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Old 24-09-2003, 09:42 PM
Phaedrine Stonebridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need Vertical Gardening Ideas (was: Stake or no stake tomato)

In article , EV wrote:

I don't understand the
uber-cage, unfortunately, but maybe my DH will when he sees it.


Sorry. I was hoping a picture would be worth a thousand words. :-)

Basically, the uber-cage consists of 8 ft. bamboo poles that I sink into
the ground as deep as I can, at about 2.5 ft. intervals. Then I 'weave' 6
ft poles horizontally through the uprights and tie seal them to the
uprights just above notches in the bamboo so they don't slip. You can see
the first horizontals in June Ediblbes section. I also add bamboo 3-4 ft.
lengths that go across the enclosure, again tie sealing above notches
wherever possible. These seperate the various plants in the uber-cage.
Then I add horitzontals as the plants grow, to keep them growing up. I
sometimes add sticks on a diagonal to keep major tomato branches seperate
and supported.


Also, just a little X-bracing can add a lot of stability, especially
against wind shear.

You can see the second row of horizontals up in the August
tomato bed shot. It looks flimsy, but it actually holds up really well. I
had no tomato damage during 70 mph gusts we had during the storms on the
weekend. The trees lost branches but, luckily, the cage held. The season
is about a month behind here in southern Ontario. Looks like I'll be
making alot of green tomato relish.



Ah ha! Thanks SO much for taking the time to describe it. It sounds
and looks just awesome. We are always looking for ways to do more
vertical gardening, though my husband is a bit weary of building new
garden structures. We have only been in this house a little over a year
so I keep telling him that the worst of it is already over. Our number
one problem is what to do with peas, cucumbers, pole-type beans, melons
and squash. In a previous fenced garden, we grew many of these up the
fence and netted the larger items.

But we cannot have permanent fencing here (way too much to fence and
some deed restrictions too), though we do have our berries espaliered on
heavy gauge wires on 6x6" posts. The beans have grown just so-so on 8
foot tall tripods wrapped with some horizontal jute twine. The problem
is that they get so bunched at the top and then start flopping all over
the place. We also grew cukes on tripods. The only ones that did
respectably well were the Divas. We had a huge yield of them before
they finally got some kind of a wilt (yet another problem).

About mid-season, I sent away to Pinetree for some netting--- sturdy
netting with holes large enough to put your hand thru in order to pick
stuff. But my husband, as clever and handy as he is, was unable to come
up with a way to use it. He tried wrapping the tripods with it but that
did not work at all. Personally, I think we need horizontals at a
height of at least 6 feet (for the beans anyway) from which to suspend
the netting but I have no idea how to reliably anchor the netting at the
bottom. We'd need something pretty demountable for storage purposes---
though bamboo does not rot, does it? If we made tall bamboo frames, I
suppose we could store them under the deck if neither the netting nor
the bamboo would rot. I am just dying to know how other people do this.
I have seen lots of posts that were really general but few that actually
say how to detail such trellises. If we could fashion a sturdy,
practical design, we could construct them over the winter--- IF we can
get bamboo somewhere. Where do you get yours BTW?

I was also thinking that with bamboo, lashing might work great and would
be highly demountable. It sounds like that is what you are doing with
your uber-cage. My husband thought my "lashing" idea was very amusing
for some reason. LOL But he is not familiar with lashing methods as I
have been. Being a former girl scout, we used to build darn near
everything by lashing--- lean-tos, Adirondack platforms, camp stools and
tables, you name it. Then again, I have never lashed anything as
slippery as bamboo either.

I am open to all suggestions.

Phae
  #2   Report Post  
Old 24-09-2003, 10:02 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need Vertical Gardening Ideas (was: Stake or no stake tomato)

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:39:00 -0500, Phaedrine Stonebridge
wrote:


About mid-season, I sent away to Pinetree for some netting--- sturdy
netting with holes large enough to put your hand thru in order to pick
stuff. But my husband, as clever and handy as he is, was unable to come
up with a way to use it. He tried wrapping the tripods with it but that
did not work at all. Personally, I think we need horizontals at a
height of at least 6 feet (for the beans anyway) from which to suspend
the netting but I have no idea how to reliably anchor the netting at the
bottom. We'd need something pretty demountable for storage purposes---
though bamboo does not rot, does it? If we made tall bamboo frames, I
suppose we could store them under the deck if neither the netting nor
the bamboo would rot. I am just dying to know how other people do this.


We were able to find 10' fence-poles - these are the metal
fence poles from which people hang welded-wire or woven-wire
fencing. They are very sturdy. They have a flange at the
bottom that goes into the ground and holds them upright.

We pounded these into the ground (we didn't actually do it
ourselves: we had a handyman do it, my husband cannot swing
a sledge hammer without causing himself lots of pain - the
handyman has a fencepost-pounding-tool too which is a big
help).

The fence posts are in a line. Then we ran a heavy wire
across the top of the fence posts. Then we fastened netting
(6" x 6" - from one of the garden suppliers, I forget which
one) to the wire with plastic cable-ties.

This is for beans, peas, cukes. So far it seems to work
pretty well.

We did it at the north end of the garden, to avoid shading
the rest of the garden.

Pat
--
To email me, remove the obvious word,
and type my first name in its place.

"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
  #3   Report Post  
Old 24-09-2003, 10:32 PM
Pam
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need Vertical Gardening Ideas (was: Stake or no stake tomato)

In our last fun filled episode, Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:39:00 -0500,
Phaedrine Stonebridge
proclaimed:

We'd need something pretty demountable for storage purposes---
though bamboo does not rot, does it? If we made tall bamboo frames,



PVC pipes.

I've made several trellises for flowering vines from PVC. It
lasts for years, and you could use joints to make it possible
to dismantle it for storage.



Pam
--
"Maybe you'd like to ask the Wizard for a heart."
"ElissaAnn"
  #4   Report Post  
Old 25-09-2003, 03:02 AM
Phaedrine Stonebridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need Vertical Gardening Ideas (was: Stake or no stake tomato)

In article ,
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 14:39:00 -0500, Phaedrine Stonebridge
wrote:


About mid-season, I sent away to Pinetree for some netting--- sturdy
netting with holes large enough to put your hand thru in order to pick
stuff. But my husband, as clever and handy as he is, was unable to come
up with a way to use it. He tried wrapping the tripods with it but that
did not work at all. Personally, I think we need horizontals at a
height of at least 6 feet (for the beans anyway) from which to suspend
the netting but I have no idea how to reliably anchor the netting at the
bottom. We'd need something pretty demountable for storage purposes---
though bamboo does not rot, does it? If we made tall bamboo frames, I
suppose we could store them under the deck if neither the netting nor
the bamboo would rot. I am just dying to know how other people do this.


We were able to find 10' fence-poles - these are the metal
fence poles from which people hang welded-wire or woven-wire
fencing. They are very sturdy. They have a flange at the
bottom that goes into the ground and holds them upright.

We pounded these into the ground (we didn't actually do it
ourselves: we had a handyman do it, my husband cannot swing
a sledge hammer without causing himself lots of pain - the
handyman has a fencepost-pounding-tool too which is a big
help).

The fence posts are in a line. Then we ran a heavy wire
across the top of the fence posts. Then we fastened netting
(6" x 6" - from one of the garden suppliers, I forget which
one) to the wire with plastic cable-ties.

This is for beans, peas, cukes. So far it seems to work
pretty well.

We did it at the north end of the garden, to avoid shading
the rest of the garden.



Thanks for the idea. This would only work for us in a place where we
could leave them in the ground over the winter and I am not sure we have
any place we can do that. But it sounds nice and sturdy. Is the
netting vertical or do you tent it? And if the former, do you just let
it hang or fasten it down some way?
  #5   Report Post  
Old 25-09-2003, 11:12 AM
EV
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need Vertical Gardening Ideas (was: Stake or no stake tomato)

Phaedrine Stonebridge wrote:

In article , EV wrote:

I don't understand the
uber-cage, unfortunately, but maybe my DH will when he sees it.


Sorry. I was hoping a picture would be worth a thousand words. :-)

Basically, the uber-cage consists of 8 ft. bamboo poles that I sink into
the ground as deep as I can, at about 2.5 ft. intervals. Then I 'weave' 6
ft poles horizontally through the uprights and tie seal them to the
uprights just above notches in the bamboo so they don't slip. You can see
the first horizontals in June Ediblbes section. I also add bamboo 3-4 ft.
lengths that go across the enclosure, again tie sealing above notches
wherever possible. These seperate the various plants in the uber-cage.
Then I add horitzontals as the plants grow, to keep them growing up. I
sometimes add sticks on a diagonal to keep major tomato branches seperate
and supported.


Also, just a little X-bracing can add a lot of stability, especially
against wind shear.


Exactly.

You can see the second row of horizontals up in the August
tomato bed shot. It looks flimsy, but it actually holds up really well. I
had no tomato damage during 70 mph gusts we had during the storms on the
weekend. The trees lost branches but, luckily, the cage held. The season
is about a month behind here in southern Ontario. Looks like I'll be
making alot of green tomato relish.


Ah ha! Thanks SO much for taking the time to describe it. It sounds
and looks just awesome. We are always looking for ways to do more
vertical gardening, though my husband is a bit weary of building new
garden structures.


The bamboo is soooo easy to work with you could do it yourself. I love
building the uber-cages. Very satsifying.

We have only been in this house a little over a year
so I keep telling him that the worst of it is already over. Our number
one problem is what to do with peas, cucumbers, pole-type beans, melons
and squash. In a previous fenced garden, we grew many of these up the
fence and netted the larger items.

But we cannot have permanent fencing here (way too much to fence and
some deed restrictions too), though we do have our berries espaliered on
heavy gauge wires on 6x6" posts. The beans have grown just so-so on 8
foot tall tripods wrapped with some horizontal jute twine. The problem
is that they get so bunched at the top and then start flopping all over
the place.


We also grew cukes on tripods. The only ones that did
respectably well were the Divas. We had a huge yield of them before
they finally got some kind of a wilt (yet another problem).


San Marzano tomatoes seem to like to wilt too .... luckily usually after it
doesn't matter anymore. One summer I tried to grow vegetable marrow that all
rotted. It's funny how certain things are precluded. I can grow pretty much
anything but clematis. I've gone through a handful of plants and none of them
lasted. Most everything else grows like gangbusters.

About mid-season, I sent away to Pinetree for some netting--- sturdy
netting with holes large enough to put your hand thru in order to pick
stuff. But my husband, as clever and handy as he is, was unable to come
up with a way to use it. He tried wrapping the tripods with it but that
did not work at all. Personally, I think we need horizontals at a
height of at least 6 feet (for the beans anyway) from which to suspend
the netting but I have no idea how to reliably anchor the netting at the
bottom.


I've anchored stuff like that with rocks or bricks. I've braced plants that
way too.

We'd need something pretty demountable for storage purposes---


I take my uber-cages down for the winter to preserve the bamboo. It's pretty
fast. Less time than it takes to put it up.

though bamboo does not rot, does it?


Yeah, it does eventually if you leave it in the ground.

If we made tall bamboo frames, I
suppose we could store them under the deck if neither the netting nor
the bamboo would rot.


That'd be fine for the bamboo, probably the netting too.

I am just dying to know how other people do this.
I have seen lots of posts that were really general but few that actually
say how to detail such trellises. If we could fashion a sturdy,
practical design, we could construct them over the winter--- IF we can
get bamboo somewhere. Where do you get yours BTW?


The garden centres around here all stock them, even the Home Depot's.

I was also thinking that with bamboo, lashing might work great and would
be highly demountable. It sounds like that is what you are doing with
your uber-cage.


Yup. I buy rolls of green tie seal stuff at the dollar store. I can get tight
above or beside the bamboo notches with just a twist. I cut them extra long,
so that I can keep adding on at the joins.

My husband thought my "lashing" idea was very amusing
for some reason. LOL But he is not familiar with lashing methods as I
have been. Being a former girl scout, we used to build darn near
everything by lashing--- lean-tos, Adirondack platforms, camp stools and
tables, you name it.


I hear ya! My husband leaves all the lashing to me.

Then again, I have never lashed anything as
slippery as bamboo either.


It's not so bad because when you get poles of the same thickness and length,
the notches usually line up fairly well.

I am open to all suggestions.

Phae


I think trial and error is half the fun. Good luck whatever you decide!

:-)

Ether





  #6   Report Post  
Old 25-09-2003, 12:22 PM
Pat Kiewicz
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need Vertical Gardening Ideas (was: Stake or no stake tomato)

Phaedrine Stonebridge said:

About mid-season, I sent away to Pinetree for some netting--- sturdy
netting with holes large enough to put your hand thru in order to pick
stuff. But my husband, as clever and handy as he is, was unable to come
up with a way to use it. He tried wrapping the tripods with it but that
did not work at all. Personally, I think we need horizontals at a
height of at least 6 feet (for the beans anyway) from which to suspend
the netting but I have no idea how to reliably anchor the netting at the
bottom. We'd need something pretty demountable for storage purposes---
though bamboo does not rot, does it? If we made tall bamboo frames, I
suppose we could store them under the deck if neither the netting nor
the bamboo would rot. I am just dying to know how other people do this.


If you are willing to invest some money, a frame can be made of threaded
pipe (the kind that is used for natural gas). You need two elbows, two 'tees' and
a coupler, plus two 6' uprights, one cross-bar the width that you want the frame
to be, two crossbars each about half that width, and two 'legs' about 2-1/2
feet long. All pieces must be threaded at both ends, except the 'leg' pieces which
are threaded on one end only. Also get some plastic piping which is big enough
in diameter to fit the pipe into. Cut that into 2-3/4 foot lengths.

The pieces are put together in rectangular panel using the elbows at the top
and the tees and coupler at the bottom. The 'legs' are then threaded into the
tees.

Put the plastic pipe into the ground at the proper spacing and drop into them.
The way I do this is to pound some closed-end pipe of about the same diameter
into the ground using an 8 pound sledge hammer.

This results in a very sturdy frame which can be taken down at the end of the
season. It won't rot, or blow over, or bend.

Lighter and more temporary frames can be made with electrical conduit and
fittings constructed in roughly the same form and dropped into pipe in the
ground. These are usually sturdy enough for peas but the thinner pipe can
be bent and the frames collapsed if you've got a thick growth of beans and
a strong storm blowing across them.

These frames can be wired with tomato-cage wire (permanently) or threaded
each year with jute twine, which allows you to cut down the vines and support
and compost the whole shebang.
--
Pat in Plymouth MI ('someplace.net' is 'comcast')

Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
(attributed to Don Marti)

  #7   Report Post  
Old 25-09-2003, 02:02 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need Vertical Gardening Ideas (was: Stake or no stake tomato)

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:57:38 -0500, Phaedrine Stonebridge
wrote:



Thanks for the idea. This would only work for us in a place where we
could leave them in the ground over the winter and I am not sure we have
any place we can do that.


Yes, it's (fairly) permanent.


But it sounds nice and sturdy. Is the
netting vertical or do you tent it?


Vertical.


And if the former, do you just let
it hang or fasten it down some way?


I fastened it to the ground with ground staples about 6'
apart (roughly - didn't measure) - I forgot to mention that
in my prior post.

I don't know that this is the *best* solution, but it's one
we could manage to do. So that's good.

I've grown cukes around the outside of a circle of
welded-wire fencing, about 5' high, in the past. This works
well for them - some few develop inside the circle and you
can't get to them, but it's only a few.

This is *not* permanent, so might be of interest to you.

I don't think it would be good for pole beans or peas,
because I think too many of them would develop inside the
circle and be inaccessible.

I've also grown pole beans on the traditional teepee but
you're right, they bunch up at the top and flop around!
Good description. But the teepee is easy to do and not
permanent, so it does have those virtues at least.

Pat
--
To email me, remove the obvious word,
and type my first name in its place.

"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
  #8   Report Post  
Old 26-09-2003, 11:43 PM
Phaedrine Stonebridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need Vertical Gardening Ideas (was: Stake or no stake tomato)

In article , EV wrote:

Phaedrine Stonebridge wrote:

In article , EV wrote:

snip for brevity

We have only been in this house a little over a year
so I keep telling him that the worst of it is already over. Our number
one problem is what to do with peas, cucumbers, pole-type beans, melons
and squash. In a previous fenced garden, we grew many of these up the
fence and netted the larger items.

But we cannot have permanent fencing here (way too much to fence and
some deed restrictions too), though we do have our berries espaliered on
heavy gauge wires on 6x6" posts. The beans have grown just so-so on 8
foot tall tripods wrapped with some horizontal jute twine. The problem
is that they get so bunched at the top and then start flopping all over
the place.


We also grew cukes on tripods. The only ones that did
respectably well were the Divas. We had a huge yield of them before
they finally got some kind of a wilt (yet another problem).


San Marzano tomatoes seem to like to wilt too .... luckily usually after it
doesn't matter anymore. One summer I tried to grow vegetable marrow that all
rotted. It's funny how certain things are precluded. I can grow pretty much
anything but clematis. I've gone through a handful of plants and none of them
lasted. Most everything else grows like gangbusters.



My San Marzanos were not good producers and did not like to ripen. No
doubt they do better in other climates. But I know what you mean about
certain plant types. I tried for years to grow heather and gaultheria
but they need such incredibly acid soil that I just did not succeed.
I'm sure you know clematises like shade at their feet. They can also be
rather fussy about location.

If we made tall bamboo frames, I
suppose we could store them under the deck if neither the netting nor
the bamboo would rot.


That'd be fine for the bamboo, probably the netting too.


Oh great; now I have a winter project (in all my spare time lol) if I
can just find some bamboo. I will let my fingers do the walking first.


Then again, I have never lashed anything as
slippery as bamboo either.


It's not so bad because when you get poles of the same thickness and length,
the notches usually line up fairly well.

I am open to all suggestions.

Phae


I think trial and error is half the fun. Good luck whatever you decide!

:-)

Ether


Thanks again
  #10   Report Post  
Old 27-09-2003, 12:02 AM
Phaedrine Stonebridge
 
Posts: n/a
Default Need Vertical Gardening Ideas (was: Stake or no stake tomato)

In article ,
(Pat Kiewicz) wrote:

Phaedrine Stonebridge said:

About mid-season, I sent away to Pinetree for some netting--- sturdy
netting with holes large enough to put your hand thru in order to
pick stuff. But my husband, as clever and handy as he is, was
unable to come up with a way to use it. He tried wrapping the
tripods with it but that did not work at all. Personally, I think
we need horizontals at a height of at least 6 feet (for the beans
anyway) from which to suspend the netting but I have no idea how to
reliably anchor the netting at the bottom. We'd need something
pretty demountable for storage purposes--- though bamboo does not
rot, does it? If we made tall bamboo frames, I suppose we could
store them under the deck if neither the netting nor the bamboo
would rot. I am just dying to know how other people do this.


If you are willing to invest some money, a frame can be made of
threaded pipe (the kind that is used for natural gas). You need two
elbows, two 'tees' and a coupler, plus two 6' uprights, one cross-bar
the width that you want the frame to be, two crossbars each about
half that width, and two 'legs' about 2-1/2 feet long. All pieces
must be threaded at both ends, except the 'leg' pieces which are
threaded on one end only. Also get some plastic piping which is big
enough in diameter to fit the pipe into. Cut that into 2-3/4 foot
lengths.

The pieces are put together in rectangular panel using the elbows at
the top and the tees and coupler at the bottom. The 'legs' are then
threaded into the tees.

Put the plastic pipe into the ground at the proper spacing and drop
into them. The way I do this is to pound some closed-end pipe of
about the same diameter into the ground using an 8 pound sledge
hammer.

This results in a very sturdy frame which can be taken down at the
end of the season. It won't rot, or blow over, or bend.

Lighter and more temporary frames can be made with electrical conduit
and fittings constructed in roughly the same form and dropped into
pipe in the ground. These are usually sturdy enough for peas but the
thinner pipe can be bent and the frames collapsed if you've got a
thick growth of beans and a strong storm blowing across them.

These frames can be wired with tomato-cage wire (permanently) or
threaded each year with jute twine, which allows you to cut down the
vines and support and compost the whole shebang.



Thanks so much for the detail! I'm gonna have my husband read this and
I bet he will have some questions later. I know he went looking for
pipe once but had a lot of trouble finding the right connectors.
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