*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Not everyone knows what you're talking about.

True.

And not everyone can afford a large number of tests kits.

Tom is saying you don't need test kits. He's right about that.

So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
minimum of supplements.

They're not "supplements" they're "food".
=========================
Supplementary "food" then. But without test kits there is no way to know if
these "foods" are balanced or not, no way to know if there's too much P for
the N available etc.
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

Hi..

Yup. But as Tom says, this just cures the sympton not the
cause.

Well.., cyanobacteria are of course a hot discussed topic in
our native newsgroups and forums, too. But our biologists
say there is no integral whole understanding of cause and
effect relating to cyanobacteria - and how to avoid them.

And this is why I told the OP some well known and easy to
manage practical methods..

Think positive: this is Tom's ultimate chance to explain his
understanding of cause and effect relating to cyanobacteria
here in rafp..!

--
cu
Marco

It's not fair to have people believe of they add these supplements they
*WILL* work regardless of gallonage, filters, lighting or fish load. That
is unless there's a money-back guarantee, which there isn't.


They will work. You're doing *something* wrong. Get over it.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:
And yet I continued on using the supplements since I already had them -
bought and paid for. Did you think I threw then away? I'm still using
them. The old plants are doing fine as they always have. Most of the new
ones are dead and gone. Some black sooty and black hairy algae remains.

Try removing it.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

In article ,
Marco Schwarz wrote:
Hi..

Yup. But as Tom says, this just cures the sympton not the
cause.

Well.., cyanobacteria are of course a hot discussed topic in
our native newsgroups and forums, too. But our biologists
say there is no integral whole understanding of cause and
effect relating to cyanobacteria - and how to avoid them.

And this is why I told the OP some well known and easy to
manage practical methods..

Think positive: this is Tom's ultimate chance to explain his
understanding of cause and effect relating to cyanobacteria
here in rafp..!

It's in the APD archives. Many many times.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:
Supplementary "food" then. But without test kits there is no way to know if
these "foods" are balanced or not, no way to know if there's too much P for
the N available etc.

Somebody hasn't been paying attention.

Try google for "estimative index".

Or http://aquaria.net/articles/plants/barr-dose/

--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

Koi-Lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
them to grow well, not too low= algae, not too high= dead fish from
very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)
====================
Not everyone knows what you're talking about. Not being a chemist, I have
no idea what the above are. And not everyone can afford a large number of
tests kits. So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
minimum of supplements.
--
KL

Hi,
You know what baking soda is? Sodium bicarbonate.
If stump remover(KNO3) works better for you, that's simple enough.

I'm not suggsting you buy a test kit, I never once did.
Actually quite the opposite, but if you want to verify vai a test kit,
you may, but then you also need to make some standard solutions of
known amounts of NO3 to make sure the test kit is not in error. Many
folks have made that mistake and still do.

NO3= nitrAte

There are many acronyms that chemist, hobbyists, feeble minded people
like myself use. LFS is a common one few outside our hobby might
know........
Any chem formula is easy to search to see what it might be.

You do have google search right here on the page after all
Still, it sounds all Greek if you are not a little familar with it.
You see the fertilizer bags for your lawn etc, they have 3 numbers,
NPK, % of the these same fertilizers, Nitrogen(N), Phosphorus(P), and
Potassium(K).

Now Farmer Bigweed is no chemist either..............but he knows that
adding his fertilizer 3x a week on his rice keeps the algae back and
the rice growing well.
He's a little worried that his crops might get burned from all this
fertilizer and potential for build up.

So he drains the field once a week and then adds the fertilizer right
back to prevent any residual build up.

The main difference between us and Farmer Bigweed is that we use only
dose NO3, not NH4 (Ammonium, you know the stuff that kills fish real
well even if there's a little).

Otherwise, it's the same............

Farmer Bigweed needs no test kits because he knows how much water
volume is in his fields, and he knows how much kilograms of fertilizer
he needs to add to get a good level of NO3.

So if he changes say 50% of the water in the rice field, he will never
build uop more than 2x the maxmimum amount dosed for that week.

You can easily estimate tha ppms using a dosing caluculator on
line(there are many, see Chuck Gadd's dosing calculator).

I know adding 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 will add 10-11ppm of NO3 to an 20
gal tank for each dose.

So if I dose 3x a week: 30ppm total.

If I assume that the plants will not take up any and do weekly 50%
water changes, the max build up possible is 60ppm NO3.

This is a simple mathmatical equation referred to as an infinite series
of dilutions.

Now if the plants do take up nutrients, say 20ppm a week, then the
range will be about 25-40ppm all week.

So what about if the plants grow real fast?
The max uptake for NO3 is about 4 ppm per day in packed tank with no
fish and very high light and high CO2 etc.

4x 7 = 28ppm.

So dosing 30ppm for a higher light tank will never run out of
NO3............and thus no tank with less light will also run out of
nutrients either.

The water changes prevent build ups. You can change less or more %%% if
you so chose, more will lead to great accuracy and less build up.
Less will lead to lesser accuracy and more potential build up.

A little math and chem is needed for the hobby to deal with some things
like BBA or BGA if they reoccur, but it's better than suffering also
for years...............

But how much do you really need before you can deal with things on a
practical level?
Do you need all those test kits like Beelezabubba from the University
claims to add ferts to rice to get rid of your algae issue in the rice
field?

No........some simple dosing methods/routines are all that's needed,
they are generally more accurate than the test kits anyway.

I did not nor do most folks in this hobby decide to keep tanks in order
to test water, water testing is not my "hobby".
I like plants, so I add ferts for them to grow well/the best and watch
their responses.

EI is a simjple method, about as simple and cheap as you are going to
get, folks get weird when the first try to wonder about the "why", the
how is very easy..........

Give me a tank volume and light, whether you use CO2 or not, and I can
prescribe a very simple, cheap way to dose it and target these levels.

You can read more about EI and there's even an "EI light" version
around on the web etc

http://www.barrreport.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Regards,
Tom Barr

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
It's not fair to have people believe of they add these supplements they
*WILL* work regardless of gallonage, filters, lighting or fish load. That
is unless there's a money-back guarantee, which there isn't.


They will work. You're doing *something* wrong. Get over it.
===========================
When people failed to get-rich-quick with the pyramid scheme they were told
the same thing - the blame was put on them. ;-)

There was nothing else I could do but add the recommended amounts of these
products to the tanks. I guess they have the wrong amounts on the
containers. People should know that before purchasing these products.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:
And yet I continued on using the supplements since I already had them -
bought and paid for. Did you think I threw then away? I'm still using
them. The old plants are doing fine as they always have. Most of the new
ones are dead and gone. Some black sooty and black hairy algae remains.

Try removing it.
========================
I already did that weeks ago. New algae takes it's place on the leaf edges.
There isn't as much but it certainly isn't gone nor has it turned white.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:
Supplementary "food" then. But without test kits there is no way to know
if
these "foods" are balanced or not, no way to know if there's too much P
for
the N available etc.

Somebody hasn't been paying attention.

Try google for "estimative index".

Or http://aquaria.net/articles/plants/barr-dose/
=====================================
OK, so you buy the chemicals and "estimate." That can work I suppose. I
bought the Seachem products. I followed the amounts on the containers of
Excel, Iron and trace elements. The new plants still slowly faded
away......
--
KL....
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on
the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

wrote in message
ups.com...

Koi-Lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
them to grow well, not too low= algae, not too high= dead fish from
very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)
====================
Not everyone knows what you're talking about. Not being a chemist, I
have
no idea what the above are. And not everyone can afford a large number
of
tests kits. So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
minimum of supplements.
--
KL
======================
Hi,
You know what baking soda is? Sodium bicarbonate.
If stump remover(KNO3) works better for you, that's simple enough.

I'm not suggsting you buy a test kit, I never once did.
Actually quite the opposite, but if you want to verify vai a test kit,
you may, but then you also need to make some standard solutions of
known amounts of NO3 to make sure the test kit is not in error. Many
folks have made that mistake and still do.

NO3= nitrAte

There are many acronyms that chemist, hobbyists, feeble minded people
like myself use. LFS is a common one few outside our hobby might
know........
Any chem formula is easy to search to see what it might be.

You do have google search right here on the page after all
Still, it sounds all Greek if you are not a little familar with it.
You see the fertilizer bags for your lawn etc, they have 3 numbers,
NPK, % of the these same fertilizers, Nitrogen(N), Phosphorus(P), and
Potassium(K).

Yes. Those are the ones I'm familiar with - along with the micronutrients
mentioned on the containers of regular houseplant fertilizers.

Now Farmer Bigweed is no chemist either..............but he knows that
adding his fertilizer 3x a week on his rice keeps the algae back and
the rice growing well.
He's a little worried that his crops might get burned from all this
fertilizer and potential for build up.

So he drains the field once a week and then adds the fertilizer right
back to prevent any residual build up.

I see.

The main difference between us and Farmer Bigweed is that we use only
dose NO3, not NH4 (Ammonium, you know the stuff that kills fish real
well even if there's a little).

I know the stuff.

Otherwise, it's the same............
Farmer Bigweed needs no test kits because he knows how much water
volume is in his fields, and he knows how much kilograms of fertilizer
he needs to add to get a good level of NO3.

So if he changes say 50% of the water in the rice field, he will never
build uop more than 2x the maxmimum amount dosed for that week.

You can easily estimate tha ppms using a dosing caluculator on
line(there are many, see Chuck Gadd's dosing calculator).

I know adding 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 will add 10-11ppm of NO3 to an 20
gal tank for each dose.

So if I dose 3x a week: 30ppm total.

If I assume that the plants will not take up any and do weekly 50%
water changes, the max build up possible is 60ppm NO3.

This is a simple mathmatical equation referred to as an infinite series
of dilutions.

4x 7 = 28ppm.

Brevity snip!

Give me a tank volume and light, whether you use CO2 or not, and I can
prescribe a very simple, cheap way to dose it and target these levels.

OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of
shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available
in my area.

You can read more about EI and there's even an "EI light" version
around on the web etc

http://www.barrreport.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4

Thanks... I'll check this out. :-)
--
KL.......
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*

yea yea yea, potassium nitrate is available all over the place
dumbass...they just see a kook like you and deny selling you
any....ya duymbass

On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:06:43 -0500, "Koi-Lo" ¤?¤@ö½.Õ..Õ¢ wrote:
nothing of worth as usual.


wrote in message
oups.com...

Koi-Lo wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

You need to provide a nice range of nutrients for plants in order for
them to grow well, not too low= algae, not too high= dead fish from
very high NO3(100ppm or more using KNO3)
====================
Not everyone knows what you're talking about. Not being a chemist, I
have
no idea what the above are. And not everyone can afford a large number
of
tests kits. So we tend to stick to the plants that thrive for us with a
minimum of supplements.
--
KL
======================
Hi,
You know what baking soda is? Sodium bicarbonate.
If stump remover(KNO3) works better for you, that's simple enough.

I'm not suggsting you buy a test kit, I never once did.
Actually quite the opposite, but if you want to verify vai a test kit,
you may, but then you also need to make some standard solutions of
known amounts of NO3 to make sure the test kit is not in error. Many
folks have made that mistake and still do.

NO3= nitrAte

There are many acronyms that chemist, hobbyists, feeble minded people
like myself use. LFS is a common one few outside our hobby might
know........
Any chem formula is easy to search to see what it might be.

You do have google search right here on the page after all
Still, it sounds all Greek if you are not a little familar with it.
You see the fertilizer bags for your lawn etc, they have 3 numbers,
NPK, % of the these same fertilizers, Nitrogen(N), Phosphorus(P), and
Potassium(K).

Yes. Those are the ones I'm familiar with - along with the micronutrients
mentioned on the containers of regular houseplant fertilizers.

Now Farmer Bigweed is no chemist either..............but he knows that
adding his fertilizer 3x a week on his rice keeps the algae back and
the rice growing well.
He's a little worried that his crops might get burned from all this
fertilizer and potential for build up.

So he drains the field once a week and then adds the fertilizer right
back to prevent any residual build up.

I see.

The main difference between us and Farmer Bigweed is that we use only
dose NO3, not NH4 (Ammonium, you know the stuff that kills fish real
well even if there's a little).

I know the stuff.

Otherwise, it's the same............
Farmer Bigweed needs no test kits because he knows how much water
volume is in his fields, and he knows how much kilograms of fertilizer
he needs to add to get a good level of NO3.

So if he changes say 50% of the water in the rice field, he will never
build uop more than 2x the maxmimum amount dosed for that week.

You can easily estimate tha ppms using a dosing caluculator on
line(there are many, see Chuck Gadd's dosing calculator).

I know adding 1/4 teaspoon of KNO3 will add 10-11ppm of NO3 to an 20
gal tank for each dose.

So if I dose 3x a week: 30ppm total.

If I assume that the plants will not take up any and do weekly 50%
water changes, the max build up possible is 60ppm NO3.

This is a simple mathmatical equation referred to as an infinite series
of dilutions.

4x 7 = 28ppm.

Brevity snip!

Give me a tank volume and light, whether you use CO2 or not, and I can
prescribe a very simple, cheap way to dose it and target these levels.

OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of
shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available
in my area.

You can read more about EI and there's even an "EI light" version
around on the web etc



Thanks... I'll check this out. :-)

You can reach -Ed Alston at

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Or http://aquaria.net/articles/plants/barr-dose/
=====================================
OK, so you buy the chemicals and "estimate." That can work I suppose. I
bought the Seachem products. I followed the amounts on the containers of
Excel, Iron and trace elements. The new plants still slowly faded
away......

If you're not adding KNO3 that's your problem.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote:
OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the
information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of
shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available
in my area.

-------------------
From: Richard Sexton - view profile
Date: Mon, Mar 27 2006 12:15 am

In article ,

Koi-Lo wrote:

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Koi-Lo wrote:
Do you know a good online place to buy hydroponic fertilizers? I can't
find
anywhere local that sells the stuff.

http://gregwatson.com
=========================
Thanks Richard.

---------------------------

From: Richard Sexton - view profile
Date: Mon, Feb 27 2006 1:33 pm
In article ,

Koi-Lo wrote:
Not aquarium fertilizers.

$3.79 for 8 oz. of aquarium fertilizer isn't cheap when you have a lot of
tanks, some of them large.

You're paying for water and platic. You need to get the dry checmicals
from gregwatson.com or any hydroponics.com franchise. $4 a pound for
KN03 will treat aobuot 10,000 gallosn for about a year.

----------------------------

From: Richard Sexton - view profile
Date: Wed, Mar 29 2006 4:54 pm
In article ,

Koi-Lo wrote:

"2pods" wrote in message
...
I use Seachem "Flourish".
I'm also thinking about Seachem "Excel" in addition.
==================
These are excellent products but it can get expensive if you have a lot of
tanks or have large tanks.

True enough. But, http://www.gregwatson.com sells powders in bulk
so you can make your own. Excel has no second source though (dammit).

Greg's stuff is very very cheap.


--
Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org
Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org
1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net
633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net

"Richard Sexton" wrote in message
...
Or http://aquaria.net/articles/plants/barr-dose/
=====================================
OK, so you buy the chemicals and "estimate." That can work I suppose. I
bought the Seachem products. I followed the amounts on the containers of
Excel, Iron and trace elements. The new plants still slowly faded
away......

If you're not adding KNO3 that's your problem.
=======================
I added Muriate of Potash. None of the local stores I called had Potassium
Nitrate. The Seachem "Flourish" also contains Potash.
--
KL....
Frugal ponding since 1995.
Aquariums since 1952.
My Pond & Aquarium Pages:
http://tinyurl.com/9do58
~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({*