Try ducks instead of chickens for eggs. They forage more on their own and
some breeds (Khaki Campbells) lay just as well as chickens. Geese are
excellent foragers, but they don't lay for very long.

I've found ducks to be more hardy, less likely to get sick, but messier.

Jena

"David Hare-Scott" wrote in message ...


Excellent idea. Without such you will be subject to seasonal
feast/famine even with good preserving techniques.

David

Since the original poster was posting from subtropical Australia, I
doubt it. One just has to have winter vegetables, and things like
grains and beans.

"Bob Peterson" wrote in message ...

personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous
water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area.


such a small area? In the US we produce easily 2 tons of wheat per
acre, which will cover the caloric needs of 7. Given that 90% of the
acreage is for feed,
we have much less than an acre per person to live on.

"Pam - gardengal" wrote in message news:jUIAb.453413$Tr4.1256311@attbi_s03...
[snip]
I'm not sure acreage is necessary. I have a friend who grows all the fruit
and produce she needs to support her family on a small urban lot. And she
has enough left over to share with a local foodbank.

Zucchini to the left of me.
Zucchini to the right of me.

Really, it depends on what your definition of "self-sufficient" is.

Did you grow that computer terminal? Did you raise enough food to
barter for that computer terminal? What about that hoe? Or that
shovel? Or that nail? Or that chicken wire? Well, if you understand
the answers to those questions, you probably were never here
in the first place.
Socks

there is someone in tasmania working along those lines as i understand
it he doesn't even have power, not sure now where i've seen his posts,
but maybe you could post this question in aus.gardens, or
http://www.au.gardenweb.com/forums/ozgard/.

we have near 70 acres here in queensland in aus', can't live without
power/phone etc.,. could grow enough veges on 2 to 5 acres need more
to grow enough fruit but we love our meat so could never grow enough
chooks/ducks/beef to keep the freezer full. then there are the things
like sugar, salt, tea/coffee, fuel, soap etc.,. so maybe partial self
sufficiency is attainable? could be a full time job just doing enough
to survive. and like you say then the affects of climate/weather kick
in.

where starting off simply trying to supplement, so far w don't buy
much in the vege line, but being in the sub-tropics can't imagine how
to grow enough potatoes, sweet potatoes yes but then not every body
likes them in the diet.

just my thoughts keep us informed on how you as you go along.

len

snipped
--
happy gardening
'it works for me it could work for you,'

"in the end ya' gotta do what ya' gotta do" but consider others and the environment
http://home.dnet.aunz.com/gardnlen/

Ian Stirling wrote in message ...
In misc.survivalism Down Under On The Bucket Farm wrote:
Hi Everybody,

I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to
buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater
catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc.

One issue is the question of how much physical space would be
needed to grow enough food to completely support myself?

The answer kind of depends if you'r in the middle of the Amazon, Antarctica,
or Austria.

As Ian points out we'd need to know generally where you want to
attempt this project. It's one thing to try it in the Southeast and
quite another to try it in the Intermountain West.

We'd also need to have a fair idea of what your choice of diet would
be. The typical American eats a fair amount of meat, consumes a good
deal of fat, and an even greater amount of sugar in his diet. All
three of these will impact heavily on how much land you'd need to
maintain your customary diet.

Should you happen to be a vegetarian who does not customarily eat a
lot of fats or sugar matters become much simpler.

No matter how you cut it true subsistence farming is a time consuming
occupation even with a high degree of mechanization. It can be done,
but if you're not already an avid gardener you'd best be ready for a
major lifestyle change.

Gene Logsdon has published a number of books concerning homesteading -
which is generally what you're talking about here - and they'll go a
long way to pointing out the particulars of your project. In
conjunction with spending some time with your local county
agricultural agent to gain familiarity with local conditions you'll be
a long ways towards understanding what it is you're wanting to do.

My advice is to start small. Plant a reasonable sized vegetable
garden to supply your fresh summer veggies. If you succeed with that
expand your operation to supply your winter veggies - fresh or
preserved. Then add in either small scale grain growing or small
scale livestock such as chickens or rabbits.

You manage all that and you'll have a very good idea of what you need
to do to flesh out the rest of the plan.

......Alan.

"...........In the US we produce easily 2 tons of wheat per
acre, which will cover the caloric needs of 7........."

You might do this on 100 acre fields where the birds are spoiled for choice,
but you try a small plot of grain and see just how much the birds have.

--
David Hill
Abacus nurseries
www.abacus-nurseries.co.uk
***2004 catalogue now available***

"simy1" wrote in message
om...
"Bob Peterson" wrote in message
...

personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous
water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area.


such a small area? In the US we produce easily 2 tons of wheat per
acre, which will cover the caloric needs of 7. Given that 90% of the
acreage is for feed,
we have much less than an acre per person to live on.

true, but this is using highly mechanized farming, specialty chemicals, and
hybrid seeds. what was being discussed was subsistence farming using all
manual labor. a radically different idea.

When it came canning time (it) was weeks of very hard hot work to
'put up'
hundreds of quarts or pints of fruits and vegitables. This is serious
business since we didn't buy any canned goods.

And for this, one needs a steady source of cooking flame, a pressure
cooker, a source of clean water, a large container capable of holding
multiple Mason jars, MULTIPLE Mason jars with matching seals and
rings, storage space, and a good place to wash and dry everything in
the first place.

Or one can blanch most fruits/veggies and freeze them, but then one
needs similar equipment as above, plus refrigeration/freezing, and
suitable containers.

Don't forget what the ambient temperatures are when all these foods
ripen and need to be preserved over that hot cookstove, either.

Linda H., veteran observer of canning

Thanks Linda,

Then what I remembered from 60+ years ago wasn't a flash back to 'Little
House'. That really was my Mother sweeting over the wood stove on a hot
August day after day after day.. Then going into tears when half the tomato
jars burst their top.

It is/was a rough life and I'm glad that I can now live in the woods, can't
see any utility lines (cause their underground), have running water from a
community well and with my social secruity and a small military pension I
eat very well without a garden.. Ya see I worked hard all my life for the
military and others and earned/paid into a pension plan that allows me to
retire in comfort in the woods.

Not to say there is anything wrong with hard work, but some of us are more
inclined to work in society and in the end have what we want while others
want to flee from society and work directly for what they want. In the end,
let's hope that we both can eventually relax and enjoy the fruits of our
individual labor.

Steve

Ian Stirling wrote in message
...
In misc.survivalism Down Under On The Bucket Farm
wrote:
Hi Everybody,

I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to
buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater
catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc.

One issue is the question of how much physical space would be
needed to grow enough food to completely support myself?

Kains wrote "5 Acres and Independence"

This is a reprint of a post WW2 get out of the city and back to the land
overview. It was also republished as The Mother Earth News issue #2;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3572219710

I seem to recall a 5 acre section of fast growing hybrid poplars would
supply an annual supply of firewood on a sustainable basis.

Another title I recall is Independence on a 5 acre farm.

Like any plan of this type, it all depends on the source of fresh water
as the #1 factor.

Bernadette

"Bob Peterson" wrote in message ...
"simy1" wrote in message
om...
"Bob Peterson" wrote in message
...

personally I suspect you can do a lot on 5 good acres with a continuous
water source, but I am leery of trusting my life to such a small area.


such a small area? In the US we produce easily 2 tons of wheat per
acre, which will cover the caloric needs of 7. Given that 90% of the
acreage is for feed,
we have much less than an acre per person to live on.

true, but this is using highly mechanized farming, specialty chemicals, and
hybrid seeds. what was being discussed was subsistence farming using all
manual labor. a radically different idea.

not sure I agree. On 1/6 acre, you can do things manually and
organically and still produce 300 kg over one year, and one can
certainly use hybrid seeds. As a matter of fact, in the best places we
do more like 4 tons per acre, so even if you want to save your own
seeds and use older varieties there is room for error. We have been
doing tons per acre for a long long time. Also, 300 kg of wheat are,
what, 60-70 bucks? I don't see the need to farm five acres in the
expectation of losing 97% of the crop. The guy has another job
apparently.

"David Hill" wrote in message ...
"...........In the US we produce easily 2 tons of wheat per
acre, which will cover the caloric needs of 7........."

You might do this on 100 acre fields where the birds are spoiled for choice,
but you try a small plot of grain and see just how much the birds have.

You may or may not be right. My birds even ignore the winter feeder I
put out for them, and 10 lbs of bird food go unfinished (and I live in
a place with plentiful wildlife) over the winter. As far as I can
tell, at my place the birds will eat seed only under extreme need -
they need the bugs more, and can find them even when the ground is
frozen (winter berries are also reltively plentiful). The squirrels
don't ignore the seeds, though, so I agree that one would have to
continuously kill & eat squirrels to save the crop. So, 1/4 acre
instead of 1/6?

"Tallgrass" wrote in message
om...
When it came canning time (it) was weeks of very hard hot work to
'put up'
hundreds of quarts or pints of fruits and vegitables. This is serious
business since we didn't buy any canned goods.

And for this, one needs a steady source of cooking flame, a pressure
cooker, a source of clean water, a large container capable of holding
multiple Mason jars, MULTIPLE Mason jars with matching seals and
rings, storage space, and a good place to wash and dry everything in
the first place.

some things like tomatoes can be canned in a boiling water bath, but most
will indeed need a pressure cooker.


Or one can blanch most fruits/veggies and freeze them, but then one
needs similar equipment as above, plus refrigeration/freezing, and
suitable containers.

Don't forget what the ambient temperatures are when all these foods
ripen and need to be preserved over that hot cookstove, either.

Linda H., veteran observer of canning

"BernadetteTS" wrote in message
...
Ian Stirling wrote in message
...
In misc.survivalism Down Under On The Bucket Farm
wrote:
Hi Everybody,

I am working on long-term plans for self-sufficiency, oriented to
buying some bare land and building an off-grid house, rainwater
catchment, composting toilet, etc, etc.

One issue is the question of how much physical space would be
needed to grow enough food to completely support myself?

Kains wrote "5 Acres and Independence"

This is a reprint of a post WW2 get out of the city and back to the land
overview. It was also republished as The Mother Earth News issue #2;
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=3572219710

I seem to recall a 5 acre section of fast growing hybrid poplars would
supply an annual supply of firewood on a sustainable basis.

It kind of depends on how much you need. Some of these claims are based on
very small housing units. I suppose if you had very well insulated and
tight housing you might get by as well. You still have to cut and split the
wood, which is a major chore in itself, even with power tools like a
chainsaw and splitter to help you.


Another title I recall is Independence on a 5 acre farm.

Like any plan of this type, it all depends on the source of fresh water
as the #1 factor.

Bernadette