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Old 26-06-2015, 04:57 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

... will remain just a dream for me it seems.

Once upon a time in another life I grew certain medicinal herbs under
artificial light (and subsequently got sent to prison for it). Back then the
accepted way was to flood the area with masses of light, even if it wasn't
the right spectrum. As long as you supplied enough of it the plants did
well. Either High Pressure Sodium lights or Metal Halide, whatever gave you
the brightest light per watt.

Flowering was simply a matter of adjusting the timer to shorten the
photoperiod and, voila! A week later the plant starts flowering. It was as
if I was the plants God, I controlled them completely. I grew in soil mixes
of my own crafting as well as experimenting with hydroponics and even had an
aeroponic system for propogating cuttings. I was very successful having
always been a 'greenfingers'. However the electricity bills were massive (as
was the impact of imprisonment on my life and health).

Fast forward a few decades and I'm an invalid on welfare growing what food
my pain allows me to (as only the rich - or at least moderately well-off can
afford to buy tasty nutritious fresh fruit and vegetables). I've always been
an early adopter of technology (when I can afford to) and my home lighting
has become all LED, moving on from the CFLs I was using since they first
appeared on the market decades ago. The savings in running costs soon cover
the outlay if you buy carefully.

I got to thinking; Light can not only be produced for around 10% of the
electricity cost it was when I grew under lights but also you can also
essentially select exactly what spectrum you want with LEDs. That means that
you don't need to emit the ~80% of the spectrum that plants *don't* use so
the cost reduces by a further 80%. That means it's possible to provide a
plant with all the light that it needs for less than 5% of what it used to
cost back in the bad old days.

(http://www.dx.com/p/202185 and http://www.dx.com/p/371209 is one of the
cheapest ways to produce a good growing spectrum. There are other emmiters
and drivers available on that site and others. All you need are basic
soldering skills and a heatsink to fix the emmiter to. It doesn't have to be
a big one as that driver is under-driving the LED, only giving it half of
the amps it is rated for so it's producing far less heat than at rated
power.)

I bought a few LED emmiters targetted at plant requirements like the above
and have used them over my aquarium with amazing results. Plant growth is
rampant - but the spectrum isn't that nice for a decorative aquarium. As I
had such bad luck with my tomatoes last summer (I'm in NZ so it's mid-winter
here) and I have some emmiters and drivers spare so thought to grow a cherry
tomato plant under lghts in a built-in closet in the spare room. I had some
seed saved from a couple years ago.

So I used up a good portion of my 'low-pain' time over the last few weeks
building a frame to hold the LEDs (I added a couple of 3w white LEDs to fill
out the spectrum) that hangs on light chain up to two hooks (easy to adjust
the height link-by-link) and germinated some seeds, selecting the best. Now
the plant is a couple of feet tall, thick-stemmed and with dark green leaves
and producing it's first flower spray, looking good! Except.....

Only now do I read a bit about growing tomatoes under lights (oh the
arrogance!) and discover that, to produce fruit they need daytime
temperatures above 17º C, ideally closer to 20º C. I mentioned I'm poor? I
can't afford to heat my home, LEDs have revolutionised lighting but heat
still costs big bucks. (It's 2pm and I'm currently sitting in a 13º C room
with lots of layers of clothing, my bedroom was 7º C at 7am yesterday.)

I have a thermometer in the closet with the the plant and daytime temps have
been in the very low teens lately with nightime temps dropping to single
digits. What little waste heat there is from the LED and power supplies is
raising the temps in the closet somewhat above ambient but nothing like the
masses of heat that *had* to be dumped from grow areas once upon a time. It
seems high-efficiency lighting can be a double-edged sword.

If I can't afford to heat my living space there's no way I can afford to
keep my tomato plant cosy and warm - even if it's in a very small space
(about 3' by 2' and 6' tall - but uninsulated). However after all the
trouble I've gone to I night try to heat the space to ~18º C for four or
five hours a day - *if* I can devise a small heat source for the job. (I
have a spare thermostat http://www.dx.com/p/234991 I just need a ~200w
small-footprint heater but for the life of me can't think of something I can
re-purpose for the job. It's not as if I can afford to buy anything more for
this experiment.

Anyway, maybe a bit off-topic for this forum but I thought I'd share. Wish
me luck!
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)


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Old 26-06-2015, 06:54 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...


"~misfit~" writes:

If I can't afford to heat my living space there's no way I can afford to
keep my tomato plant cosy and warm - even if it's in a very small space
(about 3' by 2' and 6' tall - but uninsulated). However after all the
trouble I've gone to I night try to heat the space to ~18º C for four or
five hours a day - *if* I can devise a small heat source for the job. (I
have a spare thermostat http://www.dx.com/p/234991 I just need a ~200w
small-footprint heater but for the life of me can't think of something I can
re-purpose for the job. It's not as if I can afford to buy anything more for
this experiment.


Consider one of those red/infra-red heat/flood lamps used to keep baby
chicks warm. I think they're 150W or 200W. One should heat that
small a space well enough that you'd need your thermostat to turn it
off occasionally. I suppose if you're way south on South Island and
your space has an outside wall below 0C, it might not be enough but if the
surrounding walls are somewhere around 5C and up, it should be enough.

You can just put it facing downward in a hanging socket, a foot or
more from the plants themselves. You can experiment with surfaces
that will absorb the IR and then warm the air by conduction --
black-painted chip board or sheet metal, maybe.

Anyway, maybe a bit off-topic for this forum but I thought I'd share. Wish
me luck!


Luck!

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada
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Old 26-06-2015, 12:58 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

Once upon a time on usenet Mike Spencer wrote:
"~misfit~" writes:

If I can't afford to heat my living space there's no way I can
afford to keep my tomato plant cosy and warm - even if it's in a
very small space (about 3' by 2' and 6' tall - but uninsulated).
However after all the trouble I've gone to I night try to heat the
space to ~18º C for four or five hours a day - *if* I can devise a
small heat source for the job. (I have a spare thermostat
http://www.dx.com/p/234991 I just need a ~200w small-footprint
heater but for the life of me can't think of something I can
re-purpose for the job. It's not as if I can afford to buy anything
more for this experiment.



Hi Mike, thanks for the reply.

Consider one of those red/infra-red heat/flood lamps used to keep baby
chicks warm. I think they're 150W or 200W. One should heat that
small a space well enough that you'd need your thermostat to turn it
off occasionally. I suppose if you're way south on South Island and
your space has an outside wall below 0C, it might not be enough but
if the surrounding walls are somewhere around 5C and up, it should be
enough.


I'm really broke so any further expense is out of the question. However I
actually thought of something that I have that I can re-purpose that seems
to be working. It's my 'heavy-duty' soldering iron that I haven't used for a
year or two anyway. It's only 60w but, before I set it up in the closet it
was 12C and after an hour it was 15C and two hours later it hit 18C. (That's
just opening the door a crack to see the display.) It was around 12C
ambient, not as cold today as it has been of late - we had a cold snap. I'm
in the North Island, just South of Auckland.

You can just put it facing downward in a hanging socket, a foot or
more from the plants themselves. You can experiment with surfaces
that will absorb the IR and then warm the air by conduction --
black-painted chip board or sheet metal, maybe.


I have a computer fan in there to shake the plant a little bit (promotes
strong stem growth and will help pollinate fingers crossed). I've got the
soldering iron wired onto a piece of 4mm thick aluminium sheet, propped up
on a little stand thing at floor level. If today's any indication it'll
probably run half of the time during the day and I've got it to go off with
the lights so for 8 hours it will cool off. If I open the closet the temp
can drop 2 or 3C like a stone, in 15 seconds then it takes the little
'heater' half an hour or more to bring it up again. I'll have to keep my
nose out of there except for essential stuff or on warmer days.

It would be hard to use one of those heat lamps as the LEDs have pride of
place - right above the plant. If I'd used one I'd have had to go the
'absorbent surface' route.

Anyway, maybe a bit off-topic for this forum but I thought I'd
share. Wish me luck!


Luck!


Thanks heaps. I'll report back and let you know if I get fruit and how it
goes - if I can afford the on-going electricity. I know it doesn't sound
like much but each month that I manage to reduce my debt load - about half
of them with it increasing the other half - is a little victory for a lot of
going without. That soldering iron just more than doubled the electricity
costs of this experiment - and I may need to run more LEDs yet as the plant
grows.

We shall see....
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)


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Old 16-07-2015, 04:06 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

In article
"~misfit~" writes:
.. will remain just a dream for me it seems.

Once upon a time in another life I grew certain medicinal herbs under
artificial light (and subsequently got sent to prison for it).


In an interesting intersection of vocabulary, in the late '80s such
herbs were often referred to as "tomatoes" in online discussion
groups. Allegedly that made it harder for law enforcement to know
what they were growing.


--
Drew Lawson | "Look! A big distracting thing!"
| -- Crow T. Robot.
|
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Old 30-07-2015, 04:57 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

Once upon a time on usenet Drew Lawson wrote:
In article
"~misfit~" writes:
.. will remain just a dream for me it seems.

Once upon a time in another life I grew certain medicinal herbs under
artificial light (and subsequently got sent to prison for it).


In an interesting intersection of vocabulary, in the late '80s such
herbs were often referred to as "tomatoes" in online discussion
groups. Allegedly that made it harder for law enforcement to know
what they were growing.


I remember that - the feeling amongst growers was that picking tomatoes as a
psudonym was a good idea because they were a similar sized plant and also an
annual so were likely to requre broadly similar environments. I
subconsciously used this in thinking I could take what I knew from growing
cannabis in controlled condtions and apply it to growing tomatoes.

Boy was I wrong! Cannabis grows vertically in proportion to the amount of
light it receives - if you can give it intense light (without 'burning' it)
then it stunts its growth, shortens its internodes and produces a very
short, bushy compact plant. If you keep the light source the optimal
distance above the growing tops of the plant you then get lots of 'plant' in
a small space. However I'm finding that these cherry tomatoes on the other
hand keep their tall and straggly growing habits regardless of how much
light you give them - growing from seed likely didn't help much either as
it's almost half a metre from the soil to the first flower bunch.

So I decided to leave the laterals in place and hope for fruit from them.
However as I have to keep raising the lights above the top of the plant the
lats get much less light and so bolt, with extremely long internodes. I'm
having to re-think the whole idea but it's mostly too late for this winter
now. However at least I'll be able to start some good cuttings under the
main plant so they're ready for an early start outside come spring -
hopefully.

My working plan for next year (if I can afford it, the heating cost wasn't
something I initially factored into the project) is to grow multiple
*cuttings*, taken and rooted with a proto-flower spray in such a position
that it will come to fruition in under a metre vertical space, then take the
tops out to prevent the need to raise the lights (and use the growing tip as
another cutting). So one flower spray / fruit bunch per plant and multiple
plants (cuttings). That way I can use perhaps six smaller pots and cycle
plants in and out on (maybe) a 20 day cycle so there's always a fruit bunch
(or two) ripening at any one time.

It will mean spacing the LED emitters out horizontally rather than having
them in a psuedo-sun layout that I'm currently using. This will complicate
cooling of the emmiters as, at the moment I have them all on one large
heatsink with a low speed fan cooling them. I'm thinking of modifying a 3
foot aquarium light hood for the purpose, gutting it of the fluorescent
ballasts and tubes and retro-fitting the LED emmiters (the closet space I'm
using is just under 4 ft wide and 1.5 ft deep). I'm currently using 3 x 10w
emmiters above the plants and 4 x 3w above and to the sides. The leaves are
a lovely healthy very very dark green and the plant is growing like crazy so
perhaps 4 x 10w emmiters spread out horizontally will be good for this
space.

I should have used teh intarwebz - I could probably have saved myself having
to discover that tomato plants don't auto-stunt in the presence of strong
lighting in the way that cannabis does - the info is probably out there
somewhere.

Anyway, update as promised - for the edification of readers if wanted.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)




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Old 04-08-2015, 08:24 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

Once upon a time on usenet Derald wrote:
I'm no expert and plan to do a little reading on the subject, myself,
but tomatoes' light requirement are high; are you sure the 'maters are
getting enough light and of the correct color?


Hi Derald. Yes - I erred on the side of too much light rather than too
little, attempting to keep internodes short. Not hard to do with high-power
LEDs and a small area. As for wavelength I'm using a 50/50 mix of 8:1
red:blue 'grow spectrum' LEDs (with most output at 450 and 650nm) and cool
white "full spectrum". The leaves look amazingly healthy, very dark green,
with a hint of purple. The kind of colour you only see when you're giving
them the equivalent of more than two times 'full sun' levels of light with a
good dollop of near-UVB.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)


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Old 08-08-2015, 02:42 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

Once upon a time on usenet ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Derald wrote:
I'm no expert and plan to do a little reading on the subject, myself,
but tomatoes' light requirement are high; are you sure the 'maters
are getting enough light and of the correct color?


Hi Derald. Yes - I erred on the side of too much light rather than too
little, attempting to keep internodes short. Not hard to do with
high-power LEDs and a small area. As for wavelength I'm using a 50/50
mix of 8:1 red:blue 'grow spectrum' LEDs (with most output at 450 and
650nm) and cool white "full spectrum". The leaves look amazingly
healthy, very dark green, with a hint of purple. The kind of colour
you only see when you're giving them the equivalent of more than two
times 'full sun' levels of light with a good dollop of near-UVB.


Oh well, this experiment was a failure, I turned the 'heater' off yesterday.
The fan wasn't enough to 'wind pollinate' and I didn't try hand pollination
(perhaps I should have - I've done it successfully on other, larger flowers
before). Of the first two flower sprays half of the flowers have dropped off
with no fruit forming. There are no bees around outside, bumble or
otherwise, I haven't seen one for ages so kidnapping one for a short time
isn't on the cards and I don't fancy imprisoning one long-term in autmn next
year.

I know that the commercial greenhouse growers bring in captive-raised bumble
bee nests for pollination duties. (Apparently for tomatoes bumbles are the
way to go as they 'buzz-polinate' as many if not more flowers as they
deliberately pollinate. It's all to do with the frequency of their 'buzz'
and vibrations on the flower spray causing the flowers to eject pollen.)

Alas, it was largely a waste of money despite the plant growing like crazy
and looking extremely healthy. I haven't turned off the lights and as I'm
contemplating putting the heater back on and trying to hand-pollinate the
last few flowers on the current sprays. I'll 'do my finances' and see if I
can afford to keep the heater running another month to try that out. The
plant itself will serve as a source of cuttings for putting out early. Going
by what I read (and seen) it doesn't need heat for vegetive growth, only for
fruiting.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)


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Old 08-08-2015, 04:57 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

Once upon a time on usenet ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet ~misfit~ wrote:
Once upon a time on usenet Derald wrote:
I'm no expert and plan to do a little reading on the subject,
myself, but tomatoes' light requirement are high; are you sure the
'maters are getting enough light and of the correct color?


Hi Derald. Yes - I erred on the side of too much light rather than
too little, attempting to keep internodes short. Not hard to do with
high-power LEDs and a small area. As for wavelength I'm using a 50/50
mix of 8:1 red:blue 'grow spectrum' LEDs (with most output at 450 and
650nm) and cool white "full spectrum". The leaves look amazingly
healthy, very dark green, with a hint of purple. The kind of colour
you only see when you're giving them the equivalent of more than two
times 'full sun' levels of light with a good dollop of near-UVB.


Oh well, this experiment was a failure, I turned the 'heater' off
yesterday. The fan wasn't enough to 'wind pollinate' and I didn't try
hand pollination (perhaps I should have - I've done it successfully
on other, larger flowers before). Of the first two flower sprays half
of the flowers have dropped off with no fruit forming. There are no
bees around outside, bumble or otherwise, I haven't seen one for ages
so kidnapping one for a short time isn't on the cards and I don't
fancy imprisoning one long-term in autmn next year.

I know that the commercial greenhouse growers bring in captive-raised
bumble bee nests for pollination duties. (Apparently for tomatoes
bumbles are the way to go as they 'buzz-polinate' as many if not more
flowers as they deliberately pollinate. It's all to do with the
frequency of their 'buzz' and vibrations on the flower spray causing
the flowers to eject pollen.)


So it seems I had half of the answer, knowing about 'buzz pollination' of
tomato flowers. A quick Google gave me the other half (now that 10+ flowers
have dropped off each of the two sprays). An electric toothbrush seems to be
the best way to pollinate tomato flowers - the vibrations cause the pollen
to fall onto the style the same way as a bumble bees vibrations do.

Now I just need to find a cheap battery powerd toothbrush. I just tickled
the three or four remaining flowers with my Braun Oral-B but it would be
nicer to have a dedicated cheaper tool for the job.
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

Alas, it was largely a waste of money despite the plant growing like
crazy and looking extremely healthy. I haven't turned off the lights
and as I'm contemplating putting the heater back on and trying to
hand-pollinate the last few flowers on the current sprays. I'll 'do
my finances' and see if I can afford to keep the heater running
another month to try that out. The plant itself will serve as a
source of cuttings for putting out early. Going by what I read (and
seen) it doesn't need heat for vegetive growth, only for fruiting.




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Old 08-08-2015, 05:37 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

~misfit~ wrote:
....
Now I just need to find a cheap battery powerd toothbrush. I just tickled
the three or four remaining flowers with my Braun Oral-B but it would be
nicer to have a dedicated cheaper tool for the job.


i think just dinging them with your finger can
be enough. both simple and inexpensive...


songbird
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Old 08-08-2015, 01:31 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

Once upon a time on usenet songbird wrote:
~misfit~ wrote:
...
Now I just need to find a cheap battery powerd toothbrush. I just
tickled the three or four remaining flowers with my Braun Oral-B but
it would be nicer to have a dedicated cheaper tool for the job.


i think just dinging them with your finger can
be enough. both simple and inexpensive...


Hehee! You're likely right. However I've read that you can get very cheap
electric toothbrushes that use an AA cell, I have a lot of good quality
rechargeable cells and it's easier on my poor old back to touch them with a
toothbrush than to bend down *too* much.

Also the fan I had in there moving the plant didn't pollinate and there's
somthing about the vibration of a bumblebee, similar to some toothbrushes,
that works very well with tomato flowers.

We shall see. If I can find one at the right price I'll get one. Otherwise I
have a few old cell phones in the parts drawer - I'm a tinkerer so might try
to make something using the little vibrator motor out of a cell phone, if
and when I get the time...
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)




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Old 08-08-2015, 04:16 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

On 8/8/2015 8:46 AM, Derald wrote:
"~misfit~" wrote:

So it seems I had half of the answer, knowing about 'buzz pollination' of
tomato flowers. A quick Google gave me the other half (now that 10+ flowers
have dropped off each of the two sprays). An electric toothbrush seems to be
the best way to pollinate tomato flowers - the vibrations cause the pollen
to fall onto the style the same way as a bumble bees vibrations do.

Now I just need to find a cheap battery powerd toothbrush. I just tickled
the three or four remaining flowers with my Braun Oral-B but it would be
nicer to have a dedicated cheaper tool for the job.

Good idea. How do you know which model to use? Seems to me one
would need to try to match the bumblebees' frequencies. We have several
bumblebee subs native to my state (Florida), none of which was
introduced to NZ, but I don't think I've ever noticed them working
tomatoes, although a variety of other native bees certainly do. I'd be
interesting in reading your results.

Good idea Derald. Before the new subdivision went in we had plenty of
bumblebees but they seldom worked the tomatoes as long as the salvia was
blooming. That one plant seemed to be their favorite. Honey bees and
native bees such as mason and carpenter bees, plus the native wasps,
seemed to like the tomatoes better. Either that or they went to the
tomatoes because they were afraid of the large bumbles.

Hot and dry here, we're in a drought again. The raised beds need
watering daily so we do it in late evening with the soaker hoses. I'm
still working on the design for a pvc soaker system, will probably put
it in when cooler weather comes in, if it comes in at all.

Some of our neighbors aren't even watering their lawns or plantings and
their property is brown now. I don't think the dead looking hedges and
live oak trees are going to come back even if we get rain.
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Old 08-08-2015, 07:33 PM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

On 8/8/2015 11:59 AM, Derald wrote:
George Shirley wrote:

Good idea Derald. Before the new subdivision went in we had plenty of
bumblebees but they seldom worked the tomatoes as long as the salvia was
blooming. That one plant seemed to be their favorite. Honey bees and
native bees such as mason and carpenter bees, plus the native wasps,
seemed to like the tomatoes better. Either that or they went to the
tomatoes because they were afraid of the large bumbles.

I haven't noticed bumblers showing any particular interest in
tomatoes, either, but Florida's bumblebees aren't the same as those
introduced to Terrakiwi. In USA, real "bumble bees" are members of the
Bombus genus. Here is survey of those most commonly found in my neck
of the woods:
http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/bumble_bees.htm.
Endemic but not necessarily native, IIRC.

Your bumbles are different then ours. Here's some images and info on
"city bees."
http://citybugs.tamu.edu/factsheets/...stinging/bees/
This time of year, the locals are making the most of "partridge
pea", a large stand of which, very close to the garden, I
encourage—which simply means I mow around it, ha!
http://uswildflowers.com/images/full/dsc_7294-chamaecrista.jpg
http://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=chfa2


Hot and dry here, we're in a drought again. The raised beds need
watering daily so we do it in late evening with the soaker hoses. I'm
still working on the design for a pvc soaker system, will probably put
it in when cooler weather comes in, if it comes in at all.

We seem to be in the normal summertime weather pattern for the
peninsula. After and extended period of cloudy rainy weather, which was
not at all kind to much of the garden, we had four consecutive sunny,
rain-free days but that streak was broken in the wee hours of this
morning (Sat, 8 Aug) by a thunderstorm that has turned into an all day
sucker.
After a few years' hiatus, I began rejuvenating nine raised beds in
2009. After a bad experience with those soaker hoses fabricated from
recycled tires, purchased relatively low-priced (black PVC) dripline
with half gallon/hr emitters on six-inch centers and couldn't be better
pleased (so far). Regret not having done so from jump. A four-gang
header on a simple hose-end timer makes applying measured amounts
absolute zydeco ("snap bean" easy).

I'm looking at the same sort of system. I just need to break my wife of
hand watering every thing in sight. Heat index today is supposed to be
109F, I believe it is here. As a diabetic, heart disease, old geezer, I
stay out of the heat as much as possible so it's either get up early or
do gardening at night.

Some of our neighbors aren't even watering their lawns or plantings and
their property is brown now. I don't think the dead looking hedges and
live oak trees are going to come back even if we get rain.

In a relatively new "house hammock"? If the oaks were transplanted
within the past ten years or so, I'd guess there's not much hope if
leaves are brown. Shallow rooted and slow growing, oaks as landscape
standards often need supplemental water for a few years.

Yeah, this subdivision was started in either 2005 or 2006, two inches of
sand on top of five feet of clay. We took our live oak out and planted a
pear tree. Our street is a north/south wind tunnel so we had to stake
it. Had a crew dig a four foot deep hole seven feet across and then put
in amended soil and goodies, tree is doing well but a thirty knot wind
damned near blew it over before we staked it. I'm sure the live oaks are
dead that haven't been watered. I'm sort of worried about the neighbor,
may go over and ring his door bell. We haven't seen any sort of movement
next door in a few weeks. He may be gone somewhere and he just may be
hiding from the heat. Don't know him well enough to go visit but might
make a "curiosity" call.


  #13   Report Post  
Old 09-08-2015, 03:50 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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Posts: 149
Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

Once upon a time on usenet Derald wrote:
"~misfit~" wrote:

So it seems I had half of the answer, knowing about 'buzz
pollination' of tomato flowers. A quick Google gave me the other
half (now that 10+ flowers have dropped off each of the two sprays).
An electric toothbrush seems to be the best way to pollinate tomato
flowers - the vibrations cause the pollen to fall onto the style the
same way as a bumble bees vibrations do.

Now I just need to find a cheap battery powerd toothbrush. I just
tickled the three or four remaining flowers with my Braun Oral-B but
it would be nicer to have a dedicated cheaper tool for the job.


Good idea. How do you know which model to use? Seems to me one
would need to try to match the bumblebees' frequencies.


A quick 'pop-science' article on buzz pollination;
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/sc...buzz.html?_r=0

After a bit of research it seems that there's a range of frequencies that
work. Different (non-apis) bees used for tomato pollination produce
different frequencies. Here in NZ we have four species of bumble bee and,
while I was unable to find their 'sonication' (buzz pollination) frequencies
it seems they all manage the job. From what I've been able to find nobody
has researched the frequency of whatever native bee evolved alongside the
various Solanaceae varities.

I live in the middle of NZs main market garden area (Pukekohe) and there is
a company which supplies especially designed cardboard bumble bees nests
complete with inhabitants to greenhouses (along with parasitic wasps that
prey on aphids and a whole bunch of other beneficial insects). I used to
know someone, a friend of a friend, who worked for them but that was a long
time ago. This isn't that company - they were commercial only.
http://www.biobees.co.nz/Product.html However it seems that, in the last few
years a few outfits have sprung up doing similar things.

As for electronic solutions there are several on the market - again domestic
and commercial units, and again I'm having trouble finding out about
commercial units as they all seem to have their websites 'gated' behind
customer log-ins. They don't want to be bothered by the hoi polloi. As far
as domestic buzz pollination devices go the most common cheap single speed
device runs at 38,000 vibrations per minute (38kvpb)which is equal to 633Hz
http://www.amazon.com/VegiBee-Garden...S166DSHFJ2G K
and their more expensive multi-speed model
http://www.amazon.com/VegiBee-Garden.../dp/B00CJHMMXA
has five settings from 29kvpm to 44kvpm or 483 to 733Hz. Alas I'm yet to
find a NZ supplier.

I would hazard a guess that the single speed 38kvpm model is aimed mainly at
tomatoes and the multispeed model can be used more efficiently with other
species of plants that require buzz pollination. However other sites visited
when researching this suggest that a range of frequencies work (as songbird
said, "dinging" them with your finger can work). In the feedback on one of
those Amazon pages someone says a $3 kids battery toothbrush works
"perfectly" - however an hour ago I stumbled on a scientific site (not
bookmarked) that had information on how many times tomato flowers were
visited by bees - or tickled with 'wands' - against fruit weight and it's
obvious that simply getting fruit isn't the whole picture. There are degrees
of success.

My plan to minimise expense and perhaps use what I have - namely a phone
vibrator might not be the best as it seems they operate in a range from
130Hz to 180Hz depending on manufacturer with an average of 160Hz. This is
quite a bit less than the 633Hz that the single-speed 'wand' uses. However
it's quite a bit higher than the 'finger dinging' frequency so might be
better than flicking the flowers. However if I could find abovementioned $3
electric toothbrush I'd be happy to try that - after all it's about the same
price as a single tasteless off-season supermarket tomato and codging
something together using a phone vibrator, power source and 'probe' (taping
it all to a pencil) would take a bunch of time that I could use doing other,
more urgent things around my home.

We have
several bumblebee subs native to my state (Florida), none of which was
introduced to NZ, but I don't think I've ever noticed them working
tomatoes, although a variety of other native bees certainly do. I'd
be interesting in reading your results.


It seems that quite a few bees other than bumble bees employ buzz
pollination and I'd hazard a guess that some of those native bees do. (After
all Florida isn't that far away from where a lot of these plants evolved,
certainly on the same continent.) There's no reward for non-buzz polinators
at tomato flowers (no nectar and litle accessable pollen) so it's fair to
say that if they're visiting the flowers for more than a quick check they're
buzz pollinating. To be sure you can always get close and listen.

Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)


  #14   Report Post  
Old 10-08-2015, 01:41 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
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First recorded activity by GardenBanter: May 2014
Posts: 851
Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

On 8/9/2015 5:08 PM, Derald wrote:
"~misfit~" wrote:

Once upon a time on usenet Derald wrote:
"~misfit~" wrote:

So it seems I had half of the answer, knowing about 'buzz
pollination' of tomato flowers. A quick Google gave me the other
half (now that 10+ flowers have dropped off each of the two sprays).
An electric toothbrush seems to be the best way to pollinate tomato
flowers - the vibrations cause the pollen to fall onto the style the
same way as a bumble bees vibrations do.

Now I just need to find a cheap battery powerd toothbrush. I just
tickled the three or four remaining flowers with my Braun Oral-B but
it would be nicer to have a dedicated cheaper tool for the job.

Good idea. How do you know which model to use? Seems to me one
would need to try to match the bumblebees' frequencies.


A quick 'pop-science' article on buzz pollination;
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/sc...buzz.html?_r=0

After a bit of research it seems that there's a range of frequencies that
work. Different (non-apis) bees used for tomato pollination produce
different frequencies. Here in NZ we have four species of bumble bee and,
while I was unable to find their 'sonication' (buzz pollination) frequencies
it seems they all manage the job. From what I've been able to find nobody
has researched the frequency of whatever native bee evolved alongside the
various Solanaceae varities.

I live in the middle of NZs main market garden area (Pukekohe) and there is
a company which supplies especially designed cardboard bumble bees nests
complete with inhabitants to greenhouses (along with parasitic wasps that
prey on aphids and a whole bunch of other beneficial insects). I used to
know someone, a friend of a friend, who worked for them but that was a long
time ago. This isn't that company - they were commercial only.
http://www.biobees.co.nz/Product.html However it seems that, in the last few
years a few outfits have sprung up doing similar things.

A casual Google search hit on several online sources here in the
States, all selling Bombus bees under the same brand name (Natupol).
Although all provide instructions for use, none of them advises how to
maintain a viable local bee population. Why would that be, one
wonders....

As for electronic solutions there are several on the market - again domestic
and commercial units, and again I'm having trouble finding out about
commercial units as they all seem to have their websites 'gated' behind
customer log-ins. They don't want to be bothered by the hoi polloi. As far
as domestic buzz pollination devices go the most common cheap single speed
device runs at 38,000 vibrations per minute (38kvpb)which is equal to 633Hz
http://www.amazon.com/VegiBee-Garden...S166DSHFJ2G K
and their more expensive multi-speed model
http://www.amazon.com/VegiBee-Garden.../dp/B00CJHMMXA
has five settings from 29kvpm to 44kvpm or 483 to 733Hz. Alas I'm yet to
find a NZ supplier.

I would hazard a guess that the single speed 38kvpm model is aimed mainly at
tomatoes and the multispeed model can be used more efficiently with other
species of plants that require buzz pollination.

Not bad. The single-speed battery jobbie can be had for roughly
$19.00 (US) plus shipping here. I'd still try an off-the-rack
supermarket toothbrush first, though.

Just happen to have one that I don't use much, may give it a try next
season on the tomatoes. That's if I don't see any pollinators as
happened this year. I hope the A holes who sprayed around here by air
and the builders who destroyed a virgin forest behind us have a bad crop
too.
  #15   Report Post  
Old 10-08-2015, 04:23 AM posted to rec.gardens.edible
external usenet poster
 
First recorded activity by GardenBanter: Nov 2014
Posts: 149
Default Winter tomatoes grown under lights...

Once upon a time on usenet Derald wrote:
"~misfit~" wrote:

Once upon a time on usenet Derald wrote:
"~misfit~" wrote:

So it seems I had half of the answer, knowing about 'buzz
pollination' of tomato flowers. A quick Google gave me the other
half (now that 10+ flowers have dropped off each of the two
sprays). An electric toothbrush seems to be the best way to
pollinate tomato flowers - the vibrations cause the pollen to fall
onto the style the same way as a bumble bees vibrations do.

Now I just need to find a cheap battery powerd toothbrush. I just
tickled the three or four remaining flowers with my Braun Oral-B
but it would be nicer to have a dedicated cheaper tool for the job.

Good idea. How do you know which model to use? Seems to me one
would need to try to match the bumblebees' frequencies.


A quick 'pop-science' article on buzz pollination;
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/11/sc...buzz.html?_r=0

After a bit of research it seems that there's a range of frequencies
that work. Different (non-apis) bees used for tomato pollination
produce different frequencies. Here in NZ we have four species of
bumble bee and, while I was unable to find their 'sonication' (buzz
pollination) frequencies it seems they all manage the job. From what
I've been able to find nobody has researched the frequency of
whatever native bee evolved alongside the various Solanaceae
varities.

I live in the middle of NZs main market garden area (Pukekohe) and
there is a company which supplies especially designed cardboard
bumble bees nests complete with inhabitants to greenhouses (along
with parasitic wasps that prey on aphids and a whole bunch of other
beneficial insects). I used to know someone, a friend of a friend,
who worked for them but that was a long time ago. This isn't that
company - they were commercial only.
http://www.biobees.co.nz/Product.html However it seems that, in the
last few years a few outfits have sprung up doing similar things.

A casual Google search hit on several online sources here in the
States, all selling Bombus bees under the same brand name (Natupol).
Although all provide instructions for use, none of them advises how to
maintain a viable local bee population. Why would that be, one
wonders....



Probably because bumble bee nests are short-lived, a season at most. However
it's possible to bone up on all things bumble bee and make (or purchase)
excelleny nesting sites and encourage (or capture) new young queens and
establish new nests.

Also a lot of these commercial 'products' are aimed at greenhouse growers of
tomatoes and include a (limited) supply of 'nectar' (often diluted low grade
apis honey). While bumble bees can exists mostly on pollen, as in a tomato
greenhouse, they also need a quantity of nectar. As tomatoes don't provide
it commercially supplied for growers nests incorporate a certain amount,
enough to keep the nest viable for six weeks or so, depending on supplier.

As for electronic solutions there are several on the market - again
domestic and commercial units, and again I'm having trouble finding
out about commercial units as they all seem to have their websites
'gated' behind customer log-ins. They don't want to be bothered by
the hoi polloi. As far as domestic buzz pollination devices go the
most common cheap single speed device runs at 38,000 vibrations per
minute (38kvpb)which is equal to 633Hz
http://www.amazon.com/VegiBee-Garden...S166DSHFJ2G K
and their more expensive multi-speed model
http://www.amazon.com/VegiBee-Garden.../dp/B00CJHMMXA
has five settings from 29kvpm to 44kvpm or 483 to 733Hz. Alas I'm
yet to find a NZ supplier.

I would hazard a guess that the single speed 38kvpm model is aimed
mainly at tomatoes and the multispeed model can be used more
efficiently with other species of plants that require buzz
pollination.

Not bad. The single-speed battery jobbie can be had for roughly
$19.00 (US) plus shipping here. I'd still try an off-the-rack
supermarket toothbrush first, though.


The downside of living in a Pacific Paradise is the relatively small
consumer base. So far I haven't been able to source an electric pollinator
here. Heck, I haven't even been able to find a 'throwaway' battery
toothbrush - at least online. The last time I was in the supermarket they
had their own brand of rechargable toothbrushes that were cheaper than the
Braun brushes on the next shelf but were still $25.

Being a broke invalid with social anxiety as well as chronic back pain I
don't get out much and when I do it's an efficient trip, get what I need and
get home. (Also I have a 30 year old car that I maintain myself because I
can't afford to pay someone else to do it and I *can* as it doesn't have too
much in the way of electronic gizmos. I got it cheaply as it'd been
'cooked', radiator run dry seven years ago and despite driving with a light
foot the rattles are starting to get worryingly louder lately.) On top of
the anxiety I don't need the temptation of seeing things that I can't really
afford. However I must save up a bit of morphine and make an effort to 'shop
around' because I *know* I've seen battery toothbrushes somewhere, sometime.


Cheers,
--
Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long way when religious belief has a cozy
little classification in the DSM*."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)
(*Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)


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