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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Allen Smith
 
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Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

How do people manage to keep these things alive?

I've tried in 2 out of my 3 tanks and they have consistently failed to
thrive. They sometimes manage to hang on there for up 2 weeks, but
they always end up dead.

In one tank a 55g with an oscar and a plecostomus, they just simply
disapear. I have checked to see if they are just out of sight during
the day by looking with a flashlight during the night to try to find
any - no luck.

My other tank is a 72g that is heavily planted and has onyx sand as
the substrate (for comparision the 55g has a neutral substrate). In
this tank, oddly, the snails seem to hang on for a small period of
time, but their shells end up lightening in color (they start up a
dark brown, almost black) and I find them on the surface of the sand
dead. The onyx sand should be buffering the water to provide more gH
and kH correct? Shouldn't that be helping the snails out?

Lastly, my 3rd tank a 20 gallon has a profusion of Malaysian Trumpet
Snails, the tank is rarely fed and the gravel is neutral. I do not see
why this tank would differ from the 55 in chemistry as the water
changes occur at the same time and frequency - ie. the water chemisty
is exactly the same.

Do I lack suffient minerals in my other 2 tanks for whatever reason to
keep them alive? I know it is not food as I feed profusely and I know
that there is extra food. I even try leaving an extra algae wafer for
them when I do introduce them. They just won't stay alive.

My tap water is pH 7.2, gH 3, kH 5 - no other chemicals like flouride
etc, as it's well water. Do I need to add something to my tanks to
have the snails survive? Everyone seems to be able to keep them alive
except me. What is more frustrating is that they breed like crazy in
the 20 that I rarely feed and I routinely pull 30-50 adult snails out
of there to introduce to the other tanks.

I do not understand what I'm doing wrong.
Any suggestions on what I can do that might help them out? I really
want them to survive in my other tanks if at all possible.
I've racked my brains and all I can think of is I need more Ca, but I
cannot understand why they do well in a tank with the same water, but
do not do so well in a different tank.

Any help would be appreciated.

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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Rich Conley
 
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Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

Youve got an oscar in one of the tanks....big cichlids and
snail...hmmm...I wonder what happened there...lol...hes probably dining on
escargot every night...

Allen Smith wrote:

How do people manage to keep these things alive?

I've tried in 2 out of my 3 tanks and they have consistently failed to
thrive. They sometimes manage to hang on there for up 2 weeks, but
they always end up dead.

In one tank a 55g with an oscar and a plecostomus, they just simply
disapear. I have checked to see if they are just out of sight during
the day by looking with a flashlight during the night to try to find
any - no luck.

My other tank is a 72g that is heavily planted and has onyx sand as
the substrate (for comparision the 55g has a neutral substrate). In
this tank, oddly, the snails seem to hang on for a small period of
time, but their shells end up lightening in color (they start up a
dark brown, almost black) and I find them on the surface of the sand
dead. The onyx sand should be buffering the water to provide more gH
and kH correct? Shouldn't that be helping the snails out?

Lastly, my 3rd tank a 20 gallon has a profusion of Malaysian Trumpet
Snails, the tank is rarely fed and the gravel is neutral. I do not see
why this tank would differ from the 55 in chemistry as the water
changes occur at the same time and frequency - ie. the water chemisty
is exactly the same.

Do I lack suffient minerals in my other 2 tanks for whatever reason to
keep them alive? I know it is not food as I feed profusely and I know
that there is extra food. I even try leaving an extra algae wafer for
them when I do introduce them. They just won't stay alive.

My tap water is pH 7.2, gH 3, kH 5 - no other chemicals like flouride
etc, as it's well water. Do I need to add something to my tanks to
have the snails survive? Everyone seems to be able to keep them alive
except me. What is more frustrating is that they breed like crazy in
the 20 that I rarely feed and I routinely pull 30-50 adult snails out
of there to introduce to the other tanks.

I do not understand what I'm doing wrong.
Any suggestions on what I can do that might help them out? I really
want them to survive in my other tanks if at all possible.
I've racked my brains and all I can think of is I need more Ca, but I
cannot understand why they do well in a tank with the same water, but
do not do so well in a different tank.

Any help would be appreciated.


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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
350X_Rider
 
Posts: n/a
Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

Personally, I think the oscar and snails are an obvious problem...


"Allen Smith" wrote in message
om...
| How do people manage to keep these things alive?
|
| I've tried in 2 out of my 3 tanks and they have consistently failed to
| thrive. They sometimes manage to hang on there for up 2 weeks, but
| they always end up dead.
|
| In one tank a 55g with an oscar and a plecostomus, they just simply
| disapear. I have checked to see if they are just out of sight during
| the day by looking with a flashlight during the night to try to find
| any - no luck.
|
| My other tank is a 72g that is heavily planted and has onyx sand as
| the substrate (for comparision the 55g has a neutral substrate). In
| this tank, oddly, the snails seem to hang on for a small period of
| time, but their shells end up lightening in color (they start up a
| dark brown, almost black) and I find them on the surface of the sand
| dead. The onyx sand should be buffering the water to provide more gH
| and kH correct? Shouldn't that be helping the snails out?
|
| Lastly, my 3rd tank a 20 gallon has a profusion of Malaysian Trumpet
| Snails, the tank is rarely fed and the gravel is neutral. I do not see
| why this tank would differ from the 55 in chemistry as the water
| changes occur at the same time and frequency - ie. the water chemisty
| is exactly the same.
|
| Do I lack suffient minerals in my other 2 tanks for whatever reason to
| keep them alive? I know it is not food as I feed profusely and I know
| that there is extra food. I even try leaving an extra algae wafer for
| them when I do introduce them. They just won't stay alive.
|
| My tap water is pH 7.2, gH 3, kH 5 - no other chemicals like flouride
| etc, as it's well water. Do I need to add something to my tanks to
| have the snails survive? Everyone seems to be able to keep them alive
| except me. What is more frustrating is that they breed like crazy in
| the 20 that I rarely feed and I routinely pull 30-50 adult snails out
| of there to introduce to the other tanks.
|
| I do not understand what I'm doing wrong.
| Any suggestions on what I can do that might help them out? I really
| want them to survive in my other tanks if at all possible.
| I've racked my brains and all I can think of is I need more Ca, but I
| cannot understand why they do well in a tank with the same water, but
| do not do so well in a different tank.
|
| Any help would be appreciated.
|


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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Allen Smith
 
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Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

The oscar would try to eat the snails when he was still a baby, but he
is so large now that he ignores them, and even when he did try to eat
them they would be immediately spitten out. The snails have very tough
shells and I don't think a cichlid could crack them, if puffers can
damage their teeth on MTS then I don't think any cichlid could consume
them not even say midas complex cichlid.
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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
350X_Rider
 
Posts: n/a
Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

I've heard of oscars, 1/2 the size of a pl*co, killing the pl*co... by
ramming it.... I've seen Jack Dempseys do it, I've seen Green Terrors, Texas
Cichlids do it... so it's probably not too much of a stretch for the oscar
to do it...

Did you find the body of the snail? Shells? Crushed or intact?

my guess would still be the oscar, if you find crushed or peices of shells
scattered over a specific space...

secondly, we've not discussed water parameters, and if you know where you
are with that, then that's moot...

good luck..

"Allen Smith" wrote in message
om...
| The oscar would try to eat the snails when he was still a baby, but he
| is so large now that he ignores them, and even when he did try to eat
| them they would be immediately spitten out. The snails have very tough
| shells and I don't think a cichlid could crack them, if puffers can
| damage their teeth on MTS then I don't think any cichlid could consume
| them not even say midas complex cichlid.
|




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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Allen Smith
 
Posts: n/a
Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

This oscar at least, is very docile, the sailfin pleco is about 2-3"
larger than him and routinely he tries to bite it, but can't bite
through his skin and the pleco just ignores him. If the oscar is
bothersome enough he'll get a good whap on the side from the pleco
which makes him go hide. So overall, he isn't too much.

I do not find shattered or broken remains of the shells. I find empty
shells that have usually (but not always) whitened slightly. I don't
know if this is just due to decalficiation overtime of if they have
become calcium deficient and cannot repair their own shells and die
overtime as a result. It seems like concerning my water parameters
which I stated in my first message.

I use plain well water which comes from a well for the 55g tank. pH
7.2, gH 3, kH 5. The pH as it is well water can vary, but usually it
doesn't drop below 6.8 and is never higher than 7.2, the gH and kH
always stay the same. Water changes are done 2x weekly with 50%
changed if that is useful information.

What is confusing about all this is the tank the snails do flourish a
20 gallon with the same water parameters. Inhabitants consist of one
large angelfish and 2 varius tetras (rescued fish). As far as I can
tell they leave the snails alone and the snails flourish quite well in
that tank as the tank is the source of all my experiment snails (I
pull about 50 extra snails out of the tank each month at night and
dump them into either the 55 or 72).

In the 72g (same water, but with substrate of onyx sand that
supposedly raises hardness - did the first few months, but doesn't
now) I have tried raising the hardness by using 1blsp of Epson Salts
after each water changed, it did not seem to have any effect, so I
don't think they are dying because of a Mg defiency.

If I negleted to mention the inhabitants of the 72g here they a ~
30 cherry barbs (they keep multiplying every month), 3 white cloud
minnows, 2 assorted danios, 1 pearl gouramie, 1 clown pleco, ~4-5
SAES, ~6 ottos, and ~8 kuhli loaches (6 black variety, 2 normal).
Contrantry to what people keep recommended I do not believe it is the
loaches in this tank that are stopping the MTS from thriving - I think
it is the water hardness, even though it is no different from the 20
gallion. That is why I don't get it. So it could possibly be the
loaches, but I copiously feed the fish in that tank, I doubt the
loaches are hungry to go after such a tough shelled individual - they
certainly wouldn't be able to crack open an adult shell the only
possibility is that they might be able to swallow a (very small) baby
snail whole perhaps, stopping the MTS from reproducing? I find the MTS
shells on the surface of the sand, with a much whitened appearance
compared to how they were when they were first put in the tank (a dark
brown, almost black color), leading me to believe it is water hardness
issues.

All 3 tanks test the same for gH and kH, and that is why it is
boggling to me as to if the problem is water hardness why is the 20g
not effected and why are the snails doing well.

I have not tried Ca addition as I don't know of a controlled way to do
it that is also cheap. Is there a formula I can use to drop in 1
tablet of Ca & Mg (vitamin for human consumption) to figure out how
much the water hardness would raise. I have tablets that taken as 3
provide 1000mg Ca, 400mg Mg and 15 mg Zinc (If Zinc is a problem I can
obtain quick dissolving pills without Zinc - but I haven't really
heard anything about negative or positive relating to fish and 15mg
seems like a very small amount - but I may be wrong). It seems like a
likely idea to use them to raise water hardness, but I haven't heard
the idea proposed before. I dislike the idea of using seashells or
eggshells as it is hard to control the water hardness that way, and it
involves much more experimentation and constant testing to ensure that
you are not raising the hardness too much. If I could find an easy way
to drop a certain # of tablets into a tank (per 10 gallon) after each
water change, that would be immensily easier. Any chemists or
extremely smart people up for the challenge of telling me how to do
that? I'm certainly not intelligent enough and may just end up using 1
tablet after each water change and increasing it 1 tablet at a time
and contually testing the water - but I don't want to do that if
someone has a more accurate idea on the dosage I could use.

The other alternative is to dosing by human vitamins is to purchase
Seachem Equilibrium, but I have worked out the cost to water change
ratio and it is not economical for me to use that product, thus I'm
looking for other ideas and alternatives.
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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Allen Smith
 
Posts: n/a
Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

The only reason that I think that the tanks are Ca or Mg deficient was
that the plants were showing signs of that in the 72g, but I wasn't
sure which it was and was hard to diagnose. For a period of several
months I added 1 tablespoon of epson salts which is enough to raise
the Mg to a high enough level if that was the problem (for the
plants), but that did not solve it. That led me to believe that Ca was
the problem and I haven't addressed it yet, as I can't find an
economical and controlled way to dose it.

I will test every tank tonight or tomorrow for pH, gH, and kH and
report back to this thread.

Thanks for all the help.
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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Rich Conley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

My kribs eat em.....dont even touch the shell...just grab the snail while
its snailing around, and pull it out of the shell....Kinda neat to watch.
Rich




Allen Smith wrote:

The oscar would try to eat the snails when he was still a baby, but he
is so large now that he ignores them, and even when he did try to eat
them they would be immediately spitten out. The snails have very tough
shells and I don't think a cichlid could crack them, if puffers can
damage their teeth on MTS then I don't think any cichlid could consume
them not even say midas complex cichlid.


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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Rich Conley
 
Posts: n/a
Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

Maybe you have some sort of snail killing parasite in the 2 tanks.,...and
not in the third..?

Allen Smith wrote:

The only reason that I think that the tanks are Ca or Mg deficient was
that the plants were showing signs of that in the 72g, but I wasn't
sure which it was and was hard to diagnose. For a period of several
months I added 1 tablespoon of epson salts which is enough to raise
the Mg to a high enough level if that was the problem (for the
plants), but that did not solve it. That led me to believe that Ca was
the problem and I haven't addressed it yet, as I can't find an
economical and controlled way to dose it.

I will test every tank tonight or tomorrow for pH, gH, and kH and
report back to this thread.

Thanks for all the help.


  #10   Report Post  
Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Allen Smith
 
Posts: n/a
Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

As requested I have retested the pH, gH, and kH in every tank. The
test was performed twice to ensure the result was correct, and a
second person would examine the results to see they agree'd with my
color interpretation.

Here are the measurements and the recap of the inhabitants of each
tank:

72g pH 6.9 gH 8 kH 4
Inhabitants: 30 cherry barbs, 3 white clouds, 2 misc. danios, 6 kuhli
loaches, 1 pearl gourami, ~6 SAES, ~5 ottos, 1 clown pleco
Snails do not survive in this tank. As a sidenote, I should have said
I had one ramshorn snail that lived for about a month before dying,
twice as long as any MTS.
Tank is hi-tech setup with lots of light and heavily planted.
Water change frequency of 50% refill then change of 50% again 1x
weekly.

55g pH 6.6 gH 4 kH 1
Inhabitants: 1 6" oscar, 1 8" sailfin pleco
Snails usually disappear and aren't seen again, if I find them their
is just a shell left; not crushed or broken.
Water change frequency of 50% 2x weekly.

20g pH 6.8 gH 4 kH 1
Inhabitants: 1 large angelfish, 2 misc rescued tetras (flame and
rummynose I believe)
Snails thrive in this tank. Tank is lightly planted with crypts and
apon. crispus, no fertilization.
Water change frequency of 25% 1x monthly.

So... This tells me no reason why the snails are not surviving in the
other tanks. What exactly does everyone else think? Are the kuhli
loaches the real culprit, I cannot imagine it is them, but I cannot
narrow it down to anything, a gH of 8 seems high enough, does it not?
In the 55g, the oscar does not ever bother the snails, so why do they
die? The gH is 4 the same as the 20 gallon and the MTS thrive in the
20g.

I'm boggled and have been trying to solve this for over a year.

Some people may be shocked at such a low kH (myself included) but the
fish in those tanks have been living like that for 2-3 years very
happily. No sickness ever has happened, or wild pH change that I know
of. Consistent water changes deals with the low kH IMHO. But I may
start adding some sodium bicarbonate (to raise the kH to at least 3)
as a precation, if the rest of the group feels like it's a good idea.

In respond to parasites, all the fish have been quarantined properly
and treated with flagyl and fluke tabs whenever I get them. So unless
there is something that gets by that, then I don't see diseases or
parasites as a reason for them dying.

Help would be appreciated. Anyone smart or ingenious out there that
can solve this problem?

Very much appreciated,
Allen Smith


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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
kush
 
Posts: n/a
Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

It's the kuhli loaches. They wreak their havoc after the lights are out,
which is why you never see them at it.

I've also seen plecos eat snails. They probably start out tasting the
snails, as they do anything that doesn't move away from them, and then just
sort of get all carried away and envelope them and suck the essence from
them.

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

Allen Smith wrote in message
om...
As requested I have retested the pH, gH, and kH in every tank. The
test was performed twice to ensure the result was correct, and a
second person would examine the results to see they agree'd with my
color interpretation.

Here are the measurements and the recap of the inhabitants of each
tank:

72g pH 6.9 gH 8 kH 4
Inhabitants: 30 cherry barbs, 3 white clouds, 2 misc. danios, 6 kuhli
loaches, 1 pearl gourami, ~6 SAES, ~5 ottos, 1 clown pleco
Snails do not survive in this tank. As a sidenote, I should have said
I had one ramshorn snail that lived for about a month before dying,
twice as long as any MTS.
Tank is hi-tech setup with lots of light and heavily planted.
Water change frequency of 50% refill then change of 50% again 1x
weekly.

55g pH 6.6 gH 4 kH 1
Inhabitants: 1 6" oscar, 1 8" sailfin pleco
Snails usually disappear and aren't seen again, if I find them their
is just a shell left; not crushed or broken.
Water change frequency of 50% 2x weekly.

20g pH 6.8 gH 4 kH 1
Inhabitants: 1 large angelfish, 2 misc rescued tetras (flame and
rummynose I believe)
Snails thrive in this tank. Tank is lightly planted with crypts and
apon. crispus, no fertilization.
Water change frequency of 25% 1x monthly.

So... This tells me no reason why the snails are not surviving in the
other tanks. What exactly does everyone else think? Are the kuhli
loaches the real culprit, I cannot imagine it is them, but I cannot
narrow it down to anything, a gH of 8 seems high enough, does it not?
In the 55g, the oscar does not ever bother the snails, so why do they
die? The gH is 4 the same as the 20 gallon and the MTS thrive in the
20g.

I'm boggled and have been trying to solve this for over a year.

Some people may be shocked at such a low kH (myself included) but the
fish in those tanks have been living like that for 2-3 years very
happily. No sickness ever has happened, or wild pH change that I know
of. Consistent water changes deals with the low kH IMHO. But I may
start adding some sodium bicarbonate (to raise the kH to at least 3)
as a precation, if the rest of the group feels like it's a good idea.

In respond to parasites, all the fish have been quarantined properly
and treated with flagyl and fluke tabs whenever I get them. So unless
there is something that gets by that, then I don't see diseases or
parasites as a reason for them dying.

Help would be appreciated. Anyone smart or ingenious out there that
can solve this problem?

Very much appreciated,
Allen Smith



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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Cesium
 
Posts: n/a
Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

My kribs eat em.....dont even touch the shell...just grab the snail while
its snailing around, and pull it out of the shell....Kinda neat to watch.
Rich


People don't realize how vicious kribs can be. I've seen the two of them
hovering around a ghost shrimp caught out in the open after I turned the
light on in the morning. They would hover at a 45* angle on either side of
the shrimp, darting out to bite at it. They quickly had it dead and were
eating it after less than 30 seconds.
-Cesium



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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Jamie D
 
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Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?


"LeighMo" wrote in message
...
It's the kuhli loaches. They wreak their havoc after the lights are out,
which is why you never see them at it.


I suspect you are right. I found this on the Aquahobby Kuhli Loach page:

Kuhli Loaches are a resilient species that, while nocturnal, will do

well at
most any time of day in a high current, high activity tank. Never had a

problem
with them being jumpers, however they are fast swimmers and love swimming

up
against a downcurrent. They are also a great way to reduce the population

of
small snails that can quickly overrun your tank.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/


I have 3 kuhli loaches and more malaysian trumpet snails every day. I'd
guess about 300 at this point. I don't believe my kuhli's have discovered
the joy of escargot.

Jamie
~


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Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Velvet
 
Posts: n/a
Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

Wish my kuhlis would eat my pond snails. Do they only have a taste for
MTSs?

Velvet

"kush" wrote in message
...
It's the kuhli loaches. They wreak their havoc after the lights are out,
which is why you never see them at it.

I've also seen plecos eat snails. They probably start out tasting the
snails, as they do anything that doesn't move away from them, and then

just
sort of get all carried away and envelope them and suck the essence from
them.

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

Allen Smith wrote in message
om...
As requested I have retested the pH, gH, and kH in every tank. The
test was performed twice to ensure the result was correct, and a
second person would examine the results to see they agree'd with my
color interpretation.

Here are the measurements and the recap of the inhabitants of each
tank:

72g pH 6.9 gH 8 kH 4
Inhabitants: 30 cherry barbs, 3 white clouds, 2 misc. danios, 6 kuhli
loaches, 1 pearl gourami, ~6 SAES, ~5 ottos, 1 clown pleco
Snails do not survive in this tank. As a sidenote, I should have said
I had one ramshorn snail that lived for about a month before dying,
twice as long as any MTS.
Tank is hi-tech setup with lots of light and heavily planted.
Water change frequency of 50% refill then change of 50% again 1x
weekly.

55g pH 6.6 gH 4 kH 1
Inhabitants: 1 6" oscar, 1 8" sailfin pleco
Snails usually disappear and aren't seen again, if I find them their
is just a shell left; not crushed or broken.
Water change frequency of 50% 2x weekly.

20g pH 6.8 gH 4 kH 1
Inhabitants: 1 large angelfish, 2 misc rescued tetras (flame and
rummynose I believe)
Snails thrive in this tank. Tank is lightly planted with crypts and
apon. crispus, no fertilization.
Water change frequency of 25% 1x monthly.

So... This tells me no reason why the snails are not surviving in the
other tanks. What exactly does everyone else think? Are the kuhli
loaches the real culprit, I cannot imagine it is them, but I cannot
narrow it down to anything, a gH of 8 seems high enough, does it not?
In the 55g, the oscar does not ever bother the snails, so why do they
die? The gH is 4 the same as the 20 gallon and the MTS thrive in the
20g.

I'm boggled and have been trying to solve this for over a year.

Some people may be shocked at such a low kH (myself included) but the
fish in those tanks have been living like that for 2-3 years very
happily. No sickness ever has happened, or wild pH change that I know
of. Consistent water changes deals with the low kH IMHO. But I may
start adding some sodium bicarbonate (to raise the kH to at least 3)
as a precation, if the rest of the group feels like it's a good idea.

In respond to parasites, all the fish have been quarantined properly
and treated with flagyl and fluke tabs whenever I get them. So unless
there is something that gets by that, then I don't see diseases or
parasites as a reason for them dying.

Help would be appreciated. Anyone smart or ingenious out there that
can solve this problem?

Very much appreciated,
Allen Smith





  #15   Report Post  
Old 20-04-2003, 06:12 AM
Allen Smith
 
Posts: n/a
Default Malaysian Trumpet Snails - Keeping them alive?

You are the only one with a differing opinion on how kuhli loaches
are. May I ask your tank size, and perhaps that matter with the
survival rate if the MTS? 300 MTS is quite a bit, i think, I'd
estimate a good 100 in my 20 gallon tank.


I have 3 kuhli loaches and more malaysian trumpet snails every day. I'd
guess about 300 at this point. I don't believe my kuhli's have discovered
the joy of escargot.

Jamie
~



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