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Old 23-01-2006, 09:06 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
Shorty
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

I got a 55gal tank about a month ago. It has a AGA tripe-strip
fluorescent Iight (120 watts) and fluorite. The light is on for about
12 hours. I'm using an eheim ecco 2234 filter.

First I put in a couple of small amazon swords, a couple of anubias,
java ferns and anacharis/elodea. My tap water has a very low KH (1 or
2) and my pH registered at around 7.2/7.4.

After the first week, I bought some driftwood at a LFS. I asked the guy
if I needed to treat the wood before I put it in the aquarium. I know
some places sell driftwood already treated so it would not leech any
chemicals in the water. The guy said that I just need to rinse it and
that's it.
Well, when I put the driftood in my tank, the pH suddenly dropped to to
around 6 or lower (my ph test kit doesn't show lower than that) and the
water became yellowish.

Since I wanted to have tetras, I didn't mind the tannin in the water.
But I wanted to get my pH more stable so I added some sodium
bicarbonate. This brought my KH to about 4-5 and my pH to about 7.2. I
was happy again.

The anacharis started growing fast. The interesting thing is that the
new stems that grew from the old ones had their leaves more open,
sparser and lighter green that the original ones I bought. The anubias
were growing very slowly. The amazon swords shooted stocks and new
leaves. But the java ferns were not looking good. They didn't seem to
grow at all and started getting a lot of ugly hairy algae. I left the
fern that started having little leaves growing and got rid of the other
one that was full of algae.
I planted the java farnes on the driftwood. Were they too high and too
close to the light? Parts of the new baby leaves look transparent
green. Should I plant the java fern in the corner with less light?

Later on I got some dwarf hairgrass that I planted all around the tank,
a dwarf chain sword, corkscrew vallisneria and java moss. Not sure if
my moss was low quality. It was all brown and it doesn't seem to be
growing in my tank. I'm thinking about getting rid of the moss.

I also got 6 ottos. They're really cute and active little cleaners. Too
bad they don't eat the hairy algae. One of them died a day later. But
the other five are still there, happy and getting fat. I don't feed
them much, just some cucumber and algae wafer once a week.

And just recently, I started injecting CO2 with the hagen natural plant
grow system. (the yeast based with the ladder-type diffuser). I wanted
to start slow. They recommend one per 20gal. So since I have 55 I could
do no harm, right?
Well, right now, my KH is at 4 and my pH seems to be at 6.6. That's
about 30ppm of CO2.
My ottos seem happy and healthy. I can't believe that the CO2 system
for 20gal tanks is making such a big difference on my tank. My water is
not splashing by I have a spray bar right under the surface that moves
the water around.

Do I really have 30ppm of CO2 and should I be worried about my ottos or
could it be that my pH is lower for a different reason and my CO2 not
that high?

I also have a bunch of little snails. They don't seem to be eating any
plants yet. I get rid of them during my weekly water change (25%). But
there are more appearing. Are they dangerous to my tank? I don't mind
having them if they don't do any damage.

I'm planning to get some shrimp, rasboras, gouramis and tetras. I would
like to get neons or cardinals but if my water conditions are not too
good then maybe blood fin tetras.
Do I need my tank densly planted before I get the tetras?
Any recommendations?

Thank you!


  #2   Report Post  
Old 23-01-2006, 09:16 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
Charles
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

On 23 Jan 2006 13:06:47 -0800, "Shorty"
wrote:

I got a 55gal tank about a month ago. It has a AGA tripe-strip
fluorescent Iight (120 watts) and fluorite. The light is on for about
12 hours. I'm using an eheim ecco 2234 filter.

First I put in a couple of small amazon swords, a couple of anubias,
java ferns and anacharis/elodea. My tap water has a very low KH (1 or
2) and my pH registered at around 7.2/7.4.

After the first week, I bought some driftwood at a LFS. I asked the guy
if I needed to treat the wood before I put it in the aquarium. I know
some places sell driftwood already treated so it would not leech any
chemicals in the water. The guy said that I just need to rinse it and
that's it.
Well, when I put the driftood in my tank, the pH suddenly dropped to to
around 6 or lower (my ph test kit doesn't show lower than that) and the
water became yellowish.

Since I wanted to have tetras, I didn't mind the tannin in the water.
But I wanted to get my pH more stable so I added some sodium
bicarbonate. This brought my KH to about 4-5 and my pH to about 7.2. I
was happy again.

The anacharis started growing fast. The interesting thing is that the
new stems that grew from the old ones had their leaves more open,
sparser and lighter green that the original ones I bought. The anubias
were growing very slowly. The amazon swords shooted stocks and new
leaves. But the java ferns were not looking good. They didn't seem to
grow at all and started getting a lot of ugly hairy algae. I left the
fern that started having little leaves growing and got rid of the other
one that was full of algae.
I planted the java farnes on the driftwood. Were they too high and too
close to the light? Parts of the new baby leaves look transparent
green. Should I plant the java fern in the corner with less light?

Later on I got some dwarf hairgrass that I planted all around the tank,
a dwarf chain sword, corkscrew vallisneria and java moss. Not sure if
my moss was low quality. It was all brown and it doesn't seem to be
growing in my tank. I'm thinking about getting rid of the moss.

I also got 6 ottos. They're really cute and active little cleaners. Too
bad they don't eat the hairy algae. One of them died a day later. But
the other five are still there, happy and getting fat. I don't feed
them much, just some cucumber and algae wafer once a week.

And just recently, I started injecting CO2 with the hagen natural plant
grow system. (the yeast based with the ladder-type diffuser). I wanted
to start slow. They recommend one per 20gal. So since I have 55 I could
do no harm, right?
Well, right now, my KH is at 4 and my pH seems to be at 6.6. That's
about 30ppm of CO2.
My ottos seem happy and healthy. I can't believe that the CO2 system
for 20gal tanks is making such a big difference on my tank. My water is
not splashing by I have a spray bar right under the surface that moves
the water around.

Do I really have 30ppm of CO2 and should I be worried about my ottos or
could it be that my pH is lower for a different reason and my CO2 not
that high?

I also have a bunch of little snails. They don't seem to be eating any
plants yet. I get rid of them during my weekly water change (25%). But
there are more appearing. Are they dangerous to my tank? I don't mind
having them if they don't do any damage.

I'm planning to get some shrimp, rasboras, gouramis and tetras. I would
like to get neons or cardinals but if my water conditions are not too
good then maybe blood fin tetras.
Do I need my tank densly planted before I get the tetras?
Any recommendations?

Thank you!



Only parts I feel I can comment on

The elodia is probably turning pale from the lower amount of light, it
may have been grown outdoors in full sun. It should be okay, jusdt
different when grown indoors.

The driftwood turning the water dark and a little bit acid, it does
that. for the fish you say you are keeping, I don't see any problem

for snails, the problem I have with them is they get into the filters
and damage the impellers.

anubius is known to grow slowly.

I have rather bad luck with java fern, I don't know why I keep trying.

for me, Java moss is a good substitute for algae, except that it gets
all mixed up with algae anyway. I don't know why I keep using it.
  #3   Report Post  
Old 23-01-2006, 09:34 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
NetMax
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

"Shorty" wrote in message
oups.com...
I got a 55gal tank about a month ago. It has a AGA tripe-strip
fluorescent Iight (120 watts) and fluorite. The light is on for about
12 hours. I'm using an eheim ecco 2234 filter.

First I put in a couple of small amazon swords, a couple of anubias,
java ferns and anacharis/elodea. My tap water has a very low KH (1 or
2) and my pH registered at around 7.2/7.4.

After the first week, I bought some driftwood at a LFS. I asked the guy
if I needed to treat the wood before I put it in the aquarium. I know
some places sell driftwood already treated so it would not leech any
chemicals in the water. The guy said that I just need to rinse it and
that's it.
Well, when I put the driftood in my tank, the pH suddenly dropped to to
around 6 or lower (my ph test kit doesn't show lower than that) and the
water became yellowish.


The driftwood was probably fine to put in a stable tank (3-6dkH), but it
yours. it took you over the edge.

Since I wanted to have tetras, I didn't mind the tannin in the water.
But I wanted to get my pH more stable so I added some sodium
bicarbonate. This brought my KH to about 4-5 and my pH to about 7.2. I
was happy again.


You might want to look for a more stable method, such as crushed coral in a
canister filter.

I presume you are finished cycling, or if there are no fish, then you
haven't started yet. This is important to know.

The anacharis started growing fast. The interesting thing is that the
new stems that grew from the old ones had their leaves more open,
sparser and lighter green that the original ones I bought. The anubias
were growing very slowly. The amazon swords shooted stocks and new
leaves. But the java ferns were not looking good. They didn't seem to
grow at all and started getting a lot of ugly hairy algae. I left the
fern that started having little leaves growing and got rid of the other
one that was full of algae.
I planted the java farnes on the driftwood. Were they too high and too
close to the light? Parts of the new baby leaves look transparent
green. Should I plant the java fern in the corner with less light?


Yes. A sudden significant change in light intensity can damage plants.
Slow growing plants sometimes have the biggest trouble with this. Faster
growing plants recover more quickly by throwing out more light appropriate
leaves. This can be seen by their color, density and growth rate (as you
remarked) and their shape and location as well.

Later on I got some dwarf hairgrass that I planted all around the tank,
a dwarf chain sword, corkscrew vallisneria and java moss. Not sure if
my moss was low quality. It was all brown and it doesn't seem to be
growing in my tank. I'm thinking about getting rid of the moss.

I also got 6 ottos. They're really cute and active little cleaners. Too
bad they don't eat the hairy algae. One of them died a day later. But
the other five are still there, happy and getting fat. I don't feed
them much, just some cucumber and algae wafer once a week.

And just recently, I started injecting CO2 with the hagen natural plant
grow system. (the yeast based with the ladder-type diffuser). I wanted
to start slow. They recommend one per 20gal. So since I have 55 I could
do no harm, right?


Right, unless you kH is very low.

Well, right now, my KH is at 4 and my pH seems to be at 6.6. That's
about 30ppm of CO2.
My ottos seem happy and healthy. I can't believe that the CO2 system
for 20gal tanks is making such a big difference on my tank. My water is
not splashing by I have a spray bar right under the surface that moves
the water around.

Do I really have 30ppm of CO2 and should I be worried about my ottos or
could it be that my pH is lower for a different reason and my CO2 not
that high?


I'd have to check the conversion formula (and I'm not at home) but I'll let
other more experienced aquatic gardeners remark.

I also have a bunch of little snails. They don't seem to be eating any
plants yet. I get rid of them during my weekly water change (25%). But
there are more appearing. Are they dangerous to my tank? I don't mind
having them if they don't do any damage.


The amount of trouble they can cause depends on the species and their food
supply, so I don't think a definitive answer can be made. Generally, they
are more likely to cause you grief (pond snails, mystery snails etc) than
not (Ramshorns, Malasian Trumpets etc).

I'm planning to get some shrimp, rasboras, gouramis and tetras. I would
like to get neons or cardinals but if my water conditions are not too
good then maybe blood fin tetras.


All these fish's requirements are very similar, to avoid overly hard water,
and even then, it's sometimes just a question of acclimation.

Do I need my tank densly planted before I get the tetras?


No.

Any recommendations?


I would stabilize the pH, and ensure that you're through the cycling before
adding small delicate fish. Also take note of the difference between your
tetra-idealic conditions and the conditions from where they came from (were
born and were raised in). Ideal conditions can kill quite effectively when
the fish has acclimated to something completely different.

From your cross-post, you can expect a variety of responses. Good luck.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Thank you!



  #4   Report Post  
Old 24-01-2006, 10:59 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
Dogma Discharge
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions


Hi Netmax, long time. Are you well?
--
Kind Regards
Cameron

"NetMax" wrote in message
...
"Shorty" wrote in message
oups.com...
I got a 55gal tank about a month ago. It has a AGA tripe-strip
fluorescent Iight (120 watts) and fluorite. The light is on for about
12 hours. I'm using an eheim ecco 2234 filter.

First I put in a couple of small amazon swords, a couple of anubias,
java ferns and anacharis/elodea. My tap water has a very low KH (1 or
2) and my pH registered at around 7.2/7.4.

After the first week, I bought some driftwood at a LFS. I asked the guy
if I needed to treat the wood before I put it in the aquarium. I know
some places sell driftwood already treated so it would not leech any
chemicals in the water. The guy said that I just need to rinse it and
that's it.
Well, when I put the driftood in my tank, the pH suddenly dropped to to
around 6 or lower (my ph test kit doesn't show lower than that) and the
water became yellowish.


The driftwood was probably fine to put in a stable tank (3-6dkH), but it
yours. it took you over the edge.

Since I wanted to have tetras, I didn't mind the tannin in the water.
But I wanted to get my pH more stable so I added some sodium
bicarbonate. This brought my KH to about 4-5 and my pH to about 7.2. I
was happy again.


You might want to look for a more stable method, such as crushed coral in

a
canister filter.

I presume you are finished cycling, or if there are no fish, then you
haven't started yet. This is important to know.

The anacharis started growing fast. The interesting thing is that the
new stems that grew from the old ones had their leaves more open,
sparser and lighter green that the original ones I bought. The anubias
were growing very slowly. The amazon swords shooted stocks and new
leaves. But the java ferns were not looking good. They didn't seem to
grow at all and started getting a lot of ugly hairy algae. I left the
fern that started having little leaves growing and got rid of the other
one that was full of algae.
I planted the java farnes on the driftwood. Were they too high and too
close to the light? Parts of the new baby leaves look transparent
green. Should I plant the java fern in the corner with less light?


Yes. A sudden significant change in light intensity can damage plants.
Slow growing plants sometimes have the biggest trouble with this. Faster
growing plants recover more quickly by throwing out more light appropriate
leaves. This can be seen by their color, density and growth rate (as you
remarked) and their shape and location as well.

Later on I got some dwarf hairgrass that I planted all around the tank,
a dwarf chain sword, corkscrew vallisneria and java moss. Not sure if
my moss was low quality. It was all brown and it doesn't seem to be
growing in my tank. I'm thinking about getting rid of the moss.

I also got 6 ottos. They're really cute and active little cleaners. Too
bad they don't eat the hairy algae. One of them died a day later. But
the other five are still there, happy and getting fat. I don't feed
them much, just some cucumber and algae wafer once a week.

And just recently, I started injecting CO2 with the hagen natural plant
grow system. (the yeast based with the ladder-type diffuser). I wanted
to start slow. They recommend one per 20gal. So since I have 55 I could
do no harm, right?


Right, unless you kH is very low.

Well, right now, my KH is at 4 and my pH seems to be at 6.6. That's
about 30ppm of CO2.
My ottos seem happy and healthy. I can't believe that the CO2 system
for 20gal tanks is making such a big difference on my tank. My water is
not splashing by I have a spray bar right under the surface that moves
the water around.

Do I really have 30ppm of CO2 and should I be worried about my ottos or
could it be that my pH is lower for a different reason and my CO2 not
that high?


I'd have to check the conversion formula (and I'm not at home) but I'll

let
other more experienced aquatic gardeners remark.

I also have a bunch of little snails. They don't seem to be eating any
plants yet. I get rid of them during my weekly water change (25%). But
there are more appearing. Are they dangerous to my tank? I don't mind
having them if they don't do any damage.


The amount of trouble they can cause depends on the species and their food
supply, so I don't think a definitive answer can be made. Generally, they
are more likely to cause you grief (pond snails, mystery snails etc) than
not (Ramshorns, Malasian Trumpets etc).

I'm planning to get some shrimp, rasboras, gouramis and tetras. I would
like to get neons or cardinals but if my water conditions are not too
good then maybe blood fin tetras.


All these fish's requirements are very similar, to avoid overly hard

water,
and even then, it's sometimes just a question of acclimation.

Do I need my tank densly planted before I get the tetras?


No.

Any recommendations?


I would stabilize the pH, and ensure that you're through the cycling

before
adding small delicate fish. Also take note of the difference between your
tetra-idealic conditions and the conditions from where they came from

(were
born and were raised in). Ideal conditions can kill quite effectively

when
the fish has acclimated to something completely different.

From your cross-post, you can expect a variety of responses. Good luck.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Thank you!





  #5   Report Post  
Old 24-01-2006, 09:09 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

I have a question about CO2 as well so I will throw it in here. If I
had a plant-only tank, say an aqua garden or a growing tank for plants
I want to sell, is there such a thing as too much CO2? I know that
adding lots of CO2 will lower the Ph, so there is obviously an upper
limit to how much CO2 could be injected. What about piping CO2 to the
base of the plants and bubbling the gas up through the leaves? I guess
I am trying to think of a way to grow fast growing plants faster...
Other than effecting water chemistry, could there be such a thing as
too much CO2, even in a hypothetical situation?

Any mad scientist ideas out there? I have a 10g tank sitting in my
garage just waiting for a haribrained scheme.



  #6   Report Post  
Old 24-01-2006, 09:43 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
NetMax
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

"Dogma Discharge" wrote in message
...

Hi Netmax, long time. Are you well?
--
Kind Regards
Cameron


Great, thanks Cameron. I don't know which group you're posting from so I
guess I'll leave it cross-posted *apologies to everyone else*.

In regards to excess CO2 (adam @gmail), my understanding is that it's a case
of diminishing returns. The higher the concentration, the quicker it
dissipates and the less increase you get from greater concentrations, but
you should wait for more informed and experienced comments.
--
www.NetMax.tk


"NetMax" wrote in message
...
"Shorty" wrote in message
oups.com...
I got a 55gal tank about a month ago. It has a AGA tripe-strip
fluorescent Iight (120 watts) and fluorite. The light is on for about
12 hours. I'm using an eheim ecco 2234 filter.

First I put in a couple of small amazon swords, a couple of anubias,
java ferns and anacharis/elodea. My tap water has a very low KH (1 or
2) and my pH registered at around 7.2/7.4.

After the first week, I bought some driftwood at a LFS. I asked the guy
if I needed to treat the wood before I put it in the aquarium. I know
some places sell driftwood already treated so it would not leech any
chemicals in the water. The guy said that I just need to rinse it and
that's it.
Well, when I put the driftood in my tank, the pH suddenly dropped to to
around 6 or lower (my ph test kit doesn't show lower than that) and the
water became yellowish.


The driftwood was probably fine to put in a stable tank (3-6dkH), but it
yours. it took you over the edge.

Since I wanted to have tetras, I didn't mind the tannin in the water.
But I wanted to get my pH more stable so I added some sodium
bicarbonate. This brought my KH to about 4-5 and my pH to about 7.2. I
was happy again.


You might want to look for a more stable method, such as crushed coral in

a
canister filter.

I presume you are finished cycling, or if there are no fish, then you
haven't started yet. This is important to know.

The anacharis started growing fast. The interesting thing is that the
new stems that grew from the old ones had their leaves more open,
sparser and lighter green that the original ones I bought. The anubias
were growing very slowly. The amazon swords shooted stocks and new
leaves. But the java ferns were not looking good. They didn't seem to
grow at all and started getting a lot of ugly hairy algae. I left the
fern that started having little leaves growing and got rid of the other
one that was full of algae.
I planted the java farnes on the driftwood. Were they too high and too
close to the light? Parts of the new baby leaves look transparent
green. Should I plant the java fern in the corner with less light?


Yes. A sudden significant change in light intensity can damage plants.
Slow growing plants sometimes have the biggest trouble with this. Faster
growing plants recover more quickly by throwing out more light
appropriate
leaves. This can be seen by their color, density and growth rate (as you
remarked) and their shape and location as well.

Later on I got some dwarf hairgrass that I planted all around the tank,
a dwarf chain sword, corkscrew vallisneria and java moss. Not sure if
my moss was low quality. It was all brown and it doesn't seem to be
growing in my tank. I'm thinking about getting rid of the moss.

I also got 6 ottos. They're really cute and active little cleaners. Too
bad they don't eat the hairy algae. One of them died a day later. But
the other five are still there, happy and getting fat. I don't feed
them much, just some cucumber and algae wafer once a week.

And just recently, I started injecting CO2 with the hagen natural plant
grow system. (the yeast based with the ladder-type diffuser). I wanted
to start slow. They recommend one per 20gal. So since I have 55 I could
do no harm, right?


Right, unless you kH is very low.

Well, right now, my KH is at 4 and my pH seems to be at 6.6. That's
about 30ppm of CO2.
My ottos seem happy and healthy. I can't believe that the CO2 system
for 20gal tanks is making such a big difference on my tank. My water is
not splashing by I have a spray bar right under the surface that moves
the water around.

Do I really have 30ppm of CO2 and should I be worried about my ottos or
could it be that my pH is lower for a different reason and my CO2 not
that high?


I'd have to check the conversion formula (and I'm not at home) but I'll

let
other more experienced aquatic gardeners remark.

I also have a bunch of little snails. They don't seem to be eating any
plants yet. I get rid of them during my weekly water change (25%). But
there are more appearing. Are they dangerous to my tank? I don't mind
having them if they don't do any damage.


The amount of trouble they can cause depends on the species and their
food
supply, so I don't think a definitive answer can be made. Generally,
they
are more likely to cause you grief (pond snails, mystery snails etc) than
not (Ramshorns, Malasian Trumpets etc).

I'm planning to get some shrimp, rasboras, gouramis and tetras. I would
like to get neons or cardinals but if my water conditions are not too
good then maybe blood fin tetras.


All these fish's requirements are very similar, to avoid overly hard

water,
and even then, it's sometimes just a question of acclimation.

Do I need my tank densly planted before I get the tetras?


No.

Any recommendations?


I would stabilize the pH, and ensure that you're through the cycling

before
adding small delicate fish. Also take note of the difference between
your
tetra-idealic conditions and the conditions from where they came from

(were
born and were raised in). Ideal conditions can kill quite effectively

when
the fish has acclimated to something completely different.

From your cross-post, you can expect a variety of responses. Good luck.
--
www.NetMax.tk

Thank you!







  #8   Report Post  
Old 25-01-2006, 12:33 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
Nestor 10
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

youhavereachedadam wrote in message
oups.com...
I have a question about CO2 as well so I will throw it in here. If I
had a plant-only tank, say an aqua garden or a growing tank for plants
I want to sell, is there such a thing as too much CO2?...


"Elaine T" responded in message
om...

Yep. You will suffocate your fish with too much CO2. I forget
the amount that kills them, but it's quite possble to do.


Elaine might have missed this part in her response as there are no fish
involved. The numbers that she can't remember for fish (only since it was
brought up) is about 40 ppm. Such a concentration does not suffocate the
fish, instead severely limiting or even prohibiting the release of CO2 from
their bloodstreams in respiration. If the bloodstream cannot release its CO2
then acidosis occurs within the body, triggering detrimental systemic
responses.

youhavereachedadam continues with...

I know that adding lots of CO2 will lower the Ph, so there is obviously
an upper limit to how much CO2 could be injected...


The amount that will dissolve in the water is dependent on many factors, and
the combination of all of them will most likely _not_ allow the
concentration in a tank to reach levels that will prove harmful to plants
unless you were to completely seal the tank. NetMax is correct in his
assumption that at some level of injection you will reach a point of
diminishing returns.

Concentrations of 30 - 40 ppm have been suggested as good for plants by such
as Dennerle, Tropika and members of the Aquatic Gardeners Association.

What about piping CO2 to the base of the plants and bubbling the
gas up through the leaves?...


Speaking of the AGA, their mailing list (archived at
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/ ) recently discussed the pros and
cons of CO2 "misting" as it affects plant growth, with emperical evidence
pointing to the PRO side of the argument. My own experience with misting
lies with using the filter's impellor to not only dissolve CO2 into the
water but provide a fine mist of undissolved bubbles (I tend to yeast
reactors to provide a more - than - ample supply of the gas) with fantastic
results over the last few years.

Any mad scientist ideas out there? I have a 10g tank sitting in my
garage just waiting for a haribrained scheme.


With a 10- Gallon tank and optimal growth conditions, you may as well sell
your excess - you'll certainly be pruning often enough ;-) ...

--
-Y-

Nestor 10

".chkr" is for mail-bots


  #9   Report Post  
Old 25-01-2006, 03:49 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
NetMax
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

"Nestor 10" wrote in message
. ..
youhavereachedadam wrote in message
oups.com...
I have a question about CO2 as well so I will throw it in here. If I
had a plant-only tank, say an aqua garden or a growing tank for plants
I want to sell, is there such a thing as too much CO2?...


"Elaine T" responded in message
om...

Yep. You will suffocate your fish with too much CO2. I forget
the amount that kills them, but it's quite possble to do.


Elaine might have missed this part in her response as there are no fish
involved. The numbers that she can't remember for fish (only since it
was brought up) is about 40 ppm. Such a concentration does not
suffocate the fish, instead severely limiting or even prohibiting the
release of CO2 from their bloodstreams in respiration. If the
bloodstream cannot release its CO2 then acidosis occurs within the
body, triggering detrimental systemic responses.

youhavereachedadam continues with...

I know that adding lots of CO2 will lower the Ph, so there is
obviously
an upper limit to how much CO2 could be injected...


The amount that will dissolve in the water is dependent on many
factors, and the combination of all of them will most likely _not_
allow the concentration in a tank to reach levels that will prove
harmful to plants unless you were to completely seal the tank. NetMax
is correct in his assumption that at some level of injection you will
reach a point of diminishing returns.

Concentrations of 30 - 40 ppm have been suggested as good for plants by
such as Dennerle, Tropika and members of the Aquatic Gardeners
Association.

What about piping CO2 to the base of the plants and bubbling the
gas up through the leaves?...


Speaking of the AGA, their mailing list (archived at
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/ ) recently discussed the pros
and cons of CO2 "misting" as it affects plant growth, with emperical
evidence pointing to the PRO side of the argument. My own experience
with misting lies with using the filter's impellor to not only dissolve
CO2 into the water but provide a fine mist of undissolved bubbles (I
tend to yeast reactors to provide a more - than - ample supply of the
gas) with fantastic results over the last few years.

Any mad scientist ideas out there? I have a 10g tank sitting in my
garage just waiting for a haribrained scheme.


With a 10- Gallon tank and optimal growth conditions, you may as well
sell your excess - you'll certainly be pruning often enough ;-) ...

--
-Y-

Nestor 10

".chkr" is for mail-bots



Greetings Nestor
welcome back?
If you want to trim this cross-post, I'm mostly in rafm (or aa but rafp
is usually too technical for my plant-growing aspirations, which are
mostly met by keeping them watered ;~).
--
www.NetMax.tk


  #10   Report Post  
Old 25-01-2006, 05:41 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
Frank
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

Been what, 2.5 - 3 years(?) glad to see you back Nestor 10
............ Frank



  #11   Report Post  
Old 25-01-2006, 06:58 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
Nestor 10
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

"Frank" wrote in message
oups.com...
Been what, 2.5 - 3 years(?) glad to see you back Nestor 10
........... Frank


Thanks, Frank.

Good memory, by the way...

--

-Y-

Nestor 10

".chkr" is for mail-bots


  #12   Report Post  
Old 25-01-2006, 02:13 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
Adam
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

I was reading a magazine last night (tropical fish hobby something?)
the section on planted tanks said that anacharis is known for its color
changing growth, usually because it is farmed in natural light and
changing this causes the different color, nothing to worry about...
just may not be the color you wanted.

  #13   Report Post  
Old 25-01-2006, 07:04 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
Elaine T
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

Nestor 10 wrote:
youhavereachedadam wrote in message
oups.com...

I have a question about CO2 as well so I will throw it in here. If I
had a plant-only tank, say an aqua garden or a growing tank for plants
I want to sell, is there such a thing as too much CO2?...



"Elaine T" responded in message
om...


Yep. You will suffocate your fish with too much CO2. I forget
the amount that kills them, but it's quite possble to do.



Elaine might have missed this part in her response as there are no fish
involved. The numbers that she can't remember for fish (only since it was
brought up) is about 40 ppm. Such a concentration does not suffocate the
fish, instead severely limiting or even prohibiting the release of CO2 from
their bloodstreams in respiration. If the bloodstream cannot release its CO2
then acidosis occurs within the body, triggering detrimental systemic
responses.


Ah. I did miss the plants only bit. R.a.f.m is usually a fish NG. I'd
have probably picked it up if I'd been reading r.a.f.p instead. Thanks
for reminding me of the 40 ppm limit - I generally stay below 30 ppm for
safety when I'm running CO2.

As for my use of the word "suffocate", if you want to nitpick, high CO2
and the resultant acidosis interferes with the ability of hemoglobin to
carry oxygen. Hemoglobin undergoes an allosteric change when the blood
pH rises in the gills/lungs from release of CO2. That structural change
causes it to become a more efficient oxygen carrier. Without the
release of CO2, the blood stays acidic, hemoglobin functions less
efficiently, and the animal becomes oxygen deprived and (among other
problems) suffocates.

Another problem with extremely high CO2 is that the partial pressure of
O2 can be reduced, particularly in warm water. Lowered 02 exascerbates
the problems caused by excess CO2, further contributing to "suffocation."

youhavereachedadam continues with...


I know that adding lots of CO2 will lower the Ph, so there is obviously
an upper limit to how much CO2 could be injected...



The amount that will dissolve in the water is dependent on many factors, and
the combination of all of them will most likely _not_ allow the
concentration in a tank to reach levels that will prove harmful to plants
unless you were to completely seal the tank. NetMax is correct in his
assumption that at some level of injection you will reach a point of
diminishing returns.

Concentrations of 30 - 40 ppm have been suggested as good for plants by such
as Dennerle, Tropika and members of the Aquatic Gardeners Association.


I have always wondered whether photosynthesis becomes light limited
again 30-40 ppm CO2. I'm always fascinated at how fast my submerged
pond plants grow under the simple conditions of sunlight, nitrogen from
the goldfish, and atmospheric CO2.

What about piping CO2 to the base of the plants and bubbling the
gas up through the leaves?...



Speaking of the AGA, their mailing list (archived at
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/ ) recently discussed the pros and
cons of CO2 "misting" as it affects plant growth, with emperical evidence
pointing to the PRO side of the argument. My own experience with misting
lies with using the filter's impellor to not only dissolve CO2 into the
water but provide a fine mist of undissolved bubbles (I tend to yeast
reactors to provide a more - than - ample supply of the gas) with fantastic
results over the last few years.


The AGA mailing list is an outstanding resource. The subscription
website is on http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants. I
only lurk there - I can't afford the snazzy equipment to really comment
on much.

Any mad scientist ideas out there? I have a 10g tank sitting in my
garage just waiting for a haribrained scheme.



With a 10- Gallon tank and optimal growth conditions, you may as well sell
your excess - you'll certainly be pruning often enough ;-) ...


--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
  #14   Report Post  
Old 26-01-2006, 05:26 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

In article .com,
Adam wrote:
I was reading a magazine last night (tropical fish hobby something?)


Uh yeah, something.

the section on planted tanks said that anacharis is known for its color
changing growth, usually because it is farmed in natural light and
changing this causes the different color, nothing to worry about...
just may not be the color you wanted.


Lots of plants have red growth tpis if exposed to bright enough light;
right under a tubesl, I mean inches away, from any fluorescent tube is
usually enough to do it. Hornwort, mriophyllum, hygrophilia, Mexican
oaf leaf (sort of a new world water sprite) nd red marble val will
all go red to varying amounts as a function of the amount of light.

Things like Ludwigia repens will srtay green(ish) in moderate light but
scream scarlet under intense light. Other more exotic ludwigias are the
same: glandulosis is downright purple under good light, olive green otherwise,
L. arcuata similarly so, although its more red than purple. Neither
are common now but seem to be around wherever Tropica plants are sold.

http://images.aquaria.net/plants/Lud.../P0011900s.jpg
http://www.tropica.com/productcard_1.asp?id=035

he point is various plants have various amounts of redness. It's pretty
normal for almsot all aquatic plants to have some for there are more than
just green photosynthetic pigments.

In fact, when nitrates are low and plants cannot produce enough green
photosynthetic pigment they tend to make more red; in this sense it
can be used as in indicaor of low nitrate.

So how do you tell low nitrate red from "it's just strong light" red?
Expereinces. Just observe your plants, you'll figure out whats normal
for them and you'll learn to recognize one from the other.


--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net
  #15   Report Post  
Old 26-01-2006, 05:32 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,alt.aquaria
Richard Sexton
 
Posts: n/a
Default pH and KH - Too much CO2? and other questions

The AGA mailing list is an outstanding resource. The subscription
website is on http://www.actwin.com/mailman/listinfo/aquatic-plants. I
only lurk there - I can't afford the snazzy equipment to really comment
on much.


Me either but that doesn't stop me.

--
Need Mercedes parts ? - http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home page: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net


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