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#61
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Black Alge?
Hobby test kits are nowhere near accurate.
========================== So I've heard. The test kits that are accurate are hundreds of dollars, therefore out of the question to purchase for many of us. We have to rely on what we have, also assuming our fish are providing nitrate the plats can use. You don't need test kits. Read Tom's message again. -- Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
#62
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Black Alge?
wrote in message ups.com... OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available in my area. Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc? They sell stump remover. I live in the USA and none of these places carry it. I never heard of Canadian Tire. I even tried a health food store. They didn't have it either. Most places carry fertilizers as mixes such as 5-10-5 or 10-10-10 etc or organic products such as bone mean or blood meal. In my outdoor gardens I use some woodash from the fire place and regular garden mixes above. I only found one place called Martin's, run by Mennonites that sold Potash, Nitrates and Phos' separately. You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also. I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those mentioned above. 1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1 pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap. It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem products, I hesitate to purchase them. For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge. But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem products? No store will take plants with black-red algae even for free. My pond plants are raised at pot-top water level so have no algae problems. Do you mean adding extra NPK will kill off the algae like the Exel was supposed to do? And if I add these other products then there will be a CO2 shortage and I fear I'll be told to buy even more products to add that to the water....... where does it end? You obviously have enough $$$ to have hobbies like aquariums and plants etc, so do not give me the poor me routine. Yes, and I already spend a lot more on this hobby than I should. That's your own barrier you place on yourself there. You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants, other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue. I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not even take them for free. If I want something, I go get it. As do I. I got the other products I was told to purchase and they didn't work, so why would I believe these other products will work? Especially without added CO2 gas forced into the tanks. If they don't work and get rid of the red-black algae then what? More money down the drain and I'll be told I did something "wrong" again. Then more products will be suggested? I spend well over $120 on plants, the extra lighting for the tanks, the Excel, iron and other "nutrients" and the new plants happily faded away. Meanwhile the old plants kept right on trucking. But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I........... You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think that is true is all and not worth your time/$. See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other products will work? Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you get 500X less ferts. That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping. 18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue. Ebay or Craig's list something. If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2 which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks. We got brains, so putting them use to pay for something you want is not too hard. Our local plant club suspended memebership dues 2 years ago. We generate all of our funds via plant sales to other clubs, local folks, ebay, CL's, local fish societies that often do not have many plants but pay well for them...... So membership is not an issue for new folks. There is nothing like that were I live. We have a pond club but they don't bother with aquarium plants. You might want to piggy back on someone else local to share on the shipping also...... You have many options and ways to get around the $ issue. But that's up to you.......... See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate to spend even more on products that will also fail to keep new and different plants alive. The other expense would be to discard all the plants I have and sterilize all the tanks to get rid of the black-red algae first. Then start all over again with all new plants free of this RB algae plague - if that's even possible. Then order all the "foods" from Greg and see what happens...... if they fail as did the Seachem products I'll be told to order a CO2 infuser so the plants can utilize all these foods. Or someone will claim the four 40w tubes are all wrong and to purchase xxxxx brand tubes. All I wanted was some new plants for a change and to get rid of the RB algae, not get involved into an expensive major project with no guarantee or certainty of succeeding. I can't help notice you didn't mention lighting or CO2 injection when recommending I use all these GregWatson additives/fertilizers. -- KL.... Frugal ponding since 1995. Aquariums since 1952. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({* |
#63
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Black Alge?
On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 23:38:00 -0500, "Koi-Lo" ¤?¤@ö½.Õ..Õ¢ wrote:
wrote in message oups.com... OK... I have 55g tanks and 10g tanks,... all planted. I would love the information and where I can get cheap fertilizers without the high cost of shipping and handling ($18 per order). Potassium nitrate is not available in my area. Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc? They sell stump remover. I live in the USA and none of these places carry it. I never heard of Canadian Tire. I even tried a health food store. They didn't have it either. Most places carry fertilizers as mixes such as 5-10-5 or 10-10-10 etc or organic products such as bone mean or blood meal. In my outdoor gardens I use some woodash from the fire place and regular garden mixes above. I only found one place called Martin's, run by Mennonites that sold Potash, Nitrates and Phos' separately. Oh and just because you live nthe USA do yu think you should have special treatment. So ****ing what I live i the USA too and can get any of the crap....real easy. Your just too ****ing lazy CArol, you would rather propagate socks You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also. I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those mentioned above. You shit, yur too busy ****ing off and lying to do any legg work and too chepa to call on a phone long distance perhaps 1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1 pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap. It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem products, I hesitate to purchase them. Like I said yur a cheap old bitch CArol For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge. Too much work for CArol, She does not do anywhere near what she claims she does its all talk no action But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem products? No store will take plants with black-red algae even for free. My pond plants are raised at pot-top water level so have no algae problems. Do you mean adding extra NPK will kill off the algae like the Exel was supposed to do? And if I add these other products then there will be a CO2 shortage and I fear I'll be told to buy even more products to add that to the water....... where does it end? Carol would rather argue and bitch than try You obviously have enough $$$ to have hobbies like aquariums and plants etc, so do not give me the poor me routine. Carol has books full of excuses she can use.Yu have not heard a fraction of her excuses yet.. Yes, and I already spend a lot more on this hobby than I should. Then get the **** out of it Carol, yuyr presents certianly will not be missed That's your own barrier you place on yourself there. You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants, other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue. It takes energy and effort neithe rof which carol possesses I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not even take them for free.Who would want crap fro yu carol if it even looks half assed like you do If I want something, I go get it. Carol waits for mushroom randy to shoplift it. and if it won;t fit in his pockets she says its not needed. As do I. I got the other products I was told to purchase and they didn't work, so why would I believe these other products will work? Especially without added CO2 gas forced into the tanks. If they don't work and get rid of the red-black algae then what? More money down the drain and I'll be told I did something "wrong" again. Then more products will be suggested? I spend well over $120 on plants, the extra lighting for the tanks, the Excel, iron and other "nutrients" and the new plants happily faded away. Meanwhile the old plants kept right on trucking. Your life is down the drain why not pour the money down there tool But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I........... You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think that is true is all and not worth your time FREE is carols version of cheap...anything else is expensive See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other products will work? Because yu always cut corners and use improper items to achieve desired results wh ich always fails miserably........POTASSIUM CHLORIDE hahahahahaha Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you get 500X less ferts. That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping. 18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue. Ebay or Craig's list something. It would take a credit card and carols cards are maxed out...... If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2 which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks. HOme brew CO 2 is easy to make and add and operate if needed...dumbasss! We got brains, so putting them use to pay for something you want is not too hard. Our local plant club suspended memebership dues 2 years ago. We generate all of our funds via plant sales to other clubs, local folks, ebay, CL's, local fish societies that often do not have many plants but pay well for them...... So membership is not an issue for new folks. Carol lacks brains, thats a guarantee as well as morales There is nothing like that were I live. We have a pond club but they don't bother with aquarium plants. Yes there is, they keep it secret as no one wants yu in their organizations. They elect their offiers they do not allow self appointed officers or officials. You might want to piggy back on someone else local to share on the shipping also...... Yea carol and that doe snot mean doing it doggy style, but then again she wou dhave to have a real friend, which she does not, only socks and internet asociates. You have many options and ways to get around the $ issue. But that's up to you.......... Too much effort for CArol too easy to bitch and cry about it than do something about it....Thats CArols way. See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate to spend even more on products that will also fail to keep new and different plants alive. The other expense would be to discard all the plants I have and sterilize all the tanks to get rid of the black-red algae first. Then start all over again with all new plants free of this RB algae plague - if that's even possible. Then order all the "foods" from Greg and see what happens...... if they fail as did the Seachem products I'll be told to order a CO2 infuser so the plants can utilize all these foods. Or someone will claim the four 40w tubes are all wrong and to purchase xxxxx brand tubes. All I wanted was some new plants for a change and to get rid of the RB algae, not get involved into an expensive major project with no guarantee or certainty of succeeding. I can't help notice you didn't mention lighting or CO2 injection when recommending I use all these GregWatson additives/fertilizers. Face it Carol your just a ****ing dumbased carpet bagger from New York City with a chip on her shoulder.............suffer bitch suffer. -- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com |
#64
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Black Alge?
Hi..
It's in the APD archives. Many many times. Thanks, Richard..! I didn't know but don't get out of patience.. :-) -- cu Marco |
#65
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Black Alge?
Hi..
Well, they are not dealing specifically with aquarium either........ Sorry but those biologists are fish keepers, too. I am specifically an Aquatic biologist Yes. and I deal specifically with algae and aquatic weeds. Natural systems are radically different than artifical ones like our tanks. More variables........... Well.., took notice of your link and several posts in public databases. Thanks for all..! Generalizing for all BGA's in natural systems? That's too general and too complex to say. See above-mentioned. "Well known" does not imply they are right or effective.......just that they are well known....... :-) Those methods I described are of course effective, too. Well, drive the NO3 down and see. Well.., I've some personal experiences in avoiding (black and other) algae and personally I don't miss them. www.BarrReport.com Interesting page I will study soon..! Thanks. -- cu Marco |
#66
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Black Alge?
Have you tried Home Depiot , Lowes, Canadian Tire etc?
They sell stump remover. I live in the USA and none of these places carry it. I never heard of Look for "stump remover". Read the label (or google the brand name). You should be able to find one in a hardware store that contains potassium nitrate. Most of them do. KNOW (Potassium nitrate, saltpeter) used to be very very common and on every drugstore shelf as it has human and animnal medicinal uses but in a post 911 world this major component of gunpowder is now in the "you may sign for it" category. Any drug store CAN get it for you but it's stupid expensive. But, it's still the only decent stump remover so try then route. It's cheap in this form. You may want to get some ferts locally if you refuse to pay a shipping charge, gas and running around will cost a fair amount also. I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those mentioned above. Muriate of potash is Potassium chloride which is seldom used in terrestrial gardening and when it is, carefully, and is never used in aquatic gardening. It's essentially, salt. Salt is Sodium chloride and Potasium chloride is essentially the exact same thing with potassium replacing sodium. It's sometimes used as a salt substitute for people on low sodium diets. In an aquarium you'd be driving the potassium too high and the deleterious effects of that are pretty well understood and the chloride ions will do plants no good. 1lb or KNO3 and 1 lb of KH2PO4 and maybe some CMS+B(the trace element dry mix which is enough to make several gallons of trace mix for 1 pound) might make that shiiping charge seem for cheap. It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem products, I hesitate to purchase them. I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD. But, ask people what has worked. You'll find a distinct lack of Potassium chloride and a common element in succesfull aquatic gardens is the use of potassium nitrate. This is about 10-15 years old now in constant and daily use and you'd be hard pressed to find it's use earlier than that. For 25$ or so with the shipping, you can fertilize the tank for several years and have much better growth, thus you can send and sell the plants easy and make up that few $ in shipping charge. But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem products? Experience. Lots of it. By many people over a large number of years. The seachem products work fine when properly used. Adding potassium chloride instead of potassium nitrate is probably going to screw everthing up though, although it's not a mistake I've heard of anybody making so far, so thanks for the data point. That's your own barrier you place on yourself there. You have luxury items like pets, 18$ can be had by selling plants, other things laying around if a fixed income is really the issue. I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not even take them for free. Typical. Try selling to hobbyists. If I want something, I go get it. As do I. I got the other products I was told to purchase and they didn't work, so why would I believe these other products will work? Asked an answered. But you certainly do not "need" an aquarium......nor do I........... You can check locally, but the shipping barrier is of your own creation and getting the ferts which are dirt cheap and last a long time will provide the means to grow the plants much better, you just do not think that is true is all and not worth your time/$. See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other products will work? Asked and answered. Try and get the ferts of a commericial brand cheaper, you cannot do it.They might cost less initially but after one round of dosing, there goes the cost and you have to pay tax, extra for a pretty label and you get 500X less ferts. That's fine, but it's not because they are $$ on shipping. 18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue. Ebay or Craig's list something. If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2 I don't use CO2 on purpose. I know it'll work I've seen the (spectacular) results and know I can get MUCH better plant grown (especially crypts) if I use it, but being a luddite at heart I want to see how good I can get without. which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks. Not a good indicator given their chemical composition. Do you think the poeple that have near-universally reported that it does do a nasty number on alage are lying? As far as I can tell one other guy said it didn't work for him but everybody else noted the was death on algae. I've never tried excel without KNO3. See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate Carol - you bought the wrong chemical. Try the right ones that people have had wondefull success with. You've been asking for 4 months how to solve this problem and many people have told you how and you've done something different and it didn't work. Try doing what people have found works. Try following the answers you've been asking for instead of making stuff up. Barring that, try prayer. -- Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
#68
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Black Alge?
"Richard Sexton" wrote in message ... Look for "stump remover". Read the label (or google the brand name). KNOW (Potassium nitrate, saltpeter) used to be very very common and on every drugstore shelf as it has human and animnal medicinal uses but in a post 911 world this major component of gunpowder is now in the "you may sign for it" category. Any drug store CAN get it for you but it's stupid expensive. I'll look for the stump-remover. I believe I saw that at one of the stores. I looked for them locally. All I found was Muriate of Potash and those mentioned above. Muriate of potash is Potassium chloride which is seldom used in terrestrial gardening and when it is, carefully, and is never used in aquatic gardening. It's essentially, salt. And yet it works so well in my ponds and plant prop' tanks. I don't add regular salt to my ponds. Salt is Sodium chloride and Potasium chloride is essentially the exact same thing with potassium replacing sodium. It's sometimes used as a salt substitute for people on low sodium diets. Understood. :-) In an aquarium you'd be driving the potassium too high and the deleterious effects of that are pretty well understood and the chloride ions will do plants no good. What would be the signs of too much potassium in an aquarium? After all I can add too much stump-remover as well (PN). It would be $30 for all the stuff on the Gregwatson page but I didn't see any micronutrients there. I would then have to get someone to figure out the mixtures per tank according to gallonage and fish load etc. Since there is no guarantee these products will work any better than the expensive Seachem products, I hesitate to purchase them. I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD. That's exactly how I feel - yes. But, ask people what has worked. You'll find a distinct lack of Potassium chloride and a common element in succesfull aquatic gardens is the use of potassium nitrate. This is about 10-15 years old now in constant and daily use and you'd be hard pressed to find it's use earlier than that. OK,... but as I recall I was told there was too much nitrate and phosphorus in my tanks last winter, and that was the cause of the RB algae. I was told to do major water changes and really clean the gravel, which I did. Why do this and then add more nitrate and phosphate from GregWatson? Can you see what's so confusing here? But what makes you believe these products will work better than the Seachem products? Experience. Lots of it. By many people over a large number of years. The seachem products work fine when properly used. Adding potassium chloride instead of potassium nitrate is probably going to screw everthing up though, although it's not a mistake I've heard of anybody making so far, so thanks for the data point. PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products somehow fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived of this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP. I'll see of there's a market here for aquarium plants. The chains will not even take them for free. Typical. Try selling to hobbyists. What hobbyists? I live in a rural area far from any cities. I don't even know any hobbyist here. The last one moved 5 years ago giving me her pond and aquarium fish. See above. The other products that were recommended did almost nothing after the initial "boost" to the plants. What makes you think these other products will work? Asked and answered. So you're claiming I was supposed to add more NITRATE using PNitrate after being told there was TOO MUCH nitrate and to do all those massive water changes and gravel vacuuming to REMOVE the nitrate. That the sodium Potash doesn't work in aquariums - although it works in outdoor tubs and ponds........ 18$ can be had many ways if the cost is an issue. Ebay or Craig's list something. If I *KNEW* they would work I would order them. First I have no added CO2 I don't use CO2 on purpose. I know it'll work I've seen the (spectacular) results and know I can get MUCH better plant grown (especially crypts) if I use it, but being a luddite at heart I want to see how good I can get without. So tell me EXACTLY what and how much you are adding or would add to 55g tanks that contain 6 half grown goldfish, 2 tens with 2 small goldfish each and a 10g with about 15 platys. All contain a few otos and the 55s contain otos and 2 plecs each. If I don't do EXACTLY what you do and it fails I don't want to hear I did something wrong, I added the wrong stuff, I added the wrong amount, I didn't do any tests for too much of this or that, or didn't do enough massive water changes to remove all the phos' and nitrate etc, etc......... I'm not a chemist so how much would you add of each product? How many gallons of water would you change per week? How much gravel vacuuming do you do each week? which will be the next thing someone suggests is needed when adding all these GredWatson "foods" to the tanks.... right? How can the plants utilize the extra food without added CO2? Apparently Excel does nothing but slow the growth of algae - from what I have seen in my tanks. Not a good indicator given their chemical composition. Do you think the poeple that have near-universally reported that it does do a nasty number on alage are lying? As far as I can tell one other guy said it didn't work for him but everybody else noted the was death on algae. Why would I lie? Why would he lie? Did all those people it worked for have our water conditions and fish load? How can we know that? I went and bought 1g of the stuff plus all the other things recommended here. Add S&H and it wasn't cheap. And I expected the algae to turn white.... and I waited, and I waited and I waited and finally went and bought the plecos and otos. See above. Since the Seachem products did nothing for the new plants (why were they even recommended?), and only a little for the old ones, I hesitate Carol - you bought the wrong chemical. Try the right ones that people have had wondefull success with. I bought what I was told to buy. Why was the Seachem chemicals recommended then? The one does contain Potassium. You've been asking for 4 months how to solve this problem and many people have told you how and you've done something different and it didn't work. I did what was recommend - see above. I bought what I was told to buy and I bought them from Foster and Smith. No one said only GredWatson's products worked - that the Seachem products shouldn't be used. I don't understand this. Now I'm being told I should add a MORE nitrate (with the potash) after being told NITRATE was part of the problem - that if I buy GregWatsons's products including PONitrate the plants will flourish and the RB algae will die........ where does all the Seachem "foods" come in then, including the Excel? Try doing what people have found works. Try following the answers you've been asking for instead of making stuff up. Making what stuff up? You mean I'm making up that I was told to do massive water changes, that I was told to vacuum the gravel and stop feeding the fish so much? That it was adding to the nitrate/phos load? I'm making this all up about Excel supposedly turning RB algae white and making it fall off the plants and glass? I made up that one of you told me that would happen using Excel? What exactly am I making up here? Barring that, try prayer. Prayer? What should I pray for? Insulting me is not going to make me buy your friends products when the other products recommend here didn't work. -- Frugal ponding since 1995. Aquariums since 1952. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({* |
#69
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Black Alge?
In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote: I'll look for the stump-remover. I believe I saw that at one of the stores. Well there ya go then. The label should say what's in it, I *think* there's one that doesn't have KNO3 but the rest do. You can goodle the brand name as this has been discussed to death in ages past. It's essentially, salt. And yet it works so well in my ponds and plant prop' tanks. I don't add regular salt to my ponds. Well you would;nt need to :-) It'll help build up potassium and if your pond is potassium deficient it'll do some good I guess if the chloride ions don't build up too much. The old Tetra fertilizer was just potassium, in tanks with a high fish load this is sometimes all you need, but only in very rare cases. Still the chloride ion buildup is an issue without water changes. What would be the signs of too much potassium in an aquarium? After all I can add too much stump-remover as well (PN). I don't remember off hand, but people have had issues with it. I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD. That's exactly how I feel - yes. Yeah, it's a funny feeling but it goes away when you see what good it does. The same checmicals that gave me great trepidation a year ago I now dump in as routine and I haven't see that awful black algae since and remember I battled it for 7 years and tried bleach, peroxide, you name it. When I quit being so damn stubborn and just did that Tom Barr said and threw away my nitrate test kit things starting looking like showcase planted tanks around here. OK,... but as I recall I was told there was too much nitrate and phosphorus in my tanks last winter, and that was the cause of the RB algae. I was told to do major water changes and really clean the gravel, which I did. Why do this and then add more nitrate and phosphate from GregWatson? Can you see what's so confusing here? High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does. Tom and I have both tried way too high nitrate and phosphate and it does absolutely not cause algae. In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing product - algae grows very well. PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products somehow fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived of this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP. It's really pointless to speculate what happens when things go wrong with the wrohg recipe, there's too many failure modes, and frankly who cares? Do the right thing and things will be fine. 1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically. 2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days 3) Fertilize properly. -- Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
#70
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Black Alge?
"Richard Sexton" wrote in message ... In article , Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote: I'll look for the stump-remover. I believe I saw that at one of the stores. Well there ya go then. The label should say what's in it, I *think* there's one that doesn't have KNO3 but the rest do. You can goodle the brand name as this has been discussed to death in ages past. I can check at Lowe's and Home Depot as I have access to both stores plus ACE Hardware. It's essentially, salt. And yet it works so well in my ponds and plant prop' tanks. I don't add regular salt to my ponds. Well you would;nt need to :-) It'll help build up potassium and if your pond is potassium deficient it'll do some good I guess if the chloride ions don't build up too much. Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive. The only plants I've had to die outside were the borderline hardies in winter. I'm hoping my new greenhouse will keep them alive from now on. :-) Someone offered us a free gas greenhouse heater for this winter. BTW, I add it to the outdoor tanks the fish are in, and so far no problems. I don't add the garden fertilizer to tanks with fish, just the Muriate of Potash. The old Tetra fertilizer was just potassium, in tanks with a high fish load this is sometimes all you need, but only in very rare cases. Still the chloride ion buildup is an issue without water changes. Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe. What would be the signs of too much potassium in an aquarium? After all I can add too much stump-remover as well (PN). I don't remember off hand, but people have had issues with it. Since I don't know either I add it in small amounts since the Seachem contains it. I understand the mindset of "oh god I've added all these chamicals and had no or bad results why should I ad more". BDTD. That's exactly how I feel - yes. Yeah, it's a funny feeling but it goes away when you see what good it does. Well, if I decide to replace all the plants that faded away I will definitely try to find someone who can advise me on the correct amounts to add to my tanks. This time I'll make sure I get plants that can tolerate my hard alkaline water. No amount of fertilizer is going to make them live and flourish in the "wrong" water. The same checmicals that gave me great trepidation a year ago I now dump in as routine and I haven't see that awful black algae since and remember I battled it for 7 years and tried bleach, peroxide, you name it. When I quit being so damn stubborn and just did that Tom Barr said and threw away my nitrate test kit things starting looking like showcase planted tanks around here. I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks. Mine are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste. OK,... but as I recall I was told there was too much nitrate and phosphorus in my tanks last winter, and that was the cause of the RB algae. I was told to do major water changes and really clean the gravel, which I did. Why do this and then add more nitrate and phosphate from GregWatson? Can you see what's so confusing here? High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does. If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered (especially the platy fry) and it would have shown on my test kits. Ammonia always reads zero once the tanks cycle. And that's even after a filter cleaning along with a gravel vac, major water change and Vortex polishing. Tom and I have both tried way too high nitrate and phosphate and it does absolutely not cause algae. So then what did? What was the ammonia reading at the time? If there was ammonia, how did you keep the fish alive? In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing product - algae grows very well. So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae? High nitrate and Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia come in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I have no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit. PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products somehow fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived of this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP. It's really pointless to speculate what happens when things go wrong with the wrohg recipe, there's too many failure modes, and frankly who cares? Do the right thing and things will be fine. And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start using them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go away?!?!?! Hummm... that's pretty much what I was told the Excel and Flourish products would do. :-) Since I'm not a chemist nor can I afford the accurate test kits on the market I have little chance to guess the correct amounts to add to my aquariums. 1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically. Yes, I've done that several times with the help of the plecos. 2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the mirconutrients, the iron...... 3) Fertilize properly. I am fertilizing properly according the the Seachem products I bought from Foster & Smith. -- KL.... Frugal ponding since 1995. Aquariums since 1952. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({* |
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Black Alge?
In article ,
Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote: "Richard Sexton" wrote in message ... In article , Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote: Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive. And if you cut a frogs legs off and tell it to jump and it doesn't it's obviously deaf. Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe. No. Do the math. Well, if I decide to replace all the plants that faded away I will definitely try to find someone who can advise me on the correct amounts to add to my tanks. This time I'll make sure I get plants that can tolerate my hard alkaline water. No amount of fertilizer is going to make them live and flourish in the "wrong" water. Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index whose link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts. I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks. Mine are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste. Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here. High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does. If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on a kit, they're dead already. (especially the platy fry) and it would have shown on my test kits. Ammonia always reads zero once the tanks cycle. And that's even after a filter cleaning along with a gravel vac, major water change and Vortex polishing. Tom and I have both tried way too high nitrate and phosphate and it does absolutely not cause algae. So then what did? What was the ammonia reading at the time? If there was ammonia, how did you keep the fish alive? Beats me, I don't test regualrly for ammonia. I've only tested once when I fuond a flock of curled up shrimp causes by an ammonia spike when a lot of new emersed crypts were added. Dead leaves cause a LOT of ammonia even in a big tank. In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing product - algae grows very well. So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae? High nitrate and Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia come in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I have no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit. No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it. PROBABLY? We can't know that since it works great in my outside tubs and ponds. Are you saying the all the potassium in the Seachem products somehow fought-it-out with the Muriate of Potash and the plants were all deprived of this mineral? How can one suppress the other? I added very little MofP. It's really pointless to speculate what happens when things go wrong with the wrohg recipe, there's too many failure modes, and frankly who cares? Do the right thing and things will be fine. And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start using them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go away?!?!?! No, use them according to the formulas every body else has and does and has success with that's been posted here hundreds of times the latest being the day before yesterday. Hummm... that's pretty much what I was told the Excel and Flourish products would do. :-) Since I'm not a chemist nor can I afford the accurate test kits on the market I have little chance to guess the correct amounts to add to my aquariums. You don't need any test kits. 1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically. Yes, I've done that several times with the help of the plecos. Keep doing it. 2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the mirconutrients, the iron...... You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3. 3) Fertilize properly. I am fertilizing properly according the the Seachem products I bought from Foster & Smith. You are not adding nitrate. You need to. -- Need Mercedes parts? http://parts.mbz.org Richard Sexton | Mercedes stuff: http://mbz.org 1970 280SE, 72 280SE | Home pages: http://rs79.vrx.net 633CSi 250SE/C 300SD | http://aquaria.net http://killi.net |
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Black Alge?
*Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups.
"Richard Sexton" wrote in message ... In article , Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote: "Richard Sexton" wrote in message ... In article , Koi-Lo My impersonator is Roy TJ Hauer aka Roy. wrote: Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive. And if you cut a frogs legs off and tell it to jump and it doesn't it's obviously deaf. Well I guess they're salt-water pond plants then, as they're thriving as seen on my website. ;-) Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe. No. Do the math. What math? You already said fertilizers don't build up with massive 85% water changes. You add Greg's products then do weekly water changes which prevent build-ups. That's changed now to water changes don't prevent build-ups? That even when removed the fertilizers build up? Well, if I decide to replace all the plants that faded away I will definitely try to find someone who can advise me on the correct amounts to add to my tanks. This time I'll make sure I get plants that can tolerate my hard alkaline water. No amount of fertilizer is going to make them live and flourish in the "wrong" water. Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index whose link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts. I saw no estimate index for 55g tanks and 10gs with different fish loads and different Hardness and PHs. Odd that soft water, acid water plants do better in hard alkaline water for you. I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks. Mine are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste. Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here. What ammonia? These are cycled tanks. Are you claiming all test kids are wrong? High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does. If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on a kit, they're dead already. No thanks. All I can get here are unattractive feeder shrimp. In a tank with no nitrate added and a phosphate removing product - algae grows very well. So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae? High nitrate and Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia come in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I have no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit. No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it. I see. Then the biologists that had Phos' removed from detergents were all wrong about Phos. It was really ammonia in these products that turned lakes and rivers green with algae? Odd how when the phos was removed the algae went with it. Do the right thing and things will be fine. And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start using them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go away?!?!?! No, use them according to the formulas every body else has and does and has success with that's been posted here hundreds of times the latest being the day before yesterday. I see no post with "formulas" for 55g and 10g tanks at capacity...... it's not on my news-server. Nothing about how much to add depending on lightly planted and heavily planted tanks or tanks with light or heavy fish loads. Hummm... that's pretty much what I was told the Excel and Flourish products would do. :-) Since I'm not a chemist nor can I afford the accurate test kits on the market I have little chance to guess the correct amounts to add to my aquariums. You don't need any test kits. Why, since you said above that massive water changes don't really remove "build-ups" of excess fertilizers. How then do you remove any excess if water changes don't remove them? How you know there even is an excess? 1) Remove all the alage you can mechcnically. Yes, I've done that several times with the help of the plecos. Keep doing it. 2) Change 85% of the water a day for two days I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the mirconutrients, the iron...... You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3. What do you mean do it again? I never stopped doing it. So you'e claiming it all that ammonia that the test kits can't see nor can I stop unless I remove the fish from the tanks causing the algae? Just the opposite of what scientists found to cause it in lakes and rivers. And ammonia still reads zero. Geeze and I just started adding it (extra MofPo about 2 weeks ago). The Seachem products and endless water changes had 5 months to work before that and didn't do much more than turn some plants greener. 3) Fertilize properly. I am fertilizing properly according the the Seachem products I bought from Foster & Smith. You are not adding nitrate. You need to. How much nitrate per 55g tank of goldfish. A 10g tank of platys and 10g tanks with 2 GF each. There is no message with the correct formula on my news-server giving amounts depending on fish and plant load, etc. Also since you said above that water changes don't remove excess fertilizers it could be dangerous to the fish to overload the tanks. -- KL.... Aquariums since 1952. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups. ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({* |
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Black Alge?
Koi-Lo wrote: *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups. Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive. This is an assumption, plants assimilate and take up Chloride, if you remove any leaves etc, this exports Chloride out of the system as well as any water changes, Seepage into the pond hydrosoil etc, dilution from rain etc also influence this. Well I guess they're salt-water pond plants then, as they're thriving as seen on my website. ;-) I do not do any water changes on my dad's pond, I add 35-40% surface coverage Hyacinth and the water is forever gin clear, this weed grows and is scooped out to maintain roughly 30-50% coverage throughout the growing season. The plants export the salts, the nutrients etc. Happy fish, happy plants. If I did not remove the plants, they would over grow and choke the pond and stop O2 exchange and kill the fish. Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe. No. Do the math. What math? It's an infinite series. Look it up. The APD also did some backgound on why the ppms never buld up if you do water changes. Basically if you do weekly 50% water changes and dose nutrients, say NO3, if you dose 20ppm per week, the max build up possible will be 40ppm, that assumes no uptake by plants and no denitrification from bacteria. You already said fertilizers don't build up with massive 85% water changes. Nor 1/3 or 50% weekly changes, you have a wider range with less % of the total tank volume obviously, but 2x the total is a decent working % to use. You add Greg's products then do weekly water changes which prevent build-ups. That's changed now to water changes don't prevent build-ups? That even when removed the fertilizers build up? Ahhh, not sure what you are saying here. Semantics perhaps....... Richard sez: Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index whose link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts. I saw no estimate index for 55g tanks and 10gs with different fish loads and different Hardness and PHs. Odd that soft water, acid water plants do better in hard alkaline water for you. This is no surprise at all since most submersed plants are carbon limited and hard water has more total carbon available to provide the plants with. So soft water has little HCO3, which the plants can use if the CO2 is low and is normally the case. If you add CO2 to hard water, the plants will use that first though. Bowes and Van (UF) did a nice study that showed 3 submersed plants grew at a faster rate at harder KH's and higher pH's. Their conclusions was what I mentioned. I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks. Mine are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste. Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here. What ammonia? These are cycled tanks. Are you claiming all test kids are wrong? Perhaps, but overloaded tanks clearly have lots of algae. You can add everything else that fish waste produces, NO3, K, PO4, traces etc and never induce algae. The only thing missing is the urea(which is quickly converted to NH4 in water) and NH4. These big old turds the fish produce might not measure anything in the water column, but down on the gravel sitting there, it is a nice rich place and also where the algae spores are waiting for some nice rich NH4 to get started to grow well. So the NH4 is used up before the test kit can measure it often times, and after the fact as you see the aftermath of the algae bloom and are not monitoring it prior to the bloom.........by then the algae has goobled up most of the NH4 and the bacterial colony has increased in size. This is why you cannot use fish waste alone to run a much faster growing tank using CO2 and good lighting etc, the tank has too much NH4, not so much that harms fish, rather, enough to induce the algae spores. Once they are germinated, much like a weed, they will hang on and use NO3 and other nutrients. High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does. If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered Well, inducing algae spores and fish health NH4 levels are quite different. Do not confuse the two. Fish will die depending on their life stages and species over a wider range, algae need little NH4 present to start germinating to produce a bloom. Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on a kit, they're dead already. No thanks. All I can get here are unattractive feeder shrimp. You do not need them to grow algae free tanks full of weeds. So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae? No, the NH4 did. Low PO4 will stop the plant growth, it will not stop the algae growth which will not be limited until you get down to the parts per billion ranges of 20ppb or 10ppm or so, and that range is subjected to a error of 10ppb............ You do not own a test kit nor use a methid that can do this, no water quality lab is even capable of this as a rule, a few places at research centers can measure this low and they still have errors of 3-8ppb. So you cannot limit algae via PO4 even if you wanted to when you have aquatic plants present. The plants temselves are huge sources of PO4 and store lots in tissues, which if they are stunted and not growing, are decomposing, leeching and rotting, giving off small amounts of NH4/PO4. High nitrate and Phos together does not cause algae - only Nitrate alone - what about the ammonia? Did the POTASH cause the algae then? Where does the ammonia come in and what was the ammonia readings on your test kit when the algae appeared? Mine always reads zero ammonia and around 20ppm Nitrate. I have no idea about phos levels since I don't have a kit. See above. No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it. I see. Then the biologists that had Phos' removed from detergents were all wrong about Phos. No, you are comparing apples and oranges. What are we talking about here? Shallow fully planted lakes? You add PO4 to an other wise PO4 limited lake like that and you will not get algae, you will get more weeds! That's why aquatic weeds are such a serious issue!!! They spend billions on dealing with them due to this very reason. Search Bachmann,Canfield Hoyer and trophic status of Florida lakes (1984 to 2005 or so, there are several papers), which....are BTW, shallow, fully planted, subtropical(fairly warm and most of the year). Adding PO4 also changes the native plants, such as the Jamacian grass, Cladium to Typha(cattail) in the Everglades, no algae issues(less algae actually) due to the increase in PO4 levels. This is the center of the Evergalde restoration project which is a Billions of $$$ project. How do you remove millions of tones of PO4 and be cost effective with the techonolgy you have? Not an easy question nor answer. I am a Biologist BTW and I deal specifically with aquatic weeds in my research and algae is also something I have a good understanding and passion for. It was really ammonia in these products that turned lakes and rivers green with algae? Odd how when the phos was removed the algae went with it. Did these rivers, streams and lakes have plants? Did they have 30-50% coverage or greater? Did they freeze each winter? You'll note the never said much about that:-) If you leave that part out, you set yourself up for some very poor assumptions......... The more basic method is to simply try adding PO to fully planted tank with high levels of of the other nutrients nd see what ahppens under limited levels of PO4 and then add say 2ppm PO4. There is no algae induced. I do not care if you believe me or do the research, simply try it and see for yourself, then you'll know. I think they should ban PO4 but they should also ban NO3 and fertilizer run off from farms as well, that's killing the rivers, they can utilize created wetlands along the MS river and reduce the load way down. And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start using them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go away?!?!?! Well, some users have trouble, but few. Most are amazed. Do you add fertilizers to the gardern(organic or otherwise) or if you owned a farm? If you want the plants to grow for more than a season or two you will. I see no post with "formulas" for 55g and 10g tanks at capacity...... it's not on my news-server. Nothing about how much to add depending on lightly planted and heavily planted tanks or tanks with light or heavy fish loads. Assume fully planted, the more plants, the less chance you will have algae. Less light, at leats down to a point, is better also. This means slower more mangable growth, less CO2 demand, less NO3, K+ etc is needed. Are you adding CO2 or not? I can give you precise amounts if you say how planted the tanks are and if you use CO2 or not. You don't need any test kits. Why, since you said above that massive water changes don't really remove "build-ups" of excess fertilizers. How then do you remove any excess if water changes don't remove them? How you know there even is an excess? The water changes will prevent and build up. I think Richard and you mixed that one up, I know Richard meant to say that large water changes prevents a build up. I do not know how much K+, NO3, PO4 etc will cause algae. Fish die first at 120ppm + of KNO3, about 50% of the Amano shrimps died after 3 full days of that. Fish where still fine though(Wild SA fish). I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the mirconutrients, the iron...... You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3. What do you mean do it again? I never stopped doing it. Add KNO3 instead of KCL. So you'e claiming it all that ammonia that the test kits can't see nor can I stop unless I remove the fish from the tanks causing the algae? Well, let me ask you something .................would you enjoy being packed into a bathroom with 10 folks and not flushing the toilet for a week? Why overload a fish tank? Be reasonable about your stocking levels, big dirty cichlids, flithy dirt producing goldfish etc, they are not the same as a few tetras............. Reduced feedings, reduce stocking levels, happier place for fish and happier place for the plants. Larger tank etc. You can add lots of filter etc, do lots of water changes like Discus folks do........ Goldfish are tough animals........but does not mean you should abuse them. Give them a happy home. The base of the ecosystem is the plants, not the fish. Just the opposite of what scientists found to cause it in lakes and rivers. And ammonia still reads zero. Geeze and I just started adding it (extra MofPo about 2 weeks ago). The Seachem products and endless water changes had 5 months to work before that and didn't do much more than turn some plants greener. I'm a scientist and the lakes and river issue would be great if weeds did not grow.......but they do and they grow extremely fast when provided with rich nutrients..........but if you have no weeds there, turbid water where no light can get to, frozen lakes, very low % of the lake infested with the weeds, then algae will take up the slack. Well, those are pretty weak ferts also. You need more and CO2/Excel. You are not adding nitrate. You need to. How much nitrate per 55g tank of goldfish. A 10g tank of platys and 10g tanks with 2 GF each. There is no message with the correct formula on my news-server giving amounts depending on fish and plant load, etc. Also since you said above that water changes don't remove excess fertilizers it could be dangerous to the fish to overload the tanks. I think there is some misnderstanding there. Say if you use CO2 or Excel or not and I'll go from there. Regards, Tom Barr www.BarrReport.com -- KL.... Aquariums since 1952. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups. ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({* |
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Black Alge?
wrote in message ups.com... Koi-Lo wrote: *Note: There are two "Koi-Lo's" on the pond and aquaria groups. Evidently chloride ions don't build up because the outdoor plants thrive. This is an assumption, plants assimilate and take up Chloride, if you remove any leaves etc, this exports Chloride out of the system as well as any water changes, Seepage into the pond hydrosoil etc, dilution from rain etc also influence this. Whatever they're doing with it, they're thriving. These are lined ponds so there is no soil bottom to seep into. Rain would act like an indoor water change. Even with a heavy rain-fall there is seldom runoff because of evaporation. My ponds and outdoor tanks are seldom full to the top. Well I guess they're salt-water pond plants then, as they're thriving as seen on my website. ;-) I do not do any water changes on my dad's pond, I add 35-40% surface coverage Hyacinth and the water is forever gin clear, this weed grows and is scooped out to maintain roughly 30-50% coverage throughout the growing season. The plants export the salts, the nutrients etc. Happy fish, happy plants. * Because of the koi and goldfish eating the roots, water hyacinth will not live in my ponds. If I did not remove the plants, they would over grow and choke the pond and stop O2 exchange and kill the fish. Water changes would have taken care of any buildups I believe. No. Do the math. What math? It's an infinite series. Look it up. * I don't know what an infinite series is to look it up. The APD also did some backgound on why the ppms never buld up if you do water changes. * Please read what your friend said in his message above. Basically if you do weekly 50% water changes and dose nutrients, say NO3, if you dose 20ppm per week, the max build up possible will be 40ppm, that assumes no uptake by plants and no denitrification from bacteria. You already said fertilizers don't build up with massive 85% water changes. Nor 1/3 or 50% weekly changes, you have a wider range with less % of the total tank volume obviously, but 2x the total is a decent working % to use. You add Greg's products then do weekly water changes which prevent build-ups. That's changed now to water changes don't prevent build-ups? That even when removed the fertilizers build up? Ahhh, not sure what you are saying here. Semantics perhaps....... * Not semantics.... That's what he claimed and why I can't understand what he posts. Richard sez: Incorrect. Plants do better in hard water. And Tom's estimative index whose link has been posted here many times gives you the correct amounts. I saw no estimate index for 55g tanks and 10gs with different fish loads and different Hardness and PHs. Odd that soft water, acid water plants do better in hard alkaline water for you. This is no surprise at all since most submersed plants are carbon limited and hard water has more total carbon available to provide the plants with. So soft water has little HCO3, which the plants can use if the CO2 is low and is normally the case. If you add CO2 to hard water, the plants will use that first though. * Ok, when I find or meet someone here who has sof****er acid loving plants thriving in our hard alkaline water I would consider buying some. I never even met another aquarist who added CO2 to their tanks to keep plants alive. Bowes and Van (UF) did a nice study that showed 3 submersed plants grew at a faster rate at harder KH's and higher pH's. Their conclusions was what I mentioned. I believe you also said you only have a few small fish in your tanks. Mine are at capacity and goldfish produce a lot of waste. Hence the ammonia hence the algae. No surprise here. What ammonia? These are cycled tanks. Are you claiming all test kids are wrong? Perhaps, but overloaded tanks clearly have lots of algae. You can add everything else that fish waste produces, NO3, K, PO4, traces etc and never induce algae. * So what you mean is if you add even MORE plant food (fertilizers) the algae someone overeats and dies? Or the excess poisons it? Or do you have to purchase a load more plants to soak it up... all guessing since you already said test kids were unnecessary. The only thing missing is the urea(which is quickly converted to NH4 in water) and NH4. These big old turds the fish produce might not measure anything in the water column, but down on the gravel sitting there, it is a nice rich place and also where the algae spores are waiting for some nice rich NH4 to get started to grow well. * And where the plant roots are also waiting for some nice rich manure to fall....... So the NH4 is used up before the test kit can measure it often times, and after the fact as you see the aftermath of the algae bloom and are not monitoring it prior to the bloom.........by then the algae has goobled up most of the NH4 and the bacterial colony has increased in size. This is why you cannot use fish waste alone to run a much faster growing tank using CO2 and good lighting etc, the tank has too much NH4, not so much that harms fish, rather, enough to induce the algae spores. * But I wasn't using CO2 when the algae invaded these tanks. Once they are germinated, much like a weed, they will hang on and use NO3 and other nutrients. * Then why was I told to buy Excel and all those other products when they didn't, wouldn't and couldn't turn algae white and make it fall off? High nitrates and phosphates don't cause algae. Ammonia does. If there was high ammonia in the tanks the fish would have suffered Well, inducing algae spores and fish health NH4 levels are quite different. Do not confuse the two. Fish will die depending on their life stages and species over a wider range, algae need little NH4 present to start germinating to produce a bloom. * Then that means all fish must be removed except a few tiny ones, to prevent ammonia to feed the algae. Not true. They are remarkably tolerant. Try Amano shrimp, THEY'RE completely intolerant of ammonia, that is, by the time it registers on a kit, they're dead already. No thanks. All I can get here are unattractive feeder shrimp. You do not need them to grow algae free tanks full of weeds. * Then someone has to tell me how much, how often, what mixture, how many tiny fish per 55g tank etc. to get rid of the algae and stop pushing the baloney that Excel turns it white and makes it fall off everything. There's quite a difference in the storys I'm getting on how to get rid of algae. I'm not a chemist or mathematician so have no idea how how you figure out how much ammonia comes from one GF weighing so many grams so therefore I need to add so much Phos and Potash....... So nitrate alone (with phos removed) caused the algae? No, the NH4 did. Low PO4 will stop the plant growth, it will not stop the algae growth which will not be limited until you get down to the parts per billion ranges of 20ppb or 10ppm or so, and that range is subjected to a error of 10ppb............ * So to get rid of the ammonia and have algae free plants one must get rid of their ammonia producing fish. You do not own a test kit nor use a methid that can do this, no water quality lab is even capable of this as a rule, a few places at research centers can measure this low and they still have errors of 3-8ppb. So you cannot limit algae via PO4 even if you wanted to when you have aquatic plants present. The plants temselves are huge sources of PO4 and store lots in tissues, which if they are stunted and not growing, are decomposing, leeching and rotting, giving off small amounts of NH4/PO4. * I see. No, higt nitrate and high phosphate do NOT cause alage, they prevent it. This is the center of the Evergalde restoration project which is a Billions of $$$ project. How do you remove millions of tones of PO4 and be cost effective with the techonolgy you have? Not an easy question nor answer. I am a Biologist BTW and I deal specifically with aquatic weeds in my research and algae is also something I have a good understanding and passion for. * Ok so it comes down to finding a mathematician/scientist/biologist/horticulturist to figure out what I need to add to my tanks in the way of "foods" to starve out the algae - taking into consideration how many fish I have, my lighting, water PH and hardness, the plants already present and whatever else they would need to know to come up with the correct or near correct amounts. To puchase even more products and use them willy-nilly-guess-as-you-go is crazy. I have all these Seachem products that did nothing but turn the plants a deeper green that were already thriving, while all the new plants faded away..... It was really ammonia in these products that turned lakes and rivers green with algae? Odd how when the phos was removed the algae went with it. Did these rivers, streams and lakes have plants? Did they have 30-50% coverage or greater? Did they freeze each winter? You'll note the never said much about that:-) * I have no idea but most lakes and rivers I have seen have quite a few marginal plants. I know of no floaters here in the northern states. If you leave that part out, you set yourself up for some very poor assumptions......... The more basic method is to simply try adding PO to fully planted tank with high levels of of the other nutrients nd see what ahppens under limited levels of PO4 and then add say 2ppm PO4. * Google says PO is Polonium . Do you mean Potash? There is no algae induced. I do not care if you believe me or do the research, simply try it and see for yourself, then you'll know. * So I should buy nitrate and phos and potash and add high amounts - just guessing since I have no way to figure out how much to use. I think they should ban PO4 but they should also ban NO3 and fertilizer run off from farms as well, that's killing the rivers, they can utilize created wetlands along the MS river and reduce the load way down. * Without fertilizers the crops would be a waste. And the right thing is to buy all GregWatson's products and just start using them willy-nilly and the plants will thrive and the algae will go away?!?!?! Well, some users have trouble, but few. Most are amazed. * How do they know how much to use per tank or do they not keep fish? Do you add fertilizers to the gardern(organic or otherwise) or if you owned a farm? If you want the plants to grow for more than a season or two you will. * I use regular garden fertalizers accourding to bag. I see no post with "formulas" for 55g and 10g tanks at capacity...... it's not on my news-server. Nothing about how much to add depending on lightly planted and heavily planted tanks or tanks with light or heavy fish loads. Assume fully planted, the more plants, the less chance you will have algae. Less light, at leats down to a point, is better also. This means slower more mangable growth, less CO2 demand, less NO3, K+ etc is needed. * I use four 40w fluorescencents on the 55s because I don't like the looks of the toilet-bowl brown diatoms. Are you adding CO2 or not? I can give you precise amounts if you say how planted the tanks are and if you use CO2 or not. * No. I only use Excel. When it's gone I'm not buying more since it failed to turn the algae white as promised and does nothing for the plants that I can see. You don't need any test kits. Why, since you said above that massive water changes don't really remove "build-ups" of excess fertilizers. How then do you remove any excess if water changes don't remove them? How you know there even is an excess? The water changes will prevent and build up. I think Richard and you mixed that one up, I know Richard meant to say that large water changes prevents a build up. * Some of his messages totally confuse and frustrate me. I do not know how much K+, NO3, PO4 etc will cause algae. Fish die first at 120ppm + of KNO3, about 50% of the Amano shrimps died after 3 full days of that. Fish where still fine though(Wild SA fish). * I plan to pick some up at Lowe's or HD as soon as I go into town. I already went that route then used the recommended products - Excel, the mirconutrients, the iron...... You need to do it again, stop addking KCL and ass KNO3. What do you mean do it again? I never stopped doing it. Add KNO3 instead of KCL. * I don't have any - anyway all the new plants are about gone. The old standards are still plugging away as they've done for years now. ;-) I'll try and find it locally since S&H ($12 to $18) are more than the product from Greg. So you'e claiming it all that ammonia that the test kits can't see nor can I stop unless I remove the fish from the tanks causing the algae? Well, let me ask you something .................would you enjoy being packed into a bathroom with 10 folks and not flushing the toilet for a week? Why overload a fish tank? * They're not overloaded. They're at the recommended number - 5 goldfish for a 55g tank. We call that the maximum. Be reasonable about your stocking levels, big dirty cichlids, flithy dirt producing goldfish etc, they are not the same as a few tetras............. Reduced feedings, reduce stocking levels, happier place for fish and happier place for the plants. Larger tank etc. You can add lots of filter etc, do lots of water changes like Discus folks do........ Goldfish are tough animals........but does not mean you should abuse them. * Exactly! 5 GF are the recommended number for a 55g tank. As they get even larger I will remove one or two more per tank. Give them a happy home. The base of the ecosystem is the plants, not the fish. Well, those are pretty weak ferts also. You need more and CO2/Excel. * Yes I know. That's why I bought the micronutrients and iron. You are not adding nitrate. You need to. How much nitrate per 55g tank of goldfish. A 10g tank of platys and 10g tanks with 2 GF each. There is no message with the correct formula on my news-server giving amounts depending on fish and plant load, etc. Also since you said above that water changes don't remove excess fertilizers it could be dangerous to the fish to overload the tanks. I think there is some misnderstanding there. Say if you use CO2 or Excel or not and I'll go from there. * I'm using Excel at the recommended dose, the iron and the micros....... Thanks Regards, Tom Barr www.BarrReport.com -- KL.... Aquariums since 1952. My Pond & Aquarium Pages: http://tinyurl.com/9do58 ~~~~ }((((* ~~~ }{{{{(ö ~~~~ }((((({* |
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