On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:07:45 +1000, matt wrote:


Hey guys,

I was recomended this site by a mate, i don't have much in the way of
military training I was never allowed too join after being leveled by a
truck at 16. I've done a job or two under an old Pohm (Hard old *******s),
so I have a tendency too respect them a little more the most. Well hope too
hear from people soon.



I don't know who you've been talking to, but once this civilization breaks
down, you are going to have to worry about things like food and shelter
and heat and light and water and clothing and soap and utensils and tools.

If your idea of defense is to have some guns around and try to shoot anyone
that attacks you, then you just aren't going to last long.

You'll have a LOT of work to do, and IF the bandits can locate your place,
they aren't going to stand at the top of a nearby ridge and yell a
challenge to you.

They are going to shoot you in the back from 150 yards away while you are
chopping wood or carrying water and that's the end of that.

Or set booby-traps along the trails you frequent.

The Viet Cong basically defeated the Americans with sniping and booby-
traps....

Supposing you DID have some advance warning and managed to get your rifle
and find cover? The thing about firefights is that even the winner usually
suffers casualties and if you seriously hurt one of the bandits they are
going to be highy-motivated to return, even if you 'win', which is to say,
drive them off.

For a person desiring to live in safety and peace, neither of the above
are acceptable outcomes.

Forget about the guns. That approach only works in the movies and sometimes,
in the short run, for large, organized communities that are wealthy enough
to have a standing army of one kind or another.

Learn how to make your retreat inacessible to anyone but your trusted
friends (location and camouflage and no noise or smoke that can be
detected at a distance) and make sure that all of your essential things
are in fortified and/or hidden structures that you can retreat to until
they move on.

With nothing to steal, and no fight, they won't hang around for long,
and if you don't seriously hurt any of them, they won't have vengeance
as an excuse to return.

(make sure you erase any marks they might have left, like blazes on
trees, that would allow them to find their way back)

Earth-sheltered structures are simple to fortify and you can use smoke
generators to make the immediate area very unpleasant to be in, as
further discouragement.

The other key here is to have someone on patrol at all times, with
a whistle (etc.) to notify you of imminent danger, with a number of
small, hidden, safe-structures around the perimeter of the retreat
for them to find safety in after sounding that warning.

Usually, they would have time to just return to the steading and tell
you in person.

This patrol would also be on the lookout for people that you would LIKE
to get to know. The person on patrol could approach them carefully,
pretending to be hiking through, and make a decision about inviting
them to visit or not. And so on.

An important part of being inaccessible is having all obvious trails,
including big game trails, lead AROUND your retreat. Make it easy
for people to do this.

Another important part is making sure that no one follows you back
to your retreat from any kind of gathering elsewhere, or from
being accidentally observed by someone while you are out exploring
and such.

No ordinary group of people with guns can expect to be able to
make a living after the collapse and defend themselves from armed
and experienced bandits or large bands of desperate refugees, with
those guns.

Those that adopt this strategy are not likely to live for long,
and the time they do have will not be very pleasant.

AC

"Alan Connor" wrote in message
ink.net...
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:07:45 +1000, matt
wrote:


Hey guys,

I was recomended this site by a mate, i don't have much in the way of
military training I was never allowed too join after being leveled by a
truck at 16. I've done a job or two under an old Pohm (Hard old
*******s),
so I have a tendency too respect them a little more the most. Well hope
too
hear from people soon.



I don't know who you've been talking to, but once this civilization breaks
down, you are going to have to worry about things like food and shelter
and heat and light and water and clothing and soap and utensils and tools.

If your idea of defense is to have some guns around and try to shoot
anyone
that attacks you, then you just aren't going to last long.

You'll have a LOT of work to do, and IF the bandits can locate your place,
they aren't going to stand at the top of a nearby ridge and yell a
challenge to you.

They are going to shoot you in the back from 150 yards away while you are
chopping wood or carrying water and that's the end of that.

Or set booby-traps along the trails you frequent.

The Viet Cong basically defeated the Americans with sniping and booby-
traps....

Supposing you DID have some advance warning and managed to get your rifle
and find cover? The thing about firefights is that even the winner usually
suffers casualties and if you seriously hurt one of the bandits they are
going to be highy-motivated to return, even if you 'win', which is to say,
drive them off.

For a person desiring to live in safety and peace, neither of the above
are acceptable outcomes.

Forget about the guns. That approach only works in the movies and
sometimes,
in the short run, for large, organized communities that are wealthy enough
to have a standing army of one kind or another.

Learn how to make your retreat inacessible to anyone but your trusted
friends (location and camouflage and no noise or smoke that can be
detected at a distance) and make sure that all of your essential things
are in fortified and/or hidden structures that you can retreat to until
they move on.

With nothing to steal, and no fight, they won't hang around for long,
and if you don't seriously hurt any of them, they won't have vengeance
as an excuse to return.

(make sure you erase any marks they might have left, like blazes on
trees, that would allow them to find their way back)

Earth-sheltered structures are simple to fortify and you can use smoke
generators to make the immediate area very unpleasant to be in, as
further discouragement.

The other key here is to have someone on patrol at all times, with
a whistle (etc.) to notify you of imminent danger, with a number of
small, hidden, safe-structures around the perimeter of the retreat
for them to find safety in after sounding that warning.

Usually, they would have time to just return to the steading and tell
you in person.

This patrol would also be on the lookout for people that you would LIKE
to get to know. The person on patrol could approach them carefully,
pretending to be hiking through, and make a decision about inviting
them to visit or not. And so on.

An important part of being inaccessible is having all obvious trails,
including big game trails, lead AROUND your retreat. Make it easy
for people to do this.

Another important part is making sure that no one follows you back
to your retreat from any kind of gathering elsewhere, or from
being accidentally observed by someone while you are out exploring
and such.

No ordinary group of people with guns can expect to be able to
make a living after the collapse and defend themselves from armed
and experienced bandits or large bands of desperate refugees, with
those guns.

Those that adopt this strategy are not likely to live for long,
and the time they do have will not be very pleasant.

AC


See what I mean?
Fortunately,AC decided to show himself in his true Green Ninja Trained by
Bigfoot colours , which makes any criticism from me largely redundant :-)
cheers
Schon

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:47:28 -0700, The Independent wrote:




matt wrote:

Hey guys,

I was recomended this site by a mate, i don't have much in the way of
military training I was never allowed too join after being leveled by a
truck at 16. I've done a job or two under an old Pohm (Hard old *******s),
so I have a tendency too respect them a little more the most. Well hope too
hear from people soon.

Welcome aboard. The water or sometimes the lack of it is fine. I
wouldn't worry to much about lack of military experience as in most
cases the military prepares you to survive in the short term but does
little on nothing for preparation for survival for over a month or more.

I would pay more attention to places like bug out sites, alternate
sources of power, (water, wind, solar, geothermal) and then maybe
alternate sources of fuel, (wood gas, ethanol, biodiesel)

From time to time there are posts on wood working, metal working,
gardening, buying and storing bulk foods, storing water.

There will be an inordenant amount of posts on fire arms and I will say
(at the risk of receiving a whole lot of flame) that I wouldn't go out
and spend thousands of dollars for a survival arsenal. Just get a
couple of three good simple guns ( shot gun, small bore and large bore
rifles and maybe a medium caliber hand gun that are multi purpose and
spend you money on ammo and shooting to get competent with them.


There we go again: The key to defending your retreat is to get some
guns and ammo.

This is simplistic and naive.

Highly trained soldiers on full battle alert with modern weapons locked
and loaded, die all the time.

The real warriors (not cannonfodder/infantry) like the special forces,
spend only a small fraction of their training on weapons.

Both are being fully supported by a distant civilian population, which
post-collapse homesteaders will not be.

There is a LOT more to making war, and this is exactly what you are
talking about, than having weapons.

Most of the members of a military do not use weapons and that isn't
even counting all the people that grow and process their food, mine
and manufacture their weapons and vehicles, make their clothing and
electronics...

Only a large and prosperous retreat that can afford some kind of
reasonably sized standing armed force, well-trained and with a large,
dedicated support organization, can even consider using this approach
to retreat defenses.

No small retreat can hope to defend itself from organized groups of
bandits or large mobs of desperate refugees with nothing to lose,
with guns.

Another strategy MUST be found.

See my earlier post on this thread for some ideas:


A more detailed look at practical retreat defenses he

rthlink.net

Do not let these would-be cowboys, who can't tell real life from the movies,
lead you astray.

snip

AC

Alan Connor wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:47:28 -0700, The Independent wrote:
Oh I forgot Ignore Alan Connor all the time. He is a troll pure and
simple.

He claims to live in the deep dark woods, well as a computer consultant
for a large IBM 3090 VMS system running CICS and for the US Forest
Service there are no deep dark woods left in the lower 48 states.

90% of all forest land has been logged in the last 130 years with 70% of
it logged from 1940. The Forest service finished detailed mapping with
field checking in 1982.

Simply put Alan Connor doesn't live in the forests.

As for guns, if you have ever handled any kind of a fire arm you will
soon find that Alan Connor hasn't got the foggiest.

He keeps talking about his shields, then ask your self how come the U.S.
Government doesn't have Alan fancy shields in Iraq to protect the lives
of our service men.

Short answer "They don't exist.

Alan keep talking about growing grade a Bud. (Cannabis) on his hidden
garden plots. Well the DEA (US Drug Enforcement Administration) is
running patrols with drug sniffing dogs in forests and have driven most
of the growers inside in artificial growing environments.

Just sit back and take every thing Alan tells you with a big dose of
beer. Soon enough you will come to the same conclusion that every body
else has and ignore him.
--
The Independent of Clackamas County, Oregon

"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of
speeches and majority decisions ... but by iron and blood."

(Otto Von Bismarck, Speech, Sept. 30, 1862.)

yeah Ancieant One told me about that AO told me about the living in the
rockies thing. Ppl directed me here because I might be able too get some
work again i just lost my last $40000 helping a girl off the streets & drugs
then she left me, so last of the ol mercernary money is gone I did want too
retire out off it but now it seems I don't have that choice would love tooo
hear from ex merc's abotu the better organisations, I'll never work with
cops again they are too crooked.

Thank's sheerluck could too see us Aussie are getting everywhere he he, so
where are you.

Independent: Yes he is good with the speaches

Sue : ~l~ I like a women with a bit of bite
"The Independent" wrote in message
...


Alan Connor wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:47:28 -0700, The Independent
wrote:
Oh I forgot Ignore Alan Connor all the time. He is a troll pure and
simple.

He claims to live in the deep dark woods, well as a computer consultant
for a large IBM 3090 VMS system running CICS and for the US Forest
Service there are no deep dark woods left in the lower 48 states.

90% of all forest land has been logged in the last 130 years with 70% of
it logged from 1940. The Forest service finished detailed mapping with
field checking in 1982.

Simply put Alan Connor doesn't live in the forests.

As for guns, if you have ever handled any kind of a fire arm you will
soon find that Alan Connor hasn't got the foggiest.

He keeps talking about his shields, then ask your self how come the U.S.
Government doesn't have Alan fancy shields in Iraq to protect the lives
of our service men.

Short answer "They don't exist.

Alan keep talking about growing grade a Bud. (Cannabis) on his hidden
garden plots. Well the DEA (US Drug Enforcement Administration) is
running patrols with drug sniffing dogs in forests and have driven most
of the growers inside in artificial growing environments.

Just sit back and take every thing Alan tells you with a big dose of
beer. Soon enough you will come to the same conclusion that every body
else has and ignore him.
--
The Independent of Clackamas County, Oregon

"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of
speeches and majority decisions ... but by iron and blood."

(Otto Von Bismarck, Speech, Sept. 30, 1862.)

OK Allan,,,,,,,,, tis Okay an old Northern ******* like me will proably
diappear into the bush & live like a blackfella. Eating Turtles, Dogon &
roo's. I grew up in the bush with the black fellas yes I even have a totem
so I'll let the world go too shit it won't bother me I'ld proably be happy
there with no tech if the world went too shit & making your way there in a
Monsoon is unheard off Unless you can swim inland oceans that appear in a
dessert overnight. reality is if some one wants too kill you they'll do it

i like the Stein sub machine gun & prefer the SLR over most Rifles I know
I'm a little old fashioned but the SLR has one hell of a range & does a
shit load of damage. I like the Stein because she has saved my arse yeas I
agree in
"Alan Connor" wrote in message
ink.net...
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:07:45 +1000, matt
wrote:


Hey guys,

I was recomended this site by a mate, i don't have much in the way of
military training I was never allowed too join after being leveled by a
truck at 16. I've done a job or two under an old Pohm (Hard old
*******s),
so I have a tendency too respect them a little more the most. Well hope
too
hear from people soon.



I don't know who you've been talking to, but once this civilization breaks
down, you are going to have to worry about things like food and shelter
and heat and light and water and clothing and soap and utensils and tools.

If your idea of defense is to have some guns around and try to shoot
anyone
that attacks you, then you just aren't going to last long.

You'll have a LOT of work to do, and IF the bandits can locate your place,
they aren't going to stand at the top of a nearby ridge and yell a
challenge to you.

They are going to shoot you in the back from 150 yards away while you are
chopping wood or carrying water and that's the end of that.

Or set booby-traps along the trails you frequent.

The Viet Cong basically defeated the Americans with sniping and booby-
traps....

Supposing you DID have some advance warning and managed to get your rifle
and find cover? The thing about firefights is that even the winner usually
suffers casualties and if you seriously hurt one of the bandits they are
going to be highy-motivated to return, even if you 'win', which is to say,
drive them off.

For a person desiring to live in safety and peace, neither of the above
are acceptable outcomes.

Forget about the guns. That approach only works in the movies and
sometimes,
in the short run, for large, organized communities that are wealthy enough
to have a standing army of one kind or another.

Learn how to make your retreat inacessible to anyone but your trusted
friends (location and camouflage and no noise or smoke that can be
detected at a distance) and make sure that all of your essential things
are in fortified and/or hidden structures that you can retreat to until
they move on.

With nothing to steal, and no fight, they won't hang around for long,
and if you don't seriously hurt any of them, they won't have vengeance
as an excuse to return.

(make sure you erase any marks they might have left, like blazes on
trees, that would allow them to find their way back)

Earth-sheltered structures are simple to fortify and you can use smoke
generators to make the immediate area very unpleasant to be in, as
further discouragement.

The other key here is to have someone on patrol at all times, with
a whistle (etc.) to notify you of imminent danger, with a number of
small, hidden, safe-structures around the perimeter of the retreat
for them to find safety in after sounding that warning.

Usually, they would have time to just return to the steading and tell
you in person.

This patrol would also be on the lookout for people that you would LIKE
to get to know. The person on patrol could approach them carefully,
pretending to be hiking through, and make a decision about inviting
them to visit or not. And so on.

An important part of being inaccessible is having all obvious trails,
including big game trails, lead AROUND your retreat. Make it easy
for people to do this.

Another important part is making sure that no one follows you back
to your retreat from any kind of gathering elsewhere, or from
being accidentally observed by someone while you are out exploring
and such.

No ordinary group of people with guns can expect to be able to
make a living after the collapse and defend themselves from armed
and experienced bandits or large bands of desperate refugees, with
those guns.

Those that adopt this strategy are not likely to live for long,
and the time they do have will not be very pleasant.

AC

matt wrote:

yeah Ancieant One told me about that AO told me about the living in the
rockies thing. Ppl directed me here because I might be able too get some
work again i just lost my last $40000 helping a girl off the streets & drugs
then she left me, so last of the ol mercernary money is gone I did want too
retire out off it but now it seems I don't have that choice would love tooo
hear from ex merc's abotu the better organisations, I'll never work with
cops again they are too crooked.

Thank's sheerluck could too see us Aussie are getting everywhere he he, so
where are you.

Independent: Yes he is good with the speaches

Sue : ~l~ I like a women with a bit of bite
"The Independent" wrote in message
...


Alan Connor wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:47:28 -0700, The Independent
wrote:
Oh I forgot Ignore Alan Connor all the time. He is a troll pure and
simple.

He claims to live in the deep dark woods, well as a computer consultant
for a large IBM 3090 VMS system running CICS and for the US Forest
Service there are no deep dark woods left in the lower 48 states.

90% of all forest land has been logged in the last 130 years with 70% of
it logged from 1940. The Forest service finished detailed mapping with
field checking in 1982.

Simply put Alan Connor doesn't live in the forests.

As for guns, if you have ever handled any kind of a fire arm you will
soon find that Alan Connor hasn't got the foggiest.

He keeps talking about his shields, then ask your self how come the U.S.
Government doesn't have Alan fancy shields in Iraq to protect the lives
of our service men.

Short answer "They don't exist.

Alan keep talking about growing grade a Bud. (Cannabis) on his hidden
garden plots. Well the DEA (US Drug Enforcement Administration) is
running patrols with drug sniffing dogs in forests and have driven most
of the growers inside in artificial growing environments.

Just sit back and take every thing Alan tells you with a big dose of
beer. Soon enough you will come to the same conclusion that every body
else has and ignore him.
--
The Independent of Clackamas County, Oregon

"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of
speeches and majority decisions ... but by iron and blood."

(Otto Von Bismarck, Speech, Sept. 30, 1862.)

Hay Matt.
After this last beheading thing in Saudi Arabia I suspect that the
Internationals will be hiring security personnel big time. You might
look up the companies doing business in the Middle east and hire out
your services for a security detail.


The Independent of Clackamas County, Oregon

"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of
speeches and majority decisions ... but by iron and blood."

(Otto Von Bismarck, Speech, Sept. 30, 1862.)

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:44:29 -0700, The Independent wrote:




Alan Connor wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:47:28 -0700, The Independent wrote:
Oh I forgot Ignore Alan Connor all the time. He is a troll pure and
simple.
He claims to live in the deep dark woods, well as a computer consultant
for a large IBM 3090 VMS system running CICS and for the US Forest
Service there are no deep dark woods left in the lower 48 states.

90% of all forest land has been logged in the last 130 years with 70% of
it logged from 1940. The Forest service finished detailed mapping with
field checking in 1982.


http://www.sharplogger.vt.edu/virginiasfi/faq.html


quote


Are America?s forests in danger?
Not at all. Because the United States practices
reforestation, its forests have actually grown in size over
the past century. About one-third of the United States?731
million acres?is covered with trees. That?s about
two-thirds of the forestland that existed when Columbus
discovered America. In fact, we have more trees today than
we had 70 years ago. Scientists estimate that America?s
forestlands contain some 230 billion trees?around 1,000 for
each person. And some 4 million more trees are being
planted each day. On the nation?s commercial forests, net
annual growth exceeds harvests and losses to insects and
disease by an impressive 27 percent each year.

....


How much actual timberland does America have?
Two-thirds of America?s forestland, some 518 million acres,
is classified as "timberland," forest capable of growing 20
cubic feet per acre per year. About 34.5 million acres of
productive U.S. timberland?an area the size of Florida?are
set aside for non-timber uses by law as parks or wilderness
areas. The remaining 483 million acres are classified as
"commercial timberland" and can be used for growing and
harvesting repeated crops of trees. But even in these
forested areas, portions are permanently set aside for
non-commercial uses such as recreation, streamside
protection and wildlife habitat. Of the 191 million acres
contained within the National Forest System, only 57
million acres are available for timber harvesting.


/quote


Jim gets upset whenever anyone points out that having a gun
and being safe are not the same thing...

Hey Jim! Since you know where I *don't* live, then you must
know where I *do* live.

Why don't you post the directions to my location for everyone
to see?

Better yet, come and try to shoot me with your Big Bad Gun.

No problem, right? No trees to hide in....

Bring a camera, okay? That way I can post an image of you.
with your gun sticking out of your asshole.

snip the balance of Jim's latest attempt to make everyone
in the world think that he is a complete fool


AC


--
"The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a
comfortable living from a small piece of land." -Abraham Lincoln

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:26:57 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:44:29 -0700, The Independent wrote:




Alan Connor wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:47:28 -0700, The Independent wrote:
Oh I forgot Ignore Alan Connor all the time. He is a troll pure and
simple.
He claims to live in the deep dark woods, well as a computer consultant
for a large IBM 3090 VMS system running CICS and for the US Forest
Service there are no deep dark woods left in the lower 48 states.

90% of all forest land has been logged in the last 130 years with 70% of
it logged from 1940. The Forest service finished detailed mapping with
field checking in 1982.


http://www.sharplogger.vt.edu/virginiasfi/faq.html


quote


Are America?s forests in danger?
Not at all. Because the United States practices
reforestation, its forests have actually grown in size over
the past century. About one-third of the United States?731
million acres?is covered with trees. That?s about
two-thirds of the forestland that existed when Columbus
discovered America. In fact, we have more trees today than
we had 70 years ago. Scientists estimate that America?s
forestlands contain some 230 billion trees?around 1,000 for
each person. And some 4 million more trees are being
planted each day. On the nation?s commercial forests, net
annual growth exceeds harvests and losses to insects and
disease by an impressive 27 percent each year.

...


How much actual timberland does America have?
Two-thirds of America?s forestland, some 518 million acres,
is classified as "timberland," forest capable of growing 20
cubic feet per acre per year. About 34.5 million acres of
productive U.S. timberland?an area the size of Florida?are
set aside for non-timber uses by law as parks or wilderness
areas. The remaining 483 million acres are classified as
"commercial timberland" and can be used for growing and
harvesting repeated crops of trees. But even in these
forested areas, portions are permanently set aside for
non-commercial uses such as recreation, streamside
protection and wildlife habitat. Of the 191 million acres
contained within the National Forest System, only 57
million acres are available for timber harvesting.


/quote


Jim gets upset whenever anyone points out that having a gun
and being safe are not the same thing...

Hey Jim! Since you know where I *don't* live, then you must
know where I *do* live.

Why don't you post the directions to my location for everyone
to see?

Better yet, come and try to shoot me with your Big Bad Gun.

No problem, right? No trees to hide in....

Bring a camera, okay? That way I can post an image of you.
with your gun sticking out of your asshole.

snip the balance of Jim's latest attempt to make everyone
in the world think that he is a complete fool


AC


--
"The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a
comfortable living from a small piece of land." -Abraham Lincoln


Intereting observations Alan.. in Santa Cruz county... old pictures
from early 1900s show a county and city in particular.. with almost no
trees... now trees everywhere...

MIke

Alan Connor wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:44:29 -0700, The Independent wrote:




Alan Connor wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:47:28 -0700, The Independent wrote:
Oh I forgot Ignore Alan Connor all the time. He is a troll pure and
simple.
He claims to live in the deep dark woods, well as a computer consultant
for a large IBM 3090 VMS system running CICS and for the US Forest
Service there are no deep dark woods left in the lower 48 states.

90% of all forest land has been logged in the last 130 years with 70% of
it logged from 1940. The Forest service finished detailed mapping with
field checking in 1982.


http://www.sharplogger.vt.edu/virginiasfi/faq.html

quote

Are America?s forests in danger?
Not at all. Because the United States practices
reforestation, its forests have actually grown in size over
the past century. About one-third of the United States?731
million acres?is covered with trees. That?s about
two-thirds of the forestland that existed when Columbus
discovered America. In fact, we have more trees today than
we had 70 years ago. Scientists estimate that America?s
forestlands contain some 230 billion trees?around 1,000 for
each person. And some 4 million more trees are being
planted each day. On the nation?s commercial forests, net
annual growth exceeds harvests and losses to insects and
disease by an impressive 27 percent each year.

...

How much actual timberland does America have?
Two-thirds of America?s forestland, some 518 million acres,
is classified as "timberland," forest capable of growing 20
cubic feet per acre per year. About 34.5 million acres of
productive U.S. timberland?an area the size of Florida?are
set aside for non-timber uses by law as parks or wilderness
areas. The remaining 483 million acres are classified as
"commercial timberland" and can be used for growing and
harvesting repeated crops of trees. But even in these
forested areas, portions are permanently set aside for
non-commercial uses such as recreation, streamside
protection and wildlife habitat. Of the 191 million acres
contained within the National Forest System, only 57
million acres are available for timber harvesting.

/quote

Jim gets upset whenever anyone points out that having a gun
and being safe are not the same thing...

Hey Jim! Since you know where I *don't* live, then you must
know where I *do* live.

Why don't you post the directions to my location for everyone
to see?

Better yet, come and try to shoot me with your Big Bad Gun.

No problem, right? No trees to hide in....

Bring a camera, okay? That way I can post an image of you.
with your gun sticking out of your asshole.

snip the balance of Jim's latest attempt to make everyone
in the world think that he is a complete fool

AC

--
"The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a
comfortable living from a small piece of land." -Abraham Lincoln

I hate to break it to you but I don't give a rats ass about what you say
or don't say. Give me one good reason why I should spend any time and
capital trying to find you when I could be riding my horses, rebuilding
wrecked aircraft structures, restoring old horse drawn implements and a
couple of hundred things I like to do.

Alan you aren't worth the effort, and that's a fact.


The Independent of Clackamas County, Oregon

"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of
speeches and majority decisions ... but by iron and blood."

(Otto Von Bismarck, Speech, Sept. 30, 1862.)

"The Independent" wrote in message
...


Alan Connor wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:44:29 -0700, The Independent
wrote:




Alan Connor wrote:

On Sat, 19 Jun 2004 22:47:28 -0700, The Independent
wrote:
Oh I forgot Ignore Alan Connor all the time. He is a troll pure and
simple.
He claims to live in the deep dark woods, well as a computer
consultant
for a large IBM 3090 VMS system running CICS and for the US Forest
Service there are no deep dark woods left in the lower 48 states.

90% of all forest land has been logged in the last 130 years with 70%
of
it logged from 1940. The Forest service finished detailed mapping
with
field checking in 1982.


http://www.sharplogger.vt.edu/virginiasfi/faq.html

quote

Are America?s forests in danger?
Not at all. Because the United States practices
reforestation, its forests have actually grown in size over
the past century. About one-third of the United States?731
million acres?is covered with trees. That?s about
two-thirds of the forestland that existed when Columbus
discovered America. In fact, we have more trees today than
we had 70 years ago. Scientists estimate that America?s
forestlands contain some 230 billion trees?around 1,000 for
each person. And some 4 million more trees are being
planted each day. On the nation?s commercial forests, net
annual growth exceeds harvests and losses to insects and
disease by an impressive 27 percent each year.

...

How much actual timberland does America have?
Two-thirds of America?s forestland, some 518 million acres,
is classified as "timberland," forest capable of growing 20
cubic feet per acre per year. About 34.5 million acres of
productive U.S. timberland?an area the size of Florida?are
set aside for non-timber uses by law as parks or wilderness
areas. The remaining 483 million acres are classified as
"commercial timberland" and can be used for growing and
harvesting repeated crops of trees. But even in these
forested areas, portions are permanently set aside for
non-commercial uses such as recreation, streamside
protection and wildlife habitat. Of the 191 million acres
contained within the National Forest System, only 57
million acres are available for timber harvesting.

/quote

Jim gets upset whenever anyone points out that having a gun
and being safe are not the same thing...

Hey Jim! Since you know where I *don't* live, then you must
know where I *do* live.

Why don't you post the directions to my location for everyone
to see?

Better yet, come and try to shoot me with your Big Bad Gun.

No problem, right? No trees to hide in....

Bring a camera, okay? That way I can post an image of you.
with your gun sticking out of your asshole.

snip the balance of Jim's latest attempt to make everyone
in the world think that he is a complete fool

AC

--
"The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a
comfortable living from a small piece of land." -Abraham Lincoln

I hate to break it to you but I don't give a rats ass about what you say
or don't say. Give me one good reason why I should spend any time and
capital trying to find you when I could be riding my horses, rebuilding
wrecked aircraft structures, restoring old horse drawn implements and a
couple of hundred things I like to do.

Alan you aren't worth the effort, and that's a fact.


The Independent of Clackamas County, Oregon

"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of
speeches and majority decisions ... but by iron and blood."

(Otto Von Bismarck, Speech, Sept. 30, 1862.)
Can I have a job? sounds fun Only just learnt about riding horses, yes i am
a camal man I grew up with em & have only really ridden camals starnge for
an Aussie but not for kids who grew up on the dessert fringe. A horse jsut
feels weird too me to many legs moving too diferenly. I like the sway of the
camel plus they are grumpy old *******s. like me

"matt" wrote in message
u...
OK Allan,,,,,,,,, tis Okay an old Northern ******* like me will proably
diappear into the bush & live like a blackfella. Eating Turtles, Dogon &
roo's. I grew up in the bush with the black fellas yes I even have a totem
so I'll let the world go too shit it won't bother me I'ld proably be happy
there with no tech if the world went too shit & making your way there in a
Monsoon is unheard off Unless you can swim inland oceans that appear in a
dessert overnight. reality is if some one wants too kill you they'll do it

i like the Stein sub machine gun & prefer the SLR over most Rifles I know
I'm a little old fashioned but the SLR has one hell of a range & does a
shit load of damage. I like the Stein because she has saved my arse yeas I
agree in
"Alan Connor" wrote in message
ink.net...
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:07:45 +1000, matt
wrote:


Hey guys,

I was recomended this site by a mate, i don't have much in the way of
military training I was never allowed too join after being leveled by
a
truck at 16. I've done a job or two under an old Pohm (Hard old
*******s),
so I have a tendency too respect them a little more the most. Well
hope
too
hear from people soon.



I don't know who you've been talking to, but once this civilization
breaks
down, you are going to have to worry about things like food and shelter
and heat and light and water and clothing and soap and utensils and
tools.

If your idea of defense is to have some guns around and try to shoot
anyone
that attacks you, then you just aren't going to last long.

You'll have a LOT of work to do, and IF the bandits can locate your
place,
they aren't going to stand at the top of a nearby ridge and yell a
challenge to you.

They are going to shoot you in the back from 150 yards away while you
are
chopping wood or carrying water and that's the end of that.

Or set booby-traps along the trails you frequent.

The Viet Cong basically defeated the Americans with sniping and booby-
traps....

Supposing you DID have some advance warning and managed to get your
rifle
and find cover? The thing about firefights is that even the winner
usually
suffers casualties and if you seriously hurt one of the bandits they are
going to be highy-motivated to return, even if you 'win', which is to
say,
drive them off.

For a person desiring to live in safety and peace, neither of the above
are acceptable outcomes.

Forget about the guns. That approach only works in the movies and
sometimes,
in the short run, for large, organized communities that are wealthy
enough
to have a standing army of one kind or another.

Learn how to make your retreat inacessible to anyone but your trusted
friends (location and camouflage and no noise or smoke that can be
detected at a distance) and make sure that all of your essential things
are in fortified and/or hidden structures that you can retreat to until
they move on.

With nothing to steal, and no fight, they won't hang around for long,
and if you don't seriously hurt any of them, they won't have vengeance
as an excuse to return.

(make sure you erase any marks they might have left, like blazes on
trees, that would allow them to find their way back)

Earth-sheltered structures are simple to fortify and you can use smoke
generators to make the immediate area very unpleasant to be in, as
further discouragement.

The other key here is to have someone on patrol at all times, with
a whistle (etc.) to notify you of imminent danger, with a number of
small, hidden, safe-structures around the perimeter of the retreat
for them to find safety in after sounding that warning.

Usually, they would have time to just return to the steading and tell
you in person.

This patrol would also be on the lookout for people that you would LIKE
to get to know. The person on patrol could approach them carefully,
pretending to be hiking through, and make a decision about inviting
them to visit or not. And so on.

An important part of being inaccessible is having all obvious trails,
including big game trails, lead AROUND your retreat. Make it easy
for people to do this.

Another important part is making sure that no one follows you back
to your retreat from any kind of gathering elsewhere, or from
being accidentally observed by someone while you are out exploring
and such.

No ordinary group of people with guns can expect to be able to
make a living after the collapse and defend themselves from armed
and experienced bandits or large bands of desperate refugees, with
those guns.

Those that adopt this strategy are not likely to live for long,
and the time they do have will not be very pleasant.

AC




yeh well i just ate me last wombat mate and im still starvin

"Graham Blackham" wrote in message
...

"matt" wrote in message
u...
OK Allan,,,,,,,,, tis Okay an old Northern ******* like me will proably
diappear into the bush & live like a blackfella. Eating Turtles, Dogon &
roo's. I grew up in the bush with the black fellas yes I even have a
totem
so I'll let the world go too shit it won't bother me I'ld proably be
happy
there with no tech if the world went too shit & making your way there in
a
Monsoon is unheard off Unless you can swim inland oceans that appear in
a
dessert overnight. reality is if some one wants too kill you they'll do
it

i like the Stein sub machine gun & prefer the SLR over most Rifles I
know
I'm a little old fashioned but the SLR has one hell of a range & does a
shit load of damage. I like the Stein because she has saved my arse yeas
I
agree in
"Alan Connor" wrote in message
ink.net...
On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 14:07:45 +1000, matt

wrote:


Hey guys,

I was recomended this site by a mate, i don't have much in the way
of
military training I was never allowed too join after being leveled
by
a
truck at 16. I've done a job or two under an old Pohm (Hard old
*******s),
so I have a tendency too respect them a little more the most. Well
hope
too
hear from people soon.



I don't know who you've been talking to, but once this civilization
breaks
down, you are going to have to worry about things like food and
shelter
and heat and light and water and clothing and soap and utensils and
tools.

If your idea of defense is to have some guns around and try to shoot
anyone
that attacks you, then you just aren't going to last long.

You'll have a LOT of work to do, and IF the bandits can locate your
place,
they aren't going to stand at the top of a nearby ridge and yell a
challenge to you.

They are going to shoot you in the back from 150 yards away while you
are
chopping wood or carrying water and that's the end of that.

Or set booby-traps along the trails you frequent.

The Viet Cong basically defeated the Americans with sniping and booby-
traps....

Supposing you DID have some advance warning and managed to get your
rifle
and find cover? The thing about firefights is that even the winner
usually
suffers casualties and if you seriously hurt one of the bandits they
are
going to be highy-motivated to return, even if you 'win', which is to
say,
drive them off.

For a person desiring to live in safety and peace, neither of the
above
are acceptable outcomes.

Forget about the guns. That approach only works in the movies and
sometimes,
in the short run, for large, organized communities that are wealthy
enough
to have a standing army of one kind or another.

Learn how to make your retreat inacessible to anyone but your trusted
friends (location and camouflage and no noise or smoke that can be
detected at a distance) and make sure that all of your essential
things
are in fortified and/or hidden structures that you can retreat to
until
they move on.

With nothing to steal, and no fight, they won't hang around for long,
and if you don't seriously hurt any of them, they won't have vengeance
as an excuse to return.

(make sure you erase any marks they might have left, like blazes on
trees, that would allow them to find their way back)

Earth-sheltered structures are simple to fortify and you can use smoke
generators to make the immediate area very unpleasant to be in, as
further discouragement.

The other key here is to have someone on patrol at all times, with
a whistle (etc.) to notify you of imminent danger, with a number of
small, hidden, safe-structures around the perimeter of the retreat
for them to find safety in after sounding that warning.

Usually, they would have time to just return to the steading and tell
you in person.

This patrol would also be on the lookout for people that you would
LIKE
to get to know. The person on patrol could approach them carefully,
pretending to be hiking through, and make a decision about inviting
them to visit or not. And so on.

An important part of being inaccessible is having all obvious trails,
including big game trails, lead AROUND your retreat. Make it easy
for people to do this.

Another important part is making sure that no one follows you back
to your retreat from any kind of gathering elsewhere, or from
being accidentally observed by someone while you are out exploring
and such.

No ordinary group of people with guns can expect to be able to
make a living after the collapse and defend themselves from armed
and experienced bandits or large bands of desperate refugees, with
those guns.

Those that adopt this strategy are not likely to live for long,
and the time they do have will not be very pleasant.

AC




yeh well i just ate me last wombat mate and im still starvin

Wombat is one of the few animals I haven't eaten Sea Turtle is one of the
best meat i have EVER eaten better then Steak, it has a rich beefy
flavour......god I'm drooling already

Santa Cruz Mike wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:26:57 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:44:29 -0700, The Independent wrote:
snipped


AC


--
"The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a
comfortable living from a small piece of land." -Abraham Lincoln

Intereting observations Alan.. in Santa Cruz county... old pictures
from early 1900s show a county and city in particular.. with almost no
trees... now trees everywhere...

MIke

Mike there is only about 7% of all old growth forests left in the United
States. Most of the North west was logged off in between 1910 and
1930.

Even in old growth timber, you cannot hide indefinitely. There was an
Ultra Light aircraft that was supposed to be flying over the south of
Union Mills Oregon that didn't come back. Nobody had a clue were it
went down. With in two years it was found on the slopes of Mt. Hood in
Old Growth Timber, by hunters.

My point is ANAL (anagram for Alan) Connor is not hiding in the forest.
It just cannot be done in 21st century America.


The Independent of Clackamas County, Oregon

"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of
speeches and majority decisions ... but by iron and blood."

(Otto Von Bismarck, Speech, Sept. 30, 1862.)

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 06:35:23 -0700, The Independent
wrote:



Santa Cruz Mike wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 21:26:57 GMT, Alan Connor wrote:

On Sun, 20 Jun 2004 00:44:29 -0700, The Independent wrote:
snipped


AC


--
"The greatest fine art of the future will be the making of a
comfortable living from a small piece of land." -Abraham Lincoln

Intereting observations Alan.. in Santa Cruz county... old pictures
from early 1900s show a county and city in particular.. with almost no
trees... now trees everywhere...

MIke

Mike there is only about 7% of all old growth forests left in the United
States. Most of the North west was logged off in between 1910 and
1930.

Even in old growth timber, you cannot hide indefinitely. There was an
Ultra Light aircraft that was supposed to be flying over the south of
Union Mills Oregon that didn't come back. Nobody had a clue were it
went down. With in two years it was found on the slopes of Mt. Hood in
Old Growth Timber, by hunters.

My point is ANAL (anagram for Alan) Connor is not hiding in the forest.
It just cannot be done in 21st century America.

Tell it to Eric Rudolph (in the mountains of North Carolina)
and hundreds of others that have skillfully eluded the
vengeful.


The Independent of Clackamas County, Oregon

"The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of
speeches and majority decisions ... but by iron and blood."

(Otto Von Bismarck, Speech, Sept. 30, 1862.)