Ruth Stout , here I come
 

I have her book somewhere , but remember the basics . Next summer I will be
embarking on a no-till project
I do this partly because the soil is poor and partly because I'm on a
slope . I have figured out that my steadily declining yields are because
I've allowed the best part of my soil wash away ... this year will see
terraces and dedicated walkways to prevent soil compaction . I'll also be
mulching heavily both as a weed control measure and to add organic matter to
the soil . Samples will soon be sent off to the county ag office for soil
analysis - can't amend until you know what you lack ! I'll also be copying a
raised-bed technique and "compartmenting" areas just big enough that I can
just reach the center and planting stuff closer together . I need to do some
studying on companion planting - not so much to find what does well together
but to determine what will NOT grow with what .
I'm also not planning on starting my seedlings quite as early this year
....
--
Snag

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

On 1/4/2016 5:38 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
I have her book somewhere , but remember the basics . Next summer I will be
embarking on a no-till project
I do this partly because the soil is poor and partly because I'm on a
slope . I have figured out that my steadily declining yields are because
I've allowed the best part of my soil wash away ... this year will see
terraces and dedicated walkways to prevent soil compaction . I'll also be
mulching heavily both as a weed control measure and to add organic matter to
the soil . Samples will soon be sent off to the county ag office for soil
analysis - can't amend until you know what you lack ! I'll also be copying a
raised-bed technique and "compartmenting" areas just big enough that I can
just reach the center and planting stuff closer together . I need to do some
studying on companion planting - not so much to find what does well together
but to determine what will NOT grow with what .
I'm also not planning on starting my seedlings quite as early this year
...

We're still harvesting sweet chilies and eggplant Terry. Low this
morning was about 39F then warmed up to high fifties. Still cold to me
when it gets below about 80F.

We're on flat ground and garden in above ground boxes, 4' by 16' and two
that are 4 by 8. Plus the entire fence perimeter inside the backyard has
plantings also.

Sounds like you've got a plan now, seems like a lot of work too.

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

George Shirley wrote:
On 1/4/2016 5:38 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
I have her book somewhere , but remember the basics . Next summer I
will be embarking on a no-till project
I do this partly because the soil is poor and partly because I'm
on a slope . I have figured out that my steadily declining yields
are because I've allowed the best part of my soil wash away ... this
year will see terraces and dedicated walkways to prevent soil
compaction . I'll also be mulching heavily both as a weed control
measure and to add organic matter to the soil . Samples will soon be
sent off to the county ag office for soil analysis - can't amend
until you know what you lack ! I'll also be copying a raised-bed
technique and "compartmenting" areas just big enough that I can just
reach the center and planting stuff closer together . I need to do
some studying on companion planting - not so much to find what does
well together but to determine what will NOT grow with what . I'm
also not planning on starting my seedlings quite as early this year
...
We're still harvesting sweet chilies and eggplant Terry. Low this
morning was about 39F then warmed up to high fifties. Still cold to me
when it gets below about 80F.

It's already down to 26° here headed for a low of 22° - according to
Weather.com and it's usually about 3-5° colder up here than down in town .
I've recorded temps in the last few days as low as 18° , and now that winter
is here that will be closer to the normal overnight temps .


We're on flat ground and garden in above ground boxes, 4' by 16' and
two that are 4 by 8. Plus the entire fence perimeter inside the
backyard has plantings also.

Sounds like you've got a plan now, seems like a lot of work too.

Not as much work as it may seem , I try to only walk in specific places so
I don't compact the soil . Just a matter of driving pegs and running strings
to define the growing areas . I've already got most of it semi-terraced , I
just need to straighten the edges out some .
I'm hoping doing this will also help me to control the grass that has been
such a problem the last 2 summers . I have come to realize that tilling it
under just plants all those seeds it made last year ... last week I went
over the worst patches with a foundry burner (like a weed burner just
smaller) and burned as much of that dried grass as I could . I'll probably
try to burn some more before spring gets here .
--
Snag

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

On 1/4/2016 8:59 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
George Shirley wrote:
On 1/4/2016 5:38 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
I have her book somewhere , but remember the basics . Next summer I
will be embarking on a no-till project
I do this partly because the soil is poor and partly because I'm
on a slope . I have figured out that my steadily declining yields
are because I've allowed the best part of my soil wash away ... this
year will see terraces and dedicated walkways to prevent soil
compaction . I'll also be mulching heavily both as a weed control
measure and to add organic matter to the soil . Samples will soon be
sent off to the county ag office for soil analysis - can't amend
until you know what you lack ! I'll also be copying a raised-bed
technique and "compartmenting" areas just big enough that I can just
reach the center and planting stuff closer together . I need to do
some studying on companion planting - not so much to find what does
well together but to determine what will NOT grow with what . I'm
also not planning on starting my seedlings quite as early this year
...
We're still harvesting sweet chilies and eggplant Terry. Low this
morning was about 39F then warmed up to high fifties. Still cold to me
when it gets below about 80F.

It's already down to 26° here headed for a low of 22° - according to
Weather.com and it's usually about 3-5° colder up here than down in town .
I've recorded temps in the last few days as low as 18° , and now that winter
is here that will be closer to the normal overnight temps .


We're on flat ground and garden in above ground boxes, 4' by 16' and
two that are 4 by 8. Plus the entire fence perimeter inside the
backyard has plantings also.

Sounds like you've got a plan now, seems like a lot of work too.

Not as much work as it may seem , I try to only walk in specific places so
I don't compact the soil . Just a matter of driving pegs and running strings
to define the growing areas . I've already got most of it semi-terraced , I
just need to straighten the edges out some .
I'm hoping doing this will also help me to control the grass that has been
such a problem the last 2 summers . I have come to realize that tilling it
under just plants all those seeds it made last year ... last week I went
over the worst patches with a foundry burner (like a weed burner just
smaller) and burned as much of that dried grass as I could . I'll probably
try to burn some more before spring gets here .

When we gardened in the ground we had problems with St. Augustine grass,
damned stuff would grow out over concrete, grew into our pond years ago,
stuff would climb a tomato plant given the chance. Gardening in above
ground boxes has done that in. We do get the wind and bird blown weeds,
mostly nut grass, but it is easy to remove from the man made "dirt" in
our raised beds. As we age, we're in our mid seventies, I'm thinking of
raising the beds up to at least waist height. Gets really hard to squat
and bend anymore. I have one of those tractor seat scoots that does well
for me but still end up with a sore back. Mostly due to two old back
surgeries, a pot belly, and little exercise. Today is just to cold to
get out there. I keep hoping the eggplant and pepper plants will die at
any moment but they just keep on producing.

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

In article ,
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

I have her book somewhere , but remember the basics . Next summer I will be
embarking on a no-till project
I do this partly because the soil is poor and partly because I'm on a
slope . I have figured out that my steadily declining yields are because
I've allowed the best part of my soil wash away ... this year will see
terraces and dedicated walkways to prevent soil compaction . I'll also be
mulching heavily both as a weed control measure and to add organic matter to
the soil . Samples will soon be sent off to the county ag office for soil
analysis - can't amend until you know what you lack ! I'll also be copying a
raised-bed technique and "compartmenting" areas just big enough that I can
just reach the center and planting stuff closer together . I need to do some
studying on companion planting - not so much to find what does well together
but to determine what will NOT grow with what .
I'm also not planning on starting my seedlings quite as early this year
...

IIRC, Ruth cheated on her own system a bit and tilled or plowed every
few years, but got away without it other years. More an issue with clay
than other soil types. If organized and planning to till, planting a
winter cover crop (rye being the classic) is good. If planning a bit
further ahead a planting of daikon radish can help with the
sub-structure (even if not tilling - it does some "tilling" as it grows,
and if left to rot in place adds benefits.) There is also the "no-till
roller-crimper" method of dealing with cover crops (and turning them
into mulch), which might give you another welding project for the
tractor. http://www.covercrops.msu.edu/crimper/about.html

I threw caution and my usual procrastination to the wind and ordered
seeds on January 1 for a likely too-ambitious garden. General philosophy
is moving towards more perennials (berries, etc) that don't need effort
when we have no time, but I went right ahead and ordered leeks (never
have had them work, but giving it a shot again) carrots (spotty with our
soil of clay) basil (work ok if we can keep them from getting eaten by
other things), cabbage (never have tried it since I don't like it fresh,
but the sauerkraut experiments went well) lettuce and spinach and New
Zealand spinach (often disappointing in the past) corn (usually
disappointing or eaten by raccoons) peas (can be OK if not chewed off by
rodents) tomatoes (eventually do OK, getting them anything like early is
a lot of work and or a crapshoot) and beans (usually OK, trying soy for
edamame for first time.) Also trying a "decorative spring wheat" just
for giggles. Got my garlic planted, finally, on Boxing day. That is
usually fine if I don't wait until spring.

As for amendments, compost is always good, and if you are not using the
garden for a while, composting in place works. Sort out what else you
might want to add later, but fire up all the compost you can handle now.

I don't find a lot of benefit in most of my observed experiments with
companion planting, YMMV.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

On 1/5/2016 5:45 PM, Ecnerwal wrote:

IIRC, Ruth cheated on her own system a bit and tilled or plowed every
few years, but got away without it other years. More an issue with clay
than other soil types. If organized and planning to till, planting a
winter cover crop (rye being the classic) is good. If planning a bit
further ahead a planting of daikon radish can help with the
sub-structure (even if not tilling - it does some "tilling" as it grows,
and if left to rot in place adds benefits.) There is also the "no-till
roller-crimper" method of dealing with cover crops (and turning them
into mulch), which might give you another welding project for the
tractor. http://www.covercrops.msu.edu/crimper/about.html

I threw caution and my usual procrastination to the wind and ordered
seeds on January 1 for a likely too-ambitious garden. General philosophy
is moving towards more perennials (berries, etc) that don't need effort
when we have no time, but I went right ahead and ordered leeks (never
have had them work, but giving it a shot again) carrots (spotty with our
soil of clay) basil (work ok if we can keep them from getting eaten by
other things), cabbage (never have tried it since I don't like it fresh,
but the sauerkraut experiments went well) lettuce and spinach and New
Zealand spinach (often disappointing in the past) corn (usually
disappointing or eaten by raccoons) peas (can be OK if not chewed off by
rodents) tomatoes (eventually do OK, getting them anything like early is
a lot of work and or a crapshoot) and beans (usually OK, trying soy for
edamame for first time.) Also trying a "decorative spring wheat" just
for giggles. Got my garlic planted, finally, on Boxing day. That is
usually fine if I don't wait until spring.
Our plantings are so small nowadays a packet of seed generally lasts two
years and sometimes three. We keep them in the fridge sealed in an air
tight container.

We grew leeks two years ago and they got very large. Neither of us cared
for the taste so quit growing them. We broke up some clay soil back in
Louisiana years ago with a Mexican plant that got as big as your head.
The taste was good when immature but we didn't care for the taste of the
full grown root. Don't remember the name anymore. With the raised beds
and Mel's Mix from Square Foot Gardening we don't have soil problems
anymore. Reminds me I need to start mixing the mix to add to the raised
beds before to long.

Going to cut loose about a ten lb cabbage head tomorrow and turn it into
kraut. There's a six or seven lb cauliflower out there too. Wife likes
cauliflower roasted, grilled, or sauteed, I only like it pickled. Looks
like we can have all of the above with this head. Kale is going nuts as
is the chard and other winter plants. We've had so many hot days
followed by cool nights the whole garden is going nuts. The pear tree
still has its leaves, generally gone by December. Now I'm worrying it
will bloom and then we'll get a frost.

That's Texas weather, if you don't like it wait for tomorrow and it will
change, one way or another.

As for amendments, compost is always good, and if you are not using the
garden for a while, composting in place works. Sort out what else you
might want to add later, but fire up all the compost you can handle now.

I don't find a lot of benefit in most of my observed experiments with
companion planting, YMMV.

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

In article ,
"Terry Coombs" wrote:
studying on companion planting - not so much to find what does well together
but to determine what will NOT grow with what .

Nudged me along a bit and I went looking for free/open source planning
software (other than graph paper and #2 pencil) that appeared to
function and be getting worked on still (which came after looking at a
few that didn't function so well and had a corresponding considerable
age since last update.)

Currently playing with this one; does seem to have +/- companion plant
info, also supposed to inform about good/bad rotation planting choices
with multiple years data entered (which I haven't got to yet - though
there's remarkably little data for last year here, when bleep-all would
be what we did in the garden other than grow weeds and a very few other
things, and to complicate matters I'm trying to change-up the bedding
for next year and going forward.)

"Kitchen Garden Aid" on sourceforge. A Java-based thing (Java 7), which
will make some folks avoid it, but which also makes it cross-platform.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/kitchengarden/

I feel some holes (such as being able to put in specific varieties for
record-keeping at least, and no sign that it groks the typical
spread/scale of a plant. or gives any guidance for number per square
foot), but I haven't looked very carefully to see if they are just
interface issues or holes, and at least it is being worked on, so they
might get dealt with. It is rather square grid oriented, coming from
square foot gardening. Overall garden size is not something you can
enter to start, you just need to keep putting things in edge cells to
expand the grid (or zoom out to a small magnification, which is clunky
but does eventually work.) It does save files locally (they are also
pushing a variant that shares it to a cloud server, but that's not my
preference.) I haven't tried printing from it yet. so I don't know how
well that works or not.

This is one of the ones that looks potentially interesting but seems a
bit moribund (May 24, 2013), if aimed a bit more at farms:
https://code.google.com/p/cropplanning/ I suppose it's also moribund by
virtue of being at google code, but I haven't found it updated elsewhere.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

Derald wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

I have her book somewhere , but remember the basics . Next summer I
will be embarking on a no-till project
I am a great fan of "no-till" gardening but, unfortunately, I must
shake up my beds at least once/year and dig them every third-or-so
year due to incursion of native tree roots. I read Ms Stout's first
book in the mid-'70s and, IIRC, she minimized the fairly significant
fact that she _already_ had a thriving truck garden before she
decided to stop digging.
Unfortunately, new gardeners who see her book and/or who give
credence to the great mass of "Pollyanna" (and largely fictitious,
IMO) BS that abounds on the W3 about "no-till" and "lasagna"
gardening often conclude that all one need do is pile a bunch of crap
into a bed and wait for magic to happen. Well, the "magic" is
(almost) certain to occur, in most climates, but the expectant
gardener could be long dead. I am a strong advocate (and long-time
practitioner) of
chemical-free, wide-row gardening, especially for new installations in
areas with less than perfect soil texture-that is, most of North
America;-) Toward that end, I found early issues of "The Mother Earth
News" (first five or ten years) as well as Dick Raymond's _The Joy of
Gardening_ (1982, Garden Way Inc.) informative. Raymond's _Dick
Raymond's Gardening Year_ (1985, Linden Press) is also quite useful
but one must adjust the relevant dates to conform to ones latitude.
FWIW: Garden Way is the company that manufactured and sold the
"Troy Built" brand of gasoline powered rotary tillers and which also
sponsored Raymond's teevee "infomercials". However, regardless of
ones view of rototilling, the principles and information remain valid.
Through it all one cannot overemphsize the importance of succession
planting (so-called "relay planting") and of crop rotation. If you
don't already do so, start a garden journal that at least record
planting dates and location, 80% germination date, date of first
harvest, date of removal from the garden. After a few seasons, that
information will prove useful in planning companion and succession
planting.
The URLs following are sites that offer companion planting
guidance, much of it redundant, and all to be taken with the
proverbial GoS: One should always, always, take the evidence
perceived by ones own lying eyes over _anything_ some unknown-to-you
"expert" presents as "gospel", although it might pay to determine why
any divergence between your experience and The Truth exists. The
following are valid a/o this writing.

http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/companion-planting-guide-zmaz81mjzraw.aspx#axzz2nTqprCoo
http://www.burpeehomegardens.com/VegetableHerbGardening/_CompanionPlants.aspx
http://naturewiseplants.com/documents/CompanionPlants.pdf
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/compatible-plants-onions-garlic-22804.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companion_plants#Vegetables
http://www.the-gardeners-calendar.co.uk/Companion_Planting/companiontables.asp
http://www.sgaonline.org.au/companion-planting/

All of the above links are from my W3 bookmarks. However, IMO,
contents should be regarded as largely anecdotal and inherently
unreliable when used in any specific application. Although it seems
obvious, that "companions" must have common nutrient and water
requirements often is overlooked. Failure of individual varieties to
thrive when interplanted in a community garden might be interpreted as
"antagonism" when the cuase really is nutritional deficiency or
imbalance or even disease. We gardeners seem to have a bit of the
gambler's fallacy about us but, then, would a pessimist be gardening
in the first place?
Finally: Nothing to offer about when to start seeds in your part of
Arkansas(?). As a rule, all I start in pots (and not indoors) are
tomatoes, peppers and eggplants and that's usually some time in
February. I do so only because the juveniles don't survive well in
the wild down here. Seedlings are extremely effective cutworm and
grasshopper bait until the stems toughen a bit and for a while
thereafter the leaves remain at risk.

Thanks Derald ! Lots of good info there . My biggest problem here is that
I've let what decent soil I have get washed downhill . Thus the terraces ,
and heavy mulch to help keep rainwater from washing what I do have left
away - and to get that organic stuff into the soil . I will till this year
to incorporate what organics I have into the soil and to be sure I start
with it loose . Also to finish defining the terraces .

--
Snag

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

Derald wrote:
Terry Coombs wrote:

I have her book somewhere , but remember the basics . Next summer I will be
embarking on a no-till project

I am a great fan of "no-till" gardening but, unfortunately, I must
shake up my beds at least once/year and dig them every third-or-so year
due to incursion of native tree roots. I read Ms Stout's first book in
the mid-'70s and, IIRC, she minimized the fairly significant fact that
she _already_ had a thriving truck garden before she decided to stop
digging.

yeah...

Derald you do have to recognize that the OP is
dealing with sloped areas and that's always a challenge
when one combines that with clay and the potential for
heavy rains. surface mulching (whether you call it
lasagna gardening or whatever else) is going to be an
important part of any gardening in such an area until
it gets covered again with vegetation.

terracing and soaking in rains can only go so far too
without it being a potential hazard (soak in too much
water and you end up having the entire hillside slip).


Unfortunately, new gardeners who see her book and/or who give
credence to the great mass of "Pollyanna" (and largely fictitious, IMO)
BS that abounds on the W3 about "no-till" and "lasagna" gardening often
conclude that all one need do is pile a bunch of crap into a bed and
wait for magic to happen. Well, the "magic" is (almost) certain to
occur, in most climates, but the expectant gardener could be long dead.

hmm, while i don't practive no-till in all of the
gardens here those gardens which are not tilled are those
that are very productive vs. how much effort i have to
expend on them.

i practice minimal soil disturbance methods in 80-90%
of the veggie garden area and the rest gets moved by
shovel so it isn't shredded.

depends a lot too upon what i have extra to bury too
as i'd rather stash extra organic materials underground
where the worms can get at them.

minimal till, i'm not into doing things just because
- i am into doing things which improve the soil the
most and so far i'm liking how it is going with what
i'm doing and how little effort i actually have to
expend for most of the gardens.

as i keep consolidating gardens it has made it a lot
easier to work in them. dedicated pathways, the less
of those i have the better. if you must have them use
organic mulching materials and then at least you can
come through later and turn it all under and plant it.


I am a strong advocate (and long-time practitioner) of
chemical-free, wide-row gardening, especially for new installations in
areas with less than perfect soil texture—that is, most of North
America;-) Toward that end, I found early issues of "The Mother Earth
News" (first five or ten years) as well as Dick Raymond's _The Joy of
Gardening_ (1982, Garden Way Inc.) informative. Raymond's _Dick
Raymond's Gardening Year_ (1985, Linden Press) is also quite useful but
one must adjust the relevant dates to conform to ones latitude.
FWIW: Garden Way is the company that manufactured and sold the
"Troy Built" brand of gasoline powered rotary tillers and which also
sponsored Raymond's teevee "infomercials". However, regardless of ones
view of rototilling, the principles and information remain valid.

heh, well as i've found out here they don't work well in
clay when it is either too wet or too dry and destroy the
creatures in the soil that i most want to encourage so i've
not done it since. the worms are much happier now (yes i
take a poll :) ).

the other trouble we had with them is that for the small
garden plots we had they made more of a mess than a help.

the money spent on the tillers (two, several hundred each)
could easily have financed my seed, tool and hose buys for
the next 10 - 20 years.


Through it all one cannot overemphsize the importance of succession
planting (so-called "relay planting") and of crop rotation. If you
don't already do so, start a garden journal that at least record
planting dates and location, 80% germination date, date of first
harvest, date of removal from the garden. After a few seasons, that
information will prove useful in planning companion and succession
planting.

crop rotation is how i make my amending efforts go
as far as possible. very efficient.


songbird

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

On 1/6/2016 9:32 PM, Derald wrote:
"Terry Coombs" wrote:

Also to finish defining the terraces .
How defined will the terraces be? If you really are starting over,
have you considered raised beds? I neglected to mention that since
2008, I've gardened in raised beds that my wife built in 1997 and
gardened in for a few years and, despite a few drawbacks, find them
advantageous over attempting to maintain the native soil, as I had done
previously. In this part of Florida, the only thing that changes within
the first 20-30 feet of digging is the color of the sand.

And that's the reason we now garden in raised beds. It's hard to make a
garden on five feet of Houston gumbo clay fill. The beds of flowers are
amended each year as they are in the clay. We dug out three full size
pick up beds of clay, hauled it around to the back fence, which was
teetering on falling over, and packed the clay in there. Saved the sorry
ass fence, which will be replaced this year, and kept the critters from
the detention pond from coming under the fence and eating our garden.
The snakes alone kept us busy for a while. Mostly harmless water snakes
with the odd water moccasin thrown in. The rat terrier no longer has to
patrol the back fence and bring us trophies of the kill.

Another plus is that we have rolling garden seats and use them along the
sides of the raised beds, helping elderly backs and still getting the
weeding, etc. done. Weeds seem to have an affinity for raised beds,
either that or the birds like to seed them. G We get free fertilizer
as one of the beds is under the power lines to a point and the birds
rest there frequently.

Heavy rain last night around 10 pm, lasted until the wee hours of the
morning. Knocked the power out twice. It seems our portion of Harris
Cty, TX needs some new electric wires and stations, don't know when we
get it though. Neighbors two doors down are on a different sub station
and their lights are always on. The rain makes sleeping better, the
thunder makes it difficult for the dawg to sleep. Oh well, such is
gardening and sleeping for old people.

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

Derald wrote:
songbird wrote:

the money spent on the tillers (two, several hundred each)
could easily have financed my seed, tool and hose buys for
the next 10 - 20 years.

That's something I've never done. The closest I've come to a power
gardening tool is my dad's Derald-powered push plow. As you know, by
"tilling" (as distinct from "rototilling"), I mean using hands,
four-tined spading fork, or shovel, pretty much in that order of
priority/frequency. Hands and/or fork blend in a pretty standard blend
of amendments plus a healthy dose of alfalfa and a fair share of
whatever compost may be available along with whatever volume of
legendary horse dung looks "right". Sometimes, though, I just push back
the mulch and plant, just like Ruth Stout.

it was done long before i moved back here, and both
were destroyed along with other equipment before my
time. now all that extra dead metal and wasted space
hogging stuff is gone and we're down to one large
weedwhacker which i've not needed to use since 2006, the
lawn mower and the hedge trimmers (which are useful for
chopping back the green manure patch).

there are some gardens here that i can do some work
in without having to use a shovel, but other than those
most of the rest of the gardens would break your hands
if you tried to stick your fingers in them. they are
getting better as i keep putting good organic stuff in
them and the worms do their magic, but like you said
before it takes time.


Harvesting compost from my "everbearing" compost pile and digging
in the garden with hands are, respectively, my two favorite gardening
activities. The shovel gets used, maybe once each year to loosen the
soil deeper than the reach of the fork and every two-three years to dig
deeply enough to cut invasive tree roots that the fork won't handle. As
you observe, tools, tillers, and such put earthworms and insects on
which I depend heavily to maintain the garden's health at risk. Hell,
no: I AM NOT OBSESSIVE with this damned gardening jones, it's just a
phase....:-)

it's a good phase IMO. :) respect for the earth is
something so many people either don't care about or
they just have no connection to it at all. go outside?
what's that? bugs? eww! etc. *sigh*

the other thing that gets me cranky is to watch the
farmers around me turn their fields into dead subsoil.
when i was a kid, when the farmers would plow the birds
would follow along behind so they could get the bugs
and the worms - now when they plow you don't see the
birds out there much at all. wish i could afford to
buy them all out around us and do a community farm
and gardens space, but i don't have that kind of $$$.


songbird

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

Terry Coombs wrote:
....
Thanks Derald ! Lots of good info there . My biggest problem here is that
I've let what decent soil I have get washed downhill . Thus the terraces ,
and heavy mulch to help keep rainwater from washing what I do have left
away - and to get that organic stuff into the soil . I will till this year
to incorporate what organics I have into the soil and to be sure I start
with it loose . Also to finish defining the terraces .

sometimes people dig up the soil at the bottom of the hill
and haul it up to the top again. :)

is the cold weather getting down your ways?


songbird

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

songbird wrote:
Terry Coombs wrote:
...
Thanks Derald ! Lots of good info there . My biggest problem here is
that I've let what decent soil I have get washed downhill . Thus the
terraces , and heavy mulch to help keep rainwater from washing what
I do have left away - and to get that organic stuff into the soil .
I will till this year to incorporate what organics I have into the
soil and to be sure I start with it loose . Also to finish defining
the terraces .

sometimes people dig up the soil at the bottom of the hill
and haul it up to the top again. :)

is the cold weather getting down your ways?


songbird

Up here they call it "ass-bitin' cold ". It was around 15° this morning at
3 when I was outside trying to get the generator running because the power
was out . With around 2" of fresh snow on the ground ...

--
Snag

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

On 1/18/2016 5:07 PM, Terry Coombs wrote:
songbird wrote:
Terry Coombs wrote:
...
Thanks Derald ! Lots of good info there . My biggest problem here is
that I've let what decent soil I have get washed downhill . Thus the
terraces , and heavy mulch to help keep rainwater from washing what
I do have left away - and to get that organic stuff into the soil .
I will till this year to incorporate what organics I have into the
soil and to be sure I start with it loose . Also to finish defining
the terraces .

sometimes people dig up the soil at the bottom of the hill
and haul it up to the top again. :)

is the cold weather getting down your ways?


songbird

Up here they call it "ass-bitin' cold ". It was around 15° this morning at
3 when I was outside trying to get the generator running because the power
was out . With around 2" of fresh snow on the ground ...

39F this morning upon rising, now it's lots of sunshine and in the low
sixties. Winter here should be over in a few weeks, maybe sooner. Almost
time to put in the spring garden. Have a couple of huge cabbage heads to
harvest very soon, harvested a six lb cauliflower head last week, good
thing my wife likes the stuff. Her cauliflower soup does manage to stink
up the kitchen. Bah!

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

Terry Coombs wrote:
songbird wrote:
....
is the cold weather getting down your ways?

Up here they call it "ass-bitin' cold ". It was around 15° this morning at
3 when I was outside trying to get the generator running because the power
was out . With around 2" of fresh snow on the ground ...

uhg! that's about what it has been today. night time temps
are in the single digits. we've sometimes been able to get
out for some walks but i hate it when the eyelashes freeze
together when you blink.


songbird

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

songbird wrote:
Terry Coombs wrote:
songbird wrote:
...
is the cold weather getting down your ways?

Up here they call it "ass-bitin' cold ". It was around 15° this
morning at 3 when I was outside trying to get the generator running
because the power was out . With around 2" of fresh snow on the
ground ...

uhg! that's about what it has been today. night time temps
are in the single digits. we've sometimes been able to get
out for some walks but i hate it when the eyelashes freeze
together when you blink.


songbird

I hate it more when my breath condenses and freezes on my beard and 'stach
..

--
Snag

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

Terry Coombs wrote:
songbird wrote:
....
uhg! that's about what it has been today. night time temps
are in the single digits. we've sometimes been able to get
out for some walks but i hate it when the eyelashes freeze
together when you blink.

I hate it more when my breath condenses and freezes on my beard and 'stach
.

i wear a short round scarf (call it the foreskin :) )
which is also thick so that the air going out preheats the
air breathed in. saves a lot of sinus and lung troubles
for me.

i've already put winter goggles on the list for our
next outing to the stores as i really would like to be
able to see when i'm walking...


songbird

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

George Shirley wrote:
....
39F this morning upon rising, now it's lots of sunshine and in the low
sixties. Winter here should be over in a few weeks, maybe sooner. Almost
time to put in the spring garden. Have a couple of huge cabbage heads to
harvest very soon, harvested a six lb cauliflower head last week, good
thing my wife likes the stuff. Her cauliflower soup does manage to stink
up the kitchen. Bah!

sounds wonderful! :)


songbird

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

On 1/19/2016 8:51 AM, songbird wrote:
Terry Coombs wrote:
songbird wrote:
...
uhg! that's about what it has been today. night time temps
are in the single digits. we've sometimes been able to get
out for some walks but i hate it when the eyelashes freeze
together when you blink.

I hate it more when my breath condenses and freezes on my beard and 'stach
.

i wear a short round scarf (call it the foreskin :) )
which is also thick so that the air going out preheats the
air breathed in. saves a lot of sinus and lung troubles
for me.

i've already put winter goggles on the list for our
next outing to the stores as i really would like to be
able to see when i'm walking...


songbird

Look around for one of those military surplus felt face masks. We used
those anytime we were topside on a destroyer in the Arctic. Beat frozen
nose hair and eyebrow's, not to mention my 'stache. I think I've
mentioned before how much I hate cold weather. G

49F out this morning and a lot of sunshine, forecast for mucho rain
coming though. Won't be long before spring is here in SE Texas. Finally
pulled up the eggplants, the sweet chilies are still producing and
haven't been frostbitten as yet.

Won't be long until the fruit trees are blooming and getting leaves on.

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

George Shirley wrote:
On 1/19/2016 8:51 AM, songbird wrote:
Terry Coombs wrote:
songbird wrote:
...
uhg! that's about what it has been today. night time temps
are in the single digits. we've sometimes been able to get
out for some walks but i hate it when the eyelashes freeze
together when you blink.

I hate it more when my breath condenses and freezes on my beard
and 'stach .

i wear a short round scarf (call it the foreskin :) )
which is also thick so that the air going out preheats the
air breathed in. saves a lot of sinus and lung troubles
for me.

i've already put winter goggles on the list for our
next outing to the stores as i really would like to be
able to see when i'm walking...


songbird

Look around for one of those military surplus felt face masks. We used
those anytime we were topside on a destroyer in the Arctic. Beat
frozen nose hair and eyebrow's, not to mention my 'stache. I think
I've mentioned before how much I hate cold weather. G

49F out this morning and a lot of sunshine, forecast for mucho rain
coming though. Won't be long before spring is here in SE Texas.
Finally pulled up the eggplants, the sweet chilies are still
producing and haven't been frostbitten as yet.

Won't be long until the fruit trees are blooming and getting leaves
on.

I have one of those full face things , I wear it when I ride the
motorcycle in subfreezing temps . It's up to 26° here , predictred high of
32° but I don't think it'll make that up here in The Holler . And there's a
90% chance for 1-3" of snow tonight ...
Fruit trees - mine have been in the ground for 1 and 2 years , they aren't
doing so well. Suggestions for a fertilizer that's eco-friendly ? These have
never had anything but a little fish emulsion last summer , and I'd like to
see them grow more , they haven't gottan any bigger since they were planted
..
--
Snag

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

On 1/19/2016 9:28 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:

Fruit trees - mine have been in the ground for 1 and 2 years , they aren't
doing so well. Suggestions for a fertilizer that's eco-friendly ? These have
never had anything but a little fish emulsion last summer , and I'd like to
see them grow more , they haven't gottan any bigger since they were planted
.
--
Snag


We have the same problem, a kumquat and a fig tree in the backyard. We
had to dig holes in the gumbo clay and I'm afraid we didn't dig the
holes wide enough or deep enough. The trees are growing very slowly but
are still producing a decent crop of fruit. We usually add a little
composted cow manure every few months and that helps.

At our former home we had very deep loam soil from eons of tree leaves
falling on what had, a long time ago, been a sand dune (think ancient
bottom of the Gulf of Mexico). Fruit trees shot up like they were on
steroids there. I miss that soil and am willing to bet that under that
five feet of clay in the back there is another ancient sea bed that
would have done the job. Albeit that the clay was laid down to keep us
from having to pay for gubmint flood insurance.

I'm thinking of devising something that I could drive down around the
trees to penetrate the clay some more and then add fertilizer of some
sort to help the roots spread wider and deeper.

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

George Shirley wrote:
On 1/19/2016 9:28 AM, Terry Coombs wrote:

Fruit trees - mine have been in the ground for 1 and 2 years , they aren't
doing so well. Suggestions for a fertilizer that's eco-friendly ? These have
never had anything but a little fish emulsion last summer , and I'd like to
see them grow more , they haven't gottan any bigger since they were planted

what kind of fruit trees? are they on grafted rootstock?
how were they planted? how much light do they get? how
much water? soil conditions?


We have the same problem, a kumquat and a fig tree in the backyard. We
had to dig holes in the gumbo clay and I'm afraid we didn't dig the
holes wide enough or deep enough. The trees are growing very slowly but
are still producing a decent crop of fruit. We usually add a little
composted cow manure every few months and that helps.

At our former home we had very deep loam soil from eons of tree leaves
falling on what had, a long time ago, been a sand dune (think ancient
bottom of the Gulf of Mexico). Fruit trees shot up like they were on
steroids there. I miss that soil and am willing to bet that under that
five feet of clay in the back there is another ancient sea bed that
would have done the job. Albeit that the clay was laid down to keep us
from having to pay for gubmint flood insurance.

I'm thinking of devising something that I could drive down around the
trees to penetrate the clay some more and then add fertilizer of some
sort to help the roots spread wider and deeper.

i've seen various methods for planting fruit trees in
difficult conditions (read Sepp Holzer's works sometime :) ).

once the tree is already in i suppose you could go
back and gently dig down close to the tree to find the
roots and then trench outwards through the clay and then
fill that trench in with better quality soil. (it would
look like an asterisk or the spokes of a wheel). the roots
will follow that trench outwards. you'll have to keep
topping it off as the organic material decays, but it
should help as long as the slope is not towards the
tree (it should be level -- clay will eventually soak
up any extra water in there).

in the future the much easier method is to just make a
pile of the best soil you can including plenty of good
organic materials and plant into that without doing much
digging. the tree will do much better and you can keep
adding organic materials around the tree as the pile
breaks down. no trenching or digging needed. especially
in a small area where you're putting in miniature trees.
this way you avoid water logging issues too and the
tree roots will eventually find their way down into
the clay as needed (via worm holes :) ).


songbird

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

Terry Coombs wrote:
....
Fruit trees - mine have been in the ground for 1 and 2 years , they aren't
doing so well. Suggestions for a fertilizer that's eco-friendly ? These have
never had anything but a little fish emulsion last summer , and I'd like to
see them grow more , they haven't gottan any bigger since they were planted
.

it can take a few years for them to get going. worm
castings, horse poo, rabbit poo, dead fish, plenty of
organic materials (but not right up against the tree
trunks).

i already asked these questions in the other reply,
but describing the location, what type of plants, how
much light and moisture they get, if they are mulched
(and with what), etc. is helpful.


songbird

Ruth Stout , here I come
 

In article ,
"Terry Coombs" wrote:
Fruit trees - mine have been in the ground for 1 and 2 years , they aren't
doing so well. Suggestions for a fertilizer that's eco-friendly ? These have
never had anything but a little fish emulsion last summer , and I'd like to
see them grow more , they haven't gottan any bigger since they were planted

If your trees are being shaded by the forest (I think you are in a hole
in the forest around your house), harvest some more firewood - light
makes the biggest difference. But, 1-2 years is a short time in the life
of a tree (the best time to plant one is 20 years ago, the second best
time is now.)

As for bad soil, with trees I think the best approach is to leave it be
when planting - the tree deals with what *is* and grows through it,
where a tree in a hole of improved soil in the midst of bad soil is more
prone to be potbound and unwilling to poke its roots out. For much the
same reason I think a smaller/younger new tree is better than an older
one to transplant in a difficult location. While almost everybody would
love to be on the loamy gravel, plenty of trees manage just fine on less
pleasant soils. Improve it from the top...

Build a ring of compost at the dripline - that's where most of the
feeder roots are. Potholing compost/worm fodder (dig postholes, not too
close to each other, and fill with compost/compostables) can help get
things down more, but it's more work and the worms will do that
eventually from stuff on top. But if you want to feel more active about
it, go to. As the tree manages to grow, keep the ring at the dripline
(ie, moving out.) This will also naturally keep your pile from being
built-up near the trunk, which is problematic for several reasons and to
be avoided. If you avoid anything too hot you can simply build a pile
right there, or you can start it in another location and move it to the
trees after it's cooked a few months. Shredded leaves are a good base
for whatever else you are putting there - they will break down to leaf
mold eventually and will moderate runoff/leachate from more active
compost above - don't mix them in, just layer them under, and when you
stop turning (if you turn at all) over.

Do not add fresh material when it might induce a growth spurt going into
winter. After things are fully dormant you can pile it on, but from
roughly August (northern hemisphere) until then you should hold any
collected materials in a pile _not_ around the trees - but do keep
collecting as much as you can lay your hands on, or have dropped off by
the dump-truck load. Manure, spoiled hay, mushroom compost, clean
woodash, apple pomace, lawn clippings, etc.

--
Cats, coffee, chocolate...vices to live by
Please don't feed the trolls. Killfile and ignore them so they will go away.