarely, in the mulch when the mulch is very thick .50cm. Decomposition of amino acids (acid + NH3) can be a strictly chemical reaction. so i do really think that if the bacteria had indeed won i would not have been smelling ammonia. the pH was not measured for either bin so i can't say what it was. Ammonia is basic: pH7. Bacteria like basic soils. i do know that the innoculating worm castings and soil had nitrogen fixing bacteria present because much of it was taken from the same bin from top to bottom. so there were anaerobes as well as aerobes in there. if i dig to the bottom of any of the bins i'll find the methane/boggy smell, Methane has no smell. Gas companies add H2S to it so that it has a recognizable oder. but the soil above (and the bacteria) filter/consume the smell/methane before it gets out. I have never heard of methane consuming bacteria. If so, they would love the frozen tundra which releases incredible amounts of methane (greenhouse gas) as it thaws. the worms have no trouble with the bottoms of the bins. their tunnels either let them get enough oxygen or they are daytripping downstairs for nummies and then coming up for oxygen later. songbird -- Billy E Pluribus Unum Palestinian Villages May Soon Go Dark Once Again http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,815476,00.html |
#11
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a small study of rotting
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote: Billy wrote: songbird wrote: ... control fungi. at the rate of application of one dry quart to seventeen dry quarts of husks, the answer is no. Since fungi create a low pH environment, and bacteria a high pH one (relatively speaking), it appears the bacteria won (NH4 = pH 7). the bin was full of fungi and smelled of ammonia. hmm... now i'm really confused. hahaha... ok. can't revisit atm, experiment terminated, until next supply of husks comes around. as side notes, usually in the dirt the bacteria include species of nitrogen fixers and consumers of ammonia so it is very rare for me to smell ammonia coming from dirt unless i've happened to hit a localized heavy spot of organic material being decomposed by fungi. Nitrogen fixers convert N2 to NH3. The plant uses the NH3. and there are bacteria that will turn it back into the gas form again. if what you say is true that would be the reverse case wouldn't it? do you smell ammonia when you work in your garden soil as compared to what you smell when messing with the soil/mulch layer boundary? I never smell ammonia (NH3) in the soil, but I do, rarely, in the mulch when the mulch is very thick .50cm. Decomposition of amino acids (acid + NH3) can be a strictly chemical reaction. half a cm of mulch is not much mulch at all. did you mean 5cm? i'm thinking of several inches of mulch at least for when i notice it. the bin was about 30cm of soybean husks. the note about it being a strictly chemical process is interesting, but in a bin mixed with worm castings laden with fungi and bacteria i can't imagine there being much of that going on that was not mediated by either fungi or bacteria. the entire bin from top to bottom was full of spores. so i do really think that if the bacteria had indeed won i would not have been smelling ammonia. the pH was not measured for either bin so i can't say what it was. Ammonia is basic: pH7. Bacteria like basic soils. yep. but they'll be around in other soils too. there's really not many places that bacteria will not colonize given a chance. i do know that the innoculating worm castings and soil had nitrogen fixing bacteria present because much of it was taken from the same bin from top to bottom. so there were anaerobes as well as aerobes in there. if i dig to the bottom of any of the bins i'll find the methane/boggy smell, Methane has no smell. Gas companies add H2S to it so that it has a recognizable oder. ah yes. hydrogen sulfide is part of the swampy smell. but the soil above (and the bacteria) filter/consume the smell/methane before it gets out. I have never heard of methane consuming bacteria. If so, they would love the frozen tundra which releases incredible amounts of methane (greenhouse gas) as it thaws. i'd be sure they are at the boundary, but it being so cold they are probably limited by the frozeness below and the more active/warmer bacteria, etc. above. if there is an energy source there is likely a bacteria that feeds off it (i would not be surprised if there were a bacteria that also feed off nuclear reactions too). songbird |
#12
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a small study of rotting
In article ,
songbird wrote: Billy wrote: songbird wrote: Billy wrote: songbird wrote: ... control fungi. at the rate of application of one dry quart to seventeen dry quarts of husks, the answer is no. Since fungi create a low pH environment, and bacteria a high pH one (relatively speaking), it appears the bacteria won (NH4 = pH 7). the bin was full of fungi and smelled of ammonia. hmm... now i'm really confused. hahaha... ok. can't revisit atm, experiment terminated, until next supply of husks comes around. as side notes, usually in the dirt the bacteria include species of nitrogen fixers and consumers of ammonia so it is very rare for me to smell ammonia coming from dirt unless i've happened to hit a localized heavy spot of organic material being decomposed by fungi. Nitrogen fixers convert N2 to NH3. The plant uses the NH3. and there are bacteria that will turn it back into the gas form again. I've read about bacteria mineralizing (oxidizing) NH3 to NO3. I've never heard of bacteria converting NH3 back to N2. You got a citation? if what you say is true that would be the reverse case wouldn't it? do you smell ammonia when you work in your garden soil as compared to what you smell when messing with the soil/mulch layer boundary? I never smell ammonia (NH3) in the soil, but I do, rarely, in the mulch when the mulch is very thick .50cm. Decomposition of amino acids (acid + NH3) can be a strictly chemical reaction. half a cm of mulch is not much mulch at all. did you mean 5cm? Whoops! No I meant 50 cm. I decided to use cm instead of meters. i'm thinking of several inches of mulch at least for when i notice it. the bin was about 30cm of soybean husks. the note about it being a strictly chemical process is interesting, but in a bin mixed with worm castings laden with fungi and bacteria i can't imagine there being much of that going on that was not mediated by either fungi or bacteria. the entire bin from top to bottom was full of spores. so i do really think that if the bacteria had indeed won i would not have been smelling ammonia. the pH was not measured for either bin so i can't say what it was. Ammonia is basic: pH7. Bacteria like basic soils. yep. but they'll be around in other soils too. there's really not many places that bacteria will not colonize given a chance. True, but above the boiling point, and below the freezing point of water, not much happens, because water is the media of metabolism. i do know that the innoculating worm castings and soil had nitrogen fixing bacteria present because much of it was taken from the same bin from top to bottom. so there were anaerobes as well as aerobes in there. if i dig to the bottom of any of the bins i'll find the methane/boggy smell, Methane has no smell. Gas companies add H2S to it so that it has a recognizable oder. ah yes. hydrogen sulfide is part of the swampy smell. but the soil above (and the bacteria) filter/consume the smell/methane before it gets out. I have never heard of methane consuming bacteria. If so, they would love the frozen tundra which releases incredible amounts of methane (greenhouse gas) as it thaws. i'd be sure they are at the boundary, but it being so cold they are probably limited by the frozeness below and the more active/warmer bacteria, etc. above. if there is an energy source there is likely a bacteria that feeds off it (i would not be surprised if there were a bacteria that also feed off nuclear reactions too). Not many nutrients in alpha particles, and x-rays. If you mean warm water, for sure. songbird -- Billy E Pluribus Unum Palestinian Villages May Soon Go Dark Once Again http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,815476,00.html |
#13
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a small study of rotting
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote: Billy wrote: songbird wrote: Billy wrote: songbird wrote: ... control fungi. at the rate of application of one dry quart to seventeen dry quarts of husks, the answer is no. Since fungi create a low pH environment, and bacteria a high pH one (relatively speaking), it appears the bacteria won (NH4 = pH 7). the bin was full of fungi and smelled of ammonia. hmm... now i'm really confused. hahaha... ok. can't revisit atm, experiment terminated, until next supply of husks comes around. as side notes, usually in the dirt the bacteria include species of nitrogen fixers and consumers of ammonia so it is very rare for me to smell ammonia coming from dirt unless i've happened to hit a localized heavy spot of organic material being decomposed by fungi. Nitrogen fixers convert N2 to NH3. The plant uses the NH3. and there are bacteria that will turn it back into the gas form again. I've read about bacteria mineralizing (oxidizing) NH3 to NO3. I've never heard of bacteria converting NH3 back to N2. You got a citation? not handy. i may be misremembering or misclassifying, could be an algae, cyanobacteria, eubacteria or whatever they are being called these days. nothing like advancements of science to screw up a poor memorizers brain. anyways i do know there is a nitrogen cycle. i did just read about it a few different times in overview. really. i wasn't daydreaming... ages ago i was into reef aquaria and they can be finicky about nitrogen pollution. if what you say is true that would be the reverse case wouldn't it? do you smell ammonia when you work in your garden soil as compared to what you smell when messing with the soil/mulch layer boundary? I never smell ammonia (NH3) in the soil, but I do, rarely, in the mulch when the mulch is very thick .50cm. Decomposition of amino acids (acid + NH3) can be a strictly chemical reaction. half a cm of mulch is not much mulch at all. did you mean 5cm? Whoops! No I meant 50 cm. I decided to use cm instead of meters. 50cm is a lot of mulch. i sometimes smell ammonia from the layer from under 10-15cm of mulch. .... if there is an energy source there is likely a bacteria that feeds off it (i would not be surprised if there were a bacteria that also feed off nuclear reactions too). Not many nutrients in alpha particles, and x-rays. If you mean warm water, for sure. not nutrients, energy. like what the chloroplasts or diatoms get from the sun. songbird |
#14
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a small study of rotting
Billy wrote:
Plants are adapted to this spectrum, which is determined largely by oxygen-yet plants are what put the oxygen into the atmosphere to begin with. When early photosynthetic organisms first appeared on Earth, the atmosphere lacked oxygen, so they must have used different pigments from chlorophyll. Only over time as photosynthesis altered the atmospheric composition, did chlorophyll emerge as optimal. There are cyanobacteria and several other types that absorb different spectra than the usual green. There are extremely ancient fossils that look like they might contain archea or bacteria with pigments that predated chlorophyl. |
#15
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a small study of rotting
Billy wrote:
In article , songbird wrote: towards the end of December i had bags of left over soybean husks to use eventually in the worm bins. not wanting to pass up a good chance of comparing processes i took some worm castings (about a dry quart) and added them to layers of wetted husks and then kept the bin moist. i started one bin and then a few weeks later started a second bin. both had more husks added to them as they compacted. two bins eventually held five bins of husks. if i'd continued the test i could have added another today (about two months from the start date). as noted in another thread recently the fungi side of the rotting equation is somewhat oriented towards acidic and ammonia. Ammonia is basic. i noticed last week that things were starting to get a little strong smelling, but was hoping it would pass. it didn't. the bacteria in the worm castings alone could not keep up with the fungi without their worm hosts to keep the bedding aerated and stirred. today i broke apart the first bin and added it to the worm bins. digging into it was like opening a bottle of ammonia. phew! tomorrow i'll hope to get to the second bin. in the end, the compaction and rotting by fungi, etc of the worm free bins was good for getting space back, but the smell and having to then process it anyways in a second stage didn't save much. for the storage considerations it was much easier to store dry bean husks than to have more bins. much lighter. this next season i hope to not have quite so much late husking to do and that will keep the shells outside and in the ground as fast as i can get them buried. we'll see... songbird Sounds like not enough brown/too much green. You want 25/1, B/G My thought is that the anerobic process from no acces to oxygen is the cause of the smeely compost. |
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