All,

I've been doing a lot of research on how to keep plants and am hoping
someone would be kind enough to confirm or correct my conclusions and
answer some questions.

1. I understand that different plants need varying amounts of light
and some need a substrate while others will attach to rocks or
driftwood; also, different plants grow to different sizes. This
should all be researched and the proper plants/conditions
chosen/arranged. Makes sense.

Can anyone give a general listing of how many watts per gallon equate
to low, medium and high lighting?

There seems to be some difference in the light requirements with very
small tanks (those under 10g?) - is it that they need more watts per
gallon (because the wattage is so low) or that they don't need as many
watts because they're more shallow, or....?

2. Plants need carbon - this can come from CO2 (either what's in the
water or from an injection system) or from a liquid like Flourish
Excel. There are tests to measure CO2 in water, these or the
instructions on the bottle (plus observation) can be used to determine
amounts needed.

3. Plants need nutrients. From what I've read, it's possible they'll
get enough ammonia, nitrite, nitrate from the fish (but testing is
needed and if the nitrate is too low, it may be necessary to add
nitrate).

Phosphate may come from your water; depending on how much your water
has, you may need to add some. There are test kits for this.

Potassium - this probably needs to be added. There are some tests,
but they seem rare and pretty expensive. Probably best to follow the
directions for the fertilizer and/or use "nutrient deficiency"
symptoms to determine if this is needed.

"Trace nutrients" - it seems like the amount needed is based on the
results of iron tests or that you simply add based on the
recommendations on the bottle. (Is it safe to assume that calcium,
magnesium and sulfate tests aren't needed (for the average person)?).

Which of these (trace, nitrate, phosphate, potassium) can come from
the substrate (at least for plants planted in the substrate)? Do any
of these nutrients leach into the water for plants not planted in the
substrate?


Assuming the plants, lighting, carbon (dioxide), substrate and
fertilizers are all properly selected / applied, one should have a
healthy planted tank, no?

Thanks,

Liz

On 2005-11-18, Liz McGuire wrote:

Assuming the plants, lighting, carbon (dioxide), substrate and
fertilizers are all properly selected / applied, one should have a
healthy planted tank, no?


http://plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=17
http://www.aquariaplants.com/lowlighttank.htm
http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/plant-lighting.html



--
"I have to decide between two equally frightening options.
If I wanted to do that, I'd vote." --Duckman

Liz McGuire wrote:
All,

I've been doing a lot of research on how to keep plants and am hoping
someone would be kind enough to confirm or correct my conclusions and
answer some questions.

1. I understand that different plants need varying amounts of light
and some need a substrate while others will attach to rocks or
driftwood; also, different plants grow to different sizes. This
should all be researched and the proper plants/conditions
chosen/arranged. Makes sense.

Can anyone give a general listing of how many watts per gallon equate
to low, medium and high lighting?

There seems to be some difference in the light requirements with very
small tanks (those under 10g?) - is it that they need more watts per
gallon (because the wattage is so low) or that they don't need as many
watts because they're more shallow, or....?

the deeper the water the more light needed /gal

2. Plants need carbon - this can come from CO2 (either what's in the
water or from an injection system) or from a liquid like Flourish
Excel. There are tests to measure CO2 in water, these or the
instructions on the bottle (plus observation) can be used to determine
amounts needed.

my plants do fine with no injection of any kind. fish suppply plant food
plants supply fish air and some food.

3. Plants need nutrients. From what I've read, it's possible they'll
get enough ammonia, nitrite, nitrate from the fish (but testing is
needed and if the nitrate is too low, it may be necessary to add
nitrate).

same as above

Phosphate may come from your water; depending on how much your water
has, you may need to add some. There are test kits for this.

Potassium - this probably needs to be added. There are some tests,
but they seem rare and pretty expensive. Probably best to follow the
directions for the fertilizer and/or use "nutrient deficiency"
symptoms to determine if this is needed.

"Trace nutrients" - it seems like the amount needed is based on the
results of iron tests or that you simply add based on the
recommendations on the bottle. (Is it safe to assume that calcium,
magnesium and sulfate tests aren't needed (for the average person)?).

Which of these (trace, nitrate, phosphate, potassium) can come from
the substrate (at least for plants planted in the substrate)? Do any
of these nutrients leach into the water for plants not planted in the
substrate?

adain I would not use anything special if you have fish unless you
notice problems, then ask

Assuming the plants, lighting, carbon (dioxide), substrate and
fertilizers are all properly selected / applied, one should have a
healthy planted tank, no?

Thanks,

Liz
if plants were heathy to start and also PH and hardness may play a role
in more sensitive plants. start with hardy and go from there as with
fish use the kiss method (Keeep It Simple Stupid), never liked the
stupid part of that saying.

Thanks, js1. Very useful links - esp. for smaller aquariums where
it's hard to get lots of light.

Liz


js1 wrote:

http://plantgeek.net/article_viewer.php?id=17
http://www.aquariaplants.com/lowlighttank.htm
http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/plant-lighting.html

Thanks, Justice - good to know there are folks out there who are
successful with this approach (I've read everything from "just throw
the plants in there" to what appear to be algebraic formulas!)

Liz


Justice wrote:

if plants were heathy to start and also PH and hardness may play a role
in more sensitive plants. start with hardy and go from there as with
fish use the kiss method (Keeep It Simple Stupid), never liked the
stupid part of that saying.

There should also be some online articles for
easy-care plants. I have those and don't do
any CO2 injection. One tank has only gravel
as a substrate. Plants do fine. Java Fern,
various Crypts, maybe a sword or two (I still
can't ID some plants!). Lighting is what came
with the hoods (flourescent), nothing extra.
I only use fertilizer in the tank that has a gravel
substrate and only about once a month; the other
tanks have Profile under gravel and get their
fertilizer from the fish. I have baby plants all
over the place.

Gail

Thanks, Gail. I'm not so much looking for easy-to-care-for plants as
for whether or not I have these basic principles down right. If so,
then I know I'm headed in the right direction and can focus my
research accordingly - if not, I need to understand where I'm off and
correct course (so to speak).

But I do appreciate knowing what is working for you and that it can be
easy.

Thanks,

Liz


Gail Futoran wrote:

There should also be some online articles for
easy-care plants. I have those and don't do
any CO2 injection. One tank has only gravel
as a substrate. Plants do fine. Java Fern,
various Crypts, maybe a sword or two (I still
can't ID some plants!). Lighting is what came
with the hoods (flourescent), nothing extra.
I only use fertilizer in the tank that has a gravel
substrate and only about once a month; the other
tanks have Profile under gravel and get their
fertilizer from the fish. I have baby plants all
over the place.

Gail

Liz McGuire" wrote in message
...
Thanks, Gail. I'm not so much looking for easy-to-care-for plants as
for whether or not I have these basic principles down right. If so,
then I know I'm headed in the right direction and can focus my
research accordingly - if not, I need to understand where I'm off and
correct course (so to speak).

But I do appreciate knowing what is working for you and that it can be
easy.

Thanks,

Liz

Good approach!
Looking back at your original post, let me make
a stab at a few questions:
1. Lighting. I can't comment on #watts per gal since
I don't bother with that. One point re your question:

There seems to be some difference in the light requirements with very
small tanks (those under 10g?) - is it that they need more watts per
gallon (because the wattage is so low) or that they don't need as many
watts because they're more shallow, or....?

Depth does affect the lighting needs. Bigger tanks
tend to be deeper. I prefer the long version of
tanks bigger than 10 g because my fish are small
and I believe I can "fit" more fish in with greater
surface area. That might be another reason why
my "easy care" plants do well with minimal light.
Anyhoo, if you have standard tanks you do have
to take depth into account.

Skipping onward:
3. Nutrients
Which of these (trace, nitrate, phosphate, potassium) can come from
the substrate (at least for plants planted in the substrate)? Do any
of these nutrients leach into the water for plants not planted in the
substrate?

It's my understanding that with the right substrate
you don't really need to add anything else. I
don't add any of the nutrients you mention to the
three tanks with the Profile+gravel substrate and
after a year all plants continue to thrive and reproduce.
But again, that might not fit all situations (or plants).

Assuming the plants, lighting, carbon (dioxide), substrate and
fertilizers are all properly selected / applied, one should have a
healthy planted tank, no?

Yep. Assuming you don't add fish that love to
tear up plants!

There are some good books available, if you're
interested in going that route. I did research online
but still ended up buying Diana Walstad's "Ecology
of the Planted Aquarium". Not everyone in the
hobby subscribes to her approach, but it worked
for me. As usual, YMMV. g

Let us know how your research progresses.

Gail

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 23:32:41 -0700, Liz McGuire wrote:

Regarding fish that tear up plants - sounds fun, but probably isn't G
Fortunately, the betta is pretty entertaining, so I won't go looking!

Next time you set up a tank from scratch, try some EcoComplete for a
substrate. It's not cheap, but plants love it. You can mix it (I did)
up to half and half with some fine gravel or coarse sand to make it go
further.

And dosing with Flourish Excel is almost as good as CO2 injection and a
lot easier and cheaper.

Also, give the plants a few weeks to get settled in before you add any
fish. If you add fish slowly, you'll never see any ammonia or nitrite -
the plants gobble it up.

For a 10 gallon tank (or a 18 gallon tall) you can get either a
fluorescent or an incndescent hood. Get the incandescent and use two of
the screwin 6500K fluorescents in it. That'll give you plenty of light.
The bulbs are available at Walmart for less than the pet stores charge.

And speaking of the 18 gallon, tall tanks do give you the opportunity to
grow some plants that won't fit in a low tank.

I'm not trying to come off as an expert, just reporting what's worked for
me. One of these days I'll get some pictures that don't have reflected
glare and I'll post them on my web site.

Good luck.

Thanks again, Gail. I'll check out the book!

Regarding fish that tear up plants - sounds fun, but probably isn't
G Fortunately, the betta is pretty entertaining, so I won't go
looking!

Liz


Gail Futoran wrote:

There are some good books available, if you're
interested in going that route. I did research online
but still ended up buying Diana Walstad's "Ecology
of the Planted Aquarium". Not everyone in the
hobby subscribes to her approach, but it worked
for me. As usual, YMMV. g

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:30:11 -0700, Liz McGuire wrote:

Can anyone give a general listing of how many watts per gallon equate
to low, medium and high lighting?

That's a difficult estimate to make. My 2.5G has 13W on it (5+ WPG) but
is considered medium. My 55 has 180W on it (3+ WPG) and is also medium to
medium high depending on who you ask.

How big of a tank are you working with? What a lot of people don't mention
is that you should aim for medium at first- learning with high light can
be frustrating.

2. Plants need carbon - this can come from CO2 (either what's in the
water or from an injection system) or from a liquid like Flourish Excel.
There are tests to measure CO2 in water, these or the instructions on
the bottle (plus observation) can be used to determine amounts needed.

Assuming you don't use peat or blackwater mixes, there's a better way.
Measure pH and KH and look it up he

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

3. Plants need nutrients. From what I've read, it's possible they'll
get enough ammonia, nitrite, nitrate from the fish (but testing is
needed and if the nitrate is too low, it may be necessary to add
nitrate).

They probably will get enough in medium light with a decent fishload.

Phosphate may come from your water; depending on how much your water
has, you may need to add some. There are test kits for this.

Fish food is also high in phosphate.

Potassium - this probably needs to be added. There are some tests, but
they seem rare and pretty expensive. Probably best to follow the
directions for the fertilizer and/or use "nutrient deficiency" symptoms
to determine if this is needed.

Iron before pottassium, definitely.

"Trace nutrients" - it seems like the amount needed is based on the
results of iron tests or that you simply add based on the
recommendations on the bottle. (Is it safe to assume that calcium,
magnesium and sulfate tests aren't needed (for the average person)?).

Calcium magnesium and sulphate are present in tapwater. If your GH is
medium range out of the tap you will be fine.

Assuming the plants, lighting, carbon (dioxide), substrate and
fertilizers are all properly selected / applied, one should have a
healthy planted tank, no?

There's one other thing to mention: water changes. Doing them frequently
(I do 25-30% weekly) helps keep your water fresh. It removes DOCs
(dissolved organic compounds), replenishes KH and GH, and keeps your water
from getting buildups of fertilizers or other stuff. Plus it's a good
excuse to remove dead plant matter and perform other tasks. In a planted
tank you only want to vac the top 1/2" of substrate. Anything deeper can
become plant fertilizer.

Go visit fishgeek.net- it's a very good resource.

~Empty

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 20:30:11 -0700, Liz McGuire
wrote:

All,

I've been doing a lot of research on how to keep plants and am hoping
someone would be kind enough to confirm or correct my conclusions and
answer some questions.

1. I understand that different plants need varying amounts of light
and some need a substrate while others will attach to rocks or
driftwood; also, different plants grow to different sizes. This
should all be researched and the proper plants/conditions
chosen/arranged. Makes sense.

Can anyone give a general listing of how many watts per gallon equate
to low, medium and high lighting?

There seems to be some difference in the light requirements with very
small tanks (those under 10g?) - is it that they need more watts per
gallon (because the wattage is so low) or that they don't need as many
watts because they're more shallow, or....?

2. Plants need carbon - this can come from CO2 (either what's in the
water or from an injection system) or from a liquid like Flourish
Excel. There are tests to measure CO2 in water, these or the
instructions on the bottle (plus observation) can be used to determine
amounts needed.

3. Plants need nutrients. From what I've read, it's possible they'll
get enough ammonia, nitrite, nitrate from the fish (but testing is
needed and if the nitrate is too low, it may be necessary to add
nitrate).

Phosphate may come from your water; depending on how much your water
has, you may need to add some. There are test kits for this.

Potassium - this probably needs to be added. There are some tests,
but they seem rare and pretty expensive. Probably best to follow the
directions for the fertilizer and/or use "nutrient deficiency"
symptoms to determine if this is needed.

"Trace nutrients" - it seems like the amount needed is based on the
results of iron tests or that you simply add based on the
recommendations on the bottle. (Is it safe to assume that calcium,
magnesium and sulfate tests aren't needed (for the average person)?).

Which of these (trace, nitrate, phosphate, potassium) can come from
the substrate (at least for plants planted in the substrate)? Do any
of these nutrients leach into the water for plants not planted in the
substrate?


Assuming the plants, lighting, carbon (dioxide), substrate and
fertilizers are all properly selected / applied, one should have a
healthy planted tank, no?

Thanks,

Liz

Wow Liz! I would hardly call your interest "basics." I am a
minamalist with "Low Light" tanks. Somewhere around 1.5 watts/gallon
is the number I remember.

I use no CO2 nor fertilizers.

I didn't see any mention of gravel, my tanks have different gravel
types and I believe I have seen different growth patterns.

Light wave lengths may be as important as strength. I have one 10
gallon tank with 15 watts of light, but the plant growth has been
minimal, where as in two other 10 gallon tanks with same plant stocks,
the growth has been much fuller.

I have a mysterious difference between my 29 and 75 gallon tanks.
Same crypt stock, but in the 29 gallon tanks they are weeds needing
constant pruning and growing so long the tops lay over whereas the 75
gallon tank has healthy growth and needs modertate pruning as they
spread, but the same stock is less than 6 inches tall 14 inches tall
in the 29 gallon.

Good luck, sounds like a lifetime project.

dick

Empty wrote:

How big of a tank are you working with? What a lot of people don't mention
is that you should aim for medium at first- learning with high light can
be frustrating.

Right now I have an Eclipse 6 tank with a ton of flourite in it and
maybe 4 gallons is left for water. It comes with an 8W florescent
tube and I don't see an easy way to change this... You can see it
he

http://www.lizmcguireonline.com/6g.jpg

....I've recently discovered that it has hornwort and cabomba (wasn't
labeled at the store - research indicates I probably don't have enough
light for it - we'll see) and something I can't identify (the store
didn't have good labeling and the plant expert wasn't around, but I
liked them, so I took a gamble).

Assuming you don't use peat or blackwater mixes, there's a better way.
Measure pH and KH and look it up he

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm

:-) Just did this yesterday or Thursday and yesterday I got Flourish
Excel to compensate - CO2 was a little on the low side.

Phosphate may come from your water; depending on how much your water
has, you may need to add some. There are test kits for this.

Fish food is also high in phosphate.

Ah, this is new! I'm still looking for a test kit - guess I'll have
to get it online. Hopefully between fish food and what's in the
water, I'm OK (but we'll see).

Iron before pottassium, definitely.

Ah, this too is new - thank you. Perhaps I'll get an iron test too
(as I'm not familiar with any of this, it'll help me understand what
my water (and substrate?) have already until I get comfortable with
all this).

Calcium magnesium and sulphate are present in tapwater. If your GH is
medium range out of the tap you will be fine.

Thank you - good to know. My tap water is in the medium-high range,
so I won't worry a lot about these.

There's one other thing to mention: water changes. Doing them frequently
(I do 25-30% weekly) helps keep your water fresh. It removes DOCs
(dissolved organic compounds), replenishes KH and GH, and keeps your water
from getting buildups of fertilizers or other stuff. Plus it's a good
excuse to remove dead plant matter and perform other tasks. In a planted
tank you only want to vac the top 1/2" of substrate. Anything deeper can
become plant fertilizer.

I do perform weekly water changes as my research on fish (from before
the plant research) made it clear that this was best for them - so
doing it for the plants too is no problem. Thanks for the advice on
gravel vacuuming - this is another thing I've been wondering and
reading about.

Go visit fishgeek.net- it's a very good resource.

Thank you - I'm not sure I've been there, so I'll bookmark it and add
it to my reading.

Thanks,

Liz

Dick wrote:

Wow Liz! I would hardly call your interest "basics."

Well, I'm kinda obsessive and hate not knowing what I'm doing! :-)

I am a
minamalist with "Low Light" tanks. Somewhere around 1.5 watts/gallon
is the number I remember.

I use no CO2 nor fertilizers.

This seems to be a recurring theme - low light = no special effort
needed (assuming the plants are compatible). I've also found some
very nice looking plants and example arrangements on the internet
which make use of this kind of arrangement - It may very well be how I
decide to go.

I didn't see any mention of gravel, my tanks have different gravel
types and I believe I have seen different growth patterns.

Yes, I forgot to include that. I've got Flourite in my planted tank
(and my experimental 2g tank g). I've also been reading about
Eco-Complete. Is there a particular type of gravel that's worked
better for you?

Light wave lengths may be as important as strength. I have one 10
gallon tank with 15 watts of light, but the plant growth has been
minimal, where as in two other 10 gallon tanks with same plant stocks,
the growth has been much fuller.

I hadn't thought about wavelength, but that would likely make a big
difference in terms of penetration into the water. What kind of light
do you have in the two tanks with fuller growth?

I have a mysterious difference between my 29 and 75 gallon tanks.
Same crypt stock, but in the 29 gallon tanks they are weeds needing
constant pruning and growing so long the tops lay over whereas the 75
gallon tank has healthy growth and needs modertate pruning as they
spread, but the same stock is less than 6 inches tall 14 inches tall
in the 29 gallon.

Have you figured out the difference yet? I suspect I'll never go much
beyond a 55g tank (but who knows), so shorter plants and slower growth
will likely be better for me... Perhaps your 29 has more WPG or the
light is getting down to the plants better?

Good luck, sounds like a lifetime project.

Thank you! And yes, I expect this is a lifetime thing now (very
addictive, the little fishies, and the real plants look so much nicer
than the fake stuff...).

Liz

On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 12:10:13 -0700, Liz McGuire
wrote:

Dick wrote:

Wow Liz! I would hardly call your interest "basics."

Well, I'm kinda obsessive and hate not knowing what I'm doing! :-)

I am a
minamalist with "Low Light" tanks. Somewhere around 1.5 watts/gallon
is the number I remember.

I use no CO2 nor fertilizers.

This seems to be a recurring theme - low light = no special effort
needed (assuming the plants are compatible). I've also found some
very nice looking plants and example arrangements on the internet
which make use of this kind of arrangement - It may very well be how I
decide to go.

I didn't see any mention of gravel, my tanks have different gravel
types and I believe I have seen different growth patterns.

Yes, I forgot to include that. I've got Flourite in my planted tank
(and my experimental 2g tank g). I've also been reading about
Eco-Complete. Is there a particular type of gravel that's worked
better for you?

Light wave lengths may be as important as strength. I have one 10
gallon tank with 15 watts of light, but the plant growth has been
minimal, where as in two other 10 gallon tanks with same plant stocks,
the growth has been much fuller.

I hadn't thought about wavelength, but that would likely make a big
difference in terms of penetration into the water. What kind of light
do you have in the two tanks with fuller growth?

I don't know, whatever was in the hoods.


I have a mysterious difference between my 29 and 75 gallon tanks.
Same crypt stock, but in the 29 gallon tanks they are weeds needing
constant pruning and growing so long the tops lay over whereas the 75
gallon tank has healthy growth and needs modertate pruning as they
spread, but the same stock is less than 6 inches tall 14 inches tall
in the 29 gallon.

Have you figured out the difference yet? I suspect I'll never go much
beyond a 55g tank (but who knows), so shorter plants and slower growth
will likely be better for me... Perhaps your 29 has more WPG or the
light is getting down to the plants better?

No, the mystery remains. I tried moving some of the "tall" crypts to
the 75, but they remain at the low height of the those in the tank.
I have a 10 gallon tank in which no plant grows hardly at all, up or
out. Another 10 gallon tank was a "death" tank for the first year,
neither plants nor fish would survive. In a very short order, it
sprouted. Fish survived and the plants started filling the tank. I
had to divide the anubia and it needs dividing again. By the way, the
top half went to the 29 gallon and is puny. I divided an Anubia in my
75 gallon and both halves are thriving.

I like the plants because, like most live stuff, they change and do
unexpected things.


Good luck, sounds like a lifetime project.

Thank you! And yes, I expect this is a lifetime thing now (very
addictive, the little fishies, and the real plants look so much nicer
than the fake stuff...).

Liz


dick