#1   Report Post  
Old 13-09-2005, 11:52 AM
Neil Woodman
 
Posts: n/a
Default tank disaster

Hi,

If wonder if any of you guys could help me. I did my usual 30% water
change on Saturday night, I got in on sunday to find all of my tetras
swimming near the surface gasping for air, the only thing I had done
differently was increase the CO2 slightly. Then I noticed some bleeding
heart tetras were dead, and then I noticed some shrimp going a bit
strange darting up to the surface and back down again. Suddenly all the
fish started to die in front of my eyes! There was obviously no oxygen
in the water so I added a powerhead to create some surface agitation and
did a 50% water change. The tank has now gone really cloudy and I've
lost most of my tetras and shrimp, there are only some ottos, a 4
tetras, a rabble of shrimp and one ram which is hard as nails left
alive. So this morning I rushed to my local aquatic shop. He asked me if
the water had gone cloudy after I explained what happened and it had, so
he then said it was a breakdown in the filter which has caused all the
bacteria to go into the water, which had in turn suffocated all the
fish, he recommended doing a big water change which I had already done
and recommended I use some filter aid to clump together the particles to
filter them out faster, I cant remember exactly what he said but it was
along those lines. Can you guys explain what might have happened and
why? This has never happened to me before and I've been keeping fish for
a long time, to suddenly see them dying in front of my eyes has been a
harrowing experience.

I use an external filter and pressurised CO2, I dont know if that's
anything to do with it, the tank is heavily planted.

Thanks,

Neil

  #2   Report Post  
Old 13-09-2005, 01:38 PM
Nikki Casali
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Neil Woodman wrote:

Hi,

If wonder if any of you guys could help me. I did my usual 30% water
change on Saturday night, I got in on sunday to find all of my tetras
swimming near the surface gasping for air, the only thing I had done
differently was increase the CO2 slightly. Then I noticed some bleeding
heart tetras were dead, and then I noticed some shrimp going a bit
strange darting up to the surface and back down again. Suddenly all the
fish started to die in front of my eyes! There was obviously no oxygen
in the water so I added a powerhead to create some surface agitation and
did a 50% water change. The tank has now gone really cloudy and I've
lost most of my tetras and shrimp, there are only some ottos, a 4
tetras, a rabble of shrimp and one ram which is hard as nails left
alive. So this morning I rushed to my local aquatic shop. He asked me if
the water had gone cloudy after I explained what happened and it had, so
he then said it was a breakdown in the filter which has caused all the
bacteria to go into the water, which had in turn suffocated all the
fish, he recommended doing a big water change which I had already done
and recommended I use some filter aid to clump together the particles to
filter them out faster, I cant remember exactly what he said but it was
along those lines. Can you guys explain what might have happened and
why? This has never happened to me before and I've been keeping fish for
a long time, to suddenly see them dying in front of my eyes has been a
harrowing experience.

I use an external filter and pressurised CO2, I dont know if that's
anything to do with it, the tank is heavily planted.


I'm very sad about what has happened.

Do you have any idea what the CO2 level was or the pH? Is the change
water straight from the tap and do you allow the water to stand to allow
noxious gasses to dissipate? My tap water contains high amounts of CO2
etc. Why do you do large water changes?

A breakdown in the filter causes all the bacteria to go into the water?
I don't think so. The bacteria are already in the water. Did your filter
jam up? You didn't make this clear.

Nikki

  #3   Report Post  
Old 13-09-2005, 03:00 PM
Neil Woodman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nikki Casali wrote:

Neil Woodman wrote:

Hi,

If wonder if any of you guys could help me. I did my usual 30% water
change on Saturday night, I got in on sunday to find all of my tetras
swimming near the surface gasping for air, the only thing I had done
differently was increase the CO2 slightly. Then I noticed some
bleeding heart tetras were dead, and then I noticed some shrimp going
a bit strange darting up to the surface and back down again. Suddenly
all the fish started to die in front of my eyes! There was obviously
no oxygen in the water so I added a powerhead to create some surface
agitation and did a 50% water change. The tank has now gone really
cloudy and I've lost most of my tetras and shrimp, there are only
some ottos, a 4 tetras, a rabble of shrimp and one ram which is hard
as nails left alive. So this morning I rushed to my local aquatic
shop. He asked me if the water had gone cloudy after I explained what
happened and it had, so he then said it was a breakdown in the filter
which has caused all the bacteria to go into the water, which had in
turn suffocated all the fish, he recommended doing a big water change
which I had already done and recommended I use some filter aid to
clump together the particles to filter them out faster, I cant
remember exactly what he said but it was along those lines. Can you
guys explain what might have happened and why? This has never
happened to me before and I've been keeping fish for a long time, to
suddenly see them dying in front of my eyes has been a harrowing
experience.

I use an external filter and pressurised CO2, I dont know if that's
anything to do with it, the tank is heavily planted.



I'm very sad about what has happened.

Do you have any idea what the CO2 level was or the pH? Is the change
water straight from the tap and do you allow the water to stand to
allow noxious gasses to dissipate? My tap water contains high amounts
of CO2 etc. Why do you do large water changes?

A breakdown in the filter causes all the bacteria to go into the
water? I don't think so. The bacteria are already in the water. Did
your filter jam up? You didn't make this clear.

Nikki

Hi,

Thanks for that.

CO2 was about 1 bubble per second or so, ph was about 6.5. Although the
test kit I have doesn't really measure that accurately in terms of range
my ph indicator I have permanently setup showed nothing untoward. My tap
water has always been ok bar a high level of phosphate, which I use
rowaphos to remove, I'm thinking the rowaphos suddenly released all the
phosphate it had stored up due to it being totally saturated and used
up, I've heard that can happen.

There seems to be nothing wrong with the filter but the water has gone
really cloudy, I have 4 fish left which are still alive but my shrimp
are perched on top of the inside edge of the tank, literally out of the
water! They don't look too happy either.

I have always done large water changes as I do about 30% per week, is
this wrong?

Neil
  #4   Report Post  
Old 13-09-2005, 03:28 PM
Graham Ramsay
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Neil Woodman" wrote
There seems to be nothing wrong with the filter but the water has gone
really cloudy, I have 4 fish left which are still alive but my shrimp are
perched on top of the inside edge of the tank, literally out of the water!
They don't look too happy either.

I have always done large water changes as I do about 30% per week, is this
wrong?



It does sound like your filter has died off for some reason.
Do you have high nitrite or ammonia levels?
30% weekly is fine.

--
Graham Ramsay
Fair City Aquarist Society


  #5   Report Post  
Old 13-09-2005, 03:47 PM
Neil Woodman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Graham Ramsay wrote:

"Neil Woodman" wrote
There seems to be nothing wrong with the filter but the water has gone
really cloudy, I have 4 fish left which are still alive but my shrimp are
perched on top of the inside edge of the tank, literally out of the water!
They don't look too happy either.

I have always done large water changes as I do about 30% per week, is this
wrong?




It does sound like your filter has died off for some reason.
Do you have high nitrite or ammonia levels?
30% weekly is fine.

--
Graham Ramsay
Fair City Aquarist Society




What I think is that when I filled my filter cannister up, (its
external) I used fresh water from the tap which I did dechlorinate but
maybe that has killed off the bacteria in the filter and caused it to go
anerobic, that would explain the suddenly oxygen drop and the dead fish.
Normally I just tend to let water into it by the inlet pipe as there is
a syphon action going on with the external filter but I didn't do this
when I last did the water change.



  #6   Report Post  
Old 13-09-2005, 04:00 PM
Rocco Moretti
 
Posts: n/a
Default


CO2 was about 1 bubble per second or so, ph was about 6.5. Although the
test kit I have doesn't really measure that accurately in terms of range
my ph indicator I have permanently setup showed nothing untoward.


You said you increased CO2 - what was the pH before Saturday? (i.e. how
quickly did you change the CO2/pH?)

pH 6.5 too low to get much effective buffering from just KH - if you're
injecting CO2 by bubble count vs. pH controller, you might possibly have
gotten a big pH swing (especially when the plants stopped
photosynthesizing). I'm guessing in the dark, but a large, quick pH
swing could have killed off at least a portion of the bacteria in the
filter. The extra organics thus released could cause a bacterial bloom
of other, more pH tolerant bacteria, using up oxygen.

My tap
water has always been ok bar a high level of phosphate, which I use
rowaphos to remove, I'm thinking the rowaphos suddenly released all the
phosphate it had stored up due to it being totally saturated and used
up, I've heard that can happen.


So is the rowaphos actually in your tank? If so, a large pH change might
(I'm not familiar with the product) cause it to change it's phosphate
absorbing properties and release the phosphate. (Although I can't think
off the top of my head how a phosphate spike would deplete oxygen,
unless there was an algae bloom - was the tank white cloudy or green
cloudy?)
  #7   Report Post  
Old 13-09-2005, 05:31 PM
Nikki Casali
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Neil Woodman wrote:

Nikki Casali wrote:

Neil Woodman wrote:

Hi,

If wonder if any of you guys could help me. I did my usual 30% water
change on Saturday night, I got in on sunday to find all of my tetras
swimming near the surface gasping for air, the only thing I had done
differently was increase the CO2 slightly. Then I noticed some
bleeding heart tetras were dead, and then I noticed some shrimp going
a bit strange darting up to the surface and back down again. Suddenly
all the fish started to die in front of my eyes! There was obviously
no oxygen in the water so I added a powerhead to create some surface
agitation and did a 50% water change. The tank has now gone really
cloudy and I've lost most of my tetras and shrimp, there are only
some ottos, a 4 tetras, a rabble of shrimp and one ram which is hard
as nails left alive. So this morning I rushed to my local aquatic
shop. He asked me if the water had gone cloudy after I explained what
happened and it had, so he then said it was a breakdown in the filter
which has caused all the bacteria to go into the water, which had in
turn suffocated all the fish, he recommended doing a big water change
which I had already done and recommended I use some filter aid to
clump together the particles to filter them out faster, I cant
remember exactly what he said but it was along those lines. Can you
guys explain what might have happened and why? This has never
happened to me before and I've been keeping fish for a long time, to
suddenly see them dying in front of my eyes has been a harrowing
experience.

I use an external filter and pressurised CO2, I dont know if that's
anything to do with it, the tank is heavily planted.




I'm very sad about what has happened.

Do you have any idea what the CO2 level was or the pH? Is the change
water straight from the tap and do you allow the water to stand to
allow noxious gasses to dissipate? My tap water contains high amounts
of CO2 etc. Why do you do large water changes?

A breakdown in the filter causes all the bacteria to go into the
water? I don't think so. The bacteria are already in the water. Did
your filter jam up? You didn't make this clear.

Nikki

Hi,

Thanks for that.

CO2 was about 1 bubble per second or so, ph was about 6.5.


What are your KH and GH? What size is your tank? I presume you live in
the north of UK where water is softer? I live in London. A pH of 6.5 for
London water would indicate dangerous levels of CO2. I bubble 2 a
second. This is enough for my 330L tank to reach a pH of 7.25 from 8.1
with masses of plants.

Although the
test kit I have doesn't really measure that accurately in terms of range
my ph indicator I have permanently setup showed nothing untoward. My tap
water has always been ok bar a high level of phosphate, which I use
rowaphos to remove, I'm thinking the rowaphos suddenly released all the
phosphate it had stored up due to it being totally saturated and used
up, I've heard that can happen.


Rowaphos state that releasing all its contents is something it does not
or cannot do. I've used Rowaphos in the past with no trouble.

There seems to be nothing wrong with the filter but the water has gone
really cloudy, I have 4 fish left which are still alive but my shrimp
are perched on top of the inside edge of the tank, literally out of the
water! They don't look too happy either.


My shrimp hate water changes. They go berserk, especially if the water
has come from the copper hot water cylinder.

I have always done large water changes as I do about 30% per week, is
this wrong?


It really depends on the compatibility of your tap water with settled
tank water. My tap water comes out at 7.2 pH. My non-CO2 injected tank
stays at 8.1 pH. So if I'm making big changes to that tank I allow the
water to dissipate its CO2 by bubbling with an air stone until the pH is
closer.

Just a guess, but if your tap water contained a high level of CO2 and
you changed the CO2 bubble rate at the same time this combination could
have given your tank pH a kick to a dangerous lower level.

Regarding pouring dechlorinated tap water into your external filter. I'd
never do it. This could possibly have had the effect you see.

Nikki

  #8   Report Post  
Old 14-09-2005, 02:08 AM
Neil Woodman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Nikki Casali wrote:

Neil Woodman wrote:

Nikki Casali wrote:

Neil Woodman wrote:

Hi,

If wonder if any of you guys could help me. I did my usual 30%
water change on Saturday night, I got in on sunday to find all of
my tetras swimming near the surface gasping for air, the only thing
I had done differently was increase the CO2 slightly. Then I
noticed some bleeding heart tetras were dead, and then I noticed
some shrimp going a bit strange darting up to the surface and back
down again. Suddenly all the fish started to die in front of my
eyes! There was obviously no oxygen in the water so I added a
powerhead to create some surface agitation and did a 50% water
change. The tank has now gone really cloudy and I've lost most of
my tetras and shrimp, there are only some ottos, a 4 tetras, a
rabble of shrimp and one ram which is hard as nails left alive. So
this morning I rushed to my local aquatic shop. He asked me if the
water had gone cloudy after I explained what happened and it had,
so he then said it was a breakdown in the filter which has caused
all the bacteria to go into the water, which had in turn suffocated
all the fish, he recommended doing a big water change which I had
already done and recommended I use some filter aid to clump
together the particles to filter them out faster, I cant remember
exactly what he said but it was along those lines. Can you guys
explain what might have happened and why? This has never happened
to me before and I've been keeping fish for a long time, to
suddenly see them dying in front of my eyes has been a harrowing
experience.

I use an external filter and pressurised CO2, I dont know if that's
anything to do with it, the tank is heavily planted.




I'm very sad about what has happened.

Do you have any idea what the CO2 level was or the pH? Is the change
water straight from the tap and do you allow the water to stand to
allow noxious gasses to dissipate? My tap water contains high
amounts of CO2 etc. Why do you do large water changes?

A breakdown in the filter causes all the bacteria to go into the
water? I don't think so. The bacteria are already in the water. Did
your filter jam up? You didn't make this clear.

Nikki

Hi,

Thanks for that.

CO2 was about 1 bubble per second or so, ph was about 6.5.



What are your KH and GH? What size is your tank? I presume you live in
the north of UK where water is softer? I live in London. A pH of 6.5
for London water would indicate dangerous levels of CO2. I bubble 2 a
second. This is enough for my 330L tank to reach a pH of 7.25 from 8.1
with masses of plants.

Although the

test kit I have doesn't really measure that accurately in terms of
range my ph indicator I have permanently setup showed nothing
untoward. My tap water has always been ok bar a high level of
phosphate, which I use rowaphos to remove, I'm thinking the rowaphos
suddenly released all the phosphate it had stored up due to it being
totally saturated and used up, I've heard that can happen.



Rowaphos state that releasing all its contents is something it does
not or cannot do. I've used Rowaphos in the past with no trouble.

There seems to be nothing wrong with the filter but the water has
gone really cloudy, I have 4 fish left which are still alive but my
shrimp are perched on top of the inside edge of the tank, literally
out of the water! They don't look too happy either.



My shrimp hate water changes. They go berserk, especially if the water
has come from the copper hot water cylinder.

I have always done large water changes as I do about 30% per week, is
this wrong?



It really depends on the compatibility of your tap water with settled
tank water. My tap water comes out at 7.2 pH. My non-CO2 injected tank
stays at 8.1 pH. So if I'm making big changes to that tank I allow the
water to dissipate its CO2 by bubbling with an air stone until the pH
is closer.

Just a guess, but if your tap water contained a high level of CO2 and
you changed the CO2 bubble rate at the same time this combination
could have given your tank pH a kick to a dangerous lower level.

Regarding pouring dechlorinated tap water into your external filter.
I'd never do it. This could possibly have had the effect you see.

Nikki

It seems odd, its not as if I washed the filter media in tapwater which
I would never do but I wouldn't think that pouring a little
dechlorniated water into the filter would cause all the bacteria in it
to be destroyed, its really confusing I have never had a problem like
this before, even using pressurised CO2 increasing and decreasing it in
the past has never caused a problem at all. Thanks for your advice
anyway I will just have to wait and see what happens over the next few
days. How long do you think it will take to fix?
  #9   Report Post  
Old 14-09-2005, 03:34 AM
fish lover
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:47:12 +0100, Neil Woodman
wrote:

Graham Ramsay wrote:

"Neil Woodman" wrote
There seems to be nothing wrong with the filter but the water has gone
really cloudy, I have 4 fish left which are still alive but my shrimp are
perched on top of the inside edge of the tank, literally out of the water!
They don't look too happy either.

I have always done large water changes as I do about 30% per week, is this
wrong?




It does sound like your filter has died off for some reason.
Do you have high nitrite or ammonia levels?
30% weekly is fine.

--
Graham Ramsay
Fair City Aquarist Society




What I think is that when I filled my filter cannister up, (its
external) I used fresh water from the tap which I did dechlorinate but
maybe that has killed off the bacteria in the filter and caused it to go
anerobic, that would explain the suddenly oxygen drop and the dead fish.
Normally I just tend to let water into it by the inlet pipe as there is
a syphon action going on with the external filter but I didn't do this
when I last did the water change.


Filling the filter with tab water will kill everything in it. That for
sure will cause your tank water go bad. You need to add something to
help it cycle again. AND to put something to remove the amo right now!
Otherwise all you fish will die
  #10   Report Post  
Old 14-09-2005, 04:32 AM
Gail Futoran
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"fish lover" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 13 Sep 2005 14:47:12 +0100, Neil Woodman
wrote:

Graham Ramsay wrote:

"Neil Woodman" wrote
There seems to be nothing wrong with the filter but the water has gone
really cloudy, I have 4 fish left which are still alive but my shrimp
are
perched on top of the inside edge of the tank, literally out of the
water!
They don't look too happy either.

I have always done large water changes as I do about 30% per week, is
this
wrong?




It does sound like your filter has died off for some reason.
Do you have high nitrite or ammonia levels?
30% weekly is fine.

--
Graham Ramsay
Fair City Aquarist Society




What I think is that when I filled my filter cannister up, (its
external) I used fresh water from the tap which I did dechlorinate but
maybe that has killed off the bacteria in the filter and caused it to go
anerobic, that would explain the suddenly oxygen drop and the dead fish.
Normally I just tend to let water into it by the inlet pipe as there is
a syphon action going on with the external filter but I didn't do this
when I last did the water change.


Filling the filter with tab water will kill everything in it. That for
sure will cause your tank water go bad. You need to add something to
help it cycle again. AND to put something to remove the amo right now!
Otherwise all you fish will die


Why would *dechlorinated* tap water kill "everything"?
I use dechlorinated (actually dechloramineinated ...
probably not a word... g) tap water all the tap in my
tanks. What else would you fill the tanks up with when
topping off??

One possibility is that the OP's water system might
have changed from chlorine to chloramines. That
can be deadly to fish if you're only treating for
chlorine. It might be worth a call to his local
water utility.

Gail
Southcentral TX USA




  #11   Report Post  
Old 14-09-2005, 07:53 AM
Jake
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I clean my canister in water straight from the tap, have done so as long as
I have had aquariums and that is a long time! The water is chlorinated.
Doesn't take long for the bacteria to build up anyway in an established
tank. I don't refill it with chlorinated water though, I use water from the
aquarium to do that. I can't believe your problem has anything to do with
your filter.


  #12   Report Post  
Old 14-09-2005, 12:41 PM
Nikki Casali
 
Posts: n/a
Default

glenner003 wrote:
Neil Woodman" wrote in message


...

Hi,

If wonder if any of you guys could help me. I did my usual 30% water change


on Saturday night, I got in on sunday to find all of my tetras swimming
near the surface gasping for air, the only thing I had done differently was
increase the CO2 slightly. Then I noticed some bleeding heart tetras were
dead, and then I noticed some shrimp going a bit strange darting up to the

surface and back down again. Suddenly all the fish started to die in front


of my eyes! There was obviously no oxygen in the water so I added a
powerhead to create some surface agitation and did a 50% water change. The
tank has now gone really cloudy and I've lost most of my tetras and shrimp,
there are only some ottos, a 4 tetras, a rabble of shrimp and one ram which
is hard as nails left alive. So this morning I rushed to my local aquatic
shop. He asked me if the water had gone cloudy after I explained what
happened and it had, so he then said it was a breakdown in the filter which
has caused all the bacteria to go into the water, which had in turn
suffocated all the fish, he recommended doing a big water change which I had
already done and recommended I use some filter aid to clump together the
particles to filter them out faster, I cant remember exactly what he said
but it was along those lines. Can you guys explain what might have happened
and why? This has never happened to me before and I've been keeping fish
for a long time, to suddenly see them dying in front of my eyes has been a

harrowing experience.

I use an external filter and pressurised CO2, I dont know if that's


anything to do with it, the tank is heavily planted.

Thanks,

Neil




Hello Neil,

AFAIK An increase of CO2 implies a decrease of oxigen.


"Is It Possible to Overdose With CO2? Will My Fish Suffocate?

It is not likely that you will overdose the tank with a DIY system. It
just doesn't produce that much CO2. However, it is wise to monitor the
pH and the reactions of the fish for the first few days. If the pH drops
too low, you may not have enough buffering or you may be providing too
much CO2 for the size of your tank. The plants should produce enough
oxygen to provide plenty for your fish. However, if you should notice
them gasping at the surface, particularly in the morning, the oxygen may
have been depleted overnight and you will be wise to add an airstone at
night to aerate the water. This is rarely necessary, but do monitor for
it at first. Early morning is the best time to check for pH changes, as
it will be at its lowest at this time. Note: CO2 does NOT displace O2
and cause suffocation. The two concentrations are independent of one
another."

http://www.tropicalfishcentre.co.uk/Diyco2.htm

Nikki

  #13   Report Post  
Old 15-09-2005, 03:15 PM
Neil Woodman
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Neil Woodman wrote:

Hi,

If wonder if any of you guys could help me. I did my usual 30% water
change on Saturday night, I got in on sunday to find all of my tetras
swimming near the surface gasping for air, the only thing I had done
differently was increase the CO2 slightly. Then I noticed some
bleeding heart tetras were dead, and then I noticed some shrimp going
a bit strange darting up to the surface and back down again. Suddenly
all the fish started to die in front of my eyes! There was obviously
no oxygen in the water so I added a powerhead to create some surface
agitation and did a 50% water change. The tank has now gone really
cloudy and I've lost most of my tetras and shrimp, there are only some
ottos, a 4 tetras, a rabble of shrimp and one ram which is hard as
nails left alive. So this morning I rushed to my local aquatic shop.
He asked me if the water had gone cloudy after I explained what
happened and it had, so he then said it was a breakdown in the filter
which has caused all the bacteria to go into the water, which had in
turn suffocated all the fish, he recommended doing a big water change
which I had already done and recommended I use some filter aid to
clump together the particles to filter them out faster, I cant
remember exactly what he said but it was along those lines. Can you
guys explain what might have happened and why? This has never happened
to me before and I've been keeping fish for a long time, to suddenly
see them dying in front of my eyes has been a harrowing experience.

I use an external filter and pressurised CO2, I dont know if that's
anything to do with it, the tank is heavily planted.

Thanks,

Neil


Thanks for your help on this guys, seriously I am really quite amazed at
the response I've had and the helpful advice I;ve been given.

I added some cycle to the tank and now 2 days later its pretty clear
again and the fish seem good, a few shrimp have returned to their duties
already. I'm wondering if I should do a small water change now what do
you think?

Neil
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