The average last frost for this area is April 11. So this morning the
temperature got down to 31. Thankfully the only thing that got hit
was basil. Thankfully I had only put out 1/2 of the basil plants. We
also put the citrus trees back in the greenhouse yesterday. They may
get to stay there for a few more days.
--
USA
North Carolina Foothills
USDA Zone 7a
To find your extension office
http://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/index.html

"The Cook" wrote in message
...
The average last frost for this area is April 11. So this morning the
temperature got down to 31. Thankfully the only thing that got hit
was basil. Thankfully I had only put out 1/2 of the basil plants. We
also put the citrus trees back in the greenhouse yesterday. They may
get to stay there for a few more days.
--
USA
North Carolina Foothills
USDA Zone 7a
To find your extension office
http://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/index.html

Yep, thankfully I brought the peppers, eggplant and tomatoes in last night.
We had a huge "rabbit tracking" frost this morning. I'm just west of you,
they say I'm in 7a, but I'm not convinced.
Steve

On Apr 12, 10:37*am, "Steve Peek" wrote:
"The Cook" wrote in message

...

The average last frost for this area is April 11. *So this morning the
temperature got down to 31. *Thankfully the only thing that got hit
was basil. *Thankfully I had only put out 1/2 of the basil plants. *We
also put the citrus trees back in the greenhouse yesterday. *They may
get to stay there for a few more days.
--
USA
North Carolina Foothills
USDA Zone 7a
To find your extension office
http://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/index.html

Yep, thankfully I brought the peppers, eggplant and tomatoes in last night.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:37:51 -0400, "Steve Peek"
wrote:


"The Cook" wrote in message
.. .
The average last frost for this area is April 11. So this morning the
temperature got down to 31. Thankfully the only thing that got hit
was basil. Thankfully I had only put out 1/2 of the basil plants. We
also put the citrus trees back in the greenhouse yesterday. They may
get to stay there for a few more days.
--
USA
North Carolina Foothills
USDA Zone 7a
To find your extension office
http://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/index.html

Yep, thankfully I brought the peppers, eggplant and tomatoes in last night.
We had a huge "rabbit tracking" frost this morning. I'm just west of you,
they say I'm in 7a, but I'm not convinced.
Steve


I am on the edge between 7b and 7a. The line seems to be between Surry
and Yadkin counties, the Yadkin river. I am about 5 or 6 miles north
of the river.

The hardiness zones can only give you a general idea about the
climate. Someone told me that I should not set out my tomatoes until
the first of May. I will keep a close eye on the weather for the next
couple of weeks.
--
USA
North Carolina Foothills
USDA Zone 7a
To find your extension office
http://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/index.html

On Apr 12, 12:11*pm, The Cook wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:37:51 -0400, "Steve Peek"
wrote:





"The Cook" wrote in message
.. .
The average last frost for this area is April 11. *So this morning the
temperature got down to 31. *Thankfully the only thing that got hit
was basil. *Thankfully I had only put out 1/2 of the basil plants. *We
also put the citrus trees back in the greenhouse yesterday. *They may
get to stay there for a few more days.
--
USA
North Carolina Foothills
USDA Zone 7a
To find your extension office
http://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/index.html

Yep, thankfully I brought the peppers, eggplant and tomatoes in last night.
We had a huge "rabbit tracking" frost this morning. I'm just west of you,
they say I'm in 7a, but I'm not convinced.
Steve

I am on the edge between 7b and 7a. The line seems to be between Surry
and Yadkin counties, the Yadkin river. *I am about 5 or 6 miles north
of the river.

The hardiness zones can only give you a general idea about the
climate. *Someone told me that I should not set out my tomatoes until
the first of May. *I will keep a close eye on the weather for the next
couple of weeks.
--
USA
North Carolina Foothills
USDA Zone 7a
To find your extension officehttp://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/index.html

I am in between Bladen and Sampson counties. Live in one get mail from
the other. One one my biggest problems is the wind that comes off the
lake. It tends to put a lot of stress on everything.

On 4/12/2012 12:11 PM, The Cook wrote:
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 10:37:51 -0400, "Steve
wrote:


"The wrote in message
...
The average last frost for this area is April 11. So this morning the
temperature got down to 31. Thankfully the only thing that got hit
was basil. Thankfully I had only put out 1/2 of the basil plants. We
also put the citrus trees back in the greenhouse yesterday. They may
get to stay there for a few more days.
--
USA
North Carolina Foothills
USDA Zone 7a
To find your extension office
http://www.csrees.usda.gov/Extension/index.html

Yep, thankfully I brought the peppers, eggplant and tomatoes in last night.
We had a huge "rabbit tracking" frost this morning. I'm just west of you,
they say I'm in 7a, but I'm not convinced.
Steve


I am on the edge between 7b and 7a. The line seems to be between Surry
and Yadkin counties, the Yadkin river. I am about 5 or 6 miles north
of the river.

The hardiness zones can only give you a general idea about the
climate. Someone told me that I should not set out my tomatoes until
the first of May. I will keep a close eye on the weather for the next
couple of weeks.

May 15 is normal frost free date here in northern Delaware. I've had
tomatoes out earlier but it does not appear to make any difference.
I bought seedlings over a week ago and re-potted and they are growing
nicely behind sliding glass door in the house. I'll take them in and
out to make sure they stay hardy but will not plant til May 15.

In article ,
The Cook wrote:

The average last frost for this area is April 11. So this morning the
temperature got down to 31. Thankfully the only thing that got hit
was basil. Thankfully I had only put out 1/2 of the basil plants. We
also put the citrus trees back in the greenhouse yesterday. They may
get to stay there for a few more days.

Well, the _average_ last frost means some years later than that, some
years earlier than that, so plunking out basil the day of the average is
asking for it, IMHO, unless the forecast looks really good (and even
then I'd have the fabric covers or plastic or something handy just in
case.) With the wacky weather this year, anything can probably happen (I
wonder if the week of June we got here in March will be traded for a
week of March in June...complete with snow.)

Got peas poking up and lettuce/spinach seedlings out in the garden. Will
be planting the "shallots from seed" into the cold frame Saturday,
looking at the forecast. Been hardening them out there in the days for a
week or so. Probably also put broccoli out, but in wall-o-waters. Garlic
is up, some has been up all winter, garlic is not concerned about cold -
I like that.

My basil, tomatoes and eggplants are dicots or one set true leaves,
cowering inside under lights and waiting for May - late May, mostly,
though W-o-W will probably move that up a bit for at least some of them.
Average last frost is May 15th, and we've had 4" snow on May 19th - the
lilacs were in bloom (not very long ago, nor very recently, but I don't
recall which year) - it's _only_ an average...

Zone 4 NW Mass.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:34:48 -0400, Ecnerwal
wrote:

Got peas poking up and lettuce/spinach seedlings out in the garden. Will
be planting the "shallots from seed" into the cold frame Saturday,

Elaborate - actual seed, or starts?

I've planted several hundred - weather last year didn't yeild great
shallots, so those I got, I saved for replanding. Filled a 6x12 cell
tray with them (just so they can start rooting, and I'll xplant the
individual soil plugs later), a small wooden planter, and half of a
4x8 foot raised bed (which already has several that are bunched to a
couple dozen apiece). My wife is going to be wondering what to do

I'm north of San Francisco.

In article ,
Sean Straw wrote:

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 14:34:48 -0400, Ecnerwal
wrote:

Got peas poking up and lettuce/spinach seedlings out in the garden. Will
be planting the "shallots from seed" into the cold frame Saturday,

Elaborate - actual seed, or starts?


These are the shallots (or "shallots") that are grown from actual seed -
hybrid, Dutch seed, I think from a bit of my follow-on reading - variety
is "Ambition" (there are others, but that's the one the place I was
buying seed from had). Storage life is supposed to be good, some folks
like the flavor, some think it's not true shallot flavor, and they are
evidently not really usable for sets. Trying for the first time this
year so I can't actually report on the flavor yet.

100-pack had ~108 seeds, germination above 90%, got them planted 5 to a
1-3/4" block as a "multiplant" (ie, I'll just plant the blocks as is on
a wider spacing.) I'm also experimenting with soil blocking this year
without spending money on it, and that non-standard size what my "scrap
materials crude block press" puts out.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

Ecnerwal wrote:

Well, the _average_ last frost means some years later than that, some
years earlier than that, so plunking out basil the day of the average is
asking for it, IMHO,
And don't forget that just forecasting frost is enough to kill Basil. In
the hills of upstate NY I'm just thinking about putting out some of the
hardy brassicas in a week or so...


--
Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/4 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

In article ,
"Steve Peek" wrote:

they say I'm in 7a, but I'm not convinced.

Zones are all about how cold it gets in winter - not when it gets warm.
After seeing a post here from Delaware with the same last frost date as
we have, I went to recheck ours - and it holds. But at ~300 miles south
of me and closer to the ocean, you can bet they are in a different zone.

Does it go below 0F where you are at any point in any winter? You're not
7a if it does. Do try to use a thermometer you can trust for that, or go
look up the archived data for the nearest official station (slightly
more of a pain than it should be, but possible to do.)

I can find a zone map that clams I'm in 5a, but I've seen it go below
-20F inside the past 9 years, so I don't exactly buy that. This past
winter we might have been zone 6 (-8F or -5F for the closest two
station's official lows - and only two days in January got that cold or
even close to that cold), but my bamboo does not appear to agree, or
it's not what I thought it was; it still looks winterkilled.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 17:46:01 -0400, Ecnerwal
wrote:

These are the shallots (or "shallots") that are grown from actual seed -
hybrid, Dutch seed, I think from a bit of my follow-on reading - variety
is "Ambition" (there are others, but that's the one the place I was
buying seed from had). Storage life is supposed to be good,

Mine didn't stay plump, but managed 10 months in my barn and were
sending out green wisps. I wouldn't normally plant as many as I did,
but because of the miserable conditions last year, they didn't turn
out well for cullinary purposes, and they certainly weren't going to
do any good being stored for much longer. I'll have plenty for
cooking, some for giving away (either in start form, or mature), and
more than enough for replanting next year.

I had noted that while they bunched up nicely, no scapes ever formed.
Seems odd for an allium to not flower, but then last year was weird.
My carrots went from seed to mature flowers in 6 mo, through the
"spring that wasn't" (outside from a few warm days, it was cold/cool
up until the first day of summer - those warm days are what screwed my
carrots).

100-pack had ~108 seeds, germination above 90%,

Why going with hybrid seed instead of sets?

got them planted 5 to a 1-3/4" block as a "multiplant" (ie, I'll just plant the blocks as is on
a wider spacing.) I'm also experimenting with soil blocking this year
without spending money on it, and that non-standard size what my "scrap
materials crude block press" puts out.

Pics anywhere?

What are you using for a press? An offset lever, a screw jack, ?

I've seen the block makers in catalogues such as Johnny's and the
sort, but the premise confounds me -- don't you want light fluffy soil
for the plant starts, rather than compacted stuff?

In article ,
Sean Straw wrote:

Why going with hybrid seed instead of sets?

$1.95 and the shipping's already covered for the rest of the seed order
..vs. $6.95+$6.95 extra shipping - more or less. I think there's probably
also more end product from the seed than there would be from the sets,
without spending even more for a larger package. If I find the flavor
disappointing, I'll try sets next year.

"scrap materials crude block press" puts out.

Pics anywhere?

Not so far. I'll see about that, not that it's much to look at.

What are you using for a press? An offset lever, a screw jack, ?

Nothing so beefy. The commercial block makers (as best I can tell
without owning one) are just a form the size of the final block, which
is jammed into the soil mix to pack them - soil mix being stacked 3
times deeper than the form. This obviously requires excess soil mix - no
problem for the folks making thousands, annoying if making 25 or 100.

My current version is a square plastic package for a drill bit and a
piece of wood that fits in it. I put about 2X the final block height of
mix in it (3x would not compress that far), and lean on the wood plunger
with body weight to compress it down. Then I pull the plastic up to
"eject" the block. Not being fully committed to the idea, I wasted
little time making it nice, fancy, or efficient. I'll save those for
version 2, if I end up feeling the blocks are worth bothering with. I've
meant to play with them for years, but happened to get reminded of them
at the right time to actually make a stab at it this year. When I make
the last block, the most I'm left with is 1/2-3/4 of a blocks worth of
leftover mix.

Version 2 would probably be a lever, just to make it more convenient.
Likely a dual lever to also make the ejection part more convenient. I
still don't see me buying the ones that are sold.

I've seen the block makers in catalogues such as Johnny's and the
sort, but the premise confounds me -- don't you want light fluffy soil
for the plant starts, rather than compacted stuff?

Not really, for a lot of things. Even in pots one is usually better off
"firming" the soil rather than leaving it completely loose - or the
plant falls over from no support. Plant roots are remarkably robust at
pushing through soil. Also, you are not making concrete-like bricks - a
high peat content is most of what's holding the blocks together, rather
than a massive amount of compression. Most of my seedlings have been
fine so far, a few have indicated that they might have liked a softer
start (root pushed up) but most of those have been fine with a bit of
added soil over the pushed-up root part, and they have since grown into
the block just fine. That aspect may have been aggravated by following
the advice to more-or less lay the seed on the surface of the block,
rather than covering it over and firming it in.

The supposed big advantage (other than not having hundreds of little
plastic pots/sixpacks/etc around) is "air pruning" - the idea being that
the roots grow to the edge of the block and stop, rather than growing to
a pot wall and winding all around. This is claimed to reduce (or
eliminate) transplant stress. I have not much to report on that front as
yet. The roots are also well-aerated as compared to a plant in a pot -
the soil is more compacted, but instead of a tiny hole at the bottom
which may be sitting in water, the whole surface of the block is exposed
to air.

They are a bit more fragile and fiddly to water than flats/six-packs,
but so far have held up better than I thought they would. Someone else I
know moves things around more than I do, and has had more problems with
blocks eroding or crumbling than I have (so far.) She is "not a fan" of
them, at least for herself, though she did like the air-pruning aspect.

Without promoting any particular site, There's quite a lot of
information (much of it unbalanced in the positive direction, of course)
if you drop "potting blocks" into a search engine.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 10:03:30 -0400, Ecnerwal
wrote:

Pics anywhere?

Not so far. I'll see about that, not that it's much to look at.

Even a basic image of something provides ideas. I'm always fiddling
in the workshop, and taking pictures of interesting things when I'm
out and about just because they provide some spark of an idea.

What are you using for a press? An offset lever, a screw jack, ?

Nothing so beefy. The commercial block makers (as best I can tell
without owning one) are just a form the size of the final block, which
is jammed into the soil mix to pack them

There seemed to be a finger-pull assembly that either gives a little
final side compression, or opens up the form to release (I think the
former - then when you release the grip, the block is smaller than the
relaxed form). A local (well, 40 mile round trip from me) farm supply
has some, but I didn't pay close attention to their design after
looking at the price...

soil mix being stacked 3 times deeper than the form. This obviously requires excess soil mix - no problem for the folks making thousands, annoying if making 25 or 100.

Set up a smaller diameter container to hold the soil. Or, start out
with a medium sized bin, and when you're half done, and the level has
dropped, dump it into a smaller bin (more height, less girth). A
moveable partition within a bin would serve a similar purpose, keeping
the soil from spreading out: when half done, tilt the bin, drop in the
partition, then set it back down and continue making soil blocks.

A milk carton with the top cut off would probably work sufficiently
well to hold a small volume of soil mix.

My current version is a square plastic package for a drill bit and a
piece of wood that fits in it. I put about 2X the final block height of
mix in it (3x would not compress that far), and lean on the wood plunger
with body weight to compress it down. Then I pull the plastic up to
"eject" the block. Not being fully committed to the idea, I wasted
little time making it nice, fancy, or efficient. I'll save those for
version 2, if I end up feeling the blocks are worth bothering with.

A short section of square tube stock (think trailer frame or receiver
hitch stock - but it wouldn't need to be the thicker gauge), would
probably work well. In fact, a section of metal (or even PVC, easy to
cut, cheap, available in multiple sizes) pipe should as well, with a
suitably sized dowel at one end. Drill a hole through the form
tubing, with the plunger material inside at one end of its travel, and
then push the plunger through to the other end of desired travel
(without rotating it), drill through the same hole, then remove the
plunger and cut out along between the two holes (probably by drilling
a series of holes, then cleaning it up), and then you could put the
plunger into the form, pass a machine screw through the middle of the
form, and a locknut on the other side, and your plunger will have 'x'
range of motion to accept incoming soil, and to eject the block.
There's several other ways to accomplish that slide range limiting.


Not really, for a lot of things. Even in pots one is usually better off
"firming" the soil rather than leaving it completely loose

Well, firm is one thing - compressed from 2-3x the volume though seems
pretty compacted.

plant falls over from no support. Plant roots are remarkably robust at
pushing through soil.

As anyone with an asphalt roadway can tell you once the weeds get into
a crevice.

Also, you are not making concrete-like bricks - a high peat content
is most of what's holding the blocks together, rather than a massive
amount of compression.

Ah, I don't use a lot of peat - I have a few bales of it for mixing,
but it's not a prime component of my potting soil.

added soil over the pushed-up root part, and they have since grown into
the block just fine. That aspect may have been aggravated by following
the advice to more-or less lay the seed on the surface of the block,
rather than covering it over and firming it in.

Sounds as if your blocks don't have a divot at top centre.

One of the nifty looking things about the commercial forms is that
they can batch (like 3 or 6 at a push), and that the size progression
uses a divot the size of the prior block. So small blocks have
something appropriate for dropping a seed in and covering with a small
amount of soil, larger ones have a hole about the size of the smaller
blocks so you can "plant up".

They are a bit more fragile and fiddly to water than flats/six-packs,
but so far have held up better than I thought they would. Someone else I
know moves things around more than I do, and has had more problems with
blocks eroding or crumbling than I have (so far.) She is "not a fan" of
them, at least for herself, though she did like the air-pruning aspect.

Hrm. I have several starting trays I constructed, which have fine
screening on the bottom - window screen material, which itself is on
top of a coarser, but more sturdy hardware cloth, to actually support
the soil. You can set these on a few spacers, and then the starts
don't sit in a puddle, and the screening is supposed to provide an air

one could make a stand with something more of a squared cross section
of a wavy screen:


--| |--| |--| |--
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
------ ------ ------

where the soil blocks could be set into the channels. Then you could
move around a tray of them without manhandling the blocks.

Ecnerwal wrote:
....
The supposed big advantage (other than not having hundreds of little
plastic pots/sixpacks/etc around) is "air pruning" - the idea being that
the roots grow to the edge of the block and stop, rather than growing to
a pot wall and winding all around. This is claimed to reduce (or
eliminate) transplant stress. I have not much to report on that front as
yet. The roots are also well-aerated as compared to a plant in a pot -
the soil is more compacted, but instead of a tiny hole at the bottom
which may be sitting in water, the whole surface of the block is exposed
to air.

They are a bit more fragile and fiddly to water than flats/six-packs,
but so far have held up better than I thought they would. Someone else I
know moves things around more than I do, and has had more problems with
blocks eroding or crumbling than I have (so far.) She is "not a fan" of
them, at least for herself, though she did like the air-pruning aspect.

i'd like it for not having to mess around with plastic
pots. there are other ways of doing sprouts that doesn't
involve pots, trays with slats to give spacing could work
too.

air pruning to me sounds like an interesting idea,
but isn't the point of doing starts to get the plants
to size ready to go outside? if the plants are getting
root bound then that means you've put the seedlings in
too small a pot. and that is why many places go from
smaller to bigger pots as the seedlings progress.

so basically, the air pruning is going to limit
the growth that you could have gotten if you otherwise
used bigger pots or plugs.


songbird