I'm really hoping some of you out there can help me as I'm
completely stumped.

I have a 180G planted Freshwater community tank that is plagued by a
progressively worse white cloudiness to the water. I have read that
there are two causes to this:

1. Overfeeding (I feed my fish once a day and they eat everything
within less than 2 minutes)
2. Unsettled bacteria (I'm not sure I completely understand this
cause though)

Here are my tank specs:

1. 180 gallons
2. 4x96 Watt 6700K lighting 12-13 hours per day
3. CO2 injection usually around 25ppm
4. PH 8.0 (when CO2 injection is not on)
5. zero ammonia and nitrites
6. 2x Rena XP3 Canister filters and 1 Emperor 400 HOB filter.
7. Fertilizers are a potassium/Iron fert and Plantex CSM+B once a
week. I've dialed back on this too to see if it has any effect.
8. Eco-Complete substrate

Plants:
2 amazon sword plants
1 melon sword plant
1 crytpocoryn
6-8 Ludwigia (Red variety and leaves are all nice and red)
8 Corkscrew Vallisneria

Fish:
Total of about 58 small community fish comprised of 3 different
tetras, zebra danios, red tail shark, swordtails, a couple of
mollies, 4 plecos, kuhli loaches, clown loaches and a few ghost
shrimp.

I've cleaned out my filters by rinsing out the sponge portion of the
Rena XP3 filters to remove any heavy detritus, and replaced micro
filter pads.
I added the HOB filter for additional filtration and to add carbon
to the filtration.
I dialed back on food but I'm scared to use any less at this point.
Frequent water changes, about 50-75% each week.

What is more frustrating is that I have a little 2.5 Gallon Betta
tank that has 1 ludwegia and 2 corskrew plants in it with a single
betta fish and that water remains perfectly clear except for some
minor algae buildup.

I did receive some advice from someone that suggested that it might be
caused by plants that have died off and could be causing an ammonia
spike and that I should remove any decaying plant matter and gently
vacuum the substrate.

I typically do this during each water change and after the water change
the water will be clear for about a day or two then get progressively
more cloudy with each day.

Any advice is greatly appreciated as I just don't know how to figure
out what's causing the problem.

With Great Thanks,
Kevin

Real quick:

You are changing a lot of water. Can you cut that back to like 25% per
week? I would never change 50-75% at a time unless I had serious
problems. Also do you clean/change your filter every time you clean the
tank? I wouldn't. Let the brown slimey stuff build up in the filter(s)
until it restricts flow. If you get a lot of debris in the filters,
brush it off into a trash can once a week if you must...... Otherwise
lightly clean the media just enough to regain flow.

I HAVE changed more than 50% water before and on occasion I got white
cloudy water for several days.

Just an idea.
http://www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

You are changing a lot of water. Can you cut that back to like 25% per
week? I would never change 50-75% at a time unless I had serious
problems. Also do you clean/change your filter every time you clean the

tank? I wouldn't. Let the brown slimey stuff build up in the filter(s)
until it restricts flow. If you get a lot of debris in the filters,
brush it off into a trash can once a week if you must...... Otherwise
lightly clean the media just enough to regain flow.

I change that amount of water because the cloudiness gets progressively
worse if I leave it alone. I would like to change less, believe me :-)
I try to leave the filters alone and clean the sponge media about once
a month. I cleaned them recently in an effort to try and correct this
ongoing problem.

Same here. To original poster - also try cleaning the biological filter
media (sponges/etc.) in tank waste water freshly removed from the tank
- not
under tap water. Tap water has chlorine/chloramines and is awfully hard
to
get the temperature just right to not kill off the good bacteria in the

sponges/etc.. Since changing to tank waste water my tank has been
crystal
clear - even the silicate (diatoms) on the back and sides' glass is
going
away significantly, the diatoms were a hold over a year or two ago
around
the time started the tank and I am amazed it is finally going away.
Good
luck and later!

I appreciate both of the suggestions, I'll give it a try and see if
that helps. I did clean the sponge media in tap water and then added
dechlorinator directly to the filter to remove any excess
chorline/chloramines. However, per Spiral_72's advice, it sounds like I
should hold off on doing any additional cleaning of the sponge media.

Any idea what is causing the cloudiness though? Is it that I'm
dislodging bacteria into my tank and it has no where to attach itself
to?

One last thing I failed to mention is that the tubing to and from my
filters was caked with crud until recently. At first I thought maybe
the crud in the tubing (and it was thick) was causing the cloudy water,
but I flushed that out (using aquarium water) and then allowed the
filters to collect the stuff over the next 48 hours. After that is when
I cleaned the sponge media thoroughly (in tap water).

Thanks again for the advice!
Kevin

Mid posted.


"spiral_72" wrote in message
oups.com...
Real quick:

You are changing a lot of water. Can you cut that back to like 25% per
week? I would never change 50-75% at a time unless I had serious
problems. Also do you clean/change your filter every time you clean the
tank? I wouldn't. Let the brown slimey stuff build up in the filter(s)
until it restricts flow. If you get a lot of debris in the filters,
brush it off into a trash can once a week if you must...... Otherwise
lightly clean the media just enough to regain flow.

I HAVE changed more than 50% water before and on occasion I got white
cloudy water for several days.

Same here. To original poster - also try cleaning the biological filter
media (sponges/etc.) in tank waste water freshly removed from the tank - not
under tap water. Tap water has chlorine/chloramines and is awfully hard to
get the temperature just right to not kill off the good bacteria in the
sponges/etc.. Since changing to tank waste water my tank has been crystal
clear - even the silicate (diatoms) on the back and sides' glass is going
away significantly, the diatoms were a hold over a year or two ago around
the time started the tank and I am amazed it is finally going away. Good
luck and later!



Just an idea.
http://www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

Bottom posted.


"KStringer" wrote in message
oups.com...

Any idea what is causing the cloudiness though? Is it that I'm
dislodging bacteria into my tank and it has no where to attach itself
to?

One last thing I failed to mention is that the tubing to and from my
filters was caked with crud until recently. At first I thought maybe
the crud in the tubing (and it was thick) was causing the cloudy water,
but I flushed that out (using aquarium water) and then allowed the
filters to collect the stuff over the next 48 hours. After that is when
I cleaned the sponge media thoroughly (in tap water).

Thanks again for the advice!
Kevin


What the cloudiness probably is is the start of a biological bacteria (good)
culture in your tank water. Changing too much water disposes of the good
bacteria free floating in your water or provides excess nutrients which the
good bacteria reproduces rapidly to eat the nutrients. Also - destroying
good bacteria in this case by rinsing the filter media under tap water (some
people claim this is safe but my experience for me proves otherwise) might
dislodge the good bacteria from the filter and it's (the good bacteria)
contents (biological contents) spill out into the tank from the filter and
other bacteria/organisms pig out on the dead good bacteria's bodies thus
coloring the water white with their bodies. Take note - I am putting my own
spin on what is happening to give you everything I've got mentally about
this subject - do take what I have said with a grain of salt. I'd recommend
continuing to at the very least somewhat regularly clean your filter media
in fresh tank wastewater and changing less water. You tank seems to continue
cycling (good bacteria establishment afterward), let the tank cycle.
Probably if you change a little water more frequently the good bacteria can
establish itself mostly in the filter and otherwise all over all surface
area in the tank water the cloudiness will go away, let it cycle with small
frequent water changes for a few weeks. Sometimes it takes a month or so but
as I learned early in my hobbyism you've just plain got to let the tank
cycle. You can speed up the process drastically by getting someone (lfs?) to
give you a piece of their filter medium which you can then put in your
filter or use a bacteria starter product for freshwater aquariums (cycle,
bio-spira - I have heard good things about bio-spira), or even get some
established gravel from someone else's tank. There is a small amount of the
good bacteria in the tanks water as well, which also should be allowed to
build up. The previous was somewhat off topic - try
rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc for more information. Good luck and later!

Bottom post.
"KStringer" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm really hoping some of you out there can help me as I'm
completely stumped.

I have a 180G planted Freshwater community tank that is plagued by a
progressively worse white cloudiness to the water. I have read that
there are two causes to this:

1. Overfeeding (I feed my fish once a day and they eat everything
within less than 2 minutes)
2. Unsettled bacteria (I'm not sure I completely understand this
cause though)

Here are my tank specs:

1. 180 gallons
2. 4x96 Watt 6700K lighting 12-13 hours per day
3. CO2 injection usually around 25ppm
4. PH 8.0 (when CO2 injection is not on)
5. zero ammonia and nitrites
6. 2x Rena XP3 Canister filters and 1 Emperor 400 HOB filter.
7. Fertilizers are a potassium/Iron fert and Plantex CSM+B once a
week. I've dialed back on this too to see if it has any effect.
8. Eco-Complete substrate

Plants:
2 amazon sword plants
1 melon sword plant
1 crytpocoryn
6-8 Ludwigia (Red variety and leaves are all nice and red)
8 Corkscrew Vallisneria

Fish:
Total of about 58 small community fish comprised of 3 different
tetras, zebra danios, red tail shark, swordtails, a couple of
mollies, 4 plecos, kuhli loaches, clown loaches and a few ghost
shrimp.

I've cleaned out my filters by rinsing out the sponge portion of the
Rena XP3 filters to remove any heavy detritus, and replaced micro
filter pads.
I added the HOB filter for additional filtration and to add carbon
to the filtration.
I dialed back on food but I'm scared to use any less at this point.
Frequent water changes, about 50-75% each week.

What is more frustrating is that I have a little 2.5 Gallon Betta
tank that has 1 ludwegia and 2 corskrew plants in it with a single
betta fish and that water remains perfectly clear except for some
minor algae buildup.

I did receive some advice from someone that suggested that it might be
caused by plants that have died off and could be causing an ammonia
spike and that I should remove any decaying plant matter and gently
vacuum the substrate.

I typically do this during each water change and after the water change
the water will be clear for about a day or two then get progressively
more cloudy with each day.

Any advice is greatly appreciated as I just don't know how to figure
out what's causing the problem.

With Great Thanks,
Kevin

FWIW - I have two Eheims and alternate weekly with their cleaning. Using a
shower head, I flush out all of the muck with tap water - I then re-assemble
it adding a capful of Nutrafin Cycle and then fill the filter with water
from my aquarium. Working on the 20% rule I should change 64 litres of
water, however in practice the change is 108 litres (34%). These odd
numbers suit me as it's the size of containers that I use. Seems to work for
me.

HTH - Dave
---
Hampshire
England

I'm very frustrated at this point because now I'm dealing with really
bad green water algae and the bacteria bloom (white cloudiness). I did
a small water change (about 20%) last night, in line with what's been
suggested to me to allow the bacteria to settle. Should I be attacking
the green water problem first or the bacteria bloom? The water's so
thick that I can see the currents moving through it. I can't imagine
that my fish are very comfortable with all of that in there.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to tackle these simultaneous
problems?

"KStringer" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm really hoping some of you out there can help me as I'm
completely stumped.

I have a 180G planted Freshwater community tank that is plagued by a
progressively worse white cloudiness to the water. I have read that
there are two causes to this:
==================================
No matter what causes it, if you can beg, borrow or buy a Vortex Diatom
filter it will remove it! I've never seen these filters fail to clear a
cloudy tank. To make it go faster remove about 1/2 the water - run the
diatom filter - replace the water. You may have to do this twice if the
clouding is really bad. Remember to change the powder between runs as well.
Use the powder with the powdered charcoal if you can find it.
--
Reel McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

"KStringer" wrote in message
ps.com...
I'm very frustrated at this point because now I'm dealing with really
bad green water algae and the bacteria bloom (white cloudiness). I did
a small water change (about 20%) last night, in line with what's been
suggested to me to allow the bacteria to settle. Should I be attacking
the green water problem first or the bacteria bloom? The water's so
thick that I can see the currents moving through it. I can't imagine
that my fish are very comfortable with all of that in there.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to tackle these simultaneous
problems?
===================
See my earlier post concerning Vortex Diatom Filters. I've had one for many
years. They'll remove BOTH the bacterial cloud and the algae. I think
"That Fish Place" still carries them or ask your local fish store if they
can order you one. They leave the water crystal clear. You only run them
a few hours, not 24/7 as they're water polishers.
--
Reel McKoi.... frugal ponding since 1995...
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o

On 2005-11-08, KStringer wrote:

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to tackle these simultaneous
problems?


http://www.aquariaplants.com/cloudygreenwater.htm

--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

Diatom filters cost a good bit. The Green Water is similar to any other
algae. GW is almost a......phase...... of many, many tanks (including
mine). It shoould clear up in time if you do nothing. A Diatom filter
will fix the problem, possibly only temporarily. I'd fix your tank
maintenance and forget about the GW for now. I built a Diatom type
filter and removed about 75% of my GW, only to have it regrow two days
later. Filtering it likely isn't the fix. Your current filter should do
most of that.

BTW The cloudiness has to do with bacteria and your tank going through
a "mini cycle" I think is the term. That is for the most part bad and
definetely undesireable. It's likely caused my overcleaning the filters
or otherwise destroying some of the bacteria colony.

For what it's worth, I battled GW for like 6 weeks. Trying this, trying
that, probably compounding problems. I think it was NetMax that
convinced me to leave it alone. About ten days later the water went
from totally opaque green, to crystal clear in 48 hours.

Anyhoo. Research what I say. Every tank can be different. You'll learn
something from this I promise.

http://www.geocities.com/spiral_72/Spirals_page.html

On 2005-11-09, spiral_72 wrote:

For what it's worth, I battled GW for like 6 weeks. Trying this, trying
that, probably compounding problems. I think it was NetMax that
convinced me to leave it alone. About ten days later the water went
from totally opaque green, to crystal clear in 48 hours.


My 29G with 65W of lighting was exactly like that. It cleared up all by
itself. I had to use the UV sterilizer on my 10G with 40W. Could not
even see into the tank. I tried being patient with it, but it would not
clear up like the 29G tank.


--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

Thank you so much for all of the information. The article provided is
excellent and I will definately try it. The stuff is so thick I can't
see more than 1 inch into the tank from anywhere so I'll look into
renting a diatom filter if possible. I don't think I can convince the
Mrs. to allow me to purchase a new expensive toy for the tank after
I've already spent a small fortune on it :-)
If I can't do that, I'll try the 5 day blackout.

Thanks again, I really appreciate the suggestions as I've been
completely frustrated with this problem.

Best Regards,
Kevin

"KStringer" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thank you so much for all of the information. The article provided is
excellent and I will definately try it. The stuff is so thick I can't
see more than 1 inch into the tank from anywhere so I'll look into
renting a diatom filter if possible.

I don't think I can convince the
Mrs. to allow me to purchase a new expensive toy for the tank after
I've already spent a small fortune on it :-)
========================================
They run about $60 and last for years. :-) They're great for running after
doing a gravel vacuuming. It'll leave the tanks looking they're new
set-ups.
--
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://bellsouthpwp.net/s/h/shastadaisy
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o