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Old 26-01-2006, 01:37 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Shorty
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my
filter for the bacteria.
Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank
or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3?

I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My
main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the
fish healthy.


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Old 26-01-2006, 01:48 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Dogma Discharge
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank


Apparently having a *heavily* planted tank will buffer the cycle process but
IMO it is very necessary to have a filter with loads of bio and mechanical
media. Seeing that you have little plants at this stage I would recommend
you get a filter, Aquaclears are my favourite, in my years of keeping fish
these HOB filters do a spiffy job.
--
Kind Regards
Cameron

"Shorty" wrote in message
ups.com...
I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my
filter for the bacteria.
Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank
or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3?

I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My
main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the
fish healthy.



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Old 26-01-2006, 06:32 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Elaine T
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

Dogma Discharge wrote:
Apparently having a *heavily* planted tank will buffer the cycle process but
IMO it is very necessary to have a filter with loads of bio and mechanical
media. Seeing that you have little plants at this stage I would recommend
you get a filter, Aquaclears are my favourite, in my years of keeping fish
these HOB filters do a spiffy job.
--
Kind Regards
Cameron

"Shorty" wrote in message
ups.com...

I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my
filter for the bacteria.
Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank
or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3?

I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My
main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the
fish healthy.


If you only have a few plants, add the bio balls. If 50% of the gravel
or more is covered with fast-growing plants, you can start reducing the
amount of biofiltration. At 80% of the gravel covered in mature,
fast-growing plants, you can consider removing the filter entirely and
replacing it with a prefiltered powerhead. I've already done this in
one of my tanks and will probably do it for another - it's nice not to
have to do anything but fertilize and change water. ;-)

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com
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Old 26-01-2006, 06:41 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Shorty
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

So, you basically move the water around with the powerhead without any
filtration?

That's cool. I suppose I need to wait and get my bio-filtration going
until my plants are more established and dense.

It would be great to run a tank with plants as the only filter.

thanks for the info!

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Old 26-01-2006, 09:54 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Elaine T
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

Shorty wrote:
So, you basically move the water around with the powerhead without any
filtration?


Yep. Or an empty filter, or an airstone for small tanks where I'm using
Flourish Excel.

That's cool. I suppose I need to wait and get my bio-filtration going
until my plants are more established and dense.


Yes. Don't try it without lots of established plants.

It would be great to run a tank with plants as the only filter.

thanks for the info!


You're welcome. It's a lot of fun to get a balanced tank going. I tend
to consider removing the filter in lightly stocked tanks with small,
fully grown fish where I can feed very lightly. I wait until the plants
are growing well enough that nitrate goes to zero if I don't add any.
Then I remove the biomedia from the filter gradually, testing for
ammonia as I go. Once the filter is empty, you can use it for water
circulation or switch to a powerhead. You do have to keep the plants
healthy. If their growth slows down, you no longer have the safety net
of a filter.

--
Elaine T __
http://eethomp.com/fish.html '__
rec.aquaria.* FAQ http://faq.thekrib.com


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Old 27-01-2006, 05:47 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Frank
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

Shorty wrote,
I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my
filter for the bacteria.
Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank
or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3?


A heavily planted tank and a lite bio-load you might get away without a
bio-filter. But, you might have to do more water changes more often.
Keep in mind that ammonia and nitrites are not the only thing a filter
is needed for. You still have DOCs (dissolved organic compounds) and
solid particulate waste to deal with. A build-up of eather, your water
quality slowly deteriorates. I think my tanks are pleasant to look at
because they are heavily planted, but they are *fish* tanks.
As for as filter media goes - there is three things to look for; SSA
(Specific Surface Area), void space and cleanability. Gravel used for a
filter media has a surface area of about 100 to 200 sq. meters per
cubic meter, pood void space, and really hard to clean - making it (at
best) a poor filter media. Plastic has 250 to 300 SSA, ceramic 300 to
350 SSA, matting 350 to 400 SSA, and sponge foam 400 to 500 SSA, void
space just right, and really easy to clean. Why spend the $s on plastic
or ceramic bio-ball type filter media when a much better media is
cheaper (sponge foam)? .................. Frank

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Old 27-01-2006, 10:20 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Dick
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

On 26 Jan 2006 05:37:57 -0800, "Shorty"
wrote:

I am debating whether I need to put any bio-ball type media in my
filter for the bacteria.
Do I need to build-up a bacteria colony in my filter for a planted tank
or will the plants take care of the ammonia, NO2 and NO3?

I have only five fish in the tank and not very densly planted tank. My
main concern right now is to get the plants growing while keeping the
fish healthy.


There seems to be different opinions on the subject. I pulled my 4
bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the
filters. Further, I don't even turn the filters off anymore, but pull
a cartridge and substitute a clean one. I have never lost my
bacteria. All 5 of my tanks are planted with dense fish populations,
that is more than 1 inch per gallon.

dick
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Old 31-01-2006, 04:20 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Frank
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

Dick wrote,
I pulled my 4
bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the
filters.


Ever check your DOC levels?

.........pull
a cartridge and substitute a clean one. I have never lost my
bacteria. All 5 of my tanks are planted with dense fish populations,
that is more than 1 inch per gallon.


It only takes one sq. meter of surface area with a bio-film to
metabolise nearly one gram of ammonia per day. Filters should remove
*all* three forms of pollution; dissolved compounds such as ammonia,
inorganic pollutants such as phosphate and DOCs, and solid particulate
waste. By removing all the filtering media at once and replacing it
with new, you *are* loosing all the bacteria within your filter. Your
filter becomes nothing but a machanical filter, removing some of the
solid particulate waste, like a pre-filter. If the cartridge, now your
pre-filter isn't cleaned or replaced at least weekly, the solid waste
decomposes within the media and is pumped back into your tank as
dissolved pollutants.DOCs start to turn the water yellow over time and
the water quality drops, unless you do a *lot* of water changing. Mean
while, the heterotroph bacteria that should be in the filter, is now in
your tank at high levels, along with ectoparasites such as flukes and
protozoa which thrive in high organic loaded water. High organics also
stress the fishs immune system and robs the oxygen from the water.

Just my opinion................... Frank

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Old 31-01-2006, 04:40 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Koi-Lo
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank


"Frank" wrote in message
ups.com...
Dick wrote,
I pulled my 4
bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the
filters.


Ever check your DOC levels?

========================
A friend told me small snails would clog her bio-wheel filters. I can't
picture this since I never used them. They were probably going after the
bacterial coating. She finally replaced them with Aquaclears that I
recommended.

--
Koi-Lo.... frugal ponding since 1995...
Aquariums since 1952
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
Troll Information:
http://tinyurl.com/9zbh
~~~ }((((o ~~~ }{{{{o ~~~ }(((((o




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Old 31-01-2006, 06:42 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Altum
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

The only thing plants don't remove from your list is solid particulate
waste and much of that settles in the root zone. A prefilter takes
care of anything floating in the water.



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Old 01-02-2006, 08:52 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Frank
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

Altum wrote,
The only thing plants don't remove from your list is solid particulate
waste and much of that settles in the root zone.


Plants do not remove inorganic pollutants such as DOCs (Dissolved
Organic Compounds = uneaten foods and fish waste) from the water
column. As a matter of fact, a 20% weekly water change still leaves
about 30 days of accumulated DOC pollutants in the tank. DOC levels can
be determined by comparing the differences between a chemical hardness
test and the TDS (total dissolved solid) reading from a conductivity
meter. As the DOCs start to accumulate over time, the water starts to
turn yellow and the water quality starts to drop.

A prefilter takes
care of anything floating in the water.


Very little solid waste should enter the bio-section. A pre-filter
traps this waste so it can't, or shouldn't. But, if the pre-filter
isn't cleaned at least a couple of times a week, the current (gph -
flow rate) within the filter dissolves the solids (DOCs) much quicker
than if they were left within the tank. As it is, left within the
pre-filter, the filter becomes the source of organic pollution and is
then pumped back into the tank.

solid particulate
waste and much of that settles in the root zone.


Pathogenic bacteria such as Aermonas and Pseudomonas bacteria break
down solids and are actually opportunistic Heterotroph bacteria. If
solid waste is left to accumulate within the tank their numbers grow.
Once their numbers are high enough and conditions are right,
opportunistic pathogens turn their attention to the fish. This happens
way more than people think - one of the things it's called is Fin and
Tail Rot! ................ Frank

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Old 03-02-2006, 05:04 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
fusQuanto
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank



Frank wrote:
Dick wrote,

I pulled my 4
bio wheels as they were not turning without constant cleaning of the
filters.



Ever check your DOC levels?


.........pull
a cartridge and substitute a clean one. I have never lost my
bacteria. All 5 of my tanks are planted with dense fish populations,
that is more than 1 inch per gallon.



It only takes one sq. meter of surface area with a bio-film to
metabolise nearly one gram of ammonia per day. Filters should remove
*all* three forms of pollution; dissolved compounds such as ammonia,
inorganic pollutants such as phosphate and DOCs, and solid particulate
waste. By removing all the filtering media at once and replacing it
with new, you *are* loosing all the bacteria within your filter. Your
filter becomes nothing but a machanical filter, removing some of the
solid particulate waste, like a pre-filter. If the cartridge, now your
pre-filter isn't cleaned or replaced at least weekly, the solid waste
decomposes within the media and is pumped back into your tank as
dissolved pollutants.DOCs start to turn the water yellow over time and
the water quality drops, unless you do a *lot* of water changing. Mean
while, the heterotroph bacteria that should be in the filter, is now in
your tank at high levels, along with ectoparasites such as flukes and
protozoa which thrive in high organic loaded water. High organics also
stress the fishs immune system and robs the oxygen from the water.

Just my opinion................... Frank


well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon
from filters. i have a hangon filter, a biowheel 350 or something, i
removed the wheels to reduce surface turbulence. is there a certain
time that it is "safe" to put the carbon back in? (safe meaning that it
wont absorb up the fertilizers). also, melafix requires taking out the
carbon too.

do you recommend using something other than carbon? my filter has extra
pockets to fill up with whatever media you want. should i put something
in there, is anything needed? my tank is 3 weeks old, moderately to
heavily planted, ~15 fish, mostly loaches
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Old 03-02-2006, 08:17 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Frank
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

fusQuanto wrote,
well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon
from filters..........
also, melafix requires taking out the
carbon too.
is there a certain
time that it is "safe" to put the carbon back in?


The only time carbon is needed is to remove dyes, medications and
odors.

i have a hangon filter, a biowheel 350 or something.............


The break down time of DOCs is the most time consuming, so
bio-filtering is improved the longer the polluted water is held within
the media. With the amount of SSA (specific surface area) on a
bio-wheel, it makes them hard to beat. Plus they hold the polluted
water much longer than just being pumped through a filter.

do you recommend using something other than carbon? my filter has extra
pockets to fill up with whatever media you want. should i put something
in there, is anything needed?


There are three major factors affecting filter media; SSA, void space
and cleanability. Out of all the diferent filter medias (gravel,
plastic, ceramic, matting and foam sponge), foam sponge has the most
SSA, best void space and easyer to clean! I use those green or brown 3M
scrub pads for pre-filter media within my filters and 2 or 3 cut-to-fit
3/4" foam sponges. Pre filters are cleaned at least every other day.
That keeps those 2 or 3 bio-media foam sponges clean enough that I
don't have to squeeze them out in the change water but once or twice a
month............ Frank

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Old 03-02-2006, 08:53 AM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
fusQuanto
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank



Frank wrote:
fusQuanto wrote,

well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon


from filters..........


also, melafix requires taking out the
carbon too.
is there a certain
time that it is "safe" to put the carbon back in?



The only time carbon is needed is to remove dyes, medications and
odors.


i have a hangon filter, a biowheel 350 or something.............



The break down time of DOCs is the most time consuming, so
bio-filtering is improved the longer the polluted water is held within
the media. With the amount of SSA (specific surface area) on a
bio-wheel, it makes them hard to beat. Plus they hold the polluted
water much longer than just being pumped through a filter.


do you recommend using something other than carbon? my filter has extra
pockets to fill up with whatever media you want. should i put something
in there, is anything needed?



There are three major factors affecting filter media; SSA, void space
and cleanability. Out of all the diferent filter medias (gravel,
plastic, ceramic, matting and foam sponge), foam sponge has the most
SSA, best void space and easyer to clean! I use those green or brown 3M
scrub pads for pre-filter media within my filters and 2 or 3 cut-to-fit
3/4" foam sponges. Pre filters are cleaned at least every other day.
That keeps those 2 or 3 bio-media foam sponges clean enough that I
don't have to squeeze them out in the change water but once or twice a
month............ Frank


what filter do you have?
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Old 03-02-2006, 02:16 PM posted to rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants,rec.aquaria.freshwater.misc,alt.aquaria
Richard Sexton
 
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Default Cycling and Bio-Filter in Planted Tank

In article .com,
Frank wrote:
fusQuanto wrote,
well, the bottles of liquid fertilizers tell you to remove the carbon
from filters..........


That makes no sense. Who says this?

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