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Old 04-08-2003, 04:32 AM
Noydb
 
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John DeBoo wrote:


I'll probably go the 'pallet' route as I can get several for free by
asking at Lowes or Home Depot, any of the lumber type stores.
Sometimes they are not the best but they'll work. I've gotten them
in the past for use under my firewood pile.


I work in Westland, MI. I can get you all you want just for the picking up.

It grinds my guts but we have been throwing away 5/4 oak pallets the past
couple of weeks. That is, the runners and bottom boards are 1 1/4 inch
thick solid oak and the top is 5/8 exterior plywood. Makes me sick just
thinking about it. A couple weeks ago my car caught fire and I have to ride
my bike for now. By the time I get wheels under me again, likely the oak
will be gone. :-(

Bill
--
Zone 5b (Detroit, MI)
I do not post my address to news groups.

  #48   Report Post  
Old 04-08-2003, 04:42 AM
Noydb
 
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Andrew McMichael wrote:

But I've heard that one should stick to vegetable
material. Is this so? Why?


Andrew


No. Although there may be social reasons for doing so, it just isn't true
from the standpoint of biology IF you are running a well-managed hot
process compost pile. If you are running a cold process compost pile you
might (might) have a problem with vermin and pets.

http://www.weblife.org/humanure/default.html

Bill
--
Zone 5b (Detroit, MI)
I do not post my address to news groups.

  #49   Report Post  
Old 04-08-2003, 04:42 AM
Lynda
 
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TomC wrote:

A local dairy farmer sells compost and manure. Guess where his dead cows
go!


onto the dinner table?
  #50   Report Post  
Old 04-08-2003, 05:03 AM
Mike Stevenson
 
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Fishes have faces...ask any 5 year old. I think that vegans BTW don't eat
ANY animal or animal based product. No milk, no cheese, no gelatin (if you
don't know you don't want to). I've also heard of so called micro-biotics
that wont eat the above but also retrict themselves to seaweeds and the
like. Unfortunately due to man's dumping activities its argueable whether
seafood is really all that safe to eat anymore. And recently a number of
articles detailing how most of the big fish populations are all but wiped
out. It doesn't look promising...

"Jan Flora" wrote in message
...
In article , Pat Meadows
wrote:

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:09:15 -0800, (Jan
Flora) wrote:



One of the ranchers in our cattlemans association is married to a
vegetarian. It's NBD. When we have to go to convention banquets,
he gets her prime rib and she gets his king crab legs : )


She's not a vegetarian then, she's someone who doesn't eat
meat, but does eat fish.

Vegetarian, by definition, means someone who doesn't eat red
meat, doesn't eat poultry, and doesn't eat seafood - in
short, a vegetarian doesn't eat any dead animals.

What's 'NBD'? I can't figure that out.

Pat


The veggies I've talked to say that there are lots of kinds. Vegans
won't eat eggs, they drink soy milk, and don't eat any flesh. Around
here, there are lots of folks who won't eat "anything with a face."
They'll eat seafood though. I say eat whatever you want and be happy.

NBD = no big deal.

Jan





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Old 04-08-2003, 05:03 AM
Lynda
 
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Jan Flora wrote:

In article , tomj wrote:

On Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:51:35 -0800, (Jan Flora)
wrote:

Go surf around
www.eatwild.com

Growing beef on grass helps with carbon sequestration, among other things.

Jan
organic beef rancher



Thanks Jan, very interesting! We continue to buy organic beef when we
entertain and you've succeeded in convincing us to continue for our
unenlightened friends. :)

We'll have to agree to disagree personally, but I respect your
informed choice.

namaste,
tomj


One of the ranchers in our cattlemans association is married to a
vegetarian. It's NBD. When we have to go to convention banquets,
he gets her prime rib and she gets his king crab legs : )

In my home, we actually eat a lot more seafood than beef, because
my SO will cave in and sell "our" beef, when a neighbor needs one for
a wedding, for Easter or some other big occasion. We go fishing all
winter long out on the bay, to catch halibut & king salmon. And buy
crab & scallops on the dock. And go clamming. A lot of our "recreation"
is actually subsistence food gathering. (Neither one of us hunts moose,
caribou or black bear anymore. We'd rather look at the animals than
kill them. But it's tempting to shoot moose when they get in the garden
and eat all the cabbage & broccali a week before harvest. There's a
moose heifer hanging around here tonight, so I put a radio out in the
garden and tuned it to a station that plays a lot of Rush Limbaugh
all night. That should scare her off. *g*)


yummmy mooose

Jan

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Old 04-08-2003, 05:03 AM
Lynda
 
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Pat Meadows wrote:

snip
What's 'NBD'? I can't figure that out.


no big deal

Pat

  #53   Report Post  
Old 04-08-2003, 06:12 AM
Noydb
 
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FDR wrote:

I wouldn't put any animal type waste in a manure pile. There are disease
risks.


What then WOULD you put in a manure pile?

If you run a hot pile and give the finished compost a one year aging period
there are NO disease risks higher than background rates.

http://www.weblife.org/humanure/default.html

Not my site ... but I consider it authoritative on the subject.

Bill
--
Zone 5b (Detroit, MI)
I do not post my address to news groups.

  #54   Report Post  
Old 04-08-2003, 06:32 AM
Noydb
 
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Lynn Smythe wrote:

Oooooohhhhh, don't put any more oil, fat or meat trimmings into the
compost pile. It attracts animals (mice, rats, racoons etc...) and doesn't
break down.


That conflicts with my experience and research. Fats, meats and so on do so
break down and if you have a modestly hot pile (113-130 deg F) no animal is
going to be pawing through it.

The link below goes into considerably more detail on the matter.

http://www.weblife.org/humanure/default.html

Bill
--
Zone 5b (Detroit, MI)
I do not post my address to news groups.

  #55   Report Post  
Old 05-08-2003, 05:17 AM
 
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Eggs don't have faces, neither does milk. However seafood does. These
people need to make up their minds.
roz
az usa




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Old 05-08-2003, 05:17 AM
 
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Why do they use such good wood for a pallet? I always figured they were
throw-away wood. Now I know why they are so @)#(! heavy.
roz
az usa


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Old 05-08-2003, 05:17 AM
Pat Meadows
 
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On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:28:36 -0700,
wrote:

Eggs don't have faces, neither does milk. However seafood does. These
people need to make up their minds.


It's simple - the generally accepted definitions go like
this:

vegetarian - eats no dead animals (this is the simplest way
to express it), many eat both eggs and milk, some eat one
but not the other [1].

vegan - eats no dead animals and no animal products either
(no eggs, no dairy foods, usually no honey) Many vegans also
do not use leather, or other similar animal-based products.
[2].

It's somewhat irritating to vegetarians when those who eat
seafood or chicken (for instance) call themselves
'vegetarians' because this creates confusion.

You go to a restaurant and ask the waiter if a certain
entree is 'vegetarian'. He says it is, because the last
person who discussed it with him claimed to be a vegetarian
but wasn't disturbed by the chicken stock used in the
recipe...so you think it's OK for you (a vegetarian) and you
order it

[1] From Merriam Webster online (for the definition of a
vegetarian they say 'one who practices vegetarianism'):

Main Entry: veg·e·tar·i·an·ism
Pronunciation: -E-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
Date: circa 1851
: the theory or practice of living on a diet made up of
vegetables , fruits, grains, nuts, and sometimes eggs or
dairy products

[2] From Merriam-Webster online:

Main Entry: veg·an
Pronunciation: 'vE-g&n also 'vA- also 've-j&n or -"jan
Function: noun
Etymology: by contraction from vegetarian
Date: 1944
: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy
products; also : one who abstains from using animal products
(as leather)


Pat (not a vegetarian at the moment, but have been one in
the past and likely will be again in the future)
  #58   Report Post  
Old 05-08-2003, 05:17 AM
Aaron Baugher
 
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Pat Meadows writes:

[1] From Merriam Webster online (for the definition of a
vegetarian they say 'one who practices vegetarianism'):


: the theory or practice of living on a diet made up of
vegetables , fruits, grains, nuts, and sometimes eggs or
dairy products


This definition is at least consistent: no food which required an
animal to die. Eggs sold for eating are normally unfertilized, so
they were never alive. Of course, chickens and cows on large farms
don't live very long and are sent to slaughter as soon as their
productivity drops, but that's not as direct.

I knew a woman who only ate chicken and fish because she saw a TV show
once about the conditions that certain milk-fed veal are raised in.
Never mind that most carnivores go their whole lives without ever
eating veal -- I can't remember the last time I saw it at my grocer's,
and I couldn't afford it if I did -- she swore off all eating of hairy
animals. Good thing she didn't see a show about how chickens are
usually raised; their conditions are much nastier than that of most
cattle or hogs.

I eat as much meat as possible myself, but almost all of it comes from
my parents' farm, and is butchered either by us or a local small
butcher. Some of the stuff I've seen about the way livestock are
raised on large corporate farms, and then treated in large
slaughterhouses, would nearly make me swear off meat if I had to buy
it all from who-knows-where.

Main Entry: veg·an


: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy
products; also : one who abstains from using animal products
(as leather)


This one's consistent too, but I'd think it'd be awfully expensive to
get a balanced diet with enough protein.


--
Aaron


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Old 05-08-2003, 05:17 AM
Aaron Baugher
 
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writes:

Why do they use such good wood for a pallet? I always figured they
were throw-away wood. Now I know why they are so @)#(! heavy.


Around here most pallets are made from junk trees, like cottonwood.
If someone's making pallets out of oak, they must be using the scraps
that weren't good enough for anything else, or logs that were too
crooked to make a long enough board. A good oak log is worth way too
much as quality lumber to be using it for pallets.


--
Aaron


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Old 05-08-2003, 05:17 AM
Jan Flora
 
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In article , tomj wrote:

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:09:15 -0800, (Jan Flora)
wrote:

I put a radio out in the
garden and tuned it to a station that plays a lot of Rush Limbaugh
all night. That should scare her off. *g*)

What a great sense of humor! I rolled off the office chair on that
one!


Heh. It didn't work! The moose came through, stepped on my peas and
kept going. At least she didn't stop to graze. I'm putting a fishnet fence
up today. (She's down on the lake right now, eating the water lilies...)

I'm curious about some comments I read by John Robbins and also posted
this morning.... Grass fed sounds wonderful, but I have more
questions....how do we know how the animals were butchered?


If you know the rancher, you'll know how/where the animals were butchered.
If you buy an animal from us, you pick out the one you want, live.

We butcher on our ranch, never more than two animals in a day. (It's a *lot*
of work!) The SO drives near the steer he wants, while the animal is grazing.
He stays in the pickup and shoots the animal in the forehead once with a
..300 Savage that's had the point of the bullet cut off. (Better blunt impact --
kills instantly. The animal dies with grass in it's mouth and never hears
the shot that kills it.) He discovered that if he stays in the pickup, the
animals
ignore him. If he gets out, they all come in for their (organic) barley, then
you've got a bunch of milling animals. If a stranger gets out of the truck,
the herd leaves. (They've learned that when strangers show up, someone
is going to die...) Most of our customers take everything but the hide and
the moo. Some even take the hooves, to make a gelatin-like soup. We have
lots of ethnic Russian neighbors. When customers don't want the tongue,
kidneys, liver or heart, we give those to elders in the neighborhood who
enjoy them.

We wait until there's snow on the ground, to have a clean place to work out
on the meadow. The weather is also cool enough then to hang the carcass
in our meat house for a couple of days, before it goes down to the local
butcher. (It's easier to split a carcass after it's hung for awhile.) The
butcher
hangs the sides in his cooler at a certain temp (?) for up to 10 days, then
breaks the carcass down into whatever cuts the customer has specified.
(One of the questions on the "cut sheet" is "how many teenagers are you
feeding?" because Tom will make the burger packages bigger, according
to the teenage count in a household. He also asks how much and what kind
of fat you want in the burger.)

PBS is going to run a show on friday here that was produced by
Hal Cannon. It's about cowboys. If I know Hal, he'll have stuff in there
about a cowboy's relationship to the land and to the animals. (And I do
know Hal. Met him at the Cowboy Poetry Gathering in Elko, NV a few
years ago.) Catch that show, if you can. It might explain a lot.

Jan
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