T wrote:
songbird wrote:
if you
got time to go around dumping or spraying you got time
to pull it or smother it IMO.

Hi Songbird,

Some blabbing and a question on the bottom for you.

Since I let my back lawn go to seed last year in hope of replacing it
with a garden, I now have weeds I never knew existed.

weeds are free organic matter, if they will grow
where nothing else will they can then be chopped
and used for other things, like building mulch or
topsoil fertility.


On of them looks like a small shade tree and it pulls really easily.
The rest suck to the ground, like the dandelions that won't die.
I have to dig these up with a shovel, which is no easy task
considering you can make some really awesome bricks out of
my soil.

My soil isn't soil anyway. I know the guy who graded my property.
My back yard is 20 feet down from top soil. It is basically
rocks and decomposed sandstone (like decomposed granite,
only way, way uglier). If you strike the ground to hard with
a shovel, it literally sparks.

How some of these weeks managed to bore their roots down in the
stuff, I will never know. And, you can only cut their tops off.
Then they grow right back and back and back. So vinegar and
soap it is, less the salt. Cussing at them doesn't work either.

The back yard is too big to cover in cardboard or plastic,
especially with the high winds we have. (Two category one
hurricane force winds last January.) Rock gardens work
with visqueen.

rock gardens are just fine ways to cover an area.
we have plenty of those here ourselves.

also, if you do not need it for anything is there
any reason to do anything with it at all? we have
some land here on the other side of the large drainage
ditch. i'd like to put some fruit trees back there
but it's so far back there and hard to get to right
now that it's just growing small shrubs and trees
now. i'll need to cut it all back in the next few
years if i don't want it to turn into woodland/trees.


Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

if you are just going to grow a few plants, i would
bring in some good topsoil add some composted cow manure
and any other organic materials i could scrounge up.

make sure the area is leveled and drainage is good
and also make sure there is a wind break to protect
against the drying winds.

that will solve the poor soil problem and your
pH will be corrected.

for the rest of the area as you can scrounge free
organic materials and chop and drop whatever weeds
that grow to get your topsoil developing environment
going. as most of the processes of forming topsoil
involve moisture it is better to have things piled
deep enough to preserve moisture than to scatter
your efforts widely. you might also be able to
scrounge free fill that is better than what you
have. even if you have to do it a few yards at a
time...

as you get an area covered and able to absorb and
store moisture then it will support worm and other
soil community creatures (you may need to innoculate
the area with soil from a healthy area). these build
topsoil and support plant life. your pH will change
as more organic matter is added.

it's just a matter of scale, what you want to put
into it, how much money you want to spend, and how
much you're willing to be patient while nature does
some work for you.


songbird

On 04/17/2016 07:32 PM, Ecnerwal wrote:
In article , T wrote:
Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

Vinegar's effect is pretty much like cutting the tops off - dubious for
really killing the whole plant, other than repeat applications
eventually exhausting the roots, or for tender young weed seedlings.
Vinegar's effect on the pH of the soil would be fleeting at best. So
it's pretty valid to say that if you have time to pour a cup of vinegar
on the plant, you have time to chop the plant off with a hoe to similar
effect.

http://hyg.ipm.illinois.edu/pastpest/200714f.html

Too late for you now, but letting weeds go to seed is NOT what you want
to do when "in hope of replacing it with a garden"

Actually, I let the lawn go to seed. The weeds stayed behind.
They were always there, just crowded out


- you want to mow the
heck out of it right up until you turn it under or bury it with good
soil.

Roots can push into some pretty inhospitable soils. Depending on your pH
range, you might select a suitable cover crop/green manure, till the
mess, and plant the cover crop, precisely for the beneficial effect of
the roots (as well as the eventual decomposing of the top mass, and the
shading out of weeds.) If your pH is less than 8.2 (you said it was
alkaline, so the lower range of 6.0-6.3 won't apply to you) alfalfa can
do wonders as part of a "green manure" program, and will shove roots
amazing distances downward.

Vast quantities of "brown manure" (up to and including sheet composting
6-12" deep) will also help (both to build soil and to buffer pH.)

You might find this a worthwhile read WRT alkaline soils:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/mg/Gardennotes/222.html
Depending on your free lime situation or lack thereof, sulfur may not or
may help with your pH (depending, of course, on exactly what it is and
if it needs help - start with a soil test.)

Thank you. I have some reading to do!

On 04/17/2016 08:25 PM, songbird wrote:
T wrote:
songbird wrote:
if you
got time to go around dumping or spraying you got time
to pull it or smother it IMO.

Hi Songbird,

Some blabbing and a question on the bottom for you.

Since I let my back lawn go to seed last year in hope of replacing it
with a garden, I now have weeds I never knew existed.

weeds are free organic matter, if they will grow
where nothing else will they can then be chopped
and used for other things, like building mulch or
topsoil fertility.


On of them looks like a small shade tree and it pulls really easily.
The rest suck to the ground, like the dandelions that won't die.
I have to dig these up with a shovel, which is no easy task
considering you can make some really awesome bricks out of
my soil.

My soil isn't soil anyway. I know the guy who graded my property.
My back yard is 20 feet down from top soil. It is basically
rocks and decomposed sandstone (like decomposed granite,
only way, way uglier). If you strike the ground to hard with
a shovel, it literally sparks.

How some of these weeks managed to bore their roots down in the
stuff, I will never know. And, you can only cut their tops off.
Then they grow right back and back and back. So vinegar and
soap it is, less the salt. Cussing at them doesn't work either.

The back yard is too big to cover in cardboard or plastic,
especially with the high winds we have. (Two category one
hurricane force winds last January.) Rock gardens work
with visqueen.

rock gardens are just fine ways to cover an area.
we have plenty of those here ourselves.

also, if you do not need it for anything is there
any reason to do anything with it at all? we have
some land here on the other side of the large drainage
ditch. i'd like to put some fruit trees back there
but it's so far back there and hard to get to right
now that it's just growing small shrubs and trees
now. i'll need to cut it all back in the next few
years if i don't want it to turn into woodland/trees.


Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

if you are just going to grow a few plants, i would
bring in some good topsoil add some composted cow manure
and any other organic materials i could scrounge up.

make sure the area is leveled and drainage is good
and also make sure there is a wind break to protect
against the drying winds.

that will solve the poor soil problem and your
pH will be corrected.

for the rest of the area as you can scrounge free
organic materials and chop and drop whatever weeds
that grow to get your topsoil developing environment
going. as most of the processes of forming topsoil
involve moisture it is better to have things piled
deep enough to preserve moisture than to scatter
your efforts widely. you might also be able to
scrounge free fill that is better than what you
have. even if you have to do it a few yards at a
time...

as you get an area covered and able to absorb and
store moisture then it will support worm and other
soil community creatures (you may need to innoculate
the area with soil from a healthy area). these build
topsoil and support plant life. your pH will change
as more organic matter is added.

it's just a matter of scale, what you want to put
into it, how much money you want to spend, and how
much you're willing to be patient while nature does
some work for you.


songbird


Thank you. I am wondering where to get some cow poop.
We have lots of cows about, but I haven't seen anyone
selling it.

I got in late last night. I put my headset on and cut
a four foot wide swath through the weeds. When I am done
picking them and they dry out a bit, I am planning on
digging them into holes that I will eventually
plant zukes in.

Here is an interesting observation. I think the weeds
were always there in my lawn. When the grass dies,
the weeds stayed.

On 4/19/2016 3:04 PM, T wrote:
On 04/17/2016 08:25 PM, songbird wrote:
T wrote:
songbird wrote:
if you
got time to go around dumping or spraying you got time
to pull it or smother it IMO.

Hi Songbird,

Some blabbing and a question on the bottom for you.

Since I let my back lawn go to seed last year in hope of replacing it
with a garden, I now have weeds I never knew existed.

weeds are free organic matter, if they will grow
where nothing else will they can then be chopped
and used for other things, like building mulch or
topsoil fertility.


On of them looks like a small shade tree and it pulls really easily.
The rest suck to the ground, like the dandelions that won't die.
I have to dig these up with a shovel, which is no easy task
considering you can make some really awesome bricks out of
my soil.

My soil isn't soil anyway. I know the guy who graded my property.
My back yard is 20 feet down from top soil. It is basically
rocks and decomposed sandstone (like decomposed granite,
only way, way uglier). If you strike the ground to hard with
a shovel, it literally sparks.

How some of these weeks managed to bore their roots down in the
stuff, I will never know. And, you can only cut their tops off.
Then they grow right back and back and back. So vinegar and
soap it is, less the salt. Cussing at them doesn't work either.

The back yard is too big to cover in cardboard or plastic,
especially with the high winds we have. (Two category one
hurricane force winds last January.) Rock gardens work
with visqueen.

rock gardens are just fine ways to cover an area.
we have plenty of those here ourselves.

also, if you do not need it for anything is there
any reason to do anything with it at all? we have
some land here on the other side of the large drainage
ditch. i'd like to put some fruit trees back there
but it's so far back there and hard to get to right
now that it's just growing small shrubs and trees
now. i'll need to cut it all back in the next few
years if i don't want it to turn into woodland/trees.


Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

if you are just going to grow a few plants, i would
bring in some good topsoil add some composted cow manure
and any other organic materials i could scrounge up.

make sure the area is leveled and drainage is good
and also make sure there is a wind break to protect
against the drying winds.

that will solve the poor soil problem and your
pH will be corrected.

for the rest of the area as you can scrounge free
organic materials and chop and drop whatever weeds
that grow to get your topsoil developing environment
going. as most of the processes of forming topsoil
involve moisture it is better to have things piled
deep enough to preserve moisture than to scatter
your efforts widely. you might also be able to
scrounge free fill that is better than what you
have. even if you have to do it a few yards at a
time...

as you get an area covered and able to absorb and
store moisture then it will support worm and other
soil community creatures (you may need to innoculate
the area with soil from a healthy area). these build
topsoil and support plant life. your pH will change
as more organic matter is added.

it's just a matter of scale, what you want to put
into it, how much money you want to spend, and how
much you're willing to be patient while nature does
some work for you.


songbird


Thank you. I am wondering where to get some cow poop.
We have lots of cows about, but I haven't seen anyone
selling it.
We've had good luck in asking about getting the cow manure and shovel it
yourself into a trailer or pick-up. Worked for us for many years. There
is a compost called "Black Cow" available at Lowe's. Now that we
basically live on the outskirts of Houston, TX that's where we get our
manure. Works well.

I got in late last night. I put my headset on and cut
a four foot wide swath through the weeds. When I am done
picking them and they dry out a bit, I am planning on
digging them into holes that I will eventually
plant zukes in.
The smaller you cut the weeds the faster they rot. I usually run over
them with the mower two or three times and it gets smaller each time

Here is an interesting observation. I think the weeds
were always there in my lawn. When the grass dies,
the weeds stayed.
Weeds are much hardier than grass. We are pestered with dandelions and
nut grass, takes patience and finger strength to get the !@#$% things
out of the ground. Wife enjoys it so I let her take the lead on weed
pulling. She lived further out in the country than I did before we
married. G

T wrote:
....
Thank you. I am wondering where to get some cow poop.
We have lots of cows about, but I haven't seen anyone
selling it.

may not be around easily found if all the cattle are
free range and no dairies. the home depot option is
fine for small amounts needed if you are doing small
patch amending.

worms/worm castings are good too and you can use
those weed scraps as part of the food.


I got in late last night. I put my headset on and cut
a four foot wide swath through the weeds. When I am done
picking them and they dry out a bit, I am planning on
digging them into holes that I will eventually
plant zukes in.

you'll want some green stuff in there too, get it
in a few weeks before you put the plants in. if you
do a few layers deep alternating green stuff, brown
stuff and some dirt, topsoil and composted cow manure
you'll have a nice start. keep it damp (not needed to
be super soggy).


Here is an interesting observation. I think the weeds
were always there in my lawn. When the grass dies,
the weeds stayed.

there is usually some remaining seeds in almost any soil
unless it has been sterilized in some manner. the seeds
of some plants will last quite a long time (especially in
the more arid climates). i heard that crab grass seed
can last 75yrs... i don't much care for lawns/grass and
everything being even and perfect. a mulching mower and
frequent trimming when the wet/growing season is on will
select for plants that can tolerate that sort of treatment.
good enough for me until i can get rid of the mower
entirely.

for very hard soils i'd just go up top with hay bales
and use them to frame a small area and plant the zukes
into a mix of topsoil and composted cow manure or the worm
castings. the hay bales will eventually break down and
turn into humus. they have more weed seeds than straw
bales, but i like having green stuff eventually rotting.
some people mulch with straw, we usually have wood
chips. when those rot they turn into prime humus. if
you can find anyone trimming trees and grinding them up
they are often happy to deliver a truckload if they
happen to be in your area, just ask.

because i want woody materials to last longer rather
than rot fast i don't want things shredded too finely.
some larger chunks are good, they help hold moisture.
as a top mulch i want fairly large chips or even have
used pieces of bark to cover in between plants (sometimes
with cardboard underneath them).

really, it doesn't matter what exact organic materials
you can find or grow, most of will break down into humus
eventually if you have moisture/rains and the soil critters
to help things out (and fungi too).


songbird

George Shirley wrote:
....
Weeds are much hardier than grass. We are pestered with dandelions and
nut grass, takes patience and finger strength to get the !@#$% things
out of the ground. Wife enjoys it so I let her take the lead on weed
pulling. She lived further out in the country than I did before we
married. G

hahaha...

we have areas where we've never weeded. the rabbits seem
to selectively eat the weeds and leave most of the grass
alone. we just mow it once in a while with a mulching mower
so there is no raking involved.

there is a few areas that are crab grass invaded but those
are all patches that exist because Ma sprays herbicides and
it leaves bare soil that the crab grass will get going in
too easily. i try to keep them weeded if i can, but i can't
always keep up so it's just what it is. if i stay longer
term all the grass will be turned into gardens and the
mower will go away. i can trim some areas with the hedge
trimmer or a string trimmer (with a cutting blade) as needed.

alfalfa is a good crop for green manure (free N fertilizer).


songbird

On 4/19/2016 7:59 PM, songbird wrote:
George Shirley wrote:
...
Weeds are much hardier than grass. We are pestered with dandelions and
nut grass, takes patience and finger strength to get the !@#$% things
out of the ground. Wife enjoys it so I let her take the lead on weed
pulling. She lived further out in the country than I did before we
married. G

hahaha...

we have areas where we've never weeded. the rabbits seem
to selectively eat the weeds and leave most of the grass
alone. we just mow it once in a while with a mulching mower
so there is no raking involved.
We haven't seen any rabbits yet. Wouldn't mind seeing one in the
evening, break out the air rifle with the suppressor and the scope, runs
at about 1250 fps and should take out a rabbit for dinner.

A flock of white Muscovy ducks landed on the retention pond this
afternoon. They're not native so they're free game. Unfortunately there
were people walking around the pond. Dang!

there is a few areas that are crab grass invaded but those
are all patches that exist because Ma sprays herbicides and
it leaves bare soil that the crab grass will get going in
too easily. i try to keep them weeded if i can, but i can't
always keep up so it's just what it is. if i stay longer
term all the grass will be turned into gardens and the
mower will go away. i can trim some areas with the hedge
trimmer or a string trimmer (with a cutting blade) as needed.

alfalfa is a good crop for green manure (free N fertilizer).


songbird

We got a truck load of spoiled alfalfa many years ago for free and
another truck load of spoiled plain grass hay. Big storm east of us and
caught some truckers without cover. Friend of mine who was dealing with
them had them come over to our old place with 10 acres and the unloaded
on us. Stacked the bales around the big garden up to about eight feet
tall and the tomatoes and peppers made fruit all winter. Gradually it
all rotted away, pulled out the strings and scattered over a place we
wanted to turn into a bean field. Had lots of beans and other veggies
for several years.

Haven't seen any hay truck but once since then. Don't think we had any
droughts for a long time either.

No rain today, maybe tomorrow. Gardens and other plants got so much
water this past week we're having to fertilize again.

George

On 04/19/2016 05:48 PM, songbird wrote:
T wrote:
...
Thank you. I am wondering where to get some cow poop.
We have lots of cows about, but I haven't seen anyone
selling it.

may not be around easily found if all the cattle are
free range and no dairies. the home depot option is
fine for small amounts needed if you are doing small
patch amending.

worms/worm castings are good too and you can use
those weed scraps as part of the food.


I got in late last night. I put my headset on and cut
a four foot wide swath through the weeds. When I am done
picking them and they dry out a bit, I am planning on
digging them into holes that I will eventually
plant zukes in.

you'll want some green stuff in there too, get it
in a few weeks before you put the plants in. if you
do a few layers deep alternating green stuff, brown
stuff and some dirt, topsoil and composted cow manure
you'll have a nice start. keep it damp (not needed to
be super soggy).


Here is an interesting observation. I think the weeds
were always there in my lawn. When the grass dies,
the weeds stayed.

there is usually some remaining seeds in almost any soil
unless it has been sterilized in some manner. the seeds
of some plants will last quite a long time (especially in
the more arid climates). i heard that crab grass seed
can last 75yrs... i don't much care for lawns/grass and
everything being even and perfect. a mulching mower and
frequent trimming when the wet/growing season is on will
select for plants that can tolerate that sort of treatment.
good enough for me until i can get rid of the mower
entirely.

for very hard soils i'd just go up top with hay bales
and use them to frame a small area and plant the zukes
into a mix of topsoil and composted cow manure or the worm
castings. the hay bales will eventually break down and
turn into humus. they have more weed seeds than straw
bales, but i like having green stuff eventually rotting.
some people mulch with straw, we usually have wood
chips. when those rot they turn into prime humus. if
you can find anyone trimming trees and grinding them up
they are often happy to deliver a truckload if they
happen to be in your area, just ask.

because i want woody materials to last longer rather
than rot fast i don't want things shredded too finely.
some larger chunks are good, they help hold moisture.
as a top mulch i want fairly large chips or even have
used pieces of bark to cover in between plants (sometimes
with cardboard underneath them).

really, it doesn't matter what exact organic materials
you can find or grow, most of will break down into humus
eventually if you have moisture/rains and the soil critters
to help things out (and fungi too).


songbird


Thank you!

The dandelions I recognize as I have been trying to kill them
for years. Vinegar might not kill them, but it sure screws them
something terrible, so it may only be an emotional thing for me.

Cow poop it is! I will see what I can find in a bag. Hope
getting it home doesn't stick up my car.

-T

On 04/19/2016 02:02 PM, George Shirley wrote:
On 4/19/2016 3:04 PM, T wrote:
On 04/17/2016 08:25 PM, songbird wrote:
T wrote:
songbird wrote:
if you
got time to go around dumping or spraying you got time
to pull it or smother it IMO.

Hi Songbird,

Some blabbing and a question on the bottom for you.

Since I let my back lawn go to seed last year in hope of replacing it
with a garden, I now have weeds I never knew existed.

weeds are free organic matter, if they will grow
where nothing else will they can then be chopped
and used for other things, like building mulch or
topsoil fertility.


On of them looks like a small shade tree and it pulls really easily.
The rest suck to the ground, like the dandelions that won't die.
I have to dig these up with a shovel, which is no easy task
considering you can make some really awesome bricks out of
my soil.

My soil isn't soil anyway. I know the guy who graded my property.
My back yard is 20 feet down from top soil. It is basically
rocks and decomposed sandstone (like decomposed granite,
only way, way uglier). If you strike the ground to hard with
a shovel, it literally sparks.

How some of these weeks managed to bore their roots down in the
stuff, I will never know. And, you can only cut their tops off.
Then they grow right back and back and back. So vinegar and
soap it is, less the salt. Cussing at them doesn't work either.

The back yard is too big to cover in cardboard or plastic,
especially with the high winds we have. (Two category one
hurricane force winds last January.) Rock gardens work
with visqueen.

rock gardens are just fine ways to cover an area.
we have plenty of those here ourselves.

also, if you do not need it for anything is there
any reason to do anything with it at all? we have
some land here on the other side of the large drainage
ditch. i'd like to put some fruit trees back there
but it's so far back there and hard to get to right
now that it's just growing small shrubs and trees
now. i'll need to cut it all back in the next few
years if i don't want it to turn into woodland/trees.


Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

if you are just going to grow a few plants, i would
bring in some good topsoil add some composted cow manure
and any other organic materials i could scrounge up.

make sure the area is leveled and drainage is good
and also make sure there is a wind break to protect
against the drying winds.

that will solve the poor soil problem and your
pH will be corrected.

for the rest of the area as you can scrounge free
organic materials and chop and drop whatever weeds
that grow to get your topsoil developing environment
going. as most of the processes of forming topsoil
involve moisture it is better to have things piled
deep enough to preserve moisture than to scatter
your efforts widely. you might also be able to
scrounge free fill that is better than what you
have. even if you have to do it a few yards at a
time...

as you get an area covered and able to absorb and
store moisture then it will support worm and other
soil community creatures (you may need to innoculate
the area with soil from a healthy area). these build
topsoil and support plant life. your pH will change
as more organic matter is added.

it's just a matter of scale, what you want to put
into it, how much money you want to spend, and how
much you're willing to be patient while nature does
some work for you.


songbird


Thank you. I am wondering where to get some cow poop.
We have lots of cows about, but I haven't seen anyone
selling it.
We've had good luck in asking about getting the cow manure and shovel it
yourself into a trailer or pick-up. Worked for us for many years. There
is a compost called "Black Cow" available at Lowe's. Now that we
basically live on the outskirts of Houston, TX that's where we get our
manure. Works well.

I got in late last night. I put my headset on and cut
a four foot wide swath through the weeds. When I am done
picking them and they dry out a bit, I am planning on
digging them into holes that I will eventually
plant zukes in.
The smaller you cut the weeds the faster they rot. I usually run over
them with the mower two or three times and it gets smaller each time

Here is an interesting observation. I think the weeds
were always there in my lawn. When the grass dies,
the weeds stayed.
Weeds are much hardier than grass. We are pestered with dandelions and
nut grass, takes patience and finger strength to get the !@#$% things
out of the ground. Wife enjoys it so I let her take the lead on weed
pulling. She lived further out in the country than I did before we
married. G

Thank you!

No pickup truck and no lawn mover.

Just out of curiosity, how deep do you have to go to
keep the little buzzards seeds/root from coming back up?

I am planning on planting two more Ponderosa Pines to kep
my other one company. Their needles will eventually acidify
the soil and provide some ground cover.

On 04/19/2016 06:12 PM, George Shirley wrote:
On 4/19/2016 7:59 PM, songbird wrote:
George Shirley wrote:
...
Weeds are much hardier than grass. We are pestered with dandelions and
nut grass, takes patience and finger strength to get the !@#$% things
out of the ground. Wife enjoys it so I let her take the lead on weed
pulling. She lived further out in the country than I did before we
married. G

hahaha...

we have areas where we've never weeded. the rabbits seem
to selectively eat the weeds and leave most of the grass
alone. we just mow it once in a while with a mulching mower
so there is no raking involved.
We haven't seen any rabbits yet. Wouldn't mind seeing one in the
evening, break out the air rifle with the suppressor and the scope, runs
at about 1250 fps and should take out a rabbit for dinner.

A flock of white Muscovy ducks landed on the retention pond this
afternoon. They're not native so they're free game. Unfortunately there
were people walking around the pond. Dang!

there is a few areas that are crab grass invaded but those
are all patches that exist because Ma sprays herbicides and
it leaves bare soil that the crab grass will get going in
too easily. i try to keep them weeded if i can, but i can't
always keep up so it's just what it is. if i stay longer
term all the grass will be turned into gardens and the
mower will go away. i can trim some areas with the hedge
trimmer or a string trimmer (with a cutting blade) as needed.

alfalfa is a good crop for green manure (free N fertilizer).


songbird

We got a truck load of spoiled alfalfa many years ago for free and
another truck load of spoiled plain grass hay. Big storm east of us and
caught some truckers without cover. Friend of mine who was dealing with
them had them come over to our old place with 10 acres and the unloaded
on us. Stacked the bales around the big garden up to about eight feet
tall and the tomatoes and peppers made fruit all winter. Gradually it
all rotted away, pulled out the strings and scattered over a place we
wanted to turn into a bean field. Had lots of beans and other veggies
for several years.

Haven't seen any hay truck but once since then. Don't think we had any
droughts for a long time either.

No rain today, maybe tomorrow. Gardens and other plants got so much
water this past week we're having to fertilize again.

George

Texas rains can be something to behold!

I can grow carp. Well except weeds. Maybe I can coax my purslane
to choke out the weeds. It hasn't come up yet this year.

On 4/20/2016 7:15 PM, T wrote:
On 04/19/2016 02:02 PM, George Shirley wrote:
On 4/19/2016 3:04 PM, T wrote:
On 04/17/2016 08:25 PM, songbird wrote:
T wrote:
songbird wrote:
if you
got time to go around dumping or spraying you got time
to pull it or smother it IMO.

Hi Songbird,

Some blabbing and a question on the bottom for you.

Since I let my back lawn go to seed last year in hope of replacing it
with a garden, I now have weeds I never knew existed.

weeds are free organic matter, if they will grow
where nothing else will they can then be chopped
and used for other things, like building mulch or
topsoil fertility.


On of them looks like a small shade tree and it pulls really easily.
The rest suck to the ground, like the dandelions that won't die.
I have to dig these up with a shovel, which is no easy task
considering you can make some really awesome bricks out of
my soil.

My soil isn't soil anyway. I know the guy who graded my property.
My back yard is 20 feet down from top soil. It is basically
rocks and decomposed sandstone (like decomposed granite,
only way, way uglier). If you strike the ground to hard with
a shovel, it literally sparks.

How some of these weeks managed to bore their roots down in the
stuff, I will never know. And, you can only cut their tops off.
Then they grow right back and back and back. So vinegar and
soap it is, less the salt. Cussing at them doesn't work either.

The back yard is too big to cover in cardboard or plastic,
especially with the high winds we have. (Two category one
hurricane force winds last January.) Rock gardens work
with visqueen.

rock gardens are just fine ways to cover an area.
we have plenty of those here ourselves.

also, if you do not need it for anything is there
any reason to do anything with it at all? we have
some land here on the other side of the large drainage
ditch. i'd like to put some fruit trees back there
but it's so far back there and hard to get to right
now that it's just growing small shrubs and trees
now. i'll need to cut it all back in the next few
years if i don't want it to turn into woodland/trees.


Also, this is one for you. My blue garlic comes out pink.
I was told that this is because my soil is very alkaline
(verified by the local nursery lady.) I little vinegar
may help. Your thoughts?

if you are just going to grow a few plants, i would
bring in some good topsoil add some composted cow manure
and any other organic materials i could scrounge up.

make sure the area is leveled and drainage is good
and also make sure there is a wind break to protect
against the drying winds.

that will solve the poor soil problem and your
pH will be corrected.

for the rest of the area as you can scrounge free
organic materials and chop and drop whatever weeds
that grow to get your topsoil developing environment
going. as most of the processes of forming topsoil
involve moisture it is better to have things piled
deep enough to preserve moisture than to scatter
your efforts widely. you might also be able to
scrounge free fill that is better than what you
have. even if you have to do it a few yards at a
time...

as you get an area covered and able to absorb and
store moisture then it will support worm and other
soil community creatures (you may need to innoculate
the area with soil from a healthy area). these build
topsoil and support plant life. your pH will change
as more organic matter is added.

it's just a matter of scale, what you want to put
into it, how much money you want to spend, and how
much you're willing to be patient while nature does
some work for you.


songbird


Thank you. I am wondering where to get some cow poop.
We have lots of cows about, but I haven't seen anyone
selling it.
We've had good luck in asking about getting the cow manure and shovel it
yourself into a trailer or pick-up. Worked for us for many years. There
is a compost called "Black Cow" available at Lowe's. Now that we
basically live on the outskirts of Houston, TX that's where we get our
manure. Works well.

I got in late last night. I put my headset on and cut
a four foot wide swath through the weeds. When I am done
picking them and they dry out a bit, I am planning on
digging them into holes that I will eventually
plant zukes in.
The smaller you cut the weeds the faster they rot. I usually run over
them with the mower two or three times and it gets smaller each time

Here is an interesting observation. I think the weeds
were always there in my lawn. When the grass dies,
the weeds stayed.
Weeds are much hardier than grass. We are pestered with dandelions and
nut grass, takes patience and finger strength to get the !@#$% things
out of the ground. Wife enjoys it so I let her take the lead on weed
pulling. She lived further out in the country than I did before we
married. G

Thank you!

No pickup truck and no lawn mover.

Just out of curiosity, how deep do you have to go to
keep the little buzzards seeds/root from coming back up?
Nut grass actually has a nut at the bottom, that has to come out or
another weed grows. Dandelions is a shot at getting it all, we usually
stick a finger into the ground and feel for roots then push it out.
Every weed has some sort of problem with wanting to live and procreate.
Get rough with them.

I am planning on planting two more Ponderosa Pines to kep
my other one company. Their needles will eventually acidify
the soil and provide some ground cover.


I grew up in the piney woods of SE Texas, takes many moons to actually
acidify soil that way. It is a cheap way though if you're patient.

Not raining at the moment, more tomorrow is what the weather folk are
saying. Lots of folks in Houston proper and the other cities and towns
on the drainage plain are under several feet of water for the second
year. So far we're just getting lots of water on the gardens and they
are doing well. Sun came out this afternoon and everything growing
perked up. I took a lot of "rain" limbs off the pear tree. Blasted thing
grow faster the more water they get.

George

On 4/20/2016 7:17 PM, T wrote:
On 04/19/2016 06:12 PM, George Shirley wrote:
On 4/19/2016 7:59 PM, songbird wrote:
George Shirley wrote:
...
Weeds are much hardier than grass. We are pestered with dandelions and
nut grass, takes patience and finger strength to get the !@#$% things
out of the ground. Wife enjoys it so I let her take the lead on weed
pulling. She lived further out in the country than I did before we
married. G

hahaha...

we have areas where we've never weeded. the rabbits seem
to selectively eat the weeds and leave most of the grass
alone. we just mow it once in a while with a mulching mower
so there is no raking involved.
We haven't seen any rabbits yet. Wouldn't mind seeing one in the
evening, break out the air rifle with the suppressor and the scope, runs
at about 1250 fps and should take out a rabbit for dinner.

A flock of white Muscovy ducks landed on the retention pond this
afternoon. They're not native so they're free game. Unfortunately there
were people walking around the pond. Dang!

there is a few areas that are crab grass invaded but those
are all patches that exist because Ma sprays herbicides and
it leaves bare soil that the crab grass will get going in
too easily. i try to keep them weeded if i can, but i can't
always keep up so it's just what it is. if i stay longer
term all the grass will be turned into gardens and the
mower will go away. i can trim some areas with the hedge
trimmer or a string trimmer (with a cutting blade) as needed.

alfalfa is a good crop for green manure (free N fertilizer).


songbird

We got a truck load of spoiled alfalfa many years ago for free and
another truck load of spoiled plain grass hay. Big storm east of us and
caught some truckers without cover. Friend of mine who was dealing with
them had them come over to our old place with 10 acres and the unloaded
on us. Stacked the bales around the big garden up to about eight feet
tall and the tomatoes and peppers made fruit all winter. Gradually it
all rotted away, pulled out the strings and scattered over a place we
wanted to turn into a bean field. Had lots of beans and other veggies
for several years.

Haven't seen any hay truck but once since then. Don't think we had any
droughts for a long time either.

No rain today, maybe tomorrow. Gardens and other plants got so much
water this past week we're having to fertilize again.

George

Texas rains can be something to behold!

I can grow carp. Well except weeds. Maybe I can coax my purslane
to choke out the weeds. It hasn't come up yet this year.
To be a decent gardener you have to understand your climate, the rain
patterns, what the soil is made of, and, even then, you can lose. Think
of it as something fun to do and you won't go completely bonkers.

T wrote:
....
The dandelions I recognize as I have been trying to kill them
for years. Vinegar might not kill them, but it sure screws them
something terrible, so it may only be an emotional thing for me.

i like dandelions, Ma just mows them down when they
start flowering and then about every three to four days,
not many make it to seed stage.


Cow poop it is! I will see what I can find in a bag. Hope
getting it home doesn't stick up my car.

it is composted already, doesn't stink like much of
anything that i recall, it's very low nutrient organic
material, that is why i use wood chips instead, can
get them much cheaper/free.

can you grow alfalfa anywhere on your property?
that's a good source of N to add to a heap for growing
zukes. or get a few bags of alfalfa pellets to mix
in your piles. for the money i think they're better
than composted cow poo.

we have another landscaper guy we talked to this
morning who will drop off wood chips when he's out
this way and has tree work as it saves him from having
to haul them somewhere else to dump. for the cost
of gas it will be a bargain.

i see you mention being able to grow ponderosa pines.
the needles from those would be good humus eventually
too. they do not acidify nearly as much as some people
think. humus itself is mildly acidic. just be happy
to scrounge any free organics you can and then let
nature do the rest. you'll get some good topsoil
eventually.

have i shown you this picture before?

http://www.anthive.com/flowers/100_6775_Wormies.jpg

the light colored soil is our native clay mixed
with some sand (if we can get it) and then the
dark is what happens when i take some of that native
soil and recondition it for a year in the worm
buckets.


songbird

T wrote:
....
I can grow carp. Well except weeds. Maybe I can coax my purslane
to choke out the weeds. It hasn't come up yet this year.

put a few carp in your zuke mounds! at the bottom. best
fertilizer ever.

purslane grows well here too. starts too late to be a
good ground cover (grows here as an annual). mixed with
other things it's ok. see if you can get some alfalfa
going.


songbird

George Shirley wrote:
....
To be a decent gardener you have to understand your climate, the rain
patterns, what the soil is made of, and, even then, you can lose. Think
of it as something fun to do and you won't go completely bonkers.

i agree, some crops you may not succeed with some years,
but it helps to pay attention and read what you can on
soils/plants/biology/botany/etc.

what i've noticed here is that planting diversity helps
keep me more interested too. that even if some patches
don't make it some others might.

i really don't mind weeds and untidyness in the gardens.
i'd much rather have something growing in a spot than having
bare dirt. to me weeds are free energy collectors and free
worm food. when i do need a space i dig a hole and bury the
weeds and then plant over them. by the time the seedlings
get their roots down very far the worst of the fermentation
has happened and the worms are in there doing their thing.

only a few select weeds survive this kind of treatment and
their roots need to be dried out before they get buried (sow
thistle, thistles in general, dandelions, queen anne's lace,
chickory, potatoes).


songbird