If you have sof****er (gH, kH 3) and employ DIY CO2 at 15ppm,
what do yo do to increase gH and kH? pH is at 6.8

To increase just the KH you can add sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). To
increase KH and GH in equal amounts you can add calcium carbonate. calcium
carbonate is probably best because your plants will need calcium which you
will be short of in sof****er. Also you can add magnesium sulphate (epson
salts) which will increase just the GH.

For my planted tank a aim for a KH of about 5dH and a GH of about 6dH. the
calcium carbonate i add takes both GH and KH to 5dH and the magnesium
sulphate i add then takes GH to 6dH. With CO2 injection at about 25ppm it
gives me an pH of about 6.8

Be careful when adding anything which changes your KH as it will change your
pH as well. Add it slowly.

Marcus

Where do you get Calcium Carbonate and what type of volume are you
talking about??

WF


On Thu, 10 Apr 2003 20:31:48 +0100, "Marcus Tait"
wrote:

To increase just the KH you can add sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). To
increase KH and GH in equal amounts you can add calcium carbonate. calcium
carbonate is probably best because your plants will need calcium which you
will be short of in sof****er. Also you can add magnesium sulphate (epson
salts) which will increase just the GH.

For my planted tank a aim for a KH of about 5dH and a GH of about 6dH. the
calcium carbonate i add takes both GH and KH to 5dH and the magnesium
sulphate i add then takes GH to 6dH. With CO2 injection at about 25ppm it
gives me an pH of about 6.8

Be careful when adding anything which changes your KH as it will change your
pH as well. Add it slowly.

"WhiskerFish" wrote in message
...
Marcus

Where do you get Calcium Carbonate and what type of volume are you
talking about??

Aragonite sand from an LFS, Coral, or dolomite from the garden shop.

Bob

"alex crouvier" wrote in message
...
If you have sof****er (gH, kH 3) and employ DIY CO2 at 15ppm,
what do yo do to increase gH and kH? pH is at 6.8


Nice pure water. Is the question regarding an existing tank with CO2 or
adding CO2 to a tank with that water?

It is my understanding that you need to maintain a kH of 3-4 to prevent a pH
crash when adding CO2

If you have CO2 I assume you have a planted tank, I've seen a gH of 3
recommended as a minimum for planted tanks.

What kind of fish? That's pretty soft water, fine for some bad for other
fish. Baking soda will raise both the kH and pH.

Bob

"alex crouvier" wrote in message
...
If you have sof****er (gH, kH 3) and employ DIY CO2 at 15ppm,
what do yo do to increase gH and kH? pH is at 6.8

Regarding GH, it's more important to know the individual levels of Ca and Mg
then the combined GH. If you have a sufficient ratio of Ca and Mg, then a GH
of 3 is fine. But if almost all the GH is made up of Ca, then you should add
some MgSO4. Contact your water utility to find out these mineral levels.
__
Alex

Is there a way to increase KH without increasing pH? or do they always go
hand-in-hand?

I have soft water (tap seems to vary between GH/KH=2 and GH/KH=3), but they
add something in the water to make the pH very high (fresh out of tap is
close to 8.0). so when I do water change, it keeps my tank quite alkaline
(somewhere in the 7.5 region). I would like to increase KH one or two
degrees, but really do not want the water to be more alkaline than it
already is.

linda

"Marcus Tait" wrote in message
...
To increase just the KH you can add sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). To
increase KH and GH in equal amounts you can add calcium carbonate. calcium
carbonate is probably best because your plants will need calcium which you
will be short of in sof****er. Also you can add magnesium sulphate (epson
salts) which will increase just the GH.

For my planted tank a aim for a KH of about 5dH and a GH of about 6dH. the
calcium carbonate i add takes both GH and KH to 5dH and the magnesium
sulphate i add then takes GH to 6dH. With CO2 injection at about 25ppm it
gives me an pH of about 6.8

Be careful when adding anything which changes your KH as it will change
your
pH as well. Add it slowly.

"linda mar" wrote in message
...
Is there a way to increase KH without increasing pH? or do they always go
hand-in-hand?

I have soft water (tap seems to vary between GH/KH=2 and GH/KH=3), but
they
add something in the water to make the pH very high (fresh out of tap is
close to 8.0). so when I do water change, it keeps my tank quite alkaline
(somewhere in the 7.5 region). I would like to increase KH one or two
degrees, but really do not want the water to be more alkaline than it
already is.

linda

Many water systems add some sort of hydroxide (alkaline) to reduce
corrosion. Mine adds sodium hydroxide. The tap is 8.9+ but drops rapidly
once out of the tap. Aging the water generally will help.

As for adjusting kH without affecting pH, the answer is no. Up the kH the
pH goes up, unless you add CO2 to balance the pH. You can also use an
acid buffer to drop the pH while raising the kH.

Out of curiosity, does your pH tend to drop consistently between water
changes? In my Pre-CO2 tanks the kH and pH would slowly drift down over
time, actually it still does.

Bob

Is there a way to increase KH without increasing pH?

Add calcium carbonate, and inject CO2. :-)

I have soft water (tap seems to vary between GH/KH=2 and GH/KH=3), but they
add something in the water to make the pH very high (fresh out of tap is
close to 8.0).

Is that the real pH, though? Often, the pH out of the tap is not the real pH
of the water. The water may have extra CO2 in it, or be CO2-depleted. You
should leave it in a bucket overnight, then measure the pH. Or aerate a cup of
water for 20 minutes, then measure the pH. That will give you the real pH of
the your water.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Many water systems add some sort of hydroxide (alkaline) to reduce
corrosion. Mine adds sodium hydroxide. The tap is 8.9+ but drops rapidly
once out of the tap. Aging the water generally will help.

yeah. straight out it is like 8.2.. after two days aging, it's like 7.8...

As for adjusting kH without affecting pH, the answer is no. Up the kH the
pH goes up, unless you add CO2 to balance the pH. You can also use an
acid buffer to drop the pH while raising the kH.

so.. add kH increase chemical, and also put in pH down or something?

does this mean people stop CO2 during the night? wouldn't it
over-compensate by producing too much CO2? I guess one way to fix this is
get a peumatically actuated air intake valve that is timed so that when the
lights go off, it will turn on venturi in the tank, to bubble out CO2?

sigh. I guess I have too much plant for my tank and water condition, I
guess :-(

Out of curiosity, does your pH tend to drop consistently between water
changes? In my Pre-CO2 tanks the kH and pH would slowly drift down over
time, actually it still does.

well, this is a hard question to answer... mainly because my tank seems to
experience quite a bit of pH fluctuation over the course of the day.

1. when the tank was much newer (yes.. my tank is about 4-5mo, so..it's
still pretty new), the pH seemed to stay pretty stable around 7.6-7.8. very
alkaline, and the water was more yellow due to all the tannin leeched by the
bogwood. also the water was always slightly cloudy (this was true even
without the plants). stale water out of the tap is about 7.8, so I guess
this made sense.

2. now the pH drifts between 7.0 and 7.5 (7.5 at night, 7.0 in the morning)
probably due to plants eating up CO2. water is almost clear (no yellow),
and very very little haze.. (you can only see the haze at night with no
ambient light).

3. ever since I noticed this inter-day pH drift/cycle, I have not seen my
water go above 7.6... yet... and I just did a 50% water change.. and within
two days, it's back to 7.0-7.5 daily pH drift... (yes.. poor fish)..

I don't use any activated carbon, so I guess the tannin was just
water-changed-out over time... my water change is on the order of once in
1.5 weeks, about 25% (NetMax warned me that since the tap pH is high, and
KH/GH is low, if I lapse on my water change the pH differential may become
so large it may be bad for fish.. not to mention potential pH crash due to
limited buffering capability). at any rate, right before my 50% water
change, the water pH cycle was 7.0-7.4 or so.. now it's like 7.0-7.5.. so I
guess you can say it is slightly higher.. but not noticably higher for the
amount of water that got changed out. (value between 7.2 and 7.6 is like a
guessing game anyway)

the overall drop in the pH may be because I've started to add some plant
nutrients (Flourish, flourish excel, flourish iron. my swords started to
look downright pale, and new anubias leaf was almost white! now its all
nice and green..)... so it's possible the plants are all of a sudden doing
so well that it's depeleting CO2 to quickly compensate the pH differential..
or whatever.. (I'm brainstorming here).

linda

"linda mar" wrote in message
...


As for adjusting kH without affecting pH, the answer is no. Up the kH
the
pH goes up, unless you add CO2 to balance the pH. You can also use an
acid buffer to drop the pH while raising the kH.

so.. add kH increase chemical, and also put in pH down or something?

Yes

does this mean people stop CO2 during the night? wouldn't it
over-compensate by producing too much CO2? I guess one way to fix this is
get a peumatically actuated air intake valve that is timed so that when
the
lights go off, it will turn on venturi in the tank, to bubble out CO2?

No, most people let it run all the time. The pH shift at night is less than
the pH shift that would occur if you shut off the CO2. You can set up
controlers with pressurized CO2 that maintain a set level of CO2.

sigh. I guess I have too much plant for my tank and water condition, I
guess :-(

If your fish have room to swim, how can you have too many plants?

Out of curiosity, does your pH tend to drop consistently between water
changes? In my Pre-CO2 tanks the kH and pH would slowly drift down
over
time, actually it still does.

Yes the kH and pH drift slowly downward. I add small amounts of baking soda
to maintain the kH and pH stable.

SNIP
I don't use any activated carbon, so I guess the tannin was just
water-changed-out over time... my water change is on the order of once in
1.5 weeks, about 25% (NetMax warned me that since the tap pH is high, and
KH/GH is low, if I lapse on my water change the pH differential may become
so large it may be bad for fish.. not to mention potential pH crash due to
limited buffering capability). at any rate, right before my 50% water
change, the water pH cycle was 7.0-7.4 or so.. now it's like 7.0-7.5.. so
I
guess you can say it is slightly higher.. but not noticably higher for the
amount of water that got changed out. (value between 7.2 and 7.6 is like a
guessing game anyway)

the overall drop in the pH may be because I've started to add some plant
nutrients (Flourish, flourish excel, flourish iron. my swords started to
look downright pale, and new anubias leaf was almost white! now its all
nice and green..)... so it's possible the plants are all of a sudden doing
so well that it's depeleting CO2 to quickly compensate the pH
differential..
or whatever.. (I'm brainstorming here).

linda

My reader dumps everything after 5 days and I can't recall what your CO2
levels were. Mine run between 15 and 25 PPM depending on the DIY CO@
bottles. My needle valve on the 55 gallon keep plugging so I run it wide
open. I need to add a liquid dropout in front of the needle valve. I never
remember to check the pH before I turn on the lights so I don't know what
the fluctuation is. All I know if that I've beaten the green water and
cloudy water problems by adding nutrients..and upping the nitrate level.

My reader dumps everything after 5 days and I can't recall what your CO2
levels were. Mine run between 15 and 25 PPM depending on the DIY CO@
bottles. My needle valve on the 55 gallon keep plugging so I run it wide
open. I need to add a liquid dropout in front of the needle valve. I
never
remember to check the pH before I turn on the lights so I don't know what
the fluctuation is. All I know if that I've beaten the green water and
cloudy water problems by adding nutrients..and upping the nitrate level.

I don't have the means to read CO2 yet.. I was contemplating doing DIY
thing until I lost all 4 otos in a span of 2 days and went into "coronor's
investigation" mode.. (and was told by one LFS that they are quite sensitive
to pH changes.. and this is what is prompting all my interest)

assuming nothing else is wrong with the tank other than the pH drifts (I
have few bloated danios that I'm not sure what to make of them), I intend to
start adding nitrates since the tank reads zero... my fish aren't polluting
the tank fast enough for the plants! (what a concept)

i haven't gotten green water, but I do have haze.. seems to come and go
depending on how much sunlight it gets during the sunset hours.. (like, if I
forget to close the drapes etc., then the water seems more hazy).

I guess I'll try some experiment (adding baking soda, and also ph down to
see how they correlate to pH change..) before I start dumping stuff into the
main tank! but seems like upping the KH and stabilizing pH a bit might be
desirable for the fish.. then i'll tend to the plants :-)

linda

Mid posted
"linda mar" wrote in message
...

SNIP

I don't have the means to read CO2 yet.. I was contemplating doing DIY
thing until I lost all 4 otos in a span of 2 days and went into "coronor's
investigation" mode.. (and was told by one LFS that they are quite
sensitive
to pH changes.. and this is what is prompting all my interest)

Sure you do, assuming you've not used phosphate buffers. In the normal tank
which is bicarbonate buffered the relationship between pH, CO2 and kH is a
direct one. add CO2, pH will drop. add bicarbonate pH will rise. See
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm Just measure the pH
and kH and plug the number in. Or get out the slide rule and use the
included formula. I've got the page in my favorites for use when I want to
check CO2 levels.

assuming nothing else is wrong with the tank other than the pH drifts (I
have few bloated danios that I'm not sure what to make of them), I intend
to
start adding nitrates since the tank reads zero... my fish aren't
polluting
the tank fast enough for the plants! (what a concept)

I have to add nitrates to a 29 gallon platy tank that has about double the
inch/gallon fish load. But then the tank is overgrown with cabomba,
elodea/egeria and java moss. Ofcourse I trim about 6" a week, wonder what
I'd have to do if I had more than 20 watts of light. I tossed a half a
bucket of cabomba out from my 55 today, it is a super low light tank.

i haven't gotten green water, but I do have haze.. seems to come and go
depending on how much sunlight it gets during the sunset hours.. (like, if
I
forget to close the drapes etc., then the water seems more hazy).

I guess I'll try some experiment (adding baking soda, and also ph down to
see how they correlate to pH change..) before I start dumping stuff into
the
main tank! but seems like upping the KH and stabilizing pH a bit might be
desirable for the fish.. then i'll tend to the plants :-)

linda

Be careful that you don't use phosphate based buffers. I think pH down is
just acid, probably sulfuric. baking soda will give you a pretty quick rise
in pH.

Bob

Hi Bob,

don't know if you'll read this (old thread), but I've started increasing the
KH.. hope to get it up to at least 3 or may be 4... and then use pH down to
regulate the pH a bit (CO2 is in the future for more semi-permanent
solution.. but I just have to get over the activation energy to deal with
the yeast mess :-P

yeah. i know about the phosphate-based pH adjusters. will avoid it... (got
a small bottle of pH down. if that works eventually, I'll buy a bigger
bottle...)

Wasn't sure if pH Stable was baking soda or some other carbonate source, but
thought I'd pay extra just to see... so far, added 1.5tsp of the darn thing
in my 37G and the kH has not budged!!! (stuck between 1 and 2). I guess the
difference is when I put 1 drop, the color is darker than it was before.. so
it's easier to see the color change (before I had to look from the top of
the tube to discern color change). I guess KH is going up.. but SLOOOWLY
and I must have started out really low. pH did seem to creep up a bit, but
still within the normal fluctuation level.. I'm letting it settle 24hrs
before I add more pH Stable or change pH...

and no. the test kit does work. I checked.. if I add a speckle of the
stuff directly into the test tube, the color changes instantly.. so.. I
guess the tank is super-deficient of carbonates.

I'm trying to think of a definitive way to discern whether Kent's pH stable
is sodium bicarbonate or not... I guess I can check the ultimate pH of the
solution and compare.. (baking soda is about 8.2 or something, i think..)
that may be the easiest thing to check... sorry.. I'm just thinking out
loud. (if so, what a waste of money.. oh well)..

linda

"Robert Flory" wrote in message
gy.com...
Mid posted
"linda mar" wrote in message
...

SNIP

I don't have the means to read CO2 yet.. I was contemplating doing DIY
thing until I lost all 4 otos in a span of 2 days and went into
"coronor's
investigation" mode.. (and was told by one LFS that they are quite
sensitive
to pH changes.. and this is what is prompting all my interest)

Sure you do, assuming you've not used phosphate buffers. In the normal
tank
which is bicarbonate buffered the relationship between pH, CO2 and kH is a
direct one. add CO2, pH will drop. add bicarbonate pH will rise. See
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm Just measure the
pH
and kH and plug the number in. Or get out the slide rule and use the
included formula. I've got the page in my favorites for use when I want
to
check CO2 levels.

assuming nothing else is wrong with the tank other than the pH drifts (I
have few bloated danios that I'm not sure what to make of them), I
intend
to
start adding nitrates since the tank reads zero... my fish aren't
polluting
the tank fast enough for the plants! (what a concept)

I have to add nitrates to a 29 gallon platy tank that has about double the
inch/gallon fish load. But then the tank is overgrown with cabomba,
elodea/egeria and java moss. Ofcourse I trim about 6" a week, wonder what
I'd have to do if I had more than 20 watts of light. I tossed a half a
bucket of cabomba out from my 55 today, it is a super low light tank.

i haven't gotten green water, but I do have haze.. seems to come and go
depending on how much sunlight it gets during the sunset hours.. (like,
if
I
forget to close the drapes etc., then the water seems more hazy).

I guess I'll try some experiment (adding baking soda, and also ph down
to
see how they correlate to pH change..) before I start dumping stuff into
the
main tank! but seems like upping the KH and stabilizing pH a bit might
be
desirable for the fish.. then i'll tend to the plants :-)

linda

Be careful that you don't use phosphate based buffers. I think pH down is
just acid, probably sulfuric. baking soda will give you a pretty quick
rise
in pH.

Bob

Increasing the kH is simple to do with baking soda. Use 1/4 teaspoon per 50
gal a day untill the result is found.

decreasing pH with a phosphate buffer or weak acid is NOT appropriate with
planted tanks. The correct way to buffer the solution is using a pH
controller to pH 6.8 with a pressurized canister. This can be expensive
initially (250 usd ) but is maintainance free. I messed with yeast and sugar
initially but got varied results.

Weak acids will drive the alkalinity out of solution as co2, and buffer will
grow an interesting mess.



"linda mar" wrote in message
...
Hi Bob,

don't know if you'll read this (old thread), but I've started increasing
the
KH.. hope to get it up to at least 3 or may be 4... and then use pH down
to
regulate the pH a bit (CO2 is in the future for more semi-permanent
solution.. but I just have to get over the activation energy to deal with
the yeast mess :-P

yeah. i know about the phosphate-based pH adjusters. will avoid it...
(got
a small bottle of pH down. if that works eventually, I'll buy a bigger
bottle...)

Wasn't sure if pH Stable was baking soda or some other carbonate source,
but
thought I'd pay extra just to see... so far, added 1.5tsp of the darn
thing
in my 37G and the kH has not budged!!! (stuck between 1 and 2). I guess
the
difference is when I put 1 drop, the color is darker than it was before..
so
it's easier to see the color change (before I had to look from the top of
the tube to discern color change). I guess KH is going up.. but SLOOOWLY
and I must have started out really low. pH did seem to creep up a bit,
but
still within the normal fluctuation level.. I'm letting it settle 24hrs
before I add more pH Stable or change pH...

and no. the test kit does work. I checked.. if I add a speckle of the
stuff directly into the test tube, the color changes instantly.. so.. I
guess the tank is super-deficient of carbonates.

I'm trying to think of a definitive way to discern whether Kent's pH
stable
is sodium bicarbonate or not... I guess I can check the ultimate pH of the
solution and compare.. (baking soda is about 8.2 or something, i think..)
that may be the easiest thing to check... sorry.. I'm just thinking out
loud. (if so, what a waste of money.. oh well)..

linda

"Robert Flory" wrote in message
gy.com...
Mid posted
"linda mar" wrote in message
...

SNIP

I don't have the means to read CO2 yet.. I was contemplating doing
DIY
thing until I lost all 4 otos in a span of 2 days and went into
"coronor's
investigation" mode.. (and was told by one LFS that they are quite
sensitive
to pH changes.. and this is what is prompting all my interest)

Sure you do, assuming you've not used phosphate buffers. In the normal
tank
which is bicarbonate buffered the relationship between pH, CO2 and kH is
a
direct one. add CO2, pH will drop. add bicarbonate pH will rise. See
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm Just measure the
pH
and kH and plug the number in. Or get out the slide rule and use the
included formula. I've got the page in my favorites for use when I want
to
check CO2 levels.

assuming nothing else is wrong with the tank other than the pH drifts
(I
have few bloated danios that I'm not sure what to make of them), I
intend
to
start adding nitrates since the tank reads zero... my fish aren't
polluting
the tank fast enough for the plants! (what a concept)

I have to add nitrates to a 29 gallon platy tank that has about double
the
inch/gallon fish load. But then the tank is overgrown with cabomba,
elodea/egeria and java moss. Ofcourse I trim about 6" a week, wonder
what
I'd have to do if I had more than 20 watts of light. I tossed a half a
bucket of cabomba out from my 55 today, it is a super low light tank.

i haven't gotten green water, but I do have haze.. seems to come and
go
depending on how much sunlight it gets during the sunset hours..
(like,
if
I
forget to close the drapes etc., then the water seems more hazy).

I guess I'll try some experiment (adding baking soda, and also ph down
to
see how they correlate to pH change..) before I start dumping stuff
into
the
main tank! but seems like upping the KH and stabilizing pH a bit
might
be
desirable for the fish.. then i'll tend to the plants :-)

linda

Be careful that you don't use phosphate based buffers. I think pH down
is
just acid, probably sulfuric. baking soda will give you a pretty quick
rise
in pH.

Bob