Exactly! That's why I said everyone's experience is different. I'm sure
somewhere out there someone bred neons in water even harder than 375ppm
softened and acidified by peat. I didn't soften the water or lower it's PH

No. The calcium blocks the sperm receptor sites and the egg
cannot be fertilized in hard water. This is why for years and
years neons were considered difficult if not impossible to
breed until this was figured out. The McInnery book has the best
treatise on this.

I've kept neons and cardinals for years in hard water.

Lots of poeple have.

The thing about acid water is it keeps to a certain extent,
bacteria at bay. I always suspect clenliness, not pH or
hardness when people have trouble with blackwater fish.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Hi..

I've kept neons and cardinals for years in hard water.
Lots of people have.

Are "cardinals" == Tanichthys albonubes..?

They are still hard water fish(es).

The thing about acid water is it keeps to a certain
extent, bacteria at bay. I always suspect clenliness, not
pH or hardness when people have trouble with blackwater
fish.

Soft blackwater is clean because bacteria do not prefer such
conditions. And this is why soft and clean water is ideal
for several soft water species..
--
cu
Marco

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Exactly! That's why I said everyone's experience is different. I'm sure
somewhere out there someone bred neons in water even harder than 375ppm
softened and acidified by peat. I didn't soften the water or lower it's
PH

No. The calcium blocks the sperm receptor sites and the egg
cannot be fertilized in hard water. This is why for years and
years neons were considered difficult if not impossible to
breed until this was figured out. The McInnery book has the best
treatise on this.

I've kept neons and cardinals for years in hard water.

Lots of poeple have.

The thing about acid water is it keeps to a certain extent,
bacteria at bay. I always suspect clenliness, not pH or
hardness when people have trouble with blackwater fish.
========================================
These terta deaths may well have something to do with bacteria, and the
bacteria these blackwater fish can and can't tolerate. But there is no way
to control which bacteria are growing in our tanks. All we can do is keep
the gravel and filters as clean (unclogged) as possible. I would assume an
alkaline hard water tank would indeed have different bacteria than a
blackwater tank. That makes perfect sense. Perhaps some blackwater fish
adapt to this bacteria, and some don't. There may be other unknown reasons
as well that some adapt and others don't.
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

In article ,
Marco Schwarz wrote:
Hi..

I've kept neons and cardinals for years in hard water.
Lots of people have.

Are "cardinals" == Tanichthys albonubes..?

No. In north america "neon" means Hypessobrycon innesi and
Cardinal refers to Paracheirodon axelrodi.

T. albonubes is called "White cloud mountain minnow" or
just "white cloud" here.

They are still hard water fish(es).

The thing about acid water is it keeps to a certain
extent, bacteria at bay. I always suspect clenliness, not
pH or hardness when people have trouble with blackwater
fish.

Soft blackwater is clean because bacteria do not prefer such
conditions. And this is why soft and clean water is ideal
for several soft water species..

Depends on the bacteria. Scheel reported in _ROTOW_ that
Mycobacteria does not do at all well in hard water but he suffered
great losses from this pathogen when he kept wild caught fishes frim
soft water in soft water tanks. What he would do was always keep
them in hard water then only breed them in soft water.

He also found that in hard water the gonads would not develop
but found that peat extract (or any source of gonaditropine,
and you may not want to ask) would cause the sex organs to mature;
into soft water, breed, then quick back to hard water.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Its not nice to argue with Caol Gulley. Yu are not going to convince
that btch that what your saying is correct and what she saiys is just
her opinion. She probably wrote those books for those guys. I know she
wsa an understudy of Dr.Innez and a partner to "Dr. Solo"

On Fri, 16 Jun 2006 20:14:29 +0000 (UTC),
(Richard Sexton) wrote:

Exactly! That's why I said everyone's experience is different. I'm sure
somewhere out there someone bred neons in water even harder than 375ppm
softened and acidified by peat. I didn't soften the water or lower it's PH

No. The calcium blocks the sperm receptor sites and the egg
cannot be fertilized in hard water. This is why for years and
years neons were considered difficult if not impossible to
breed until this was figured out. The McInnery book has the best
treatise on this.

I've kept neons and cardinals for years in hard water.

Lots of poeple have.

The thing about acid water is it keeps to a certain extent,
bacteria at bay. I always suspect clenliness, not pH or
hardness when people have trouble with blackwater fish.


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Hi..

No. In north america "neon" means Hypessobrycon innesi and
Cardinal refers to Paracheirodon axelrodi.

Thanks, should have asked Google in advance..

"White cloud mountain minnow" or just "white cloud" here.

This is exactely where they come from or what "albonubes"
means..

Depends on the bacteria. Scheel reported in _ROTOW_ that
Mycobacteria does not do at all well in hard water but he
suffered great losses from this pathogen when he kept wild
caught fishes frim soft water in soft water tanks.

Well, only a minority of wild caught fishes will reach us
fish keepers and these fishes are often apathetic and ill.
Means their immune system is weak, too..

Some fish species are used to change from softer to harder
water and back. Others seem to spend their complete
life in soft or soft _and_ acid water..

The softer the water the more energy do fishes need to
transport diffusing water back to outside. This is a
kidneys job and the kidneys are always in danger to loose
important ions. And the management of the ion pumps that
hold these ions back consume a lot of energy..

And this is why weak and apathetic soft water wild caught
fishes often aren't able to manage both: to fight the
pathogens back and to keep their ion pumps effectively
running..

But after their recovery they can return to soft water, step
by step adapted over a timeframe of 3-4 weeks..

BTW: We are used to keep soft water fishes in soft water and
they feel well. Initiated by soft water their kidneys are
steadily "rinsed" and in this way and in the long term they
aren't in danger to get a renal insufficiency..

What he
would do was always keep them in hard water then only
breed them in soft water.

Hmm.., see above-mentioned..

He also found that in hard water the gonads would not
develop but found that peat extract (or any source of
gonaditropine, and you may not want to ask) would cause
the sex organs to mature; into soft water, breed, then
quick back to hard water..

--
cu
Marco

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Marco Schwarz" wrote in message
...
\
The softer the water the more energy do fishes need to
transport diffusing water back to outside. This is a
kidneys job and the kidneys are always in danger to loose
important ions. And the management of the ion pumps that
hold these ions back consume a lot of energy..

Which I believe is involved (electrolytes) in these soft water, low PH water
fish being unable to thrive in very hard alkaline water. Bacteria may also
play a part but I believe it's more of an electrolyte problem.

BTW: We are used to keep soft water fishes in soft water and
they feel well. Initiated by soft water their kidneys are
steadily "rinsed" and in this way and in the long term they
aren't in danger to get a renal insufficiency..

Which may be what killed the small tetras I tried to keep here in TN.
Rather than try and keep fish that don't thrive in my water I will stick
with those that do. :-)
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Ah go **** yourself Carol no one here or anywhere else gives a flying
**** abuyt you and your tetras or any thing else you ramble on about.
Your assinine ramblings and socks are the reason these groups are like
they are, so don;t go laying the blame on others for yur own ****ups
and one sided ways in your perverted world that only hinges on what
is best for you and youo alone. Someone really needs to knock you in
the ****ing head and tell god you died. I doubt anyone would even
miss you.

Opinon is the whole thing and carols do not count.

On Sat, 17 Jun 2006 16:34:33 -0500, "Koi-Lo" ¤?¤@ö½.Õ..Õ¢ wrote:

*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Marco Schwarz" wrote in message
...
\
The softer the water the more energy do fishes need to
transport diffusing water back to outside. This is a
kidneys job and the kidneys are always in danger to loose
important ions. And the management of the ion pumps that
hold these ions back consume a lot of energy..

Which I believe is involved (electrolytes) in these soft water, low PH water
fish being unable to thrive in very hard alkaline water. Bacteria may also
play a part but I believe it's more of an electrolyte problem.

BTW: We are used to keep soft water fishes in soft water and
they feel well. Initiated by soft water their kidneys are
steadily "rinsed" and in this way and in the long term they
aren't in danger to get a renal insufficiency..

Which may be what killed the small tetras I tried to keep here in TN.
Rather than try and keep fish that don't thrive in my water I will stick
with those that do. :-)


--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Well, only a minority of wild caught fishes will reach us
fish keepers and these fishes are often apathetic and ill.
Means their immune system is weak, too..

We do ok here. I see a lot fewe losses in stores these days. Maybe
they're finally getting the hang of it or maybe they die before
making it to shops I don't know.

Some fish species are used to change from softer to harder
water and back. Others seem to spend their complete
life in soft or soft _and_ acid water..

Well, little odd killifihs from gabon spend their lives
i npeay soft acid pools and do fine in LA tapwater whihc is
17Dh or something liek that. Similarly so other exotic and
tochy rainwater killies. I don't uy at all there exists a
sof****er fich than cannot live in hard water. The opposite
may well be true though.

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Hi..

We do ok here. I see a lot fewe losses in stores these
days. Maybe they're finally getting the hang of it or
maybe they die before making it to shops I don't know.

Think positive.. ;-)

Well, little odd killifihs from gabon spend their lives
i npeay soft acid pools and do fine in LA tapwater whihc
is 17Dh or something liek that.

An annual species..? Does it have a common name..?

Similarly so other exotic
and tochy rainwater killies. I don't uy at all there
exists a sof****er fich than cannot live in hard water.
The opposite may well be true though.

Of course they will survive in harder water and might feel
well for a while - for a while..!
--
cu
Marco

In article ,
Marco Schwarz wrote:
Hi..

We do ok here. I see a lot fewe losses in stores these
days. Maybe they're finally getting the hang of it or
maybe they die before making it to shops I don't know.

Think positive.. ;-)

Well, little odd killifihs from gabon spend their lives
i npeay soft acid pools and do fine in LA tapwater whihc
is 17Dh or something liek that.

An annual species..? Does it have a common name..?

The entire genus Ahyosemion. And every other genus of killi.
I'm not aware of any that can not be kept in hard water (albeit
they MUST breed in soft water). There are hardwater killies
(pupfish ans such) that will definitly die in too soft of
water.

Similarly so other exotic
and tochy rainwater killies. I don't uy at all there
exists a sof****er fich than cannot live in hard water.
The opposite may well be true though.

Of course they will survive in harder water and might feel
well for a while - for a while..!

Long while buddy! Years and years. Tetras, barbs, dwarf cichlids,
angels, tetras, they all do fine long term in hard water IME.

Just one data point.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Hi..

The entire genus Ahyosemion. And every other genus of
killi. I'm not aware of any that can not be kept in hard
water (albeit they MUST breed in soft water). There are
hardwater killies (pupfish ans such) that will definitly
die in too soft of water.

It wasn't my purpose to declare each killi to be a soft
water fish.

Long while buddy! Years and years. Tetras, barbs, dwarf
cichlids, angels, tetras, they all do fine long term in
hard water IME.

More or less *long* buddy!

--
cu
Marco, coming from a different fish keeping tradition..