I guess I just never understood why you should have to "come to the
meetings,volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for the
Easter Egg Hunt in the park," just to live in peace on your own property
without someone else telling you how they think you should live.

I subscribe to the live and let live theory of life. I find homeowners
associations to be antithetical to the fundamentals of freedom in America.
It took me two years to find a property that did not have some ridiculous
CC&R's that I had to live by because of some control freaks who thought
their way of life was the only valid one. Most people ruled by these
organizations are not aware of the loss of their civil rights until after
they have purchased the property and then it is too late. They are
victims, no doubt.

Unless you want to spend all of your free time in hostile meetings with
people who are often irrational, emotion driven, and have a hidden agenda,
then I suggest you take your time to find a property without any homeowners
association organization. They only benefit the few at the expense of
many. Not a good way to live life in my opinion. I long for the days when
neighbors worked out their own problems with rational adult discussions and
tolerance.

From: Frogleg
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.gardens.edible
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 12:56:39 GMT
Subject: garden police gone wild?

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 08:47:39 -0700, "Darwin Vander Stelt"
wrote:

....but you won't be able to repaint it red...

And they can then get you with one of those "run-down" laws. :/

"they" are ordinarily volunteer committees of your neighbors. Land use
ordinances almost always benefit some and anger others, but the key to
having the neighborhood you want is to participate. The squeaky wheels get
to decide what the neighborhood looks like. You get the impression from
reading some posts that some political gestapo imposes these ordinances from
the top, and we little people are getting screwed. The truth is that land
use planning and zoning is typically a very transparent process with lots of
hearings etc. and only a few people care enough or have the time or ambition
to participate. And all citizens must realize that the system is not
necessarily corrupt just because their position does not prevail. The
climate of "my adgenda at any price" including a willingness to lie to
advance the adgenda pervades our civic life and it may eventually ruin us.

Applause, applause. I have been working with (doing a web site for) a
local neighborhood association. The membership is heavily weighted
with participation by Los Ricos with waterfront property, and they
*do* get their agenda acted upon. However,...a quarterly newsletter is
distributed to 1,600 households just in advance of general meetings.
At the last meeting, the attendance was 32 people, and about 150
families are voting members ($10/yr membership fee). The rest sit home
and complain about changes the association has promoted or brought
about. The quarterly general meetings and monthly board meetings are
open to participation by anyone. Los Ricos definitely have their own
interests in mind, but they *are* the ones who come to the meetings,
volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for
the Easter Egg Hunt in the park. I did my share of complaining
before I got involved. But Darwin is right. It does absolutely no good
to take a 'victim' position when there are opportunities to change
things through participation.

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 08:47:39 -0700, "Darwin Vander Stelt"
wrote:

....but you won't be able to repaint it red...

And they can then get you with one of those "run-down" laws. :/

"they" are ordinarily volunteer committees of your neighbors. Land use
ordinances almost always benefit some and anger others, but the key to
having the neighborhood you want is to participate. The squeaky wheels get
to decide what the neighborhood looks like. You get the impression from
reading some posts that some political gestapo imposes these ordinances from
the top, and we little people are getting screwed. The truth is that land
use planning and zoning is typically a very transparent process with lots of
hearings etc. and only a few people care enough or have the time or ambition
to participate. And all citizens must realize that the system is not
necessarily corrupt just because their position does not prevail. The
climate of "my adgenda at any price" including a willingness to lie to
advance the adgenda pervades our civic life and it may eventually ruin us.

Applause, applause. I have been working with (doing a web site for) a
local neighborhood association. The membership is heavily weighted
with participation by Los Ricos with waterfront property, and they
*do* get their agenda acted upon. However,...a quarterly newsletter is
distributed to 1,600 households just in advance of general meetings.
At the last meeting, the attendance was 32 people, and about 150
families are voting members ($10/yr membership fee). The rest sit home
and complain about changes the association has promoted or brought
about. The quarterly general meetings and monthly board meetings are
open to participation by anyone. Los Ricos definitely have their own
interests in mind, but they *are* the ones who come to the meetings,
volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for
the Easter Egg Hunt in the park. I did my share of complaining
before I got involved. But Darwin is right. It does absolutely no good
to take a 'victim' position when there are opportunities to change
things through participation.

I guess I just never understood why you should have to "come to the
meetings,volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for the
Easter Egg Hunt in the park," just to live in peace on your own property
without someone else telling you how they think you should live.

I subscribe to the live and let live theory of life. I find homeowners
associations to be antithetical to the fundamentals of freedom in America.
It took me two years to find a property that did not have some ridiculous
CC&R's that I had to live by because of some control freaks who thought
their way of life was the only valid one. Most people ruled by these
organizations are not aware of the loss of their civil rights until after
they have purchased the property and then it is too late. They are
victims, no doubt.

Unless you want to spend all of your free time in hostile meetings with
people who are often irrational, emotion driven, and have a hidden agenda,
then I suggest you take your time to find a property without any homeowners
association organization. They only benefit the few at the expense of
many. Not a good way to live life in my opinion. I long for the days when
neighbors worked out their own problems with rational adult discussions and
tolerance.

From: Frogleg
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.gardens.edible
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 12:56:39 GMT
Subject: garden police gone wild?

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 08:47:39 -0700, "Darwin Vander Stelt"
wrote:

....but you won't be able to repaint it red...

And they can then get you with one of those "run-down" laws. :/

"they" are ordinarily volunteer committees of your neighbors. Land use
ordinances almost always benefit some and anger others, but the key to
having the neighborhood you want is to participate. The squeaky wheels get
to decide what the neighborhood looks like. You get the impression from
reading some posts that some political gestapo imposes these ordinances from
the top, and we little people are getting screwed. The truth is that land
use planning and zoning is typically a very transparent process with lots of
hearings etc. and only a few people care enough or have the time or ambition
to participate. And all citizens must realize that the system is not
necessarily corrupt just because their position does not prevail. The
climate of "my adgenda at any price" including a willingness to lie to
advance the adgenda pervades our civic life and it may eventually ruin us.

Applause, applause. I have been working with (doing a web site for) a
local neighborhood association. The membership is heavily weighted
with participation by Los Ricos with waterfront property, and they
*do* get their agenda acted upon. However,...a quarterly newsletter is
distributed to 1,600 households just in advance of general meetings.
At the last meeting, the attendance was 32 people, and about 150
families are voting members ($10/yr membership fee). The rest sit home
and complain about changes the association has promoted or brought
about. The quarterly general meetings and monthly board meetings are
open to participation by anyone. Los Ricos definitely have their own
interests in mind, but they *are* the ones who come to the meetings,
volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for
the Easter Egg Hunt in the park. I did my share of complaining
before I got involved. But Darwin is right. It does absolutely no good
to take a 'victim' position when there are opportunities to change
things through participation.

writes:

Applause, applause. I have been working with (doing a web site for) a
local neighborhood association. The membership is heavily weighted
with participation by Los Ricos with waterfront property, and they
*do* get their agenda acted upon. However,...a quarterly newsletter is
distributed to 1,600 households just in advance of general meetings.
At the last meeting, the attendance was 32 people, and about 150
families are voting members ($10/yr membership fee). The rest sit home
and complain about changes the association has promoted or brought
about. The quarterly general meetings and monthly board meetings are
open to participation by anyone. Los Ricos definitely have their own
interests in mind, but they *are* the ones who come to the meetings,
volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for
the Easter Egg Hunt in the park. I did my share of complaining
before I got involved. But Darwin is right. It does absolutely no good
to take a 'victim' position when there are opportunities to change
things through participation.

This has shown to be true here as well. In fact, we had so little
participation (and with *no* dues) that one meeting in which we proposed
changing the bylaws to include a quorum to be 3 elected board members and
5 general members (meaning non-elected) where it had been 3 and 15; we had
great attendance *and* had the required attendance at that one meeting
only (in over four years!). There was a quorum and it was decided to go
to 3 and 10 because a total of eight was "too few" making decisions. That
was in June. Well, until this past month, we didn't have a quorum and
couldn't vote on anything, including making some donations to charity!
The entire idea of the 8 was because 6-8 was a good attendance at most
meetings, even as few as a total of 4! While we had a quorum, we voted on
the many issues that had been set aside for up to 8 months, and *then*
changed the bylaws to reflect the 8 for a quorum as had originally been
suggested. You see, literally *none* of those who voted for 13 attended
another meeting in that eight months!

Our city recently passed a minimum property maintenance standard ordinance
which grouped all related laws and ordinances in one area for easier
understanding and enforcement. Of course, there were several that were
strengthened and some were added. Because I was at the initial meeting, I
was able to influence some of the new ones which were good for what they
were intended but what was in black and white was overly restrictive.
Example: no vegetation over 18" in height which excluded such things as
raspberries, tomato plants, etc. Solution: insertion of the word
"non-cultivated." Example: no wood stored on property without a current
building permit. Problem: many projects do not require building permits;
many folks have gardens using lumber as borders on raised beds, etc.
Solution: insert exception of agricultural and seasonal as long as
properly stored when not in use. Example: no holes on property.
Solution: define "hole" including size. The list goes on and on as you
can imagine. Clarification of terms, etc., made the finished product
livable and realistic for the average home owner. This entire process of
refining/defining and presenting it before various groups for input took
over 18 months. Our association had two (yes, two!) meetings specifically
about the ordinance, one dedicated to *only* that, asking for input and
then prepared a formal memo to the City incorporating all comments and
suggestions with even the memo read at the next meeting before
presentation to the City. Ordinance passed last fall and effective
December 31st. Yup, you can guess what has now happened at our last
meeting . . . a couple that had not been heard from before (and has lived
here for many years) was at the meeting complaining about not being able
to just throw gravel on a corner of their yard and park their trailer
there. Interestingly enough, they hadn't been able to do that since 1965
anyway, but didn't bother to find out what they needed to do. They would
have known, however, if they had read the newsletter or attended any of
the meetings. This is doubly frustrating to me as I faithfully attended
all meetings related to this as a neighborhood representative, made myself
initially unpopular by challenging the vagueness of some things and the
unreasonableness of others to City officials, regularly reported back to
our meetings as well as including key points in our newsletters (I was
editor for four years, now taking a break), and made myself available by
telephone for all input as well as in person.

This ordinance was highly publicized in the local newspaper, was addressed
on several news programs, was presented at many public meetings, was
available via web and in-person presentation by the department involved,
etc., for that entire year and a half. Yet, many people weren't
interested until it affected them. I must admit my attitude for those in
our own neighborhood who all received at least six newsletters asking for
them comments, aren't getting a lot of sympathy from me as my first
thought is, "Where were you during the year and a half of preparing the
ordinance?" This wasn't something done behind closed doors or "sneaked
past" the citizens; it was remarkably public as well as those involved
being receptive to suggestions. No, we didn't all get what we wanted,
either way, but we do have something we can feel we helped to make more
reasonable and livable. And, yes, I may get "nailed" on it with some of
my non-commercial tomato cages, tomato and potato tubs/planters, and bean
tee-pees if someone wants to be highly literal though I have been assured
it will not happen since that's "not who we are going after." (LOL, famous
last words!)

Yup. The "don't care" attitude seems to be widespread *until* it affects
you (generic "you" not specifically "you"). My attitude is: Don't vote,
don't bitch. Only if you vote have you've given yourself the right to
complain. Of course, for our neighborhood, that is even more true since
everyone over 18 who either lives here or owns property here, is a member
and has a vote with a limitation of one vote per business. So, you can
see, there is no reason why everyone didn't have their voice heard.

Basically, I was involved because I wanted the City to keep their nose out
of *my* garden! Though I would have been involved anyway, I was much more
aware of how certain wording could be abused for those who garden. A
complaint-driven system stinks, even more so when the caller doesn't need
to identify self or even live in the city/state! We actually have one
person in our neighborhood who gets up on a ladder to look in the
neighbor's yard to see if there is *anything* they can turn in a complaint
about. There are some pretty petty people in this world (pretty mean very
not beautiful).

Time to rototill, haul manure, and buy some super tomato plants!

Glenna

....but you won't be able to repaint it red...

And they can then get you with one of those "run-down" laws. :/

"they" are ordinarily volunteer committees of your neighbors. Land use
ordinances almost always benefit some and anger others, but the key to
having the neighborhood you want is to participate. The squeaky wheels get
to decide what the neighborhood looks like. You get the impression from
reading some posts that some political gestapo imposes these ordinances from
the top, and we little people are getting screwed. The truth is that land
use planning and zoning is typically a very transparent process with lots of
hearings etc. and only a few people care enough or have the time or ambition
to participate. And all citizens must realize that the system is not
necessarily corrupt just because their position does not prevail. The
climate of "my adgenda at any price" including a willingness to lie to
advance the adgenda pervades our civic life and it may eventually ruin us.

writes:
I guess I just never understood why you should have to "come to the
meetings,volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for the
Easter Egg Hunt in the park," just to live in peace on your own property
without someone else telling you how they think you should live.

I subscribe to the live and let live theory of life. I find homeowners
associations to be antithetical to the fundamentals of freedom in America.
It took me two years to find a property that did not have some ridiculous
CC&R's that I had to live by because of some control freaks who thought
their way of life was the only valid one. Most people ruled by these
organizations are not aware of the loss of their civil rights until after
they have purchased the property and then it is too late. They are
victims, no doubt.

Unless you want to spend all of your free time in hostile meetings with
people who are often irrational, emotion driven, and have a hidden agenda,
then I suggest you take your time to find a property without any
homeowners
association organization. They only benefit the few at the expense of
many. Not a good way to live life in my opinion. I long for the days
when
neighbors worked out their own problems with rational adult discussions
and
tolerance.

The issue of home owners associations is quite different than
city/county/state/federal ordinances and laws. The overly restrictive
home owners association "rules" would not exist if home owners did not
allow them to be; it is only those directly involved that vote *and* they
know that when they buy. I suspect that they can be changed if the
majority want them to be.

Government laws and ordinances are another matter. They are passed to
cover everyone and need to be monitored by *real* residents and not just a
select few. If only those who live on the waterfront attend the meetings
regarding laws governing the waterfronts, then the rest of us will be
denied access to what should be, in most instances, public. In our own
community the "money" in the West Hills of Portland had a great deal of
influence over flight paths into PDX, undue influence, but others kept
silent and now all others are having a difficult time getting things
changed to the good of the greater population because the regulations are
already in effect. While this is not my "first love" for involvement, I
completely understand how the non-involvement of people allowed it to
happen and a greater portion of the population affected by it. Those of
us on the north side of the river receive absolutely no revenue from the
airport but are bearing the larger burden of the noise and pollution
because those in north Portland just didn't care enough to speak out
though they are adversely affected also. Worse now, a new law has been
passed requiring all in our county to disclose, when selling, if our
property is in the flight path which, of course, negatively affects resale
value . . . but does not, of course, allow a lower property tax rate!

Ironically, previous owners of my house moved into a neighborhood,
complete with CC&Rs which they didn't bother to evaluate and cannot hang
out laundry, among other things. I mention this one because it really
matters to her, she loved to have sun-dried sheets. My middle son had to
remove the dog house from his kennel, inside his fenced back yard (6-ft
board) because it was "unsightly." Now, "unsightly" is a rather vague
term for a regulation. He complained to me, and I told him he is the one
who chose to live there. When they mentioned the CC&Rs, I told them to
review them thoroughly and really tear them apart, but they never believed
anyone would complain about a dog house for a guide dog for the brief time
she was outside! Well, surprise, folks, some people will take the
vagueness and twist it to suit their agenda, even it it's only to distress
someone else. It is for that reason that we must be involved, to try to
keep things realistic for everyone not just allow the agenda of a very few.

Glenna
off her soapbox for the day now
better day for planting, sunshine, drier soil, etc.

"Glenna Rose" wrote in message
news:fc.003d094101c0eb513b9aca009cbb789b.1c0ec79@p mug.org...
writes:

Applause, applause. I have been working with (doing a web site for) a
local neighborhood association. The membership is heavily weighted
with participation by Los Ricos with waterfront property, and they
*do* get their agenda acted upon. However,...a quarterly newsletter is
distributed to 1,600 households just in advance of general meetings.
At the last meeting, the attendance was 32 people, and about 150
families are voting members ($10/yr membership fee). The rest sit home
and complain about changes the association has promoted or brought
about. The quarterly general meetings and monthly board meetings are
open to participation by anyone. Los Ricos definitely have their own
interests in mind, but they *are* the ones who come to the meetings,
volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for
the Easter Egg Hunt in the park. I did my share of complaining
before I got involved. But Darwin is right. It does absolutely no good
to take a 'victim' position when there are opportunities to change
things through participation.

This has shown to be true here as well. In fact, we had so little
participation (and with *no* dues) that one meeting in which we proposed
changing the bylaws to include a quorum to be 3 elected board members and
5 general members (meaning non-elected) where it had been 3 and 15; we had
great attendance *and* had the required attendance at that one meeting
only (in over four years!). There was a quorum and it was decided to go
to 3 and 10 because a total of eight was "too few" making decisions. That
was in June. Well, until this past month, we didn't have a quorum and
couldn't vote on anything, including making some donations to charity!
The entire idea of the 8 was because 6-8 was a good attendance at most
meetings, even as few as a total of 4! While we had a quorum, we voted on
the many issues that had been set aside for up to 8 months, and *then*
changed the bylaws to reflect the 8 for a quorum as had originally been
suggested. You see, literally *none* of those who voted for 13 attended
another meeting in that eight months!

Our city recently passed a minimum property maintenance standard ordinance
which grouped all related laws and ordinances in one area for easier
understanding and enforcement. Of course, there were several that were
strengthened and some were added. Because I was at the initial meeting, I
was able to influence some of the new ones which were good for what they
were intended but what was in black and white was overly restrictive.
Example: no vegetation over 18" in height which excluded such things as
raspberries, tomato plants, etc. Solution: insertion of the word
"non-cultivated." Example: no wood stored on property without a current
building permit. Problem: many projects do not require building permits;
many folks have gardens using lumber as borders on raised beds, etc.
Solution: insert exception of agricultural and seasonal as long as
properly stored when not in use. Example: no holes on property.
Solution: define "hole" including size. The list goes on and on as you
can imagine. Clarification of terms, etc., made the finished product
livable and realistic for the average home owner. This entire process of
refining/defining and presenting it before various groups for input took
over 18 months. Our association had two (yes, two!) meetings specifically
about the ordinance, one dedicated to *only* that, asking for input and
then prepared a formal memo to the City incorporating all comments and
suggestions with even the memo read at the next meeting before
presentation to the City. Ordinance passed last fall and effective
December 31st. Yup, you can guess what has now happened at our last
meeting . . . a couple that had not been heard from before (and has lived
here for many years) was at the meeting complaining about not being able
to just throw gravel on a corner of their yard and park their trailer
there. Interestingly enough, they hadn't been able to do that since 1965
anyway, but didn't bother to find out what they needed to do. They would
have known, however, if they had read the newsletter or attended any of
the meetings. This is doubly frustrating to me as I faithfully attended
all meetings related to this as a neighborhood representative, made myself
initially unpopular by challenging the vagueness of some things and the
unreasonableness of others to City officials, regularly reported back to
our meetings as well as including key points in our newsletters (I was
editor for four years, now taking a break), and made myself available by
telephone for all input as well as in person.

This ordinance was highly publicized in the local newspaper, was addressed
on several news programs, was presented at many public meetings, was
available via web and in-person presentation by the department involved,
etc., for that entire year and a half. Yet, many people weren't
interested until it affected them. I must admit my attitude for those in
our own neighborhood who all received at least six newsletters asking for
them comments, aren't getting a lot of sympathy from me as my first
thought is, "Where were you during the year and a half of preparing the
ordinance?" This wasn't something done behind closed doors or "sneaked
past" the citizens; it was remarkably public as well as those involved
being receptive to suggestions. No, we didn't all get what we wanted,
either way, but we do have something we can feel we helped to make more
reasonable and livable. And, yes, I may get "nailed" on it with some of
my non-commercial tomato cages, tomato and potato tubs/planters, and bean
tee-pees if someone wants to be highly literal though I have been assured
it will not happen since that's "not who we are going after." (LOL, famous
last words!)

Yup. The "don't care" attitude seems to be widespread *until* it affects
you (generic "you" not specifically "you"). My attitude is: Don't vote,
don't bitch. Only if you vote have you've given yourself the right to
complain. Of course, for our neighborhood, that is even more true since
everyone over 18 who either lives here or owns property here, is a member
and has a vote with a limitation of one vote per business. So, you can
see, there is no reason why everyone didn't have their voice heard.

Have you bothered to ask people why they don't participate? I bet you
could learn a lot by their answers.

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 08:47:39 -0700, "Darwin Vander Stelt"
wrote:

....but you won't be able to repaint it red...

And they can then get you with one of those "run-down" laws. :/

"they" are ordinarily volunteer committees of your neighbors. Land use
ordinances almost always benefit some and anger others, but the key to
having the neighborhood you want is to participate. The squeaky wheels
get
to decide what the neighborhood looks like. You get the impression from
reading some posts that some political gestapo imposes these ordinances
from
the top, and we little people are getting screwed. The truth is that land
use planning and zoning is typically a very transparent process with lots
of
hearings etc. and only a few people care enough or have the time or
ambition
to participate. And all citizens must realize that the system is not
necessarily corrupt just because their position does not prevail. The
climate of "my adgenda at any price" including a willingness to lie to
advance the adgenda pervades our civic life and it may eventually ruin
us.

Applause, applause. I have been working with (doing a web site for) a
local neighborhood association. The membership is heavily weighted
with participation by Los Ricos with waterfront property, and they
*do* get their agenda acted upon. However,...a quarterly newsletter is
distributed to 1,600 households just in advance of general meetings.
At the last meeting, the attendance was 32 people, and about 150
families are voting members ($10/yr membership fee). The rest sit home
and complain about changes the association has promoted or brought
about. The quarterly general meetings and monthly board meetings are
open to participation by anyone. Los Ricos definitely have their own
interests in mind, but they *are* the ones who come to the meetings,
volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for
the Easter Egg Hunt in the park. I did my share of complaining
before I got involved. But Darwin is right. It does absolutely no good
to take a 'victim' position when there are opportunities to change
things through participation.

So basically you are saying you do all these things to get your voice heard.
Why is it set-up that way anyway? No wonder people don't feel like voting.
Maybe they have lives and don't feel like having to join a fraternity and
getting initiated.

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 08:47:39 -0700, "Darwin Vander Stelt"
wrote:

....but you won't be able to repaint it red...

And they can then get you with one of those "run-down" laws. :/

"they" are ordinarily volunteer committees of your neighbors. Land use
ordinances almost always benefit some and anger others, but the key to
having the neighborhood you want is to participate. The squeaky wheels get
to decide what the neighborhood looks like. You get the impression from
reading some posts that some political gestapo imposes these ordinances from
the top, and we little people are getting screwed. The truth is that land
use planning and zoning is typically a very transparent process with lots of
hearings etc. and only a few people care enough or have the time or ambition
to participate. And all citizens must realize that the system is not
necessarily corrupt just because their position does not prevail. The
climate of "my adgenda at any price" including a willingness to lie to
advance the adgenda pervades our civic life and it may eventually ruin us.

Applause, applause. I have been working with (doing a web site for) a
local neighborhood association. The membership is heavily weighted
with participation by Los Ricos with waterfront property, and they
*do* get their agenda acted upon. However,...a quarterly newsletter is
distributed to 1,600 households just in advance of general meetings.
At the last meeting, the attendance was 32 people, and about 150
families are voting members ($10/yr membership fee). The rest sit home
and complain about changes the association has promoted or brought
about. The quarterly general meetings and monthly board meetings are
open to participation by anyone. Los Ricos definitely have their own
interests in mind, but they *are* the ones who come to the meetings,
volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for
the Easter Egg Hunt in the park. I did my share of complaining
before I got involved. But Darwin is right. It does absolutely no good
to take a 'victim' position when there are opportunities to change
things through participation.

I guess I just never understood why you should have to "come to the
meetings,volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for the
Easter Egg Hunt in the park," just to live in peace on your own property
without someone else telling you how they think you should live.

I subscribe to the live and let live theory of life. I find homeowners
associations to be antithetical to the fundamentals of freedom in America.
It took me two years to find a property that did not have some ridiculous
CC&R's that I had to live by because of some control freaks who thought
their way of life was the only valid one. Most people ruled by these
organizations are not aware of the loss of their civil rights until after
they have purchased the property and then it is too late. They are
victims, no doubt.

Unless you want to spend all of your free time in hostile meetings with
people who are often irrational, emotion driven, and have a hidden agenda,
then I suggest you take your time to find a property without any homeowners
association organization. They only benefit the few at the expense of
many. Not a good way to live life in my opinion. I long for the days when
neighbors worked out their own problems with rational adult discussions and
tolerance.

From: Frogleg
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net
Newsgroups: rec.gardens.edible
Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2004 12:56:39 GMT
Subject: garden police gone wild?

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 08:47:39 -0700, "Darwin Vander Stelt"
wrote:

....but you won't be able to repaint it red...

And they can then get you with one of those "run-down" laws. :/

"they" are ordinarily volunteer committees of your neighbors. Land use
ordinances almost always benefit some and anger others, but the key to
having the neighborhood you want is to participate. The squeaky wheels get
to decide what the neighborhood looks like. You get the impression from
reading some posts that some political gestapo imposes these ordinances from
the top, and we little people are getting screwed. The truth is that land
use planning and zoning is typically a very transparent process with lots of
hearings etc. and only a few people care enough or have the time or ambition
to participate. And all citizens must realize that the system is not
necessarily corrupt just because their position does not prevail. The
climate of "my adgenda at any price" including a willingness to lie to
advance the adgenda pervades our civic life and it may eventually ruin us.

Applause, applause. I have been working with (doing a web site for) a
local neighborhood association. The membership is heavily weighted
with participation by Los Ricos with waterfront property, and they
*do* get their agenda acted upon. However,...a quarterly newsletter is
distributed to 1,600 households just in advance of general meetings.
At the last meeting, the attendance was 32 people, and about 150
families are voting members ($10/yr membership fee). The rest sit home
and complain about changes the association has promoted or brought
about. The quarterly general meetings and monthly board meetings are
open to participation by anyone. Los Ricos definitely have their own
interests in mind, but they *are* the ones who come to the meetings,
volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for
the Easter Egg Hunt in the park. I did my share of complaining
before I got involved. But Darwin is right. It does absolutely no good
to take a 'victim' position when there are opportunities to change
things through participation.

writes:

Applause, applause. I have been working with (doing a web site for) a
local neighborhood association. The membership is heavily weighted
with participation by Los Ricos with waterfront property, and they
*do* get their agenda acted upon. However,...a quarterly newsletter is
distributed to 1,600 households just in advance of general meetings.
At the last meeting, the attendance was 32 people, and about 150
families are voting members ($10/yr membership fee). The rest sit home
and complain about changes the association has promoted or brought
about. The quarterly general meetings and monthly board meetings are
open to participation by anyone. Los Ricos definitely have their own
interests in mind, but they *are* the ones who come to the meetings,
volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for
the Easter Egg Hunt in the park. I did my share of complaining
before I got involved. But Darwin is right. It does absolutely no good
to take a 'victim' position when there are opportunities to change
things through participation.

This has shown to be true here as well. In fact, we had so little
participation (and with *no* dues) that one meeting in which we proposed
changing the bylaws to include a quorum to be 3 elected board members and
5 general members (meaning non-elected) where it had been 3 and 15; we had
great attendance *and* had the required attendance at that one meeting
only (in over four years!). There was a quorum and it was decided to go
to 3 and 10 because a total of eight was "too few" making decisions. That
was in June. Well, until this past month, we didn't have a quorum and
couldn't vote on anything, including making some donations to charity!
The entire idea of the 8 was because 6-8 was a good attendance at most
meetings, even as few as a total of 4! While we had a quorum, we voted on
the many issues that had been set aside for up to 8 months, and *then*
changed the bylaws to reflect the 8 for a quorum as had originally been
suggested. You see, literally *none* of those who voted for 13 attended
another meeting in that eight months!

Our city recently passed a minimum property maintenance standard ordinance
which grouped all related laws and ordinances in one area for easier
understanding and enforcement. Of course, there were several that were
strengthened and some were added. Because I was at the initial meeting, I
was able to influence some of the new ones which were good for what they
were intended but what was in black and white was overly restrictive.
Example: no vegetation over 18" in height which excluded such things as
raspberries, tomato plants, etc. Solution: insertion of the word
"non-cultivated." Example: no wood stored on property without a current
building permit. Problem: many projects do not require building permits;
many folks have gardens using lumber as borders on raised beds, etc.
Solution: insert exception of agricultural and seasonal as long as
properly stored when not in use. Example: no holes on property.
Solution: define "hole" including size. The list goes on and on as you
can imagine. Clarification of terms, etc., made the finished product
livable and realistic for the average home owner. This entire process of
refining/defining and presenting it before various groups for input took
over 18 months. Our association had two (yes, two!) meetings specifically
about the ordinance, one dedicated to *only* that, asking for input and
then prepared a formal memo to the City incorporating all comments and
suggestions with even the memo read at the next meeting before
presentation to the City. Ordinance passed last fall and effective
December 31st. Yup, you can guess what has now happened at our last
meeting . . . a couple that had not been heard from before (and has lived
here for many years) was at the meeting complaining about not being able
to just throw gravel on a corner of their yard and park their trailer
there. Interestingly enough, they hadn't been able to do that since 1965
anyway, but didn't bother to find out what they needed to do. They would
have known, however, if they had read the newsletter or attended any of
the meetings. This is doubly frustrating to me as I faithfully attended
all meetings related to this as a neighborhood representative, made myself
initially unpopular by challenging the vagueness of some things and the
unreasonableness of others to City officials, regularly reported back to
our meetings as well as including key points in our newsletters (I was
editor for four years, now taking a break), and made myself available by
telephone for all input as well as in person.

This ordinance was highly publicized in the local newspaper, was addressed
on several news programs, was presented at many public meetings, was
available via web and in-person presentation by the department involved,
etc., for that entire year and a half. Yet, many people weren't
interested until it affected them. I must admit my attitude for those in
our own neighborhood who all received at least six newsletters asking for
them comments, aren't getting a lot of sympathy from me as my first
thought is, "Where were you during the year and a half of preparing the
ordinance?" This wasn't something done behind closed doors or "sneaked
past" the citizens; it was remarkably public as well as those involved
being receptive to suggestions. No, we didn't all get what we wanted,
either way, but we do have something we can feel we helped to make more
reasonable and livable. And, yes, I may get "nailed" on it with some of
my non-commercial tomato cages, tomato and potato tubs/planters, and bean
tee-pees if someone wants to be highly literal though I have been assured
it will not happen since that's "not who we are going after." (LOL, famous
last words!)

Yup. The "don't care" attitude seems to be widespread *until* it affects
you (generic "you" not specifically "you"). My attitude is: Don't vote,
don't bitch. Only if you vote have you've given yourself the right to
complain. Of course, for our neighborhood, that is even more true since
everyone over 18 who either lives here or owns property here, is a member
and has a vote with a limitation of one vote per business. So, you can
see, there is no reason why everyone didn't have their voice heard.

Basically, I was involved because I wanted the City to keep their nose out
of *my* garden! Though I would have been involved anyway, I was much more
aware of how certain wording could be abused for those who garden. A
complaint-driven system stinks, even more so when the caller doesn't need
to identify self or even live in the city/state! We actually have one
person in our neighborhood who gets up on a ladder to look in the
neighbor's yard to see if there is *anything* they can turn in a complaint
about. There are some pretty petty people in this world (pretty mean very
not beautiful).

Time to rototill, haul manure, and buy some super tomato plants!

Glenna

writes:
I guess I just never understood why you should have to "come to the
meetings,volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for the
Easter Egg Hunt in the park," just to live in peace on your own property
without someone else telling you how they think you should live.

I subscribe to the live and let live theory of life. I find homeowners
associations to be antithetical to the fundamentals of freedom in America.
It took me two years to find a property that did not have some ridiculous
CC&R's that I had to live by because of some control freaks who thought
their way of life was the only valid one. Most people ruled by these
organizations are not aware of the loss of their civil rights until after
they have purchased the property and then it is too late. They are
victims, no doubt.

Unless you want to spend all of your free time in hostile meetings with
people who are often irrational, emotion driven, and have a hidden agenda,
then I suggest you take your time to find a property without any
homeowners
association organization. They only benefit the few at the expense of
many. Not a good way to live life in my opinion. I long for the days
when
neighbors worked out their own problems with rational adult discussions
and
tolerance.

The issue of home owners associations is quite different than
city/county/state/federal ordinances and laws. The overly restrictive
home owners association "rules" would not exist if home owners did not
allow them to be; it is only those directly involved that vote *and* they
know that when they buy. I suspect that they can be changed if the
majority want them to be.

Government laws and ordinances are another matter. They are passed to
cover everyone and need to be monitored by *real* residents and not just a
select few. If only those who live on the waterfront attend the meetings
regarding laws governing the waterfronts, then the rest of us will be
denied access to what should be, in most instances, public. In our own
community the "money" in the West Hills of Portland had a great deal of
influence over flight paths into PDX, undue influence, but others kept
silent and now all others are having a difficult time getting things
changed to the good of the greater population because the regulations are
already in effect. While this is not my "first love" for involvement, I
completely understand how the non-involvement of people allowed it to
happen and a greater portion of the population affected by it. Those of
us on the north side of the river receive absolutely no revenue from the
airport but are bearing the larger burden of the noise and pollution
because those in north Portland just didn't care enough to speak out
though they are adversely affected also. Worse now, a new law has been
passed requiring all in our county to disclose, when selling, if our
property is in the flight path which, of course, negatively affects resale
value . . . but does not, of course, allow a lower property tax rate!

Ironically, previous owners of my house moved into a neighborhood,
complete with CC&Rs which they didn't bother to evaluate and cannot hang
out laundry, among other things. I mention this one because it really
matters to her, she loved to have sun-dried sheets. My middle son had to
remove the dog house from his kennel, inside his fenced back yard (6-ft
board) because it was "unsightly." Now, "unsightly" is a rather vague
term for a regulation. He complained to me, and I told him he is the one
who chose to live there. When they mentioned the CC&Rs, I told them to
review them thoroughly and really tear them apart, but they never believed
anyone would complain about a dog house for a guide dog for the brief time
she was outside! Well, surprise, folks, some people will take the
vagueness and twist it to suit their agenda, even it it's only to distress
someone else. It is for that reason that we must be involved, to try to
keep things realistic for everyone not just allow the agenda of a very few.

Glenna
off her soapbox for the day now
better day for planting, sunshine, drier soil, etc.

On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 08:47:39 -0700, "Darwin Vander Stelt"
wrote:

....but you won't be able to repaint it red...

And they can then get you with one of those "run-down" laws. :/

"they" are ordinarily volunteer committees of your neighbors. Land use
ordinances almost always benefit some and anger others, but the key to
having the neighborhood you want is to participate. The squeaky wheels get
to decide what the neighborhood looks like. You get the impression from
reading some posts that some political gestapo imposes these ordinances from
the top, and we little people are getting screwed. The truth is that land
use planning and zoning is typically a very transparent process with lots of
hearings etc. and only a few people care enough or have the time or ambition
to participate. And all citizens must realize that the system is not
necessarily corrupt just because their position does not prevail. The
climate of "my adgenda at any price" including a willingness to lie to
advance the adgenda pervades our civic life and it may eventually ruin us.


There are many levels of garden and whatever they want to police
folks. There are county and city regulations that most folks are
totally unaware of, until some neighbor decides to complain about
something.

Here, Boise, Idaho, there are rules that state that no plants can be
planted where they act as screen anywhere other than at the perimeter
of the property, like a fence. And then only in the same manner as a
fence, otherwise. no taller than 3' if there aren't spaces between the
plants. 4' if there are spaces where people can see through.
Everywhere else, no higher than 1' above grade.

We also can't plant things within the easement that is the highway
district's. My area is easy to determine since there is a sidewalk,
There is a 5' area past the fence into my yard where we cannot plant
trees, or build anything permanent in that area, or put anything that
would be difficult to remove.

So that covers the planting of stuff.. you can plant individual plants
that do not form barriers .. so you can plant one tree that can grow
more than 1' above grade, but you can't plant several in a row as that
would constitute a screen.

Then there are the annoying little rules that are usually not actively
enforced in general areas, things like you can't have a trash can out
over 24 hours before or after pickup date. You're not supposed to
have your hose out if it's not in use, at all. Not supposed to have
any yard care items or trash cans where they can be seen in the front
or back yard. You're supposed to tote all of them back and put them
in a shed. You don't have a shed? Get one, but make sure it conforms
to the rules too.

Now, those are general city codes.. and there are more. However what
a lot of people seem to fail to find out or really understand at times
is that many subdivisions have their OWN covenants which can be and
usually ARE much stricter. They go so far as to tell you that you can
ONLY plant certain plants, and some of them want no variation. They
want all front yards to have the SAME plants and no others in them,
and if something should die, they'd want you to replace it with a
plant the same size as those in the yards around you. If you plant
something else, you'd be told to remove it, if you didn't then someone
else would remove it and you would be billed. You have to have ONLY
the prescribed mail boxes, yard decorations, plants, paint/rock colors
etc. Any variations and you will be chastised, told to fix it, if yo
don't it will be fixed and you will pay and if you don't then you will
be fined, or taken to court. You have to sign papers to this effect
to get in. If you forget what you signed they'll remind you. It's a
cookie cutter sub division and that conformity makes some people
happy, and secure an no one should buy into such a community if they
aren't of that mentality. Some people just don't read it or don't
take it seriously!

I really don't much like cookie cutter yards, and I annoy my neighbor
to the east because he's anal retentive and my yard makes his butt
pucker. ;-D I hope he loses sleep over it he's suck a jerk..not
merely *my* observation!

So, there are real "garden police" and there are those who merely
self-appoint! ;-)

Janice

"Glenna Rose" wrote in message
news:fc.003d094101c0eb513b9aca009cbb789b.1c0ec79@p mug.org...
writes:

Applause, applause. I have been working with (doing a web site for) a
local neighborhood association. The membership is heavily weighted
with participation by Los Ricos with waterfront property, and they
*do* get their agenda acted upon. However,...a quarterly newsletter is
distributed to 1,600 households just in advance of general meetings.
At the last meeting, the attendance was 32 people, and about 150
families are voting members ($10/yr membership fee). The rest sit home
and complain about changes the association has promoted or brought
about. The quarterly general meetings and monthly board meetings are
open to participation by anyone. Los Ricos definitely have their own
interests in mind, but they *are* the ones who come to the meetings,
volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for
the Easter Egg Hunt in the park. I did my share of complaining
before I got involved. But Darwin is right. It does absolutely no good
to take a 'victim' position when there are opportunities to change
things through participation.

This has shown to be true here as well. In fact, we had so little
participation (and with *no* dues) that one meeting in which we proposed
changing the bylaws to include a quorum to be 3 elected board members and
5 general members (meaning non-elected) where it had been 3 and 15; we had
great attendance *and* had the required attendance at that one meeting
only (in over four years!). There was a quorum and it was decided to go
to 3 and 10 because a total of eight was "too few" making decisions. That
was in June. Well, until this past month, we didn't have a quorum and
couldn't vote on anything, including making some donations to charity!
The entire idea of the 8 was because 6-8 was a good attendance at most
meetings, even as few as a total of 4! While we had a quorum, we voted on
the many issues that had been set aside for up to 8 months, and *then*
changed the bylaws to reflect the 8 for a quorum as had originally been
suggested. You see, literally *none* of those who voted for 13 attended
another meeting in that eight months!

Our city recently passed a minimum property maintenance standard ordinance
which grouped all related laws and ordinances in one area for easier
understanding and enforcement. Of course, there were several that were
strengthened and some were added. Because I was at the initial meeting, I
was able to influence some of the new ones which were good for what they
were intended but what was in black and white was overly restrictive.
Example: no vegetation over 18" in height which excluded such things as
raspberries, tomato plants, etc. Solution: insertion of the word
"non-cultivated." Example: no wood stored on property without a current
building permit. Problem: many projects do not require building permits;
many folks have gardens using lumber as borders on raised beds, etc.
Solution: insert exception of agricultural and seasonal as long as
properly stored when not in use. Example: no holes on property.
Solution: define "hole" including size. The list goes on and on as you
can imagine. Clarification of terms, etc., made the finished product
livable and realistic for the average home owner. This entire process of
refining/defining and presenting it before various groups for input took
over 18 months. Our association had two (yes, two!) meetings specifically
about the ordinance, one dedicated to *only* that, asking for input and
then prepared a formal memo to the City incorporating all comments and
suggestions with even the memo read at the next meeting before
presentation to the City. Ordinance passed last fall and effective
December 31st. Yup, you can guess what has now happened at our last
meeting . . . a couple that had not been heard from before (and has lived
here for many years) was at the meeting complaining about not being able
to just throw gravel on a corner of their yard and park their trailer
there. Interestingly enough, they hadn't been able to do that since 1965
anyway, but didn't bother to find out what they needed to do. They would
have known, however, if they had read the newsletter or attended any of
the meetings. This is doubly frustrating to me as I faithfully attended
all meetings related to this as a neighborhood representative, made myself
initially unpopular by challenging the vagueness of some things and the
unreasonableness of others to City officials, regularly reported back to
our meetings as well as including key points in our newsletters (I was
editor for four years, now taking a break), and made myself available by
telephone for all input as well as in person.

This ordinance was highly publicized in the local newspaper, was addressed
on several news programs, was presented at many public meetings, was
available via web and in-person presentation by the department involved,
etc., for that entire year and a half. Yet, many people weren't
interested until it affected them. I must admit my attitude for those in
our own neighborhood who all received at least six newsletters asking for
them comments, aren't getting a lot of sympathy from me as my first
thought is, "Where were you during the year and a half of preparing the
ordinance?" This wasn't something done behind closed doors or "sneaked
past" the citizens; it was remarkably public as well as those involved
being receptive to suggestions. No, we didn't all get what we wanted,
either way, but we do have something we can feel we helped to make more
reasonable and livable. And, yes, I may get "nailed" on it with some of
my non-commercial tomato cages, tomato and potato tubs/planters, and bean
tee-pees if someone wants to be highly literal though I have been assured
it will not happen since that's "not who we are going after." (LOL, famous
last words!)

Yup. The "don't care" attitude seems to be widespread *until* it affects
you (generic "you" not specifically "you"). My attitude is: Don't vote,
don't bitch. Only if you vote have you've given yourself the right to
complain. Of course, for our neighborhood, that is even more true since
everyone over 18 who either lives here or owns property here, is a member
and has a vote with a limitation of one vote per business. So, you can
see, there is no reason why everyone didn't have their voice heard.

Have you bothered to ask people why they don't participate? I bet you
could learn a lot by their answers.

"Frogleg" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 2 Apr 2004 08:47:39 -0700, "Darwin Vander Stelt"
wrote:

....but you won't be able to repaint it red...

And they can then get you with one of those "run-down" laws. :/

"they" are ordinarily volunteer committees of your neighbors. Land use
ordinances almost always benefit some and anger others, but the key to
having the neighborhood you want is to participate. The squeaky wheels
get
to decide what the neighborhood looks like. You get the impression from
reading some posts that some political gestapo imposes these ordinances
from
the top, and we little people are getting screwed. The truth is that land
use planning and zoning is typically a very transparent process with lots
of
hearings etc. and only a few people care enough or have the time or
ambition
to participate. And all citizens must realize that the system is not
necessarily corrupt just because their position does not prevail. The
climate of "my adgenda at any price" including a willingness to lie to
advance the adgenda pervades our civic life and it may eventually ruin
us.

Applause, applause. I have been working with (doing a web site for) a
local neighborhood association. The membership is heavily weighted
with participation by Los Ricos with waterfront property, and they
*do* get their agenda acted upon. However,...a quarterly newsletter is
distributed to 1,600 households just in advance of general meetings.
At the last meeting, the attendance was 32 people, and about 150
families are voting members ($10/yr membership fee). The rest sit home
and complain about changes the association has promoted or brought
about. The quarterly general meetings and monthly board meetings are
open to participation by anyone. Los Ricos definitely have their own
interests in mind, but they *are* the ones who come to the meetings,
volunteer to be on the board, do the paperwork for grants and
activities, and hide the eggs and dress up in the bunny costume for
the Easter Egg Hunt in the park. I did my share of complaining
before I got involved. But Darwin is right. It does absolutely no good
to take a 'victim' position when there are opportunities to change
things through participation.

So basically you are saying you do all these things to get your voice heard.
Why is it set-up that way anyway? No wonder people don't feel like voting.
Maybe they have lives and don't feel like having to join a fraternity and
getting initiated.