Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

Pat Meadows wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:07:27 -0500, Aaron Baugher
wrote:



Main Entry: veg·an

: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy
products; also : one who abstains from using animal products
(as leather)

This one's consistent too, but I'd think it'd be awfully expensive to
get a balanced diet with enough protein.


No, not at all. If anything it's cheap: but it does require
cooking - usually more time-consuming cooking than a hunk of
meat.

This is the wonderful thing about meat: it's a cinch to
cook. This is why I'm not a vegetarian at the moment,
mostly.

Pat


I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

Bob

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

zxcvbob wrote:

I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians
get their vitamin B12.

Bob


Most get it from all the insects in their food. I doubt most vegetarians
realize how much insect material is allowed in common foods like peanut
butter and bread. And then there are all the poor insects that these
savage vegetarians devour alive in their organic produce.

The few that manage to avoid sufficient animal protein in the form of
insects get their B-12 by injection after being hospitalized for
pernicious anemia.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

“A people living under the perpetual menace of war and invasion is very
easy to govern. It demands no social reforms. It does not haggle over
expenditures on armaments and military equipment. It pays without
discussion, it ruins itself, and that is an excellent thing for the
syndicates of financiers and manufacturers for whom patriotic terrors
are an abundant source of gain.”
Anatole France

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:44:19 -0500, zxcvbob wrote in
rec.gardens.edible:

I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

What foods provide vitamin B12?

Vitamin B12 is naturally found in animal foods including fish, milk and milk
products, eggs, meat, and poultry. Fortified breakfast cereals are an excellent
source of vitamin B12 and a particularly valuable source for vegetarians.
--
Gardening Zones
Canada Zone 5a
United States Zone 3a
Near Ottawa, Ontario

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:44:19 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:

I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

Bob


http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:44:19 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:




I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.


B-12 supplements are one source.

I think tempeh and a few other non-animal foods have B12,
but I'm not sure.

Pat

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 02:34:04 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
wrote:

The few that manage to avoid sufficient animal protein in the form of
insects get their B-12 by injection after being hospitalized for
pernicious anemia.


I would think that many vegans know enough about nutrition
to take B12 supplements and avoid the problem.

The ones I've known certainly did this.

Pat

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 01:17:00 -0400, Jim Carter
wrote:

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:44:19 -0500, zxcvbob wrote in
rec.gardens.edible:

I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

What foods provide vitamin B12?


See: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm#reliable

-------------------------------------------------------
Reliable Vegan Sources of Vitamin B12

A number of reliable vegan food sources for vitamin B12 are
known. One brand of nutritional yeast, Red Star T-6635+, has
been tested and shown to contain active vitamin B12.

snip

The RDA (which includes a safety factor) for adults for
vitamin B12 is 2.4 micrograms daily [4]. 2.4 micrograms of
vitamin B12 are provided by a little less than 1 Tablespoon
of Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+) nutritional
yeast. A number of the recipes in this book contain
nutritional yeast.

Another source of vitamin B12 is fortified cereal. We
recommend checking the label of your favorite cereal since
manufacturers have been known to stop including vitamin B12.

Other sources of vitamin B12 are vitamin B12-fortified soy
milk, vitamin B12-fortified meat analogues (food made from
wheat gluten or soybeans to resemble meat, poultry or fish),
and vitamin B12 supplements. There are vitamin supplements
which do not contain animal products.

Vegans who choose to use a vitamin B12 supplement, either as
a single supplement or in a multi-vitamin should use
supplements at least several times a week. Even though a
supplement may contain many times the recom-mended level of
vitamin B12, when vitamin B12 intake is high, not as much
appears to be absorbed. This means in order to meet your
needs, you should take the vitamin several times a week.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Pat

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

zxcvbob wrote in message ...
Pat Meadows wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:07:27 -0500, Aaron Baugher
wrote:



Main Entry: veg·an

: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy
products; also : one who abstains from using animal products
(as leather)

This one's consistent too, but I'd think it'd be awfully expensive to
get a balanced diet with enough protein.


No, not at all. If anything it's cheap: but it does require
cooking - usually more time-consuming cooking than a hunk of
meat.

This is the wonderful thing about meat: it's a cinch to
cook. This is why I'm not a vegetarian at the moment,
mostly.

Pat


I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

Bob

Long story. Where do cows get their B12? Bacteria (including those in
our guts) produce very large quantities of B12 compared to our needs
(excrement of most animals has large concentrations of B12). However,
B12 can be absorbed only at the top of the intestine. Things that
people intake (including alcohol and coffee) make the top of the
intestine unfriendly to such bacteria. One hypothesis is that a clean
life allow those bacteria to live higher in the intestine, where B12
can be absorbed.

Also, dirt from your garden is a significant source of B12 (think
manure and/or compost, and B12 is a very long-lived molecule). There
is a study on a iranian vegan community where B-12 deficiency was not
observed. Possible explanations included the fact that they used
"night soil" in their gardens (they composted and reused their own
waste). For the coffee-swilling vegan, there are always vitamin pills.
Or brewer's yeast.

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

In article ,
(simy1) wrote:

zxcvbob wrote in message
...
Pat Meadows wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:07:27 -0500, Aaron Baugher
wrote:



Main Entry: veg·an

: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy
products; also : one who abstains from using animal products
(as leather)

This one's consistent too, but I'd think it'd be awfully expensive to
get a balanced diet with enough protein.


No, not at all. If anything it's cheap: but it does require
cooking - usually more time-consuming cooking than a hunk of
meat.

This is the wonderful thing about meat: it's a cinch to
cook. This is why I'm not a vegetarian at the moment,
mostly.

Pat


I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

Bob

Long story. Where do cows get their B12? Bacteria (including those in
our guts) produce very large quantities of B12 compared to our needs
(excrement of most animals has large concentrations of B12). However,
B12 can be absorbed only at the top of the intestine. Things that
people intake (including alcohol and coffee) make the top of the
intestine unfriendly to such bacteria. One hypothesis is that a clean
life allow those bacteria to live higher in the intestine, where B12
can be absorbed.

Also, dirt from your garden is a significant source of B12 (think
manure and/or compost, and B12 is a very long-lived molecule). There
is a study on a iranian vegan community where B-12 deficiency was not
observed. Possible explanations included the fact that they used
"night soil" in their gardens (they composted and reused their own
waste). For the coffee-swilling vegan, there are always vitamin pills.
Or brewer's yeast.

Ruminants manufacture the B-complex vitamins in their digestive systems.
(I'd have to look at my notes from an animal nutrition class to tell you
exactly which chamber of the stomach makes it.) If it's a bacterial
synthesis, they'd make it in their rumens -- the first chamber.

Don't know about mono-gastrics (people, pigs, horses). I'd have to look
it up.

Jan

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

Plus the information given states that B-12 is a long lived substance that
stays in the body for a very long time. Anyone who became vegan as a teen or
young adult need not worry about this issue til thier late 50s. And that is
assuming they consume no additional sources of B-12 from the point they
become vegan on. The only ones have may have some reason for concern are
those who become vegans from birth, which would have to be a decision
brought on them by thier parents, who likely know enough to supply a varied
diet...

"Pat Meadows" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 06 Aug 2003 02:34:04 GMT, "Lorenzo L. Love"
wrote:

The few that manage to avoid sufficient animal protein in the form of
insects get their B-12 by injection after being hospitalized for
pernicious anemia.


I would think that many vegans know enough about nutrition
to take B12 supplements and avoid the problem.

The ones I've known certainly did this.

Pat

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

According to the http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm B-12 is made in the
large intestines of humans. It is also sopposedly unavailable to the body
there becuase the large intestine cannot absorb B-12 into the bloodstream
there. One would assume composting humanure would make this B-12 available
to a person...

"Jan Flora" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(simy1) wrote:

zxcvbob wrote in message
...
Pat Meadows wrote:

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:07:27 -0500, Aaron Baugher
wrote:



Main Entry: veg·an

: a strict vegetarian who consumes no animal food or dairy
products; also : one who abstains from using animal products
(as leather)

This one's consistent too, but I'd think it'd be awfully expensive
to
get a balanced diet with enough protein.


No, not at all. If anything it's cheap: but it does require
cooking - usually more time-consuming cooking than a hunk of
meat.

This is the wonderful thing about meat: it's a cinch to
cook. This is why I'm not a vegetarian at the moment,
mostly.

Pat


I havn't figured out where vegans and other strict orthodox
vegetarians get
their vitamin B12.

Bob

Long story. Where do cows get their B12? Bacteria (including those in
our guts) produce very large quantities of B12 compared to our needs
(excrement of most animals has large concentrations of B12). However,
B12 can be absorbed only at the top of the intestine. Things that
people intake (including alcohol and coffee) make the top of the
intestine unfriendly to such bacteria. One hypothesis is that a clean
life allow those bacteria to live higher in the intestine, where B12
can be absorbed.

Also, dirt from your garden is a significant source of B12 (think
manure and/or compost, and B12 is a very long-lived molecule). There
is a study on a iranian vegan community where B-12 deficiency was not
observed. Possible explanations included the fact that they used
"night soil" in their gardens (they composted and reused their own
waste). For the coffee-swilling vegan, there are always vitamin pills.
Or brewer's yeast.

Ruminants manufacture the B-complex vitamins in their digestive systems.
(I'd have to look at my notes from an animal nutrition class to tell you
exactly which chamber of the stomach makes it.) If it's a bacterial
synthesis, they'd make it in their rumens -- the first chamber.

Don't know about mono-gastrics (people, pigs, horses). I'd have to look
it up.

Jan

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

On 10 Aug 2003 13:34:26 -0700, (simy1) wrote:

(Jan Flora) wrote in message ...
waste). For the coffee-swilling vegan, there are always vitamin pills.
Or brewer's yeast.

Ruminants manufacture the B-complex vitamins in their digestive systems.
(I'd have to look at my notes from an animal nutrition class to tell you
exactly which chamber of the stomach makes it.) If it's a bacterial
synthesis, they'd make it in their rumens -- the first chamber.

Don't know about mono-gastrics (people, pigs, horses). I'd have to look
it up.

Jan

The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH). It is
possible that B12 in cows be produced in the intestine also. Either
way, all manures are known to have large amounts of B12.

I would be most interested in how you established the pH of "alcohol".
Any hints? What do you suppose those bacteria make of the pH in our
stomachs (anywhere from 1.0 - 4.0) Why would the very low pH of our
stomach contents fail to bother these bacteria while that of some
foods are presumed to do so after they have passed the stomach?

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

B.Server wrote in message . ..
On 10 Aug 2003 13:34:26 -0700, (simy1) wrote:

(Jan Flora) wrote in message ...
waste). For the coffee-swilling vegan, there are always vitamin pills.
Or brewer's yeast.

Ruminants manufacture the B-complex vitamins in their digestive systems.
(I'd have to look at my notes from an animal nutrition class to tell you
exactly which chamber of the stomach makes it.) If it's a bacterial
synthesis, they'd make it in their rumens -- the first chamber.

Don't know about mono-gastrics (people, pigs, horses). I'd have to look
it up.

Jan

The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH). It is
possible that B12 in cows be produced in the intestine also. Either
way, all manures are known to have large amounts of B12.

I would be most interested in how you established the pH of "alcohol".
Any hints? What do you suppose those bacteria make of the pH in our
stomachs (anywhere from 1.0 - 4.0) Why would the very low pH of our
stomach contents fail to bother these bacteria while that of some
foods are presumed to do so after they have passed the stomach?

I see what you are saying. The pH of wine is typically around 4.5.
Hard cider goes down to 3.8 or so, though I do not know the pH of beer
(probably substantially higher). I know very few people who drink pure
alcohol. Most Bacteria do not live in the stomach, as you suggest,
because it is too acid. I can only assume that coffee and alcohol
either go straight through (as most liquids do), or preserve some of
their acidity.

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

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Keywords:


In article ,
(simy1) writes:
| B.Server wrote in message . ..
| On 10 Aug 2003 13:34:26 -0700, (simy1) wrote:
|
| The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
| an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH). It is
| possible that B12 in cows be produced in the intestine also. Either
| way, all manures are known to have large amounts of B12.
|
| I would be most interested in how you established the pH of "alcohol".
| Any hints? What do you suppose those bacteria make of the pH in our
| stomachs (anywhere from 1.0 - 4.0) Why would the very low pH of our
| stomach contents fail to bother these bacteria while that of some
| foods are presumed to do so after they have passed the stomach?
|
| I see what you are saying. The pH of wine is typically around 4.5.
| Hard cider goes down to 3.8 or so, though I do not know the pH of beer
| (probably substantially higher). I know very few people who drink pure
| alcohol. Most Bacteria do not live in the stomach, as you suggest,
| because it is too acid. I can only assume that coffee and alcohol
| either go straight through (as most liquids do), or preserve some of
| their acidity.

Beer is rather higher, yes. You have missed most of the consequences
of what B. Server said.

pH is meaningful only for compounds that ionise; alcohol is not
one such, unless my memory is at fault. Coffee is not particularly
acid. And acid stomach contents tend to get neutralised as they pass
further down the gut, though I don't know the mechanisms, which is
why bacteria can live in our intestine at all.

I don't know who first invented the pseudo-science that you are
quoting, but I have seen it before, and it is complete nonsense.
So, I am pretty certain, is the theory that humans can thrive for
a few decades with no vitamin B-12 intake at all.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

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Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

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In article ,
(simy1) writes:
| (Nick Maclaren) wrote in message ...
|
| pH is meaningful only for compounds that ionise; alcohol is not
| one such, unless my memory is at fault. Coffee is not particularly
| acid. And acid stomach contents tend to get neutralised as they pass
| further down the gut, though I don't know the mechanisms, which is
| why bacteria can live in our intestine at all.
|
| I don't know who first invented the pseudo-science that you are
| quoting, but I have seen it before, and it is complete nonsense.
| So, I am pretty certain, is the theory that humans can thrive for
| a few decades with no vitamin B-12 intake at all.
|
| It is not pseudoscience - it is an hypothesis. The facts are
|
| 1) vegan groups where B12 deficiency is absent
| 2) B12 deficiency being a proven fact
| 3) animal (including human) waste containing very large amounts of B12
| 4) other animals apparently being able to manufacture their B12 and
| turning into B12 sources for us
|
| Feel free to incorporate all of these facts into any theory.

Such as the one that both coffee and alcohol have a low pH, in
the context of the digestive tract?

The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH).

But perhaps it was some other that posted that.

And, yes, it was the pseudo-science that coffee and alcohol have a
low pH and it is that aspect of them that disturbs our gut flora
that I was referring to. As I said, it goes back a long time
(decades) and was known to be nonsense when it was perpetrated.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

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In article ,
(simy1) writes:
|
| Such as the one that both coffee and alcohol have a low pH, in
| the context of the digestive tract?
|
| The bacteria in our gut who are responsible for B-12 do not appreciate
| an acid environment (both coffee and alcohol have low pH).
|
| I see what you are saying. Yes, the hypothesis that it is the acidity
| has not been proven. It could be anything. On that you are right. Or,
| if I nderstand it, you were objecting to my second post and not first.

Correct.

But it is so far from not having been proven that it is known to be
incorrect. It was even when I first saw it, some decades back.

Not merely does neither have a low pH (and alcohol doesn't really
have one, as such), most of the reasons for their effects on gut
flora are known, and it isn't their alkalinity or acidity.

Alcohol (specifically ethanol) has a direct effect on most
organisms and, at a sufficient level, is a very effective
bacteriostat. I can't remember if the same is true for caffeine,
but it is certainly true for tannins.

There is an indirect effect that, in some people, both alcohol
and caffeine stimulate the production of acid in the stomach,
but the same applies to many other foods.


Regards,
Nick Maclaren.

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:51:33 GMT, "Mike Stevenson"
wrote:

For one stomach acid rarely leaves the stomach. When it does its due to
disorders of the digestive tract such as acid reflux disease. Stomach acid
does not pass into the small and large intestines where these bacteria live.
As to the PH of alcohol HE did not establish it. Ph tests do, you can visit
a number of websites if you like and see the Phs for things such as grain
alchohol and wine and find that they tend to be very low, a good quality
Syrah has a Ph of 3.53 as published on the makers website. A good Merlot has
a similar pH of 3.52. Wines contain tannins, or Tartaric ACID. Coffee
contains tannins, as does tea. Alcohols made from grains (including beer)
contains some levels of tannin, and other acidic compounds.

Yes. So how it is that the GI tract is routinely capable of
neutralizing the very strong acid HCl before it enters the small
intestine but incapable of neutralizing the much weaker organic acids
in foods and beverages? Why is it that I should worry about coffee
and "alcohol" but not worry about the much more strongly acidic fresh
fruits, juices, and condiments? Lemonade anyone? Vinagrette?
Chipotles en escabeche'?

As another poster noted, my point is that alcohol (ethanol) DOES NOT
HAVE A pH. Consequently, neither I nor you nor the OP will find
"grain alcohol" to have a low pH.

The pH of wine is not a property of its alcohol content. The grapes
were acidic before picking or fermenting. Should one forgo grapes as
well? Tannins are not related to tartaric acid. Tannins are very
easily and strongly bound to proteins and as such are probably not
very available to dissociate. Unless they do, they too, will have no
pH. Once dissociated, they will seize almost any available protein
once again become unavailable. They are present in most fruit skins.
Must we peel our grapes?

As to the various claims regarding B-12 producing populations in the
human gut, I don't know but I doubt it. It has been too many years
since I studied anything related. (I do recall that the technology to
measure B12 has become more sophisticated and accurate )

What makes me skeptical is that when one confects a mixture of
improbable, unlikely, and plainly erroneous material as the
scaffolding on which to build a theory of nutrition, its difficult to
admire the soaring ediface while ignoring the rotten foundation, so to
speak. If I want to acquire B12 in my diet "naturally", it will be
most easily obtained from animal protein or milk products. If one
chooses a more limited diet, then "artificial, chemical, manufactured"
supplements will help the "natural, organic, whole" diet.

By the by, last night's Talisker on the rocks had a pH (measured on a
really cheap meter, not a lab instrument) of 8+. No doubt due to the
fact that our local water has a pH in the 7.9-8.5 vicinity, depending
on time of year. So, say 6 orders of magnitude less "acidic" than my
stomach.

Vegetarians ( Compost ingredients?
 

Hi, I would really like to get hold of some of this Vegetarian Support Formula (Red Star T-6635+), but I live in the UK and can only find it available in America. Does anyone know where I can get this in the UK (or a site that will send it to the UK without charging a forune)?

I'd be really grateful if anyone can help me :o)

Thanks very much,
Natalie.