Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
Feel free to offer some citations for your responses, otherwise it is
just opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.


from _Permaculture_, Bill Mollison, 1990 p. 377

And this would be "Permaculture : a designer's manual / by Bill Mollison
; illustrated by Andrew Jeeves", 576 pages, Tagari Publications
(December 1988)

Good thing his books are available at the library. They are very pricy.

been a very interesting read. i think the
general information in it is worth contemplation.
i'm not sure some of his political or other views
are really needed, but how could anyone write
such a large topical book like this and not
wander off on a few rants here or there?

sadly, it really needed a good editor and more
proof readers to catch the many textual layout
mistakes, miswords, and outright factual errors.

[moles don't eat/store bulbs, but they may shift
them a little bit in their diggings -- other
creatures that use their tunnels may eat and store
bulbs, but that is a whole different thing...]


"SOILS

In drylands, any soil humus can rapidly decompose (in
dry-cracked soils) to nitrates with heat and water,
giving a sometimes lethal flush of nitrate to new
seedlings. Dry cultivated soils exacerbates this effect.
Mulches or litter on top of the soils prevents both soil
cracking and the lethal effect of rapid temperature gains
that cook feeder roots at the surface, so that in
subsequent rains there is less roots to absorb water.

Warm, wet environments also lead to rapid breakdown of organic material
(OM). This is also the reason that healthy soil should only be 5% by
weight, 10% by volume "OM". Otherwise, you'll pollute just like chemical
fertilizers.

i think this can vary, if you have an actively
growing crop with heavy roots already established
then it should be able to soak up extra nutrients
quickly.


Fire is destructive of this protective litter. After fire
and cultivation, most of the soil nitrogen, sulphur, and
phosphorous is lost, and even a cool fire loses plant
nutrients to soil water and leaching. When we know
more of the effects of fire in drylands, it is my opinion
that we will use any other method (slashing, rolling,
even light grazing) to reduce fire litter to soil mulch.
It now seems probable that Aboriginal burning has not
only gravely depleted soil nutrients, but caused a
breakdown in soil structure, and perhaps been in
great part responsible for the saltpans that preceded
agriculture. However, agriculture itself is a mon-
strously effective way to speed up this process and
intensify it."

In the book by Charles Mann, "1492", it was noted that the Amazonians
used "slashed and burn" agriculture, which was detrimental to the land.
Exhausting the laterite soil, they had to move every couple of years
IIRC. Subsequent archeology revealed that the Amazonians had a much more
complex society that wasn't reflected in their "slash, and burm"
agriculture. Prior to the arrival of diseased Europeans, many Amazonians
lead an urban life based on great orchards. However, to protect
themselves against European diseases, Amazonians left their cities to
live in small groups, which survived by subsistent farming.

i suspect it was the fact that the whole area
basically collapsed and the entire social setup
was likely destroyed too. what remained were some
fairly isolated groups and those groups not being
a part of the central peoples may have had taboos
about copying their ways of terra preta or tree
farming. "Look what happened to them! We better
do something different."


an opinion from someone who wrote a primary text on
permaculture. it would be interesting to know what
observations he used to form that opinion. i've
yet to see anyone else make the obvious connection
between grassland burnings and soil depletion for
drylands. to me the thought upon seeing fires almost
anyplace is of all those nutrients going up in smoke.

The soil needs to have organic material in order to hold moisture, and
to feed the micro-organisms that compose the soil ecology, which
ultimately feed the plants. Whether the "OM" is lost by the rapid
oxidation of cellulose in a fire, or the stimulation of micro-organism
in the soil from aeration caused by a plow doesn't make any difference.
Any consistent loss of "OM" from the soil will reduce it's fertility.

yes, but the added harm in fire is that some
nutrients are lost to the air and dispersed.
even those that can float for a long time would
end up 70-80% in the oceans. at least with
localized decays you have a better chance of
keeping trace nutrients in the area.


the book has been interesting overall. i like many
of his perspectives and how to treat an area based upon
the limit of the water supply and that you cannot have
more people than the worst case scenario will support.
also he recognizes overgrazing as the most damaging
problem for many areas that are currently having
trouble feeding people. and like me he laments the
loss of the forests.

The forests, of course, are the source of freshwater.

a big part of it.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/086...29546060_email
_1p_1_ti

Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization

The evolutionary road is littered with failed experiments, however, and
Manning suggests that agriculture as we have practiced it runs against
both our grain and nature's. Drawing on the work of anthropologists,
biologists, archaeologists, and philosophers, along with his own
travels, he argues that not only our ecological ills-overpopulation,
erosion, pollution-but our social and emotional malaise are rooted in
the devil's bargain we made in our not-so-distant past. And he offers
personal, achievable ways we might re-contour the path we have taken to
resurrect what is most sustainable and sustaining in our own nature and
the planet's.
-----

I know it doesn't prove anything, but at least I, and Jarod Diamond,
aren't alone in this belief.


I can't believe that I found another book to read :O(

hehehe, always more to read.

I'm doomed. I'm 10 pages into it, and it is an effortless read. The
worst thing about it is the number of books the he mentions as asides.
They fall like feathers in molting season. If you liked "Omnivore", then
you'll love
Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-...ivilization/dp
/0865477132/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368389425&sr=1-1&keywords=Aga
inst+the+grain+%3A+how+agriculture+has+hijacked+ci vilization+%2F+Richard+
Manning

From Booklist
A growing body of somewhat controversial scholarship ties the beginnings
of war to the "culture of scarcity" that emerged with the invention,
sometime in the Neolithic era and probably in the eastern Mediterranean,
of agriculture. Before that, these theorists contend, humans lived as
hunter-gatherers who were, far from the common vision of the
half-starved caveman, quite comfortable and well-fed, because their diet
was both varied and seasonal. The investment of time and energy to grow
a few crops led, paradoxically, to both great excess and horrific want;
when the crops failed, famine followed among people whose population had
swelled beyond the small tribes of the earlier peoples. These theories
are regularly bruited about at academic meetings, but rarely are they
the subject of popular writing (Daniel Quinn's 1992 novel Ishmael
constitutes an exception). Manning brings theory to life with
well-crafted essays that cover such diverse subjects as the Irish potato
famine and the controversy over bioengineered plants. Readable and
well-researched, this book unsettles as it informs.
======

I have a sinking feeling.

Tomatoland : how modern industrial agriculture destroyed our most
alluring fruit
http://www.amazon.com/Tomatoland-Ind...stroyed-Alluri
ng/dp/1449423450/ref=sr_1_1_title_0_main?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=136839 0807&s
r=1-1&keywords=Tomatoland+%3A+how+modern+industrial+ag riculture+destroyed
+our+most+alluring+fruit

Looks like it is good too :O(


The Whole Soy Story: The Dark Side of America's Favorite Health Food by
Kaayla T. Daniel
http://www.amazon.com/Whole-Soy-Stor.../0967089751/re
f=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368391029&sr=1-1&keywords=The+whole+soy+sto
ry+%3A+the+dark+side+of+America%27s+favorite+healt h+food+%2F+Kaayla+T.+Da
niel.

Too early to tell. The writing seems a little pedantic to my taste, but
all the elements for a good, corporate conspiracy are here.


I think I'm running out of bookmarks.

--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
....
I can't believe that I found another book to read :O(

hehehe, always more to read.

I'm doomed. I'm 10 pages into it, and it is an effortless read. The
worst thing about it is the number of books the he mentions as asides.
They fall like feathers in molting season.

haha. what year was it published?

i'll put it on the list.

Tomatoland is already on it.

i think you'll enjoy _Debt_, the first 5,000 years
by Graeber.


If you liked "Omnivore", then
you'll love
Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization

i'll add it to the list too.

....
The Whole Soy Story: The Dark Side of America's Favorite Health Food by
Kaayla T. Daniel
http://www.amazon.com/Whole-Soy-Stor.../0967089751/re
f=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368391029&sr=1-1&keywords=The+whole+soy+sto
ry+%3A+the+dark+side+of+America%27s+favorite+healt h+food+%2F+Kaayla+T.+Da
niel.

Too early to tell. The writing seems a little pedantic to my taste, but
all the elements for a good, corporate conspiracy are here.


I think I'm running out of bookmarks.




songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
I can't believe that I found another book to read :O(

hehehe, always more to read.

I'm doomed. I'm 10 pages into it, and it is an effortless read. The
worst thing about it is the number of books the he mentions as asides.
They fall like feathers in molting season.

haha. what year was it published?

North Point Press, 2004., according to the library.
North Point Press; 1st edition (January 13, 2005) according to Amazon.


i'll put it on the list.

Tomatoland is already on it.

i think you'll enjoy _Debt_, the first 5,000 years
by Graeber.
534 pages, huh? I'll get you for this, bird.

Maybe I could interest you in "Animal Factory: The Looming Threat of
Industrial Pig, Dairy, and Poultry Farms to Humans and the Environment
by David Kirby
http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Factory...vironment/dp/B
004IK9EJQ/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1368423484&sr=1-1

It practically reads itself,honest, and is only 512 pages.

or The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism
by Naomi Klein
http://www.amazon.com/Shock-Doctrine...lism/dp/031242
7999/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368423694&sr=1-1&keywords=Shock+Doct
rine

Who knew Milton Friedman sold Neo-liberal economics to Russia, China,
and the Chilean dictator, Pinochet?


If you liked "Omnivore", then
you'll love
Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization

i'll add it to the list too.

...
The Whole Soy Story: The Dark Side of America's Favorite Health Food by
Kaayla T. Daniel
http://www.amazon.com/Whole-Soy-Stor.../0967089751/re
f=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368391029&sr=1-1&keywords=The+whole+soy+sto
ry+%3A+the+dark+side+of+America%27s+favorite+healt h+food+%2F+Kaayla+T.+Da
niel.

Too early to tell. The writing seems a little pedantic to my taste, but
all the elements for a good, corporate conspiracy are here.


I think I'm running out of bookmarks.




songbird

and I still have a pound or 2 of " A People's History of the United
States: 1492-Present",
by Howard Zinn
to read. Oy.

--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
I can't believe that I found another book to read :O(

hehehe, always more to read.

I'm doomed. I'm 10 pages into it, and it is an effortless read. The
worst thing about it is the number of books the he mentions as asides.
They fall like feathers in molting season.

haha. what year was it published?

North Point Press, 2004., according to the library.
North Point Press; 1st edition (January 13, 2005) according to Amazon.


i'll put it on the list.

Tomatoland is already on it.

i think you'll enjoy _Debt_, the first 5,000 years
by Graeber.
534 pages, huh? I'll get you for this, bird.

it is another interesting read, i think he
has a pretty good grasp of the topic.


Maybe I could interest you in "Animal Factory: The Looming Threat of
Industrial Pig, Dairy, and Poultry Farms to Humans and the Environment
by David Kirby
http://www.amazon.com/Animal-Factory...vironment/dp/B
004IK9EJQ/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1368423484&sr=1-1

It practically reads itself,honest, and is only 512 pages.

harhar! it sounds too much like books i've
already read (how much different from _The
Omnivores Dilemma_ is it?)


or The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism
by Naomi Klein
http://www.amazon.com/Shock-Doctrine...lism/dp/031242
7999/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368423694&sr=1-1&keywords=Shock+Doct
rine

Who knew Milton Friedman sold Neo-liberal economics to Russia, China,
and the Chilean dictator, Pinochet?

any history of the WMF could make almost anyone
weep.


....
and I still have a pound or 2 of " A People's History of the United
States: 1492-Present",
by Howard Zinn
to read. Oy.

still on my list for next winter... i think
i'll put tomatoland on that winter list too as
i would like to keep going on the permaculture
references for a bit yet.

much better to have enough to read than
be stuck watching tv. i keep the podcast list
topped up too when i get times to listen. i
have two rainy days forecast... almost done
with the first permaculture book by Mollison
and then will get to one other of his books
that i have on the pile.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
Billy wrote:

uhoh, quoting is messed up below...

The Gordian Knot solution

snip


I can't believe that I found another book to read :O(

hehehe, always more to read.

alas, i'm getting into planting season, and my
health is better than any hunter-gatherer. especially
if you consider i'd have never lived past a day in
a society that didn't have some form of medical
science and an incubator.

i'm still rather fond of the much less than 20-30%
murder rate too, but perhaps that is only a temporary
lull in the mayhem of human existance. if the future
goes wild and crazy we might get back to mass
starvations and high rates of murder as the planet
answers the question of over-population and abuse
of resources.


Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization
by Richard Manning
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-...ivilization/dp
/0865477132/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368981220&sr=1-4&keywords=Aga
inst+the+Grain

I'm about 60 pages into the book (a mere 240 pages).

If you don't care for the murder rate of 20-30%, you probably won't like
the complete genocide that the farmers wreaked on the hunter/gathers.
Although farming startd 8,000 - 10,000 years ago, the full complement of
wheat, barley, sheep, goats, and cows didn't really coalesce into a
suite until about 5,600 years ago, near the Caucasus Mountains.They are
identified by their pottery which is distinctively marked with straight
lines, or as the German anthropologists called them Linearbandkeramik
(LBK is the designation for these farmers who spoke Indo-European).
Farming wasn't spread by adaptation, but conquest. The LBK farmers made
it to the Atlantic in about 300 years, taking no prisoners. The
"cave-painters" (Cro-Magnons), hunter/gaterers, last stand was in the
south-west of France. The Cro-Magnon's descendants are most likely the
Basque, who speak a language like no other.

The book goes on to describe the encounter between the LBK, and the
"Scandahoovians", which was a stalemate.

A ripping good book.


i certainly hope for better, i don't think a
return to hunting-gathering is likely for a vast
number of people. a subset might be able to do
it as urban hunter-gatherers or those who can
be rich enough to afford enough land and have
some way of protecting it from intruders or
governmental confiscation. the next real hunter-
gatherer societies are likely to be either those
of the post-apocalyptic or on another planet.
if that other planet is one we've had to
engineer then it's pretty likely we've also had
a good shot at doing good work here on this planet
too. at least i try to remain optimistic about
either of those cases. the world can heal itself
given time. we see this in the geological record
after huge events. so, yeah, i am optimistic,
the world will continue, the question is with
or without us?


songbird


Planted a dozen Yellow Banana Peppers yesterday. Instead of prepping in
my normal fashion, I've taken to poking a hole in the soil, and then
putting on some fertilizer, and then some potting soil, and lastly the
plant, with what ever potting soil is necessary to make the ground flush.
Today is sunflowers, lettuce, and potting some herbs.

--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
Billy wrote:

uhoh, quoting is messed up below...

The Gordian Knot solution

snip


I can't believe that I found another book to read :O(

hehehe, always more to read.

alas, i'm getting into planting season, and my
health is better than any hunter-gatherer. especially
if you consider i'd have never lived past a day in
a society that didn't have some form of medical
science and an incubator.

i'm still rather fond of the much less than 20-30%
murder rate too, but perhaps that is only a temporary
lull in the mayhem of human existance. if the future
goes wild and crazy we might get back to mass
starvations and high rates of murder as the planet
answers the question of over-population and abuse
of resources.


Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization
by Richard Manning
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-...ivilization/dp
/0865477132/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368981220&sr=1-4&keywords=Aga
inst+the+Grain

I'm about 60 pages into the book (a mere 240 pages).

i finished it two nights ago. quick read.
i'm not really sure what i think of it. as it
is a bit dated and the enemy of popularity has
turned from big-ag processor ADM to ag-chem-seed
producer Monsanto.


If you don't care for the murder rate of 20-30%, you probably won't like
the complete genocide that the farmers wreaked on the hunter/gathers.
Although farming startd 8,000 - 10,000 years ago, the full complement of
wheat, barley, sheep, goats, and cows didn't really coalesce into a
suite until about 5,600 years ago, near the Caucasus Mountains.They are
identified by their pottery which is distinctively marked with straight
lines, or as the German anthropologists called them Linearbandkeramik
(LBK is the designation for these farmers who spoke Indo-European).
Farming wasn't spread by adaptation, but conquest. The LBK farmers made
it to the Atlantic in about 300 years, taking no prisoners. The
"cave-painters" (Cro-Magnons), hunter/gaterers, last stand was in the
south-west of France. The Cro-Magnon's descendants are most likely the
Basque, who speak a language like no other.

The book goes on to describe the encounter between the LBK, and the
"Scandahoovians", which was a stalemate.

A ripping good book.

i enjoyed parts of it. i have to conceed the
poorer health and starvation of some peoples under
the version of agriculture much practiced in the
past.

i think the current world is making up for it
in some ways, but the question is if it is
sustainable, and it doesn't look like it is as
most are currently practicing...


i certainly hope for better, i don't think a
return to hunting-gathering is likely for a vast
number of people. a subset might be able to do
it as urban hunter-gatherers or those who can
be rich enough to afford enough land and have
some way of protecting it from intruders or
governmental confiscation. the next real hunter-
gatherer societies are likely to be either those
of the post-apocalyptic or on another planet.
if that other planet is one we've had to
engineer then it's pretty likely we've also had
a good shot at doing good work here on this planet
too. at least i try to remain optimistic about
either of those cases. the world can heal itself
given time. we see this in the geological record
after huge events. so, yeah, i am optimistic,
the world will continue, the question is with
or without us?


Planted a dozen Yellow Banana Peppers yesterday. Instead of prepping in
my normal fashion, I've taken to poking a hole in the soil, and then
putting on some fertilizer, and then some potting soil, and lastly the
plant, with what ever potting soil is necessary to make the ground flush.
Today is sunflowers, lettuce, and potting some herbs.

i've been digging and burying more shredded bark
and wood pieces and then after filling it back in
and then topping it off with soil that is actually
topsoil (and not clay). into that went about 220
onions of three types and a small patch of turnips.

i was a bit worried by the lack of bees on the
blooming honeysuckle for a few days, but they were
out in force today. *whew!* we'll be planting
tomatoes and peppers within the next few weeks and
i'll be finding more spots for beans, beets and
peas, cucumbers, squash, strawberries are blooming
and the rhubarb is coming along well as are the
peas and onions already planted and the beets
sprouted days before i expected to see them.
the challenge is keeping the melon seeds from
sprouting and pushing up so much that they are
pushing all the beets out of the ground. i guess
that is one way to thin them...

rain due this week. we'll appreciate it. the
killdeer are still sitting on their eggs.

busy day today. i'm due for a bit of a snooze.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
Billy wrote:

uhoh, quoting is messed up below...

The Gordian Knot solution

snip


I can't believe that I found another book to read :O(

hehehe, always more to read.

alas, i'm getting into planting season, and my
health is better than any hunter-gatherer. especially
if you consider i'd have never lived past a day in
a society that didn't have some form of medical
science and an incubator.

i'm still rather fond of the much less than 20-30%
murder rate too, but perhaps that is only a temporary
lull in the mayhem of human existance. if the future
goes wild and crazy we might get back to mass
starvations and high rates of murder as the planet
answers the question of over-population and abuse
of resources.


Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization
by Richard Manning
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-...ivilization/dp
/0865477132/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368981220&sr=1-4&keywords=Aga
inst+the+Grain

I'm about 60 pages into the book (a mere 240 pages).

i finished it two nights ago. quick read.
i'm not really sure what i think of it. as it
is a bit dated and the enemy of popularity has
turned from big-ag processor ADM to ag-chem-seed
producer Monsanto.


If you don't care for the murder rate of 20-30%, you probably won't like
the complete genocide that the farmers wreaked on the hunter/gathers.
Although farming startd 8,000 - 10,000 years ago, the full complement of
wheat, barley, sheep, goats, and cows didn't really coalesce into a
suite until about 5,600 years ago, near the Caucasus Mountains.They are
identified by their pottery which is distinctively marked with straight
lines, or as the German anthropologists called them Linearbandkeramik
(LBK is the designation for these farmers who spoke Indo-European).
Farming wasn't spread by adaptation, but conquest. The LBK farmers made
it to the Atlantic in about 300 years, taking no prisoners. The
"cave-painters" (Cro-Magnons), hunter/gaterers, last stand was in the
south-west of France. The Cro-Magnon's descendants are most likely the
Basque, who speak a language like no other.

The book goes on to describe the encounter between the LBK, and the
"Scandahoovians", which was a stalemate.

A ripping good book.

i enjoyed parts of it. i have to conceed the
poorer health and starvation of some peoples under
the version of agriculture much practiced in the
past.

Famines every 10 years don't auger well for agriculturalists. It's way
past time to start humanities return to sustainable environmental
practices. It's probably an impossible dream with greed intrenched in
government.

Civil disobedience, thats not our problem. Our problem is that people
are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation
and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are
obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while
the grand thieves are running the country. Thats our problem.
-Howard Zinn

Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will
do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.
-John Maynard Keynes

i think the current world is making up for it
in some ways, but the question is if it is
sustainable, and it doesn't look like it is as
most are currently practicing...

When the "free market" reigns, corporations will own the seeds for our
food, the rights to the our water, and charge us rent for the clothes on
our backs. Of course the problem may be moot if Global Warming gets away
from us, or we meet another Chicxulub asteroid.


i certainly hope for better, i don't think a
return to hunting-gathering is likely for a vast
number of people. a subset might be able to do
it as urban hunter-gatherers or those who can
be rich enough to afford enough land and have
some way of protecting it from intruders or
governmental confiscation. the next real hunter-
gatherer societies are likely to be either those
of the post-apocalyptic or on another planet.
if that other planet is one we've had to
engineer then it's pretty likely we've also had
a good shot at doing good work here on this planet
too. at least i try to remain optimistic about
either of those cases. the world can heal itself
given time. we see this in the geological record
after huge events. so, yeah, i am optimistic,
the world will continue, the question is with
or without us?


Planted a dozen Yellow Banana Peppers yesterday. Instead of prepping in
my normal fashion, I've taken to poking a hole in the soil, and then
putting on some fertilizer, and then some potting soil, and lastly the
plant, with what ever potting soil is necessary to make the ground flush.
Today is sunflowers, lettuce, and potting some herbs.

i've been digging and burying more shredded bark
and wood pieces and then after filling it back in
and then topping it off with soil that is actually
topsoil (and not clay). into that went about 220
onions of three types and a small patch of turnips.

Ah, to be young again.


i was a bit worried by the lack of bees on the
blooming honeysuckle for a few days, but they were
out in force today. *whew!* we'll be planting
tomatoes and peppers within the next few weeks and
i'll be finding more spots for beans, beets and
peas, cucumbers, squash, strawberries are blooming
and the rhubarb is coming along well as are the
peas and onions already planted and the beets
sprouted days before i expected to see them.
the challenge is keeping the melon seeds from
sprouting and pushing up so much that they are
pushing all the beets out of the ground. i guess
that is one way to thin them...

rain due this week. we'll appreciate it. the
killdeer are still sitting on their eggs.

busy day today. i'm due for a bit of a snooze.


songbird

We had unexpected, but much needed company yesterday. Back to planting
today.

--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
....
Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization
by Richard Manning
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-...ivilization/dp
/0865477132/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368981220&sr=1-4&keywords=Aga
inst+the+Grain

I'm about 60 pages into the book (a mere 240 pages).

i finished it two nights ago. quick read.
i'm not really sure what i think of it. as it
is a bit dated and the enemy of popularity has
turned from big-ag processor ADM to ag-chem-seed
producer Monsanto.


If you don't care for the murder rate of 20-30%, you probably won't like
the complete genocide that the farmers wreaked on the hunter/gathers.
Although farming startd 8,000 - 10,000 years ago, the full complement of
wheat, barley, sheep, goats, and cows didn't really coalesce into a
suite until about 5,600 years ago, near the Caucasus Mountains.They are
identified by their pottery which is distinctively marked with straight
lines, or as the German anthropologists called them Linearbandkeramik
(LBK is the designation for these farmers who spoke Indo-European).
Farming wasn't spread by adaptation, but conquest. The LBK farmers made
it to the Atlantic in about 300 years, taking no prisoners. The
"cave-painters" (Cro-Magnons), hunter/gaterers, last stand was in the
south-west of France. The Cro-Magnon's descendants are most likely the
Basque, who speak a language like no other.

The book goes on to describe the encounter between the LBK, and the
"Scandahoovians", which was a stalemate.

A ripping good book.

i enjoyed parts of it. i have to conceed the
poorer health and starvation of some peoples under
the version of agriculture much practiced in the
past.

Famines every 10 years don't auger well for agriculturalists. It's way
past time to start humanities return to sustainable environmental
practices. It's probably an impossible dream with greed intrenched in
government.

wait until you get to the part where he talks about
China and famines (p. 71).


Civil disobedience, thats not our problem. Our problem is that people
are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation
and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are
obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while
the grand thieves are running the country. Thats our problem.
-Howard Zinn

well yes. we have a lot of people in jail on
very minor things (non-violent offenders).


Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will
do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.
-John Maynard Keynes

the alternatives are demonstratably worse as
already seen. socialistic adaptations to capitalism
are fine to protect the elderly and the poor, but
subsidies are destructive in the long haul because
they distort the market signals. of course, i've
already stated before what i think of taxation for
pollution and making sure there is recycling and
many other things. i sure know that communism isn't
functional. works ok at a small scale, breaks down
quickly once the group gets larger.


i think the current world is making up for it
in some ways, but the question is if it is
sustainable, and it doesn't look like it is as
most are currently practicing...

When the "free market" reigns, corporations will own the seeds for our
food, the rights to the our water, and charge us rent for the clothes on
our backs. Of course the problem may be moot if Global Warming gets away
from us, or we meet another Chicxulub asteroid.

they don't own my seeds and i'll gladly share.


putting on some fertilizer, and then some potting soil, and lastly the
plant, with what ever potting soil is necessary to make the ground flush.
Today is sunflowers, lettuce, and potting some herbs.

i've been digging and burying more shredded bark
and wood pieces and then after filling it back in
and then topping it off with soil that is actually
topsoil (and not clay). into that went about 220
onions of three types and a small patch of turnips.

Ah, to be young again.

today is a day of r-n-r. very humid and in the
80s.

if i didn't need to get areas above flood stage
i wouldn't be digging quite as much and having free
fill to put underneath is a big help too. i could
not justify spending money i don't have for 20
yards of topsoil, but i do have time and can use
the exercise. my back hasn't felt this good for
many years. thanks to chiropractor and being
careful the past year and listening to what my
body is telling me. we're trying to walk each day
before gardening. so when the day is done i'm
done too.


i was a bit worried by the lack of bees on the
blooming honeysuckle for a few days, but they were
out in force today. *whew!* we'll be planting
tomatoes and peppers within the next few weeks and
i'll be finding more spots for beans, beets and
peas, cucumbers, squash, strawberries are blooming
and the rhubarb is coming along well as are the
peas and onions already planted and the beets
sprouted days before i expected to see them.
the challenge is keeping the melon seeds from
sprouting and pushing up so much that they are
pushing all the beets out of the ground. i guess
that is one way to thin them...

rain due this week. we'll appreciate it. the
killdeer are still sitting on their eggs.

busy day today. i'm due for a bit of a snooze.

We had unexpected, but much needed company yesterday. Back to planting
today.

good luck to you and your sprouts.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
...
Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization
by Richard Manning
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-...ivilization/dp
/0865477132/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368981220&sr=1-4&keywords=Aga
inst+the+Grain

I'm about 60 pages into the book (a mere 240 pages).

i finished it two nights ago. quick read.
i'm not really sure what i think of it. as it
is a bit dated and the enemy of popularity has
turned from big-ag processor ADM to ag-chem-seed
producer Monsanto.


If you don't care for the murder rate of 20-30%, you probably won't like
the complete genocide that the farmers wreaked on the hunter/gathers.
Although farming startd 8,000 - 10,000 years ago, the full complement of
wheat, barley, sheep, goats, and cows didn't really coalesce into a
suite until about 5,600 years ago, near the Caucasus Mountains.They are
identified by their pottery which is distinctively marked with straight
lines, or as the German anthropologists called them Linearbandkeramik
(LBK is the designation for these farmers who spoke Indo-European).
Farming wasn't spread by adaptation, but conquest. The LBK farmers made
it to the Atlantic in about 300 years, taking no prisoners. The
"cave-painters" (Cro-Magnons), hunter/gaterers, last stand was in the
south-west of France. The Cro-Magnon's descendants are most likely the
Basque, who speak a language like no other.

The book goes on to describe the encounter between the LBK, and the
"Scandahoovians", which was a stalemate.

A ripping good book.

i enjoyed parts of it. i have to conceed the
poorer health and starvation of some peoples under
the version of agriculture much practiced in the
past.

Famines every 10 years don't auger well for agriculturalists. It's way
past time to start humanities return to sustainable environmental
practices. It's probably an impossible dream with greed intrenched in
government.

wait until you get to the part where he talks about
China and famines (p. 71).

??????? It's the same deal, famines every 10 years.


Civil disobedience, thats not our problem. Our problem is that people
are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation
and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are
obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while
the grand thieves are running the country. Thats our problem.
-Howard Zinn

well yes. we have a lot of people in jail on
very minor things (non-violent offenders).

What we have is more people in jail (percentage wise) than any other
country in the world, 1%. Most of these people are people of color,
because the law is applied disproportionately. This is the new Jim Crow,
just in time for the Prison Industrial Complex.
The term prisonindustrial complex (PIC) is used to attribute the rapid
expansion of the US inmate population to the political influence of
private prison companies and businesses that supply goods and services
to government prison agencies. The term is borrowed from the
militaryindustrial complex President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned of in
his famous 1961 farewell address. Such groups include corporations that
contract prison labor, construction companies, surveillance technology
vendors, lawyers, and lobby groups that represent them. Activists have
argued that the Prison-Industrial Complex as perpetuating a belief that
imprisonment is a quick yet ultimately flawed solution to social
problems such as homelessness, unemployment, drug addiction, mental
illness, and illiteracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex

More specifically see "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age
of Colorblindness" by Michelle Alexander and Cornel West.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-I...dness/dp/15955
86431/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369114986&sr=1-1&keywords=The+New+J
im+Crow


Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will
do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.
-John Maynard Keynes

the alternatives are demonstratably worse as
already seen. socialistic adaptations to capitalism
are fine to protect the elderly and the poor, but
subsidies are destructive in the long haul because
they distort the market signals. of course, i've
already stated before what i think of taxation for
pollution and making sure there is recycling and
many other things. i sure know that communism isn't
functional. works ok at a small scale, breaks down
quickly once the group gets larger.
Who would know, it has never been tried. The U.S.S.R. was an oligarchy,
as is the capitalistic U.S. of A. The Delaration of Independance says
"We the People". It doesn't say I, me, mine. We are all in this together
to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic
Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general
Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our
Posterity.

Nothing in the Constitution says anything about banks making money at
the tax payer expense.


i think the current world is making up for it
in some ways, but the question is if it is
sustainable, and it doesn't look like it is as
most are currently practicing...

When the "free market" reigns, corporations will own the seeds for our
food, the rights to the our water, and charge us rent for the clothes on
our backs. Of course the problem may be moot if Global Warming gets away
from us, or we meet another Chicxulub asteroid.

they don't own my seeds and i'll gladly share.

The natural, free seeds are becoming fewer, and fewer. As much as I like
open pollinated seeds, I know that hybridized squash has less of a
problem with mildew. Hybridized means that it is owned by somebody.
Usually that somebody is Monsanto.

putting on some fertilizer, and then some potting soil, and lastly the
plant, with what ever potting soil is necessary to make the ground flush.
Today is sunflowers, lettuce, and potting some herbs.

i've been digging and burying more shredded bark
and wood pieces and then after filling it back in
and then topping it off with soil that is actually
topsoil (and not clay). into that went about 220
onions of three types and a small patch of turnips.

Ah, to be young again.

today is a day of r-n-r. very humid and in the
80s.

Mid 70s to mid 80s here for te last few weeks and the seedlings are
jumpin'

if i didn't need to get areas above flood stage
i wouldn't be digging quite as much and having free
fill to put underneath is a big help too. i could
not justify spending money i don't have for 20
yards of topsoil, but i do have time and can use
the exercise. my back hasn't felt this good for
many years. thanks to chiropractor and being
careful the past year and listening to what my
body is telling me. we're trying to walk each day
before gardening. so when the day is done i'm
done too.

I hope you make it to 60 without any chronic illnesses, otherwise it can
be a real pile of shit. Good luck.


i was a bit worried by the lack of bees on the
blooming honeysuckle for a few days, but they were
out in force today. *whew!* we'll be planting
tomatoes and peppers within the next few weeks and
i'll be finding more spots for beans, beets and
peas, cucumbers, squash, strawberries are blooming
and the rhubarb is coming along well as are the
peas and onions already planted and the beets
sprouted days before i expected to see them.
the challenge is keeping the melon seeds from
sprouting and pushing up so much that they are
pushing all the beets out of the ground. i guess
that is one way to thin them...

rain due this week. we'll appreciate it. the
killdeer are still sitting on their eggs.

busy day today. i'm due for a bit of a snooze.

We had unexpected, but much needed company yesterday. Back to planting
today.

good luck to you and your sprouts.
Peppers (28) are in. Now it's on to the squash, sunflowers, and more
lettuce. Then it will be beets, onions, and the misc. The seeds for the
green beans must have been too old. I'll have to try again.



songbird

--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:

two more books for the reading list:

Sepp Holzer, _The Rebel Farmer_ and _Sepp Holzer's
Permaculture_ i'm reading them in reverse order, almost
done with the second. he's got many years of actual
experience with many things, so i appreciate his
writings. some things he's almost mystical about so
that isn't as much a science as a ritualized practice
but it seems to be working for him.

i haven't gotten into mushroom farming, but i did
enjoy the part of the book that gives that overview.
if i do get into it sometime i'll be sure to read up
on it.

also how he talks about fruit trees and his
methods. very low input, but you need a varied
environment to pull it off. in a modern suburban
landscape with grasses, etc and few understory
plants that support beneficials it's a challenge.
then you may also have to deal with neighborhood
politics or town ordinances for weeds/lawn care.

his main property is upland enough that he can
work with microclimates and extending seasons of
harvest by using the warmer downhill areas and
cooler areas uphill along with using rocks, sun
catchers and ponds.

also the film mentioned: _The Agricultural Rebel_.


...
Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization
by Richard Manning
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-...ivilization/dp
/0865477132/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368981220&sr=1-4&keywords=Aga
inst+the+Grain

I'm about 60 pages into the book (a mere 240 pages).

i finished it two nights ago. quick read.
i'm not really sure what i think of it. as it
is a bit dated and the enemy of popularity has
turned from big-ag processor ADM to ag-chem-seed
producer Monsanto.


If you don't care for the murder rate of 20-30%, you probably won't like
the complete genocide that the farmers wreaked on the hunter/gathers.
Although farming startd 8,000 - 10,000 years ago, the full complement of
wheat, barley, sheep, goats, and cows didn't really coalesce into a
suite until about 5,600 years ago, near the Caucasus Mountains.They are
identified by their pottery which is distinctively marked with straight
lines, or as the German anthropologists called them Linearbandkeramik
(LBK is the designation for these farmers who spoke Indo-European).
Farming wasn't spread by adaptation, but conquest. The LBK farmers made
it to the Atlantic in about 300 years, taking no prisoners. The
"cave-painters" (Cro-Magnons), hunter/gaterers, last stand was in the
south-west of France. The Cro-Magnon's descendants are most likely the
Basque, who speak a language like no other.

The book goes on to describe the encounter between the LBK, and the
"Scandahoovians", which was a stalemate.

A ripping good book.

i enjoyed parts of it. i have to conceed the
poorer health and starvation of some peoples under
the version of agriculture much practiced in the
past.

Famines every 10 years don't auger well for agriculturalists. It's way
past time to start humanities return to sustainable environmental
practices. It's probably an impossible dream with greed intrenched in
government.

wait until you get to the part where he talks about
China and famines (p. 71).

??????? It's the same deal, famines every 10 years.

no, he writes they have evidence of 1800+ famines in
about 3,000 years. that's a famine almost every year
to every other year.


Civil disobedience, thats not our problem. Our problem is that people
are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation
and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are
obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while
the grand thieves are running the country. Thats our problem.
-Howard Zinn

well yes. we have a lot of people in jail on
very minor things (non-violent offenders).

What we have is more people in jail (percentage wise) than any other
country in the world, 1%. Most of these people are people of color,
because the law is applied disproportionately. This is the new Jim Crow,
just in time for the Prison Industrial Complex.
The term prisonindustrial complex (PIC) is used to attribute the rapid
expansion of the US inmate population to the political influence of
private prison companies and businesses that supply goods and services
to government prison agencies.

The term is borrowed from the
militaryindustrial complex President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned of in
his famous 1961 farewell address.

he was a smart guy.


Such groups include corporations that
contract prison labor, construction companies, surveillance technology
vendors, lawyers, and lobby groups that represent them. Activists have
argued that the Prison-Industrial Complex as perpetuating a belief that
imprisonment is a quick yet ultimately flawed solution to social
problems such as homelessness, unemployment, drug addiction, mental
illness, and illiteracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex

More specifically see "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age
of Colorblindness" by Michelle Alexander and Cornel West.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-I...dness/dp/15955
86431/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369114986&sr=1-1&keywords=The+New+J
im+Crow

gah! no, i'm not going there. it's all around me
already, i don't need to read more about it.

any federal or state program is always set up and
will self-perpetuate once funding gets allocated and
spent. that is why i think that we should make as
much government as volunteer or minimum wage as
possible to discourage "entrenchment" and also to make
representatives selected at random instead elected
by campaigns.


Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will
do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.
-John Maynard Keynes

the alternatives are demonstratably worse as
already seen. socialistic adaptations to capitalism
are fine to protect the elderly and the poor, but
subsidies are destructive in the long haul because
they distort the market signals. of course, i've
already stated before what i think of taxation for
pollution and making sure there is recycling and
many other things. i sure know that communism isn't
functional. works ok at a small scale, breaks down
quickly once the group gets larger.

Who would know, it has never been tried.

the first few years of Christianity were
supposedly communist in organisation and
sharing of resources, but that devolves like
any other system as soon as you put money
in any large amounts into the hands of a
few "leaders" or "organizers".

however, i don't see any solution because any
system set up still has to interface with others
and that means some form of currency or government
to make sure the groups don't trample each other
or use false means of gain or counterfeit
currencies.


The U.S.S.R. was an oligarchy,
as is the capitalistic U.S. of A.

sure thing. with some regulation here or there
but the regulators can be bought off with campaign
money and lobbyists contributions. so we get the
best government that money can buy. which is also
exploitive of resources to the detriment of any
sort of sustainable future. without the environmental
groups doing their counter efforts we'd be in even
worse shape (the USSR was much worse than us in
terms of how they treated their people and resources).
so even if i don't much like what we've got and it
surely can be improved, it seems to be at least a
bit more open and changeable than most of what i
see anyplace else.

the other aspect is that we have a hugely varied
culture that some other countries don't have to
cope with. how to integrate so many different
forces and not have it all blow up all the time...


The Delaration of Independance says
"We the People". It doesn't say I, me, mine. We are all in this together
to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic
Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general
Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our
Posterity.

which isn't the constitution, but i love the
language and intent.


Nothing in the Constitution says anything about banks making money at
the tax payer expense.

probably covered under "promote the general welfare"
intent above along with the clause which lets them
regulate interstate commerce as many banks now cross
state lines. as for the fed itself, that's a whole
different story and the history of that is well worth
reading up on sometime.

it didn't say anything about income taxes or property
taxes either, but once you get a governing class feeding
off the rest of the people it is very hard to break that
cycle of depredation.

as to how to regulate banking, i don't see any good
coming from the government being directly involved.
i already am having severe dislikes to the feds
current practices of transferring wealth from the
responsible to the irresponsible, but put the fed in
the government's direct control and it would be even
worse as then they'd have no check on their abuse of
the money supply. not that there seems to be one
right now anyways. if i had a better place to put my
money i'd be doing it, but the rest of the world is
not looking much better either.

my own answer is a different form of government, but
that's not likely to ever happen.

but getting back to the constitution, it's pretty
amazing how many people don't even read it once in
a while.


i think the current world is making up for it
in some ways, but the question is if it is
sustainable, and it doesn't look like it is as
most are currently practicing...

When the "free market" reigns, corporations will own the seeds for our
food, the rights to the our water, and charge us rent for the clothes on
our backs. Of course the problem may be moot if Global Warming gets away
from us, or we meet another Chicxulub asteroid.

they don't own my seeds and i'll gladly share.

The natural, free seeds are becoming fewer, and fewer. As much as I like
open pollinated seeds, I know that hybridized squash has less of a
problem with mildew. Hybridized means that it is owned by somebody.
Usually that somebody is Monsanto.

i don't think you are right. perhaps you can find
an organic source for a similar hybrid and not have
to buy from Monsanto. as there are so many squash
varieties you might even find something better.

i keep finding seed sources way beyond what i can
ever possibly use here. i don't think seed-savers are
going out of business any time soon, and the expansion
of farmer markets and people putting in their own
gardens is also a good trend in the opposite direction.


putting on some fertilizer, and then some potting soil, and lastly the
plant, with what ever potting soil is necessary to make the ground flush.
Today is sunflowers, lettuce, and potting some herbs.

i've been digging and burying more shredded bark
and wood pieces and then after filling it back in
and then topping it off with soil that is actually
topsoil (and not clay). into that went about 220
onions of three types and a small patch of turnips.

Ah, to be young again.

today is a day of r-n-r. very humid and in the
80s.

Mid 70s to mid 80s here for te last few weeks and the seedlings are
jumpin'

i'm glad they are coming along.

today looks pretty good for getting something
done outside.


if i didn't need to get areas above flood stage
i wouldn't be digging quite as much and having free
fill to put underneath is a big help too. i could
not justify spending money i don't have for 20
yards of topsoil, but i do have time and can use
the exercise. my back hasn't felt this good for
many years. thanks to chiropractor and being
careful the past year and listening to what my
body is telling me. we're trying to walk each day
before gardening. so when the day is done i'm
done too.

I hope you make it to 60 without any chronic illnesses, otherwise it can
be a real pile of shit. Good luck.

heh, allergies have always been fun, motorcycle
accident broke and twisted things so i have to be
careful about some angles and bends and then i've
had chronic back problems since i was 15. for me
to say that it is doing better is a huge improvement
in how things are going.

every day on the right side of the daisy roots is
a day i never expected. for some reason as a kid i
never expected to live past 30. having relatives
with chronic lung or back troubles or diabetes i
can see the way it can be. i've been through my own
piles so it's just a matter of keeping on, finding
what is important and working on that and not getting
hung up on what i can't do. being a systems analyst
means being able to break down a problem and work
the parts until it comes back together again. keep
the big picture in mind.


i was a bit worried by the lack of bees on the
blooming honeysuckle for a few days, but they were
out in force today. *whew!* we'll be planting
tomatoes and peppers within the next few weeks and
i'll be finding more spots for beans, beets and
peas, cucumbers, squash, strawberries are blooming
and the rhubarb is coming along well as are the
peas and onions already planted and the beets
sprouted days before i expected to see them.
the challenge is keeping the melon seeds from
sprouting and pushing up so much that they are
pushing all the beets out of the ground. i guess
that is one way to thin them...

rain due this week. we'll appreciate it. the
killdeer are still sitting on their eggs.

busy day today. i'm due for a bit of a snooze.

We had unexpected, but much needed company yesterday. Back to planting
today.

good luck to you and your sprouts.

Peppers (28) are in. Now it's on to the squash, sunflowers, and more
lettuce. Then it will be beets, onions, and the misc. The seeds for the
green beans must have been too old. I'll have to try again.

luckily they can be planted in series.
i keep planting peas and beans as much as i
can, i like the flowers and foliage as much
as the edibles.


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:

two more books for the reading list:

Sepp Holzer, _The Rebel Farmer_ and _Sepp Holzer's
Permaculture_ i'm reading them in reverse order, almost
done with the second. he's got many years of actual
experience with many things, so i appreciate his
writings. some things he's almost mystical about so
that isn't as much a science as a ritualized practice
but it seems to be working for him.

This here represents a problem. The local library doesn't have "The
Rebel Farmer", and even used it is way too expensive for me from Amazon.
In any event, I need to clear out my backlog of reading books. The stack
on the headboard could do some serious damage to me, if we had a
trembler.

i haven't gotten into mushroom farming, but i did
enjoy the part of the book that gives that overview.
if i do get into it sometime i'll be sure to read up
on it.
It is something I should check out. We're on the side of a hill, and
there is a lot of dark enclosed space under the house.

also how he talks about fruit trees and his
methods. very low input, but you need a varied
environment to pull it off. in a modern suburban
landscape with grasses, etc and few understory
plants that support beneficials it's a challenge.
then you may also have to deal with neighborhood
politics or town ordinances for weeds/lawn care.

his main property is upland enough that he can
work with microclimates and extending seasons of
harvest by using the warmer downhill areas and
cooler areas uphill along with using rocks, sun
catchers and ponds.

also the film mentioned: _The Agricultural Rebel_.

Film? What film? You didn't say anything about no stinkin' film. You
using Cliff Notes too? ;O)


...
Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization
by Richard Manning
http://www.amazon.com/Against-Grain-...-Civilization/
dp
/0865477132/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1368981220&sr=1-4&keywords=
Aga
inst+the+Grain

I'm about 60 pages into the book (a mere 240 pages).

i finished it two nights ago. quick read.
i'm not really sure what i think of it. as it
is a bit dated and the enemy of popularity has
turned from big-ag processor ADM to ag-chem-seed
producer Monsanto.


If you don't care for the murder rate of 20-30%, you probably won't
like
the complete genocide that the farmers wreaked on the hunter/gathers.
Although farming startd 8,000 - 10,000 years ago, the full complement
of
wheat, barley, sheep, goats, and cows didn't really coalesce into a
suite until about 5,600 years ago, near the Caucasus Mountains.They
are
identified by their pottery which is distinctively marked with
straight
lines, or as the German anthropologists called them Linearbandkeramik
(LBK is the designation for these farmers who spoke Indo-European).
Farming wasn't spread by adaptation, but conquest. The LBK farmers
made
it to the Atlantic in about 300 years, taking no prisoners. The
"cave-painters" (Cro-Magnons), hunter/gaterers, last stand was in the
south-west of France. The Cro-Magnon's descendants are most likely
the
Basque, who speak a language like no other.

The book goes on to describe the encounter between the LBK, and the
"Scandahoovians", which was a stalemate.

A ripping good book.

i enjoyed parts of it. i have to conceed the
poorer health and starvation of some peoples under
the version of agriculture much practiced in the
past.

Famines every 10 years don't auger well for agriculturalists. It's way
past time to start humanities return to sustainable environmental
practices. It's probably an impossible dream with greed intrenched in
government.

wait until you get to the part where he talks about
China and famines (p. 71).

??????? It's the same deal, famines every 10 years.

no, he writes they have evidence of 1800+ famines in
about 3,000 years. that's a famine almost every year
to every other year.

OK, it's agreed, every other year, and we won't mention the cannibalism.


Civil disobedience, thats not our problem. Our problem is that people
are obedient all over the world in the face of poverty and starvation
and stupidity, and war, and cruelty. Our problem is that people are
obedient while the jails are full of petty thieves, and all the while
the grand thieves are running the country. Thats our problem.
-Howard Zinn

well yes. we have a lot of people in jail on
very minor things (non-violent offenders).

What we have is more people in jail (percentage wise) than any other
country in the world, 1%. Most of these people are people of color,
because the law is applied disproportionately. This is the new Jim Crow,
just in time for the Prison Industrial Complex.
The term prisonindustrial complex (PIC) is used to attribute the rapid
expansion of the US inmate population to the political influence of
private prison companies and businesses that supply goods and services
to government prison agencies.

The term is borrowed from the
militaryindustrial complex President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned of in
his famous 1961 farewell address.

he was a smart guy.
And he seemed to be human.

I wonder what the U.S. would have been like if Major General Smedley
Butler, USMC had been President.


Such groups include corporations that
contract prison labor, construction companies, surveillance technology
vendors, lawyers, and lobby groups that represent them. Activists have
argued that the Prison-Industrial Complex as perpetuating a belief that
imprisonment is a quick yet ultimately flawed solution to social
problems such as homelessness, unemployment, drug addiction, mental
illness, and illiteracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex

More specifically see "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age
of Colorblindness" by Michelle Alexander and Cornel West.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-I...dness/dp/15955
86431/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369114986&sr=1-1&keywords=The+New+J
im+Crow

gah! no, i'm not going there. it's all around me
already, i don't need to read more about it.

We have that option, for the time being, but people of color don't. It
gets shoved into their faces, like it or not.

any federal or state program is always set up and
will self-perpetuate once funding gets allocated and
spent. that is why i think that we should make as
much government as volunteer or minimum wage as
possible to discourage "entrenchment" and also to make
representatives selected at random instead elected
by campaigns.

It's always a balancing act, isn't it? From about 1940 to 1982, Mexico
had a centralized government that gave rise to paying morditas (bribes)
to public officials to get them to do their work, or to get the results
that you wished. Since 1982, Mexico has been a Neo-Liberal government
with little regulation (much as the Tea Party wish for the U.S.). The
result is that human rights are in conflict with property rights.

Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal.
- Martin Luther King, Jr.



Capitalism is the astounding belief that the most wickedest of men will
do the most wickedest of things for the greatest good of everyone.
-John Maynard Keynes

the alternatives are demonstratably worse as
already seen. socialistic adaptations to capitalism
are fine to protect the elderly and the poor, but
subsidies are destructive in the long haul because
they distort the market signals. of course, i've
already stated before what i think of taxation for
pollution and making sure there is recycling and
many other things. i sure know that communism isn't
functional. works ok at a small scale, breaks down
quickly once the group gets larger.

Who would know, it has never been tried.

the first few years of Christianity were
supposedly communist in organisation and
sharing of resources, but that devolves like
any other system as soon as you put money
in any large amounts into the hands of a
few "leaders" or "organizers".

Ah, communist with a lower case "c", not an uppercase "C". In the middle
ages, at least in England, you would live in a village, and behind your
house you would have your garden, but beyond the garden was the
"Commons". There would be fields that were worked in common by the
inhabitants of the town for the good of everyone. There were also
forests where a person could hunt for game. Then came the closure laws,
and everyone was forced into the factories (more or less). Capitalism
seems like an extension of feudalism. Both require infinite resources.
Socialism (We the People) can be corrupted, as all can see, but it is
doable. First we have to get campaign financing out of private hands,
and everything else should flow from that, not that vigilance won't
still be required.

however, i don't see any solution because any
system set up still has to interface with others
and that means some form of currency or government
to make sure the groups don't trample each other
or use false means of gain or counterfeit
currencies.

Regulation is needed to combat cheating.



The U.S.S.R. was an oligarchy,
as is the capitalistic U.S. of A.

sure thing. with some regulation here or there
but the regulators can be bought off with campaign
money and lobbyists contributions. so we get the
best government that money can buy. which is also
exploitive of resources to the detriment of any
sort of sustainable future. without the environmental
groups doing their counter efforts we'd be in even
worse shape (the USSR was much worse than us in
terms of how they treated their people and resources).
so even if i don't much like what we've got and it
surely can be improved, it seems to be at least a
bit more open and changeable than most of what i
see anyplace else.

[T]he people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That
is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked
[National Security], and denounce the pacifists [Whistle Blowers] for
lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.
-Nazi Hermann Goering

[Parentheses are mine]

the other aspect is that we have a hugely varied
culture that some other countries don't have to
cope with. how to integrate so many different
forces and not have it all blow up all the time...
Most countries I can think of are multi-cultural, or multi-tribal. Japan
is the only outlier I can think of. Maybe Korea.


The Delaration of Independance says
"We the People". It doesn't say I, me, mine. We are all in this together
to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic
Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general
Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our
Posterity.

which isn't the constitution, but i love the
language and intent.
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect
Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the
common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of
Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this
Constitution for the United States of America."

It is the intent of the Constitution. The Articles of the Constitution
are supposed to effectuate the above results, if they don't, then they
aren't being faithful to the Constitution's intent.


Nothing in the Constitution says anything about banks making money at
the tax payer expense.

probably covered under "promote the general welfare"
intent above along with the clause which lets them
regulate interstate commerce as many banks now cross
state lines. as for the fed itself, that's a whole
different story and the history of that is well worth
reading up on sometime.

it didn't say anything about income taxes or property
taxes either, but once you get a governing class feeding
off the rest of the people it is very hard to break that
cycle of depredation.

Ipso facto, it's not "promoting the general welfare".

as to how to regulate banking, i don't see any good
coming from the government being directly involved.
i already am having severe dislikes to the feds
current practices of transferring wealth from the
responsible to the irresponsible, but put the fed in
the government's direct control and it would be even
worse as then they'd have no check on their abuse of
the money supply. not that there seems to be one
right now anyways. if i had a better place to put my
money i'd be doing it, but the rest of the world is
not looking much better either.

Credit Unions keep the money local.

my own answer is a different form of government, but
that's not likely to ever happen.

but getting back to the constitution, it's pretty
amazing how many people don't even read it once in
a while.
The Constitution's intent has been corrupted by 250 years of shysters
[shisters?] turning it into a real F.U.B.A.R.


i think the current world is making up for it
in some ways, but the question is if it is
sustainable, and it doesn't look like it is as
most are currently practicing...

When the "free market" reigns, corporations will own the seeds for our
food, the rights to the our water, and charge us rent for the clothes on
our backs. Of course the problem may be moot if Global Warming gets away
from us, or we meet another Chicxulub asteroid.

they don't own my seeds and i'll gladly share.

The natural, free seeds are becoming fewer, and fewer. As much as I like
open pollinated seeds, I know that hybridized squash has less of a
problem with mildew. Hybridized means that it is owned by somebody.
Usually that somebody is Monsanto.

i don't think you are right. perhaps you can find
an organic source for a similar hybrid and not have
to buy from Monsanto. as there are so many squash
varieties you might even find something better.

i keep finding seed sources way beyond what i can
ever possibly use here. i don't think seed-savers are
going out of business any time soon, and the expansion
of farmer markets and people putting in their own
gardens is also a good trend in the opposite direction.

As luck would have it, I misspoke again. I was thinking that Black
Beauty Zucchini was a hybrid, it isn't. Compared to Costata Romanesco
and Zucchino Rampicante it has little taste, but it sure does withstand
mildew. I'll have to find another example of skullduggery in high places.


putting on some fertilizer, and then some potting soil, and lastly
the
plant, with what ever potting soil is necessary to make the ground
flush.
Today is sunflowers, lettuce, and potting some herbs.

i've been digging and burying more shredded bark
and wood pieces and then after filling it back in
and then topping it off with soil that is actually
topsoil (and not clay). into that went about 220
onions of three types and a small patch of turnips.

Ah, to be young again.

today is a day of r-n-r. very humid and in the
80s.

Mid 70s to mid 80s here for te last few weeks and the seedlings are
jumpin'

i'm glad they are coming along.
It's the earliest start I've had in 15 years. Usually I don't get into
the ground until the first of June.

today looks pretty good for getting something
done outside.

Carp that Dium, baby.


if i didn't need to get areas above flood stage
i wouldn't be digging quite as much and having free
fill to put underneath is a big help too. i could
not justify spending money i don't have for 20
yards of topsoil, but i do have time and can use
the exercise. my back hasn't felt this good for
many years. thanks to chiropractor and being
careful the past year and listening to what my
body is telling me. we're trying to walk each day
before gardening. so when the day is done i'm
done too.

I hope you make it to 60 without any chronic illnesses, otherwise it can
be a real pile of shit. Good luck.

heh, allergies have always been fun, motorcycle
accident broke and twisted things so i have to be
careful about some angles and bends and then i've
had chronic back problems since i was 15. for me
to say that it is doing better is a huge improvement
in how things are going.

The thought of getting killed on a motorcycle never bothered me. Then I
discovered getting mangled. They sure are fun on a hot day in the trees.

every day on the right side of the daisy roots is
a day i never expected. for some reason as a kid i
never expected to live past 30. having relatives
with chronic lung or back troubles or diabetes i
can see the way it can be. i've been through my own
piles so it's just a matter of keeping on, finding
what is important and working on that and not getting
hung up on what i can't do. being a systems analyst
means being able to break down a problem and work
the parts until it comes back together again. keep
the big picture in mind.
My plan is trying to squeeze the last drop of pleasure out of this life.
I'm down to the hard part now, which only makes it tougher.



i was a bit worried by the lack of bees on the
blooming honeysuckle for a few days, but they were
out in force today. *whew!* we'll be planting
tomatoes and peppers within the next few weeks and
i'll be finding more spots for beans, beets and
peas, cucumbers, squash, strawberries are blooming
and the rhubarb is coming along well as are the
peas and onions already planted and the beets
sprouted days before i expected to see them.
the challenge is keeping the melon seeds from
sprouting and pushing up so much that they are
pushing all the beets out of the ground. i guess
that is one way to thin them...

rain due this week. we'll appreciate it. the
killdeer are still sitting on their eggs.

busy day today. i'm due for a bit of a snooze.

We had unexpected, but much needed company yesterday. Back to planting
today.

good luck to you and your sprouts.

Peppers (28) are in. Now it's on to the squash, sunflowers, and more
lettuce. Then it will be beets, onions, and the misc. The seeds for the
green beans must have been too old. I'll have to try again.

luckily they can be planted in series.
i keep planting peas and beans as much as i
can, i like the flowers and foliage as much
as the edibles.


songbird
Onwards, and downwards. Have a good'un.

--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:

two more books for the reading list:

Sepp Holzer, _The Rebel Farmer_ and _Sepp Holzer's
Permaculture_ i'm reading them in reverse order, almost
done with the second. he's got many years of actual
experience with many things, so i appreciate his
writings. some things he's almost mystical about so
that isn't as much a science as a ritualized practice
but it seems to be working for him.

Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's
too dark to read.
- Groucho Marx

--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg

Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:
songbird wrote:
Billy wrote:

two more books for the reading list:

Sepp Holzer, _The Rebel Farmer_ and _Sepp Holzer's
Permaculture_ i'm reading them in reverse order, almost
done with the second. he's got many years of actual
experience with many things, so i appreciate his
writings. some things he's almost mystical about so
that isn't as much a science as a ritualized practice
but it seems to be working for him.

This here represents a problem. The local library doesn't have "The
Rebel Farmer", and even used it is way too expensive for me from Amazon.
In any event, I need to clear out my backlog of reading books. The stack
on the headboard could do some serious damage to me, if we had a
trembler.

perhaps a fault of an ex-librarian is to keep
recommending books as i come across them.

i'm adding them to my notes too so they can
be found later or used by others to add to their
own reading lists.

things are working ok here, most libraries are
interconnected in Michigan now (even without much
funding from the state these days) using several
catalog systems (and a mass delivery system so
they don't have to pay postage per item) and then
there is the national OCLC system we can also use
if we're not too crazy with the number of requests.


i haven't gotten into mushroom farming, but i did
enjoy the part of the book that gives that overview.
if i do get into it sometime i'll be sure to read up
on it.

It is something I should check out. We're on the side of a hill, and
there is a lot of dark enclosed space under the house.

for most of what he's doing he's using either
logs (he says fresh cut are best because they are
already moist) or straw bales, left outside, the
logs partially sunk in the ground (providing more
even moisture and trace nutrients). takes a while
(1-2 years before fruiting bodies appear) to get
going but productive for years depending upon the
type of wood used.


also how he talks about fruit trees and his
methods. very low input, but you need a varied
environment to pull it off. in a modern suburban
landscape with grasses, etc and few understory
plants that support beneficials it's a challenge.
then you may also have to deal with neighborhood
politics or town ordinances for weeds/lawn care.

his main property is upland enough that he can
work with microclimates and extending seasons of
harvest by using the warmer downhill areas and
cooler areas uphill along with using rocks, sun
catchers and ponds.

also the film mentioned: _The Agricultural Rebel_.

Film? What film? You didn't say anything about no stinkin' film. You
using Cliff Notes too? ;O)

i should have written that "also a film was mentioned".


...
Against the Grain: How Agriculture Has Hijacked Civilization
by Richard Manning
....
i enjoyed parts of it. i have to conceed the
poorer health and starvation of some peoples under
the version of agriculture much practiced in the
past.

Famines every 10 years don't auger well for agriculturalists. It's way
past time to start humanities return to sustainable environmental
practices. It's probably an impossible dream with greed intrenched in
government.

wait until you get to the part where he talks about
China and famines (p. 71).

??????? It's the same deal, famines every 10 years.

no, he writes they have evidence of 1800+ famines in
about 3,000 years. that's a famine almost every year
to every other year.

OK, it's agreed, every other year, and we won't mention the cannibalism.

as someone noted, "it's hard to get a good night's
sleep." in that type of company.


....
The term is borrowed from the
militaryindustrial complex President Dwight D. Eisenhower warned of in
his famous 1961 farewell address.

he was a smart guy.

And he seemed to be human.

I wonder what the U.S. would have been like if Major General Smedley
Butler, USMC had been President.

Ike was a politician, i think Butler rubbed too many
the wrong way.


Such groups include corporations that
contract prison labor, construction companies, surveillance technology
vendors, lawyers, and lobby groups that represent them. Activists have
argued that the Prison-Industrial Complex as perpetuating a belief that
imprisonment is a quick yet ultimately flawed solution to social
problems such as homelessness, unemployment, drug addiction, mental
illness, and illiteracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison%E2%80%93industrial_complex

More specifically see "The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age
of Colorblindness" by Michelle Alexander and Cornel West.
http://www.amazon.com/New-Jim-Crow-I...dness/dp/15955
86431/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1369114986&sr=1-1&keywords=The+New+J
im+Crow

gah! no, i'm not going there. it's all around me
already, i don't need to read more about it.

We have that option, for the time being, but people of color don't. It
gets shoved into their faces, like it or not.

unfortunate and worth fighting against.


....
Who would know, it has never been tried.

the first few years of Christianity were
supposedly communist in organisation and
sharing of resources, but that devolves like
any other system as soon as you put money
in any large amounts into the hands of a
few "leaders" or "organizers".

Ah, communist with a lower case "c", not an uppercase "C". In the middle
ages, at least in England, you would live in a village, and behind your
house you would have your garden, but beyond the garden was the
"Commons". There would be fields that were worked in common by the
inhabitants of the town for the good of everyone. There were also
forests where a person could hunt for game. Then came the closure laws,
and everyone was forced into the factories (more or less). Capitalism
seems like an extension of feudalism. Both require infinite resources.
Socialism (We the People) can be corrupted, as all can see, but it is
doable. First we have to get campaign financing out of private hands,
and everything else should flow from that, not that vigilance won't
still be required.


capitalism does not require infinite resources,
i dunno where you get that idea from.

socialism is fine in some parts. i still believe
that freedom should be primary in that many systems
should be allowed under a broader form of government
and those that wish to form socialist organizations
and societies within should be allowed as long as
their members are allowed freedom to leave if they
wish. an age of consent. some written bylaws and
a coming of age ceremony would be good. i still
haven't had much of a chance to see how the Amish
have managed to become the society they have in the
USoA and how they are treated in terms of taxes and
such, but an interesting side topic for the future...


however, i don't see any solution because any
system set up still has to interface with others
and that means some form of currency or government
to make sure the groups don't trample each other
or use false means of gain or counterfeit
currencies.

Regulation is needed to combat cheating.

which means enforcement and that means
enforcers, taxes, jails, or something meaningful
as a deterrent... which pretty much doesn't seem
to exist now.


....huge snip, too many tangents...
as to how to regulate banking, i don't see any good
coming from the government being directly involved.
i already am having severe dislikes to the feds
current practices of transferring wealth from the
responsible to the irresponsible, but put the fed in
the government's direct control and it would be even
worse as then they'd have no check on their abuse of
the money supply. not that there seems to be one
right now anyways. if i had a better place to put my
money i'd be doing it, but the rest of the world is
not looking much better either.

Credit Unions keep the money local.

i have a fair amount of my savings in a few
credit unions. unfortunately, they can bloat
just like any other organization.


....
When the "free market" reigns, corporations will own the seeds for our
food, the rights to the our water, and charge us rent for the clothes on
our backs. Of course the problem may be moot if Global Warming gets away
from us, or we meet another Chicxulub asteroid.

they don't own my seeds and i'll gladly share.

The natural, free seeds are becoming fewer, and fewer. As much as I like
open pollinated seeds, I know that hybridized squash has less of a
problem with mildew. Hybridized means that it is owned by somebody.
Usually that somebody is Monsanto.

i don't think you are right. perhaps you can find
an organic source for a similar hybrid and not have
to buy from Monsanto. as there are so many squash
varieties you might even find something better.

i keep finding seed sources way beyond what i can
ever possibly use here. i don't think seed-savers are
going out of business any time soon, and the expansion
of farmer markets and people putting in their own
gardens is also a good trend in the opposite direction.

As luck would have it, I misspoke again. I was thinking that Black
Beauty Zucchini was a hybrid, it isn't. Compared to Costata Romanesco
and Zucchino Rampicante it has little taste, but it sure does withstand
mildew. I'll have to find another example of skullduggery in high places.

no shortage there.


putting on some fertilizer, and then some potting soil, and lastly
the
plant, with what ever potting soil is necessary to make the ground
flush.
Today is sunflowers, lettuce, and potting some herbs.

i've been digging and burying more shredded bark
and wood pieces and then after filling it back in
and then topping it off with soil that is actually
topsoil (and not clay). into that went about 220
onions of three types and a small patch of turnips.

Ah, to be young again.

today is a day of r-n-r. very humid and in the
80s.

Mid 70s to mid 80s here for te last few weeks and the seedlings are
jumpin'

i'm glad they are coming along.

It's the earliest start I've had in 15 years. Usually I don't get into
the ground until the first of June.

we're having another rainy day here, which is good as
we've been a little too dry, but i'm not getting more
gardens planted. we went looking for raincoats yesterday
and the stores have already moved their stocks into summer
and fall items.


today looks pretty good for getting something
done outside.

Carp that Dium, baby.

finished planting the areas i got raised up last
week. peas, beets, a few onions, snap peas, soup
peas. no beans in yet. i think i can get some of
those planted tomorrow if the ground isn't too soggy.


....
I hope you make it to 60 without any chronic illnesses, otherwise it can
be a real pile of shit. Good luck.

heh, allergies have always been fun, motorcycle
accident broke and twisted things so i have to be
careful about some angles and bends and then i've
had chronic back problems since i was 15. for me
to say that it is doing better is a huge improvement
in how things are going.

The thought of getting killed on a motorcycle never bothered me. Then I
discovered getting mangled. They sure are fun on a hot day in the trees.

dirt-biking was fun as a kid, but my downfall is
that i like to go too fast. also why i refused to take
up downhill skiing. i just knew that would be a bad
idea. snowshoes are about the right speed for me.

my brother hit a deer at 60mph on his motorcycle.
he came out of it with some bad spots of road rash,
but the gal on the back had quite a bit more damage.
i should have learned from that but many years later
i wanted to try one of my own. learned the hard way
that they weren't for me.


every day on the right side of the daisy roots is
a day i never expected. for some reason as a kid i
never expected to live past 30. having relatives
with chronic lung or back troubles or diabetes i
can see the way it can be. i've been through my own
piles so it's just a matter of keeping on, finding
what is important and working on that and not getting
hung up on what i can't do. being a systems analyst
means being able to break down a problem and work
the parts until it comes back together again. keep
the big picture in mind.

My plan is trying to squeeze the last drop of pleasure out of this life.

grab each day by the balls... gently...


I'm down to the hard part now, which only makes it tougher.

hang in there and try to ignore the BS. sometimes
happiness comes in small victories and unexpected
places. like seeing a sundog or a pea plant sprouting
and flowering.


....
Peppers (28) are in. Now it's on to the squash, sunflowers, and more
lettuce. Then it will be beets, onions, and the misc. The seeds for the
green beans must have been too old. I'll have to try again.

luckily they can be planted in series.
i keep planting peas and beans as much as i
can, i like the flowers and foliage as much
as the edibles.

Onwards, and downwards. Have a good'un.

you too! happy dibbling...


songbird

In article ,
songbird wrote:

Ah, communist with a lower case "c", not an uppercase "C". In the middle
ages, at least in England, you would live in a village, and behind your
house you would have your garden, but beyond the garden was the
"Commons". There would be fields that were worked in common by the
inhabitants of the town for the good of everyone. There were also
forests where a person could hunt for game. Then came the closure laws,
and everyone was forced into the factories (more or less). Capitalism
seems like an extension of feudalism. Both require infinite resources.
Socialism (We the People) can be corrupted, as all can see, but it is
doable. First we have to get campaign financing out of private hands,
and everything else should flow from that, not that vigilance won't
still be required.


capitalism does not require infinite resources,
i dunno where you get that idea from.

You sell one, and buy materials to make 2. You sell 2, and buy materials
to make 4. You sell 4, and buy materials to make 8, ect. Pretty soon you
are looking at very big numbers. Capitalism is founded on growth. Even
with planned obsolescence, an infinite amount of widgets requires an
infinite amount of resources.


I'll be back.

--
Remember Rachel Corrie
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/

Welcome to the New America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hA736oK9FPg