#1   Report Post  
Old 28-07-2005, 04:29 PM
Mr. Zee
 
Posts: n/a
Default 4.7 Watts per Gallon!

Hi Folks:

I just got back into the aquarium hobby after a 15 year vacation. Wow,
the compact flourcent lights that are available are great! (I remember how
hot my tank got with the older lights.) Anyway until yesterday I had a Cora
life 48" strip w/2 65watt bulbs on my 55gal. Plants were doing fine but not
really growing that much. The red ones (not sure which) were only
surviving. I just installed a Coralife quad arrangement: 4 65watt bulbs.
What a difference in light! I'm looking forward to more plant growth I
think. I also have a DIY CO2 generator that bubbles a bit and I use
Sachem's Excel. I just LOVE looking at the plants and the cardinals
moving through them. So pretty!


  #3   Report Post  
Old 29-07-2005, 07:57 AM
Mr. Zee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'd like to try CO2 injection , but it seems that I need an appx. $200
outlay. Also, my tapwater pH is a low (6.7) and so is the hardness. (Soft)
As I understand it to do this correctly I need to monitor the pH with a
meterin order to inject the proper amount of CO2. I like keeping soft water
fish (South American dawrf cichlids, and perhaps discus in the future) but
the initial cost and 'micromanagement' seem prohibitive. This is just my
feeling, from a beginner. Any opinions/comments welcome. Thanks for all
the advise.


"George Pontis" wrote in message
t...
In article . net,

says...
Hi Folks:

I just got back into the aquarium hobby after a 15 year vacation.
Wow,
the compact flourcent lights that are available are great! (I remember
how
hot my tank got with the older lights.) Anyway until yesterday I had a
Cora
life 48" strip w/2 65watt bulbs on my 55gal. Plants were doing fine but
not
really growing that much. The red ones (not sure which) were only
surviving. I just installed a Coralife quad arrangement: 4 65watt
bulbs.
What a difference in light! I'm looking forward to more plant growth I
think. I also have a DIY CO2 generator that bubbles a bit and I use
Sachem's Excel. I just LOVE looking at the plants and the cardinals
moving through them. So pretty!


Sounds good, if not a bit hard on the electric bill. I have some Excel and
am in
the process of using it up but the stuff gets expensive for large tanks
like that.
Have you considered getting a cylinder of CO2 ? It's effective and less
maintenance than DIY CO2 and dosing Excel.



  #4   Report Post  
Old 29-07-2005, 08:29 PM
George Pontis
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article k.net,
says...
I'd like to try CO2 injection , but it seems that I need an appx. $200
outlay. Also, my tapwater pH is a low (6.7) and so is the hardness. (Soft)
As I understand it to do this correctly I need to monitor the pH with a
meterin order to inject the proper amount of CO2. I like keeping soft water
fish (South American dawrf cichlids, and perhaps discus in the future) but
the initial cost and 'micromanagement' seem prohibitive. This is just my
feeling, from a beginner. Any opinions/comments welcome. Thanks for all
the advise.


There is a cost factor but you might be able to get equipped in the low $100 range
if you are lucky enough to find a cheap 5, 10, or 20 lb CO2 tank on the used
market. (I bought two for around $30 each.) The Milwaukee CO2 regulator with
bubble counter and needle valve is readily available on eBay for about $80 (new).
A Hagen bubble ladder is about $10. You do not require an automatic pH
monitor/controller. Instead you can set it up at some initial rate, say 1 bubble
every two seconds, then adjust up or down as needed to get to the level you seek.
If you know your KH, then you can determine CO2 by measuring pH using your
favorite test method. It may take a small adjustment once or twice a day for three
days to establish your setting, but once done it will remain stable.

As far as the water softness and pH, it sounds like you would need to add a small
amount of baking soda to balance the CO2. If you added only enough to reach a KH
of 3 degrees (less than one teaspoon in 10 gallons), that would support a useful
level of 10ppm CO2 at a pH of 7.

There is good reading he
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/
  #5   Report Post  
Old 29-07-2005, 09:04 PM
Nikki Casali
 
Posts: n/a
Default

George Pontis wrote:
You do not require an automatic pH
monitor/controller. Instead you can set it up at some initial rate, say 1 bubble
every two seconds, then adjust up or down as needed to get to the level you seek.
If you know your KH, then you can determine CO2 by measuring pH using your
favorite test method. It may take a small adjustment once or twice a day for three
days to establish your setting, but once done it will remain stable.


I find my that bubble rate varies depending on ambient temperature. The
higher the temperature, the lower the bubble rate. One day, I set my
needle valve for 2 BPS. Ambient temperature was 25 degrees C. The next
day the temperature rose to 30C. I got 1/2 BPS. I set the bubble rate
back to 2 BPS. The day after it went back down to 25C. The bubble rate
was now 4 BPS. This must be something to do with expansion of metal
parts or cheap CO2 valves. I'm not sure if this is everyone's
experience, but I have to use a pH controller to keep the pH stable. It
was just far too much stress without it.

Nikki



  #6   Report Post  
Old 30-07-2005, 05:26 AM
Bill Stock
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Nikki Casali" wrote in message
...
George Pontis wrote:
You do not require an automatic pH
monitor/controller. Instead you can set it up at some initial rate, say 1
bubble every two seconds, then adjust up or down as needed to get to the
level you seek. If you know your KH, then you can determine CO2 by
measuring pH using your favorite test method. It may take a small
adjustment once or twice a day for three days to establish your setting,
but once done it will remain stable.


I find my that bubble rate varies depending on ambient temperature. The
higher the temperature, the lower the bubble rate. One day, I set my
needle valve for 2 BPS. Ambient temperature was 25 degrees C. The next day
the temperature rose to 30C. I got 1/2 BPS. I set the bubble rate back to
2 BPS. The day after it went back down to 25C. The bubble rate was now 4
BPS. This must be something to do with expansion of metal parts or cheap
CO2 valves. I'm not sure if this is everyone's experience, but I have to
use a pH controller to keep the pH stable. It was just far too much stress
without it.

Nikki


I had real problems with my first needle valve, it would not stay consistent
at all. This caused large PH swings, as the bubble count was always falling
off. The company finally replaced the whole regulator and it does seem
better. But I purchased a PH monitor long before the replacement arrived.
It's worth the extra
cost for the peace of mind (at least for me). I expect more expensive needle
valves may be less problematic.


  #7   Report Post  
Old 30-07-2005, 06:38 AM
George Pontis
 
Posts: n/a
Default

In article ,
says...
George Pontis wrote:
You do not require an automatic pH
monitor/controller. Instead you can set it up at some initial rate, say 1 bubble
every two seconds, then adjust up or down as needed to get to the level you seek.
If you know your KH, then you can determine CO2 by measuring pH using your
favorite test method. It may take a small adjustment once or twice a day for three
days to establish your setting, but once done it will remain stable.


I find my that bubble rate varies depending on ambient temperature. The
higher the temperature, the lower the bubble rate. One day, I set my
needle valve for 2 BPS. Ambient temperature was 25 degrees C. The next
day the temperature rose to 30C. I got 1/2 BPS. I set the bubble rate
back to 2 BPS. The day after it went back down to 25C. The bubble rate
was now 4 BPS. This must be something to do with expansion of metal
parts or cheap CO2 valves. I'm not sure if this is everyone's
experience, but I have to use a pH controller to keep the pH stable. It
was just far too much stress without it.

Nikki


Hi Nikki,

A 4:1 change over a few degrees of temperature, that is quite sensitive. And
understandable why you prefer the use of a pH probe and controller. One day I will
have to get one to play with. But perhaps your unit is worse than typical ? The
constant-flow, open-loop system seems to be commonly used, and hardly anyone could
live with that kind of variation.

The instructions that came with my Wilwaukee regulator said that one should open
the needle valve so it is not limiting, then use the regulator pressure adjustment
to set the flow rate. My unit that was not stable with that adjustment. I found it
better to set the pressure to something that could be diplayed on the gauge, say 5
psi, then adjust the needle valve for the desired flow. This has worked really
well for me - it never needs further adjustment. I should note that I have the
solenoid powered 24/7. If one were to plot CO2 over a 24 hr period, there might be
a few tenths change; I have not watched it that carefully. But when I check in the
mornings the pH is consistent and so is the bubble rate.

George
  #8   Report Post  
Old 30-07-2005, 08:11 AM
Mr. Zee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Well this is all very interesting and I must admit that once I do a bit of
research I'll go to CO2 injection way. BUT in the meantime (say 3-4
month's? ) Seachem's Excel seems easier, if it works. Does it? I've got a
55 gallon tank, and I use about 2 capfulls about 3 times a week with my
above lighting. (Also using Trace and Potassium and Iron fertilizer).
Does taht sound right?
"George Pontis" wrote in message
t...
In article ,

says...
George Pontis wrote:
You do not require an automatic pH
monitor/controller. Instead you can set it up at some initial rate, say
1 bubble
every two seconds, then adjust up or down as needed to get to the level
you seek.
If you know your KH, then you can determine CO2 by measuring pH using
your
favorite test method. It may take a small adjustment once or twice a
day for three
days to establish your setting, but once done it will remain stable.


I find my that bubble rate varies depending on ambient temperature. The
higher the temperature, the lower the bubble rate. One day, I set my
needle valve for 2 BPS. Ambient temperature was 25 degrees C. The next
day the temperature rose to 30C. I got 1/2 BPS. I set the bubble rate
back to 2 BPS. The day after it went back down to 25C. The bubble rate
was now 4 BPS. This must be something to do with expansion of metal
parts or cheap CO2 valves. I'm not sure if this is everyone's
experience, but I have to use a pH controller to keep the pH stable. It
was just far too much stress without it.

Nikki


Hi Nikki,

A 4:1 change over a few degrees of temperature, that is quite sensitive.
And
understandable why you prefer the use of a pH probe and controller. One
day I will
have to get one to play with. But perhaps your unit is worse than typical
? The
constant-flow, open-loop system seems to be commonly used, and hardly
anyone could
live with that kind of variation.

The instructions that came with my Wilwaukee regulator said that one
should open
the needle valve so it is not limiting, then use the regulator pressure
adjustment
to set the flow rate. My unit that was not stable with that adjustment. I
found it
better to set the pressure to something that could be diplayed on the
gauge, say 5
psi, then adjust the needle valve for the desired flow. This has worked
really
well for me - it never needs further adjustment. I should note that I have
the
solenoid powered 24/7. If one were to plot CO2 over a 24 hr period, there
might be
a few tenths change; I have not watched it that carefully. But when I
check in the
mornings the pH is consistent and so is the bubble rate.

George



  #9   Report Post  
Old 31-07-2005, 12:02 AM
Daniel Morrow
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Mr. Zee" wrote in message
.net...
Well this is all very interesting and I must admit that once I do a bit of
research I'll go to CO2 injection way. BUT in the meantime (say 3-4
month's? ) Seachem's Excel seems easier, if it works. Does it?


Elaine says it does. Later!

I've got a
55 gallon tank, and I use about 2 capfulls about 3 times a week with my
above lighting. (Also using Trace and Potassium and Iron fertilizer).
Does taht sound right?
"George Pontis" wrote in message
t...
In article ,

says...
George Pontis wrote:
You do not require an automatic pH
monitor/controller. Instead you can set it up at some initial rate,

say
1 bubble
every two seconds, then adjust up or down as needed to get to the

level
you seek.
If you know your KH, then you can determine CO2 by measuring pH using
your
favorite test method. It may take a small adjustment once or twice a
day for three
days to establish your setting, but once done it will remain stable.

I find my that bubble rate varies depending on ambient temperature. The
higher the temperature, the lower the bubble rate. One day, I set my
needle valve for 2 BPS. Ambient temperature was 25 degrees C. The next
day the temperature rose to 30C. I got 1/2 BPS. I set the bubble rate
back to 2 BPS. The day after it went back down to 25C. The bubble rate
was now 4 BPS. This must be something to do with expansion of metal
parts or cheap CO2 valves. I'm not sure if this is everyone's
experience, but I have to use a pH controller to keep the pH stable. It
was just far too much stress without it.

Nikki


Hi Nikki,

A 4:1 change over a few degrees of temperature, that is quite sensitive.
And
understandable why you prefer the use of a pH probe and controller. One
day I will
have to get one to play with. But perhaps your unit is worse than

typical
? The
constant-flow, open-loop system seems to be commonly used, and hardly
anyone could
live with that kind of variation.

The instructions that came with my Wilwaukee regulator said that one
should open
the needle valve so it is not limiting, then use the regulator pressure
adjustment
to set the flow rate. My unit that was not stable with that adjustment.

I
found it
better to set the pressure to something that could be diplayed on the
gauge, say 5
psi, then adjust the needle valve for the desired flow. This has worked
really
well for me - it never needs further adjustment. I should note that I

have
the
solenoid powered 24/7. If one were to plot CO2 over a 24 hr period,

there
might be
a few tenths change; I have not watched it that carefully. But when I
check in the
mornings the pH is consistent and so is the bubble rate.

George





  #10   Report Post  
Old 31-07-2005, 04:31 AM
Elaine T
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mr. Zee wrote:
Well this is all very interesting and I must admit that once I do a bit of
research I'll go to CO2 injection way. BUT in the meantime (say 3-4
month's? ) Seachem's Excel seems easier, if it works. Does it? I've got a
55 gallon tank, and I use about 2 capfulls about 3 times a week with my
above lighting. (Also using Trace and Potassium and Iron fertilizer).
Does taht sound right?


I like Excel. Seachem claims it works to about 70% of CO2. Is your
tank low algae (so that algae eaters can easily clean the tank up) with
good plant growth? If so, it's working. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com


  #11   Report Post  
Old 01-08-2005, 03:20 PM
Mr. Zee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Elaine:

Thanks for all the info. (Thanks to the other group members too.) I
have a lot of alge on my plants. I bought a Clown Pelco thinking he would
take care of it but he just hangs out in the driftwood. So last week I
bought 2 1" Chinese Algae Eaters. They are busy little guys, cleaning thing
up. Are two enough for a 55 gallon? I'd like to buy a couple more but
don't want to starve them.

Also, I had bought a nice 12" long Ludwiga but after a few days it
started to lose all it leaves. I took it out, cut it back to a small 4"
strand or two and replanted it. I hadn't gotten the extra lighting when I
bought it so perhaps that's why it died? I have soft water, pH 6.7, 81F.

By the way, a few friends came over yesterday. Everyone said 'ohh ahh are
those REAL plants?' It's a nice feeling yes? So nice to have beautiful
green planst in the aquarium.



"Elaine T" wrote in message
...
Mr. Zee wrote:
Well this is all very interesting and I must admit that once I do a bit
of research I'll go to CO2 injection way. BUT in the meantime (say 3-4
month's? ) Seachem's Excel seems easier, if it works. Does it? I've got
a 55 gallon tank, and I use about 2 capfulls about 3 times a week with my
above lighting. (Also using Trace and Potassium and Iron fertilizer).
Does taht sound right?


I like Excel. Seachem claims it works to about 70% of CO2. Is your tank
low algae (so that algae eaters can easily clean the tank up) with good
plant growth? If so, it's working. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com



  #12   Report Post  
Old 01-08-2005, 06:39 PM
Ross Vandegrift
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On 2005-08-01, Mr. Zee wrote:
Also, I had bought a nice 12" long Ludwiga but after a few days it
started to lose all it leaves. I took it out, cut it back to a small 4"
strand or two and replanted it. I hadn't gotten the extra lighting when I
bought it so perhaps that's why it died? I have soft water, pH 6.7, 81F.


Did it lose *all* of its leaves or just the ones at the bottom? My
Luds pretty agressively shed their lower leaves as they grow higher. If
that's what you saw, it was probably just a normal growth pattern.

If it was all the leaves, that could be normal as well. Often times a
moving a plant is "stressful" to it - you'll see stunted growth/die-off
as it adjusts to its new environment.

By the way, a few friends came over yesterday. Everyone said 'ohh ahh are
those REAL plants?' It's a nice feeling yes? So nice to have beautiful
green planst in the aquarium.


To be honest, I'd be pretty nervous about 4.7 watts per gallon in a
55gal tank. That's an enormous amount of light. I'm not familiar with
the nutrients provided by the Seachem you're using, but keep a very
close eye on your nitrate, potassium, and phosphate levels until you
reach a good equilibrium. One day off kilter and I suspect you could
end up with a pretty massive algae attack.

Search through the archives for posts by Tom Barr and his comments
regarding fertilizing - they are spot on and will give you info you will
probably need sooner or later with guns like that.


--
Ross Vandegrift

"The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who
make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians
have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine
man in the bonds of Hell."
--St. Augustine, De Genesi ad Litteram, Book II, xviii, 37


  #13   Report Post  
Old 02-08-2005, 12:11 AM
Elaine T
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Mr. Zee wrote:
Hi Elaine:

Thanks for all the info. (Thanks to the other group members too.) I
have a lot of alge on my plants. I bought a Clown Pelco thinking he would
take care of it but he just hangs out in the driftwood. So last week I
bought 2 1" Chinese Algae Eaters. They are busy little guys, cleaning thing
up. Are two enough for a 55 gallon? I'd like to buy a couple more but
don't want to starve them.

Chinese algae eaters?!? You might want to read this - those are pretty
nasty fish when they grow up. http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/
I've found Ancistrus spp. to be better algae eaters than Peckoltia
spp. I also like Farlowella spp. and otocinclus.

When I had a planted 55, it was home to 1 Ancistrus, 1 Farlowella, 6
otocinclus, and 3 siamese algae eaters. You could add any of those fish
to your tank in preference to more CAE.

Also, I had bought a nice 12" long Ludwiga but after a few days it
started to lose all it leaves. I took it out, cut it back to a small 4"
strand or two and replanted it. I hadn't gotten the extra lighting when I
bought it so perhaps that's why it died? I have soft water, pH 6.7, 81F.

By the way, a few friends came over yesterday. Everyone said 'ohh ahh are
those REAL plants?' It's a nice feeling yes? So nice to have beautiful
green planst in the aquarium.


That is a lot of fun.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
  #14   Report Post  
Old 02-08-2005, 04:11 PM
Mr. Zee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I'll check out the website. My LFS guy is very knowable and assured me that
the two I have don't get very big. (That's why I stay away fm the Wal-Mart
type fish stores, so I can obtain good advise.)

I'll keep an idea on my phosphate and nitrate levels. Thanks!
"Elaine T" wrote in message
m...
Mr. Zee wrote:
Hi Elaine:

Thanks for all the info. (Thanks to the other group members too.)
I have a lot of alge on my plants. I bought a Clown Pelco thinking he
would take care of it but he just hangs out in the driftwood. So last
week I bought 2 1" Chinese Algae Eaters. They are busy little guys,
cleaning thing up. Are two enough for a 55 gallon? I'd like to buy a
couple more but don't want to starve them.

Chinese algae eaters?!? You might want to read this - those are pretty
nasty fish when they grow up. http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/
I've found Ancistrus spp. to be better algae eaters than Peckoltia spp. I
also like Farlowella spp. and otocinclus.

When I had a planted 55, it was home to 1 Ancistrus, 1 Farlowella, 6
otocinclus, and 3 siamese algae eaters. You could add any of those fish
to your tank in preference to more CAE.

Also, I had bought a nice 12" long Ludwiga but after a few days it
started to lose all it leaves. I took it out, cut it back to a small 4"
strand or two and replanted it. I hadn't gotten the extra lighting when I
bought it so perhaps that's why it died? I have soft water, pH 6.7, 81F.

By the way, a few friends came over yesterday. Everyone said 'ohh ahh
are those REAL plants?' It's a nice feeling yes? So nice to have
beautiful green planst in the aquarium.


That is a lot of fun.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com



  #15   Report Post  
Old 09-08-2005, 04:02 PM
Mr. Zee
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hi Elaine and the group:

I don't think I have a SAE, I have two Otocinclus Catfish. I'll get a
bristle-nosed tonight. The fellow above was right about 4.7 watts
/gallon! W/in three days I had serve alge all over my nice plants: clumpy
green stuff entangling my dwarf swords and hairgrass. Sooooo, back to
2.4/gallon. I finally ordered a CO2 setup fm ebay and will get a CO2 tank
when it comes in.

By the way for a warm water/acid 82F/6.5 low KH/DH tank which would
be better as background plants: Vallisneria or the Sagittaria species?
Thanks again!


Vallisneria americana or the
"Elaine T" wrote in message
m...
Mr. Zee wrote:
Hi Elaine:

Thanks for all the info. (Thanks to the other group members too.)
I have a lot of alge on my plants. I bought a Clown Pelco thinking he
would take care of it but he just hangs out in the driftwood. So last
week I bought 2 1" Chinese Algae Eaters. They are busy little guys,
cleaning thing up. Are two enough for a 55 gallon? I'd like to buy a
couple more but don't want to starve them.

Chinese algae eaters?!? You might want to read this - those are pretty
nasty fish when they grow up. http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/Algae-Eaters/
I've found Ancistrus spp. to be better algae eaters than Peckoltia spp. I
also like Farlowella spp. and otocinclus.

When I had a planted 55, it was home to 1 Ancistrus, 1 Farlowella, 6
otocinclus, and 3 siamese algae eaters. You could add any of those fish
to your tank in preference to more CAE.

Also, I had bought a nice 12" long Ludwiga but after a few days it
started to lose all it leaves. I took it out, cut it back to a small 4"
strand or two and replanted it. I hadn't gotten the extra lighting when I
bought it so perhaps that's why it died? I have soft water, pH 6.7, 81F.

By the way, a few friends came over yesterday. Everyone said 'ohh ahh
are those REAL plants?' It's a nice feeling yes? So nice to have
beautiful green planst in the aquarium.


That is a lot of fun.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com



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