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Old 03-10-2005, 09:37 PM
.D.E.
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems.

I recently redid my substrate last may and replaced it with the Black
Oceanic substrate. It looks great and haven't had many problems. I tried to
remove any Malaysian trumpet snail eggs from the plants. Now the snails are
back, quite a few. Usually 2 every inch of substrate. I have noticed within
the last month, black brush growing again and a green film on top of the
water. I do biweekly water changes now, aprox 30%. I did notice that the
nitrates are about 12.5, I added some nitrate remover today as well as added
co2 again at 2 bubbles per sec. Nitrites are ok, ph, 6.8, no phosphates, no
ammonia, GH 7 KH are about 3.

Is it possible that the amount of trumpet snails could be effecting the
nitrates? The fish are fine, japonica are well, and everyone is happy,
except me since the algae is becoming a real problem.

Any suggestions on how to remove them without chemicals?

Thanks.

--
Later.

D.E.

Have a better one.

To reply, simply remove:forgetthespam.



  #2   Report Post  
Old 02-06-2006, 12:41 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater
Mark Baldwin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems.

The best way to avoid algae is to make sure your plants have everything they
need to grow, then they will simple outcompete the algae for nutrients.

This isn't an easy thing to do since if your missing just one nutrient then
the plants will slow down and the algae increase.

Generally...

Phospate - 0.1ppm
Nitrate - 5ppm
CO2 - 20-35ppm
GH - 3 ( calcium/potassium/magnesium )

You say you have no phospate - this will limit plant growth and you will
probably see green algae on the glass and leaves.

If you have algae on the water surface it's a sure sign of overfeeding.

pH of 6.8 and KH of 3 means approx 14ppm of CO2 - the plants will grow
better if the CO2 is above 20ppm (just change your KH to 4)

Don't use any pH buffers!

--
Best regards
Mark

".D.E." wrote in message
news:[email protected]
I recently redid my substrate last may and replaced it with the Black
Oceanic substrate. It looks great and haven't had many problems. I tried to
remove any Malaysian trumpet snail eggs from the plants. Now the snails are
back, quite a few. Usually 2 every inch of substrate. I have noticed within
the last month, black brush growing again and a green film on top of the
water. I do biweekly water changes now, aprox 30%. I did notice that the
nitrates are about 12.5, I added some nitrate remover today as well as
added co2 again at 2 bubbles per sec. Nitrites are ok, ph, 6.8, no
phosphates, no ammonia, GH 7 KH are about 3.

Is it possible that the amount of trumpet snails could be effecting the
nitrates? The fish are fine, japonica are well, and everyone is happy,
except me since the algae is becoming a real problem.

Any suggestions on how to remove them without chemicals?

Thanks.

--
Later.

D.E.

Have a better one.

To reply, simply remove:forgetthespam.



  #3   Report Post  
Old 02-06-2006, 01:58 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater
Koi-Lo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Mark Baldwin" wrote in message
...
The best way to avoid algae is to make sure your plants have everything
they need to grow, then they will simple outcompete the algae for
nutrients.


I'm using Excel and Flourish micronutrients plus extra Potash and still have
an algae problem. :-( The black sooty algae has been replaced by a black
wiry, very ugly algae now. Neither the goldfish, the otos nor the 2 plecos
will eat it.

This isn't an easy thing to do since if your missing just one nutrient
then the plants will slow down and the algae increase.


How can anyone possibly know without extensive expensive testing what that
nutrient can be?

Generally...


Phospate - 0.1ppm


No test for that one.

Nitrate - 5ppm


Mine stays around 15 to 20ppm, as it comes from the tap.

CO2 - 20-35ppm


No test kit for this one either.

GH - 3 ( calcium/potassium/magnesium )


Over 300 and alkaline - 7.5 and above.

You say you have no phospate - this will limit plant growth and you will
probably see green algae on the glass and leaves.


We get the red-black sooty or wiry algae.

If you have algae on the water surface it's a sure sign of overfeeding.

pH of 6.8 and KH of 3 means approx 14ppm of CO2 - the plants will grow
better if the CO2 is above 20ppm (just change your KH to 4)

Don't use any pH buffers!

--
Best regards
Mark

--
Koi-Lo....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*





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Old 02-06-2006, 01:36 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater
Mark Baldwin
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

If you don't want algae then you need to monitor your tank parameters,
especially phospate and nitrate.

Read about the redfield ratio...
http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquar...dfield_eng.htm


You can estimate CO2 based on pH and KH...

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html

If you tap water has lots of nitrate then either use RO water or use a
nitrate sponge such as NitraZorb
http://www.aquariumpharm.com/en_gb/p...ame=Filtration

This stuff will soak up pretty much all your nitrate which won't do your
plants any good but you can use it 24hours before a water change to reduce
nitrate to zero, then when you add your new water you will add nitrate but
it will be diluted into the existing tank water.

--
Best regards
Mark

"Koi-Lo" None wrote in message ...
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Mark Baldwin" wrote in message
...
The best way to avoid algae is to make sure your plants have everything
they need to grow, then they will simple outcompete the algae for
nutrients.


I'm using Excel and Flourish micronutrients plus extra Potash and still
have an algae problem. :-( The black sooty algae has been replaced by a
black wiry, very ugly algae now. Neither the goldfish, the otos nor the 2
plecos will eat it.

This isn't an easy thing to do since if your missing just one nutrient
then the plants will slow down and the algae increase.


How can anyone possibly know without extensive expensive testing what that
nutrient can be?

Generally...


Phospate - 0.1ppm


No test for that one.

Nitrate - 5ppm


Mine stays around 15 to 20ppm, as it comes from the tap.

CO2 - 20-35ppm


No test kit for this one either.

GH - 3 ( calcium/potassium/magnesium )


Over 300 and alkaline - 7.5 and above.

You say you have no phospate - this will limit plant growth and you will
probably see green algae on the glass and leaves.


We get the red-black sooty or wiry algae.

If you have algae on the water surface it's a sure sign of overfeeding.

pH of 6.8 and KH of 3 means approx 14ppm of CO2 - the plants will grow
better if the CO2 is above 20ppm (just change your KH to 4)

Don't use any pH buffers!

--
Best regards
Mark

--
Koi-Lo....
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*







  #5   Report Post  
Old 03-06-2006, 09:04 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater
Koi-Lo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae


"Mark Baldwin" wrote in message
...
If you don't want algae then you need to monitor your tank parameters,
especially phospate and nitrate.

Read about the redfield ratio...
http://www.xs4all.nl/~buddendo/aquar...dfield_eng.htm

You can estimate CO2 based on pH and KH...

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/kh-ph-co2-chart.html

If you tap water has lots of nitrate then either use RO water or use a
nitrate sponge such as NitraZorb
http://www.aquariumpharm.com/en_gb/p...ame=Filtration

This stuff will soak up pretty much all your nitrate which won't do your
plants any good but you can use it 24hours before a water change to reduce
nitrate to zero, then when you add your new water you will add nitrate but
it will be diluted into the existing tank water.

=================
Thanks for the info. I was hoping I wouldn't need to spend a small fortune
for test kits, fertilizers and other paraphernalia just to grow some nice
plants in these display tanks..........
--
Koi-Lo....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*










  #6   Report Post  
Old 15-06-2006, 05:49 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater
Jolly Fisherman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0500, "Koi-Lo" None wrote:

Thanks for the info. I was hoping I wouldn't need to spend a small fortune
for test kits, fertilizers and other paraphernalia just to grow some nice
plants in these display tanks..........


Have you tried Barley Straw? It's supposed to be a cheap, safe
algaecide.

Cleaner fish & snails will only eat the shorter forms of black brush
algae. The longer forms react to CO2 and should detach after 2-3
months. If you aren't doing CO2 injection I'd reduce surface
agitation as much as possible and shorten the duration of light.
Rather than waiting for it to fall off and vacuum it up, I'd just get
rid of as much infested plant matter as possible. There are extreme
ways of killing & removing algae with chemical soaks. But the
infested plants are probably so sick it probably isn't going to work.

Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
certain plants?

From what I'm seeing a small fortune is almost inevitable as one goes
up the learning curve. I'm finding it MUCH more expensive than
fishkeeping. IMHO Aquatic gardening on a tight budget is like fish
keeping with a small tank. More precision is required, it's harder to
move forward, and mistakes have bigger consequences. Of course I'm
trying to learn on the cheap as well

I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe others
have reading recommendations that have helped them they can endorse?
  #7   Report Post  
Old 16-06-2006, 11:23 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Ki-L
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Jolly Fisherman" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0500, "Koi-Lo" None wrote:

Thanks for the info. I was hoping I wouldn't need to spend a small
fortune
for test kits, fertilizers and other paraphernalia just to grow some nice
plants in these display tanks..........


Have you tried Barley Straw? It's supposed to be a cheap, safe
algaecide.


No, I haven't tried it. They don't sell it locally and it's out of sight
online when they add S&H charges. I can't afford to try everything out
there. I spent quite a bit on all the Sechem Flourish products and the
effect wasn't long lasting. After the initial "boost," things went back to
where they were. The plecos and otos are helping but the "black" stuff is
still there.

Cleaner fish & snails will only eat the shorter forms of black brush
algae. The longer forms react to CO2 and should detach after 2-3
months.


The sooty algae stopped growing but by no means did it fall off or turn
white as I expected it to do. The plecs and otos removed most if it. Then
it was replaced by this black wiry looking stuff. Meanwhile the plants are
looking pooped again. The Amazon swords have stopped growing and the leaves
are getting narrower and smaller. Only the vals are really thriving. I do
add extra potassium but it makes no difference.

If you aren't doing CO2 injection I'd reduce surface
agitation as much as possible and shorten the duration of light.
Rather than waiting for it to fall off and vacuum it up, I'd just get
rid of as much infested plant matter as possible. There are extreme
ways of killing & removing algae with chemical soaks. But the
infested plants are probably so sick it probably isn't going to work.


I use Flourish Excel.

Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
certain plants?


I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
them. This is the busiest time of the year here.

From what I'm seeing a small fortune is almost inevitable as one goes
up the learning curve. I'm finding it MUCH more expensive than
fishkeeping. IMHO Aquatic gardening on a tight budget is like fish
keeping with a small tank. More precision is required, it's harder to
move forward, and mistakes have bigger consequences. Of course I'm
trying to learn on the cheap as well


I know what you mean. :-)) I may just give up and keep those that thrive
without all the expensive supplements - the vals, hornwart, anubia, elodia,
Java moss and a few slow-growing old crypts I've had for many years. I
suppose I just wanted to see some NEW or different plants in the tanks.

I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe others
have reading recommendations that have helped them they can endorse?

--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*




  #8   Report Post  
Old 17-06-2006, 12:56 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Ki-L
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:23:02 -0500, Ki-L 1[email protected]1. wrote:

*Note: There are five "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Jolly Fisherman" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 15:04:53 -0500, "Koi-Lo" None wrote:

Thanks for the info. I was hoping I wouldn't need to spend a small
fortune
for test kits, fertilizers and other paraphernalia just to grow some nice
plants in these display tanks..........


I am a cheap son of a bitch when it comes to buying stuff. If I can;t
shop lift it or get Randy to rip it off, I do without.

Have you tried Barley Straw? It's supposed to be a cheap, safe
algaecide.


No, randy keeps easting it as he is a mushroom and mushrooms like
straw bedding.
No, I haven't tried it. They don't sell it locally and it's out of sight
online when they add S&H charges.


Like I said I am a ****ing cheap son of a bitch.
I can't afford to try everything out
there.

No time to ploay with junk I have usenet groups to destroy
I spent quite a bit on all the Sechem Flourish products and the
effect wasn't long lasting.


Guess I should not have water it down. after all like I said I am a
cheap SOB.
After the initial "boost," things went back to
where they were. The plecos and otos are helping but the "black" stuff is
still there.


Only thing else in this area thats black is my well,mmmmmm I just as
soon not divulge that ****up.
Cleaner fish & snails will only eat the shorter forms of black brush
algae. The longer forms react to CO2 and should detach after 2-3
months.


I do not have 2 or 3 months to fool around. I may try pool chlorinator
tomorrow

The sooty algae stopped growing but by no means did it fall off or turn
white as I expected it to do.


I guess I shoud not have given the fish marajuana to eat inpoace of
veggies, huh?

The plecs and otos removed most if it. Then
it was replaced by this black wiry looking stuff. Meanwhile the plants are
looking pooped again. The Amazon swords have stopped growing and the leaves
are getting narrower and smaller. Only the vals are really thriving. I do
add extra potassium but it makes no difference.

I think I may pull those ploants and feed em to RAndy tonight for a
salad. He is stupid and will not know it from Kale

If you aren't doing CO2 injection I'd reduce surface


Only think I inject is heroin, can;t you tell........
agitation as much as possible and shorten the duration of light.

Only agitatin I do is nthe usenet groups
Rather than waiting for it to fall off and vacuum it up, I'd just get
rid of as much infested plant matter as possible. There are extreme
ways of killing & removing algae with chemical soaks. But the
infested plants are probably so sick it probably isn't going to work.

Like I said, I'll pull it all and feed it to Randy

I use Flourish Excel.

I use Trojans myself unless of course I give oral then I just
swallow...

Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
certain plants?

Guess we need to stop using the tanks for a toilet then.....

I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
them. This is the busiest time of the year here.

I have too much to do with keeping the usenet in turmoil than fool
with these stupid plants.


From what I'm seeing a small fortune is almost inevitable as one goes
up the learning curve. I'm finding it MUCH more expensive than
fishkeeping.


Because I am such a dumbass

IMHO Aquatic gardening on a tight budget is like fish
keeping with a small tank. More precision is required, it's harder to
move forward, and mistakes have bigger consequences. Of course I'm
trying to learn on the cheap as well

I am just to stupid to comprehend all this crap

I know what you mean. :-)) I may just give up and keep those that thrive
without all the expensive supplements - the vals, hornwart, anubia, elodia,
Java moss and a few slow-growing old crypts I've had for many years. I
suppose I just wanted to see some NEW or different plants in the tanks.


I need to quite the crypts and jion the bloods like Randy said we
should

I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe others
have reading recommendations that have helped them they can endorse?

I just have to find someone to read it to me now as I am one
illiterate asshole. Look that word up in a dictionary and yu can see
my picture next to it, and if yuuy want to see what Randy looks like
look up the word Moron. or mushroom.


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

  #9   Report Post  
Old 17-06-2006, 02:24 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Jolly Fisherman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:23:02 -0500, Ki-L 1[email protected]1. wrote:

snip
Have you tried Barley Straw? It's supposed to be a cheap, safe
algaecide.


No, I haven't tried it. They don't sell it locally and it's out of sight
online when they add S&H charges. I can't afford to try everything out
there. I spent quite a bit on all the Sechem Flourish products and the
effect wasn't long lasting. After the initial "boost," things went back to
where they were. The plecos and otos are helping but the "black" stuff is
still there.


I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
(different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping
and handling of either a bale or the extract makes it absurd unless
you are already ordering other things at the time.

Cleaner fish & snails will only eat the shorter forms of black brush
algae. The longer forms react to CO2 and should detach after 2-3
months.


The sooty algae stopped growing but by no means did it fall off or turn
white as I expected it to do. The plecs and otos removed most if it. Then
it was replaced by this black wiry looking stuff. Meanwhile the plants are
looking pooped again. The Amazon swords have stopped growing and the leaves
are getting narrower and smaller. Only the vals are really thriving. I do
add extra potassium but it makes no difference.


It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
(more likely).

wish I was more of an expert here. I'm telling you mostly what I've
read in books. I've had a similar infestation. It stopped by
adjusting light and increasing nutrients. But the old algae has not
yet fallen off. Since there's a lot of new, good growth, and I've
been wanting to revamp the aquascape anyway, I'm just going to rip out
and replant.

If you aren't doing CO2 injection I'd reduce surface
agitation as much as possible and shorten the duration of light.
Rather than waiting for it to fall off and vacuum it up, I'd just get
rid of as much infested plant matter as possible. There are extreme
ways of killing & removing algae with chemical soaks. But the
infested plants are probably so sick it probably isn't going to work.


I use Flourish Excel.


I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
At least I've been reading conflicting things.

Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
certain plants?


I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
them. This is the busiest time of the year here.


Isn't Murphy's law a bitch?

From what I'm seeing a small fortune is almost inevitable as one goes
up the learning curve. I'm finding it MUCH more expensive than
fishkeeping. IMHO Aquatic gardening on a tight budget is like fish
keeping with a small tank. More precision is required, it's harder to
move forward, and mistakes have bigger consequences. Of course I'm
trying to learn on the cheap as well


I know what you mean. :-)) I may just give up and keep those that thrive
without all the expensive supplements - the vals, hornwart, anubia, elodia,
Java moss and a few slow-growing old crypts I've had for many years. I
suppose I just wanted to see some NEW or different plants in the tanks.


sounds like you had a good system. Maybe if you haven't given up on
experimenting, a tank with mostly tried and true successful plants
adding just a few new experimental plants might work better? Even if
the experiments are having a rough time there are enough healthy
plants to out compete algae. It may give you more leeway to either
adjust conditions or decide it's not going to work/worth the effort.

I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe others
have reading recommendations that have helped them they can endorse?

  #10   Report Post  
Old 17-06-2006, 02:52 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Ki-L
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

Jolly wrote:

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:23:02 -0500, Ki-L 1[email protected]1. wrote:

snip
Have you tried Barley Straw? It's supposed to be a cheap, safe
algaecide.


No, I haven't tried it. They don't sell it locally and it's out of sight
online when they add S&H charges. I can't afford to try everything out
there. I spent quite a bit on all the Sechem Flourish products and the
effect wasn't long lasting. After the initial "boost," things went back to
where they were. The plecos and otos are helping but the "black" stuff is
still there.


I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
(different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping
and handling of either a bale or the extract makes it absurd unless
you are already ordering other things at the time.


Well, I don't know about all of that. I'm pretty much a stupid ****
who doesn't know a whole lot.


Cleaner fish & snails will only eat the shorter forms of black brush
algae. The longer forms react to CO2 and should detach after 2-3
months.


The sooty algae stopped growing but by no means did it fall off or turn
white as I expected it to do. The plecs and otos removed most if it. Then
it was replaced by this black wiry looking stuff. Meanwhile the plants are
looking pooped again. The Amazon swords have stopped growing and the leaves
are getting narrower and smaller. Only the vals are really thriving. I do
add extra potassium but it makes no difference.


It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
(more likely).


Choking? Are you threatening me? I have big dogs, you know.


wish I was more of an expert here. I'm telling you mostly what I've
read in books. I've had a similar infestation. It stopped by
adjusting light and increasing nutrients. But the old algae has not
yet fallen off. Since there's a lot of new, good growth, and I've
been wanting to revamp the aquascape anyway, I'm just going to rip out
and replant.


Rip out! I have notified Sgt. Pace. STALKER!


If you aren't doing CO2 injection I'd reduce surface
agitation as much as possible and shorten the duration of light.
Rather than waiting for it to fall off and vacuum it up, I'd just get
rid of as much infested plant matter as possible. There are extreme
ways of killing & removing algae with chemical soaks. But the
infested plants are probably so sick it probably isn't going to work.


I use Flourish Excel.


I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
At least I've been reading conflicting things.


Are you a completely stupid ****er, or what?


Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
certain plants?


I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
them. This is the busiest time of the year here.


Isn't Murphy's law a bitch?


YOU ARE A BITCH! I don't appreciate your goddamned profanity,
cocksucker.


From what I'm seeing a small fortune is almost inevitable as one goes
up the learning curve. I'm finding it MUCH more expensive than
fishkeeping. IMHO Aquatic gardening on a tight budget is like fish
keeping with a small tank. More precision is required, it's harder to
move forward, and mistakes have bigger consequences. Of course I'm
trying to learn on the cheap as well


I know what you mean. :-)) I may just give up and keep those that thrive
without all the expensive supplements - the vals, hornwart, anubia, elodia,
Java moss and a few slow-growing old crypts I've had for many years. I
suppose I just wanted to see some NEW or different plants in the tanks.


sounds like you had a good system. Maybe if you haven't given up on
experimenting, a tank with mostly tried and true successful plants
adding just a few new experimental plants might work better? Even if
the experiments are having a rough time there are enough healthy
plants to out compete algae. It may give you more leeway to either
adjust conditions or decide it's not going to work/worth the effort.


You aren't worth the effort, so just **** off, asshole.


I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe others
have reading recommendations that have helped them they can endorse?



--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
I do not post from Earthlink.net
All rude and/or obscene messages posted in my
name are by my impersonator.
~~~~ ((((* ~~~ {{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*}


  #11   Report Post  
Old 17-06-2006, 03:08 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Ki-L
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~
"Jolly Fisherman" wrote in message
...

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 17:23:02 -0500, Ki-L 1[email protected]1. wrote:
No, I haven't tried it. They don't sell it locally and it's out of sight
online when they add S&H charges. I can't afford to try everything out
there. I spent quite a bit on all the Sechem Flourish products and the
effect wasn't long lasting. After the initial "boost," things went back
to
where they were. The plecos and otos are helping but the "black" stuff is
still there.


I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
(different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping
and handling of either a bale or the extract makes it absurd unless
you are already ordering other things at the time.


It's just not worth the expense. I tried what was suggested here and that
was enough expense for plants. :-) The plants that were doing well before
all these supplements are still doing well, in fact have improved somewhat
but all the new plants either failed or are failing despite the Seachem
additives (micro-nutrients, Excel, iron etc) and extra light fixtures on the
tanks.

The sooty algae stopped growing but by no means did it fall off or turn
white as I expected it to do. The plecs and otos removed most if it.
Then
it was replaced by this black wiry looking stuff. Meanwhile the plants
are
looking pooped again. The Amazon swords have stopped growing and the
leaves
are getting narrower and smaller. Only the vals are really thriving. I
do
add extra potassium but it makes no difference.


It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
(more likely).


Well there is no way I can physically handle more vacuuming and partial
water changes. I've improved the lighting and all the supplements plus
bought the plecos and otos. I feel there isn't anything more I can do at
this time. I took down a 10g tank this week and hope to eliminate another
within a month. I also have two ponds out front and large 150g to 680g
tanks (above ground pools) of fish out back. I'm starting to feel
overwhelmed.... it's getting past being a hobby if you know what I mean.
:-) If I don't cut back somewhere I'll be needing to hire a day laborer
soon.

I use Flourish Excel.


I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
At least I've been reading conflicting things.


It's probably not but did perk up the plants, especially those that were
doing ok to start with. Or maybe it was the micronutrients that made them a
darker green. The frustrating thing is I ordered more of these products but
then the effects wore off. I added extra potassium but that had no effect
either. My sags are about dead and the Amazon swords look pretty shabby.

Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
certain plants?


I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
them. This is the busiest time of the year here.


Isn't Murphy's law a bitch?


YES!!!! :-D LOL!

I know what you mean. :-)) I may just give up and keep those that thrive
without all the expensive supplements - the vals, hornwart, anubia,
elodia,
Java moss and a few slow-growing old crypts I've had for many years. I
suppose I just wanted to see some NEW or different plants in the tanks.


sounds like you had a good system. Maybe if you haven't given up on
experimenting, a tank with mostly tried and true successful plants
adding just a few new experimental plants might work better?


That's kind of what I did. I added some "new" plants to cycled tanks that
were set up about 3 months. That was last winter. The plants in these new
setups (actually the tanks had been in an outbuilding for a few years) had
plants from a few established 10gs to get them started off. Then I bough
some new and different plants to experiment with for a change-of-scenery.
Shortly afterward the black sooty algae reared it's ugly head and from there
it's history. Expensive supplements, Excel, serious gravel vacuuming, water
changes and more water changes, more lighting..... Oddly the water wisteria
is thriving in a 10g and has wasted away in the 55s. A small ASword is
doing ok in a 10g but the ones in the 55s will be gone soon I'm sure.

Even if
the experiments are having a rough time there are enough healthy
plants to out compete algae. It may give you more leeway to either
adjust conditions or decide it's not going to work/worth the effort.


Some that are failing are not covered in algae. Since I stopped feeding the
plecs the algae tabs they did remove some of the wiry algae and this evening
I noticed the plants are "cleaner" if that's the word that fits. After all
is said and done I think I'll stick with the "tried and true" as you call
them. :-)

--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*




  #12   Report Post  
Old 17-06-2006, 03:48 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
dc
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

Jolly Fisherman wrote in
:

I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
(different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping


We sell Barley & Peat Extract and it is right up front near the cash on
display--it is pond season after all.



It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
(more likely).


The alga doesn't actually "react to CO2," it just gives your plants the
edge in competing for the available nutrients.



I use Flourish Excel.


I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
At least I've been reading conflicting things.


Seachem's Flourish Excel is not carbon dioxide; it is an organic carbon
compound (primarily polycycloglutaracetal) which serves the same
function for plants. It skips an intermediate step filled by CO2 in the
process of photosynthesis to provide plants what they need to produce
long chain carbon compounds. When you use Excel, plants don't need to
use CO2 to photosynthesize.



I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe
others have reading recommendations that have helped them they can
endorse?


This is a good book--I sold a copy to a customer today, but if it is the
one I am thinking of it mainly tackles problems with marine algae.
While the conditions for avoiding algae in both situations are very
similar, there are some options available to you in fresh that are not
in salt and vice versa.

  #13   Report Post  
Old 17-06-2006, 04:14 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Ki-L
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

wrote:

Jolly Fisherman wrote in
:

I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
(different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping


We sell Barley & Peat Extract and it is right up front near the cash on
display--it is pond season after all.


****ing liar. You're on welfare just like me.




It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
(more likely).


The alga doesn't actually "react to CO2," it just gives your plants the
edge in competing for the available nutrients.


How ****ing stupid are you anyway? Idiot.

SNIP boring redundant post


--
Koi-Lo....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
I do not post from Earthlink.net
All rude and/or obscene messages posted in my
name are by my impersonator.
~~~~ ((((* ~~~ {{{{( ~~~~ }((((({*}
  #14   Report Post  
Old 19-06-2006, 07:39 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Jolly Fisherman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 21:48:04 -0500, dc wrote:

Jolly Fisherman wrote in
:

I've only seen the extract in 1 or 2 aquarium specialty shops locally
(different state of course) and it's out of sight. True the shipping


We sell Barley & Peat Extract and it is right up front near the cash on
display--it is pond season after all.


Where is your shop?

It might take some more time to fall off, then again conditions might
still be such that it is still surviving well and choking the plants
(more likely).


The alga doesn't actually "react to CO2," it just gives your plants the
edge in competing for the available nutrients.


What you're saying makes sense as that's how it generally works.
Actually I was almost directly quoting the Baensch Aquarium Atlas vol
2 under "Black Brush Algae." They stressed the importance of CO2 for
control of Black Brush Algae but not other types. So it seemed to me
like there was more to CO2 than just helping the plants to grow & out
compete the algae. But I may be putting too much weight on poor
wording in the book.

I use Flourish Excel.


I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
At least I've been reading conflicting things.


Seachem's Flourish Excel is not carbon dioxide; it is an organic carbon
compound (primarily polycycloglutaracetal) which serves the same
function for plants. It skips an intermediate step filled by CO2 in the
process of photosynthesis to provide plants what they need to produce
long chain carbon compounds. When you use Excel, plants don't need to
use CO2 to photosynthesize.


Yes they are supposed to achieve the same thing but AFAIk they are not
really exact functional equivalents. AFAIK Polycycloglutaracetal is a
proprietary compound that is claimed to be similar but not identical
to natural Photosynthetic intermediates. I don't think it's well
known what exactly Polycycloglutaracetal is or even if it actually is,
in fact, directly taken up by the plants or if there is a more
indirect fertilization process at work. Even by Seachem's admission
"CO2 by itself will give you quantitatively more growth than Excel by
itself."

I just ordered "Algae: A problem Solver Guide" - Sprung. Maybe
others have reading recommendations that have helped them they can
endorse?


This is a good book--I sold a copy to a customer today, but if it is the
one I am thinking of it mainly tackles problems with marine algae.
While the conditions for avoiding algae in both situations are very
similar, there are some options available to you in fresh that are not
in salt and vice versa.


Just got it in yesterday. I'm disappointed that it indeed mostly
deals with marine issues. An OK read anyway.
  #15   Report Post  
Old 19-06-2006, 11:04 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc
Jolly Fisherman
 
Posts: n/a
Default Black Brush and green algae problems - wire algae

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 21:08:06 -0500, Ki-L 1[email protected]1. wrote:

snip
but all the new plants either failed or are failing despite the Seachem
additives (micro-nutrients, Excel, iron etc) and extra light fixtures on the
tanks.


Perhaps its too much light?

snip

Well there is no way I can physically handle more vacuuming and partial
water changes.


I'm not suggesting that.

I've improved the lighting and all the supplements plus
bought the plecos and otos. I feel there isn't anything more I can do at
this time.


It still seems the plants aren't getting exactly what they need-
missing nutrients (despite best efforts), too much light, etc. Are
the plants showing particular deficiencies or calcification?

snip

I use Flourish Excel.


I'm not 100% sure Flourish is truly equivalent to CO2 fertilization.
At least I've been reading conflicting things.


It's probably not but did perk up the plants, especially those that were
doing ok to start with. Or maybe it was the micronutrients that made them a
darker green. The frustrating thing is I ordered more of these products but
then the effects wore off. I added extra potassium but that had no effect
either. My sags are about dead and the Amazon swords look pretty shabby.


I believe the main ingredient of Excel is Polycycloglutaracetal an
isomeric form of glutaraldehyde, a very powerful disinfectant. Seachem
claims it is less reactive and more easily utilized by plants as a
carbon source. However one wonders if it has some algaecidal
properties. It is dangerous to aquatic life if overdosed. Frankly
I'm not excited about even handling water that has been treated with
Excel.

The iron in flourish is bound to gluconate, a carbohydrate. Seachem
claims this is an additional carbon source. It would seem it is also
accessible to bacteria and converted to sugars & CO2.

Basically these types of nutrients are beneficial to plants, but it's
easy to miss key nutrients or for them no not be as effective or
exactly as advertised IMHO.

Maybe slower release substrate fertilization may be of help for
certain plants?

I just don't have the time and energy to tear these two 55s down and re-do
them. This is the busiest time of the year here.


Take a look at:
http://www.plantguild.com/html/spot_fertilization.html
http://www.plantguild.com/html/subst...etrofiter.html

snip

That's kind of what I did. I added some "new" plants to cycled tanks that
were set up about 3 months. That was last winter. The plants in these new
setups (actually the tanks had been in an outbuilding for a few years) had
plants from a few established 10gs to get them started off. Then I bough
some new and different plants to experiment with for a change-of-scenery.
Shortly afterward the black sooty algae reared it's ugly head and from there
it's history.


These were already cycled tanks (without plants). Perhaps biobugs are
out competing the plants as well.

Expensive supplements, Excel, serious gravel vacuuming, water
changes and more water changes, more lighting..... Oddly the water wisteria
is thriving in a 10g and has wasted away in the 55s. A small ASword is
doing ok in a 10g but the ones in the 55s will be gone soon I'm sure.


It might be damaged by such strong light with no real CO2.

Even if
the experiments are having a rough time there are enough healthy
plants to out compete algae. It may give you more leeway to either
adjust conditions or decide it's not going to work/worth the effort.


Some that are failing are not covered in algae. Since I stopped feeding the
plecs the algae tabs they did remove some of the wiry algae and this evening
I noticed the plants are "cleaner" if that's the word that fits. After all
is said and done I think I'll stick with the "tried and true" as you call
them. :-)


_how_ they are failing might give you useful information- if you still
care.


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