OK questions,
I just got back from my LFS which I find to be very knowledgeable. In
disagreement with some theories I have read here, the LFS said that CO2
would make an algae problem worse, not help it. And he supported his
thought. Now, I what like to know what is going on with CO2, algae and
photosynthesis. What kind of results should I expect?

"M Walczak" wrote
OK questions,
I just got back from my LFS which I find to be very knowledgeable. In
disagreement with some theories I have read here, the LFS said that CO2
would make an algae problem worse, not help it. And he supported his
thought. Now, I what like to know what is going on with CO2, algae and
photosynthesis. What kind of results should I expect?

That's not my experience, nor I would suggest
the experience of most others on this group.
The generally held opinion is that a bit of algae
in a planted tank is normal (desirous even), but
can be controlled by algae eating animals and
regular tank maintenance.
When algal growth is excessive and becomes a
problem, it's due to a imbalance in one or other of
light/CO2/nutrients. The trick is to get just enough
of everything to allow the plants to grow healthily,
thus leaving no excess for the algae.
My experience is that by adding CO2 and dosing
with PMDD, algae reduced to a manageable level
almost overnight.
Just adding CO2 to an already balanced low or
medium light tank may cause algae to prosper though.

--
Graham Ramsay
Blairgowrie (UK)
www.ibrox.freeserve.co.uk/aquarium.htm

Graham,
Thanks, Well my tank conditions are
pH 7.6
GH 14
KH 5

and 29g w/ 110w PC, 3.8 wpg

what is PMDD?
"Graham Ramsay" wrote in message
...
"M Walczak" wrote
OK questions,
I just got back from my LFS which I find to be very knowledgeable. In
disagreement with some theories I have read here, the LFS said that CO2
would make an algae problem worse, not help it. And he supported his
thought. Now, I what like to know what is going on with CO2, algae and
photosynthesis. What kind of results should I expect?

That's not my experience, nor I would suggest
the experience of most others on this group.
The generally held opinion is that a bit of algae
in a planted tank is normal (desirous even), but
can be controlled by algae eating animals and
regular tank maintenance.
When algal growth is excessive and becomes a
problem, it's due to a imbalance in one or other of
light/CO2/nutrients. The trick is to get just enough
of everything to allow the plants to grow healthily,
thus leaving no excess for the algae.
My experience is that by adding CO2 and dosing
with PMDD, algae reduced to a manageable level
almost overnight.
Just adding CO2 to an already balanced low or
medium light tank may cause algae to prosper though.

--
Graham Ramsay
Blairgowrie (UK)
www.ibrox.freeserve.co.uk/aquarium.htm

On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 00:42:02 GMT, "M Walczak"
wrote:

disagreement with some theories I have read here, the LFS said that CO2
would make an algae problem worse, not help it. And he supported his

Algae gets its carbon from the carbonate in the water. It isn't
dependant on CO2 like plants are. Very few plants have that ability.
So low CO2 situations favor the algae over the plants.

Increasing CO2 levels improves plant growth, and limits the algae
growth.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

"M Walczak" wrote

what is PMDD?

PMDD
Poor Man's Dupla/Dosing Drops

http://www.nfis.com/~hartland/aqua/pmdd.htm
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Fertilizer/pmdd-tim.html

--
Graham Ramsay
Blairgowrie (UK)
www.ibrox.freeserve.co.uk/aquarium.htm

On Sun, 24 Nov 2002 10:30:42 -0000, "Graham Ramsay"
wrote:
what is PMDD?

PMDD
Poor Man's Dupla/Dosing Drops

An amusing anecdote from the AGA conference:

I discussed dosing trace nutrients using an "all in one" fertilizer
like TMG. Later, while talking to Claus from Tropica, we were
discussing deficiencies of other micro-nutrients, and I told Claus
"that is why I prefer a complete balanced trace fertilizer like TMG,
since if the dosage provides enough iron, then itprovides enough of
all the other traces". The next day, Claus asked me "so, what do you
recommend for trace elements". I told him TMG, and he was about to
ask something, when suddenly his expression changed, and he said "I
just figured out that TMG is Tropica Master Grow"



Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

I just got back from my LFS which I find to be very knowledgeable. In
disagreement with some theories I have read here, the LFS said that CO2
would make an algae problem worse, not help it. And he supported his
thought.

How? He may be well versed in some areas, but he's not here.

Now, I what like to know what is going on with CO2, algae and
photosynthesis. What kind of results should I expect?

Well being someone is well versed in many things algal, all algae can
and do use HCO3, or bicarbonate for their source of Carbon. A small
number of plants can do this as well, Hydrillia, Egeria, Potamogeton,
Vals but they grow much better with CO2 added. All plants do. Most
algae do not. A few such as Green water, A couple of species of
Cladophora, Chara do better with CO2. Most do not though.
What happens when CO2 is added to 15+ppm they start photorespiration.
They have no protection from photorespiration radicals (Oxygen
radicals that are extremely destructive).

Plants and Chara possess perixsomes, these remove these radicals and
improves efficiency. Other algae do not have these oraganelles.

Plants have evolved using CO2 and algae have stuck with HCO3. HCO3 is
your KH.

Plants use and need far more Carbon than algae. Even the worst algae
bloom produces very little biomass vs a well growing plant tank.

Since most plants can only use CO2 vs HCO3, adding it allows the
plants to grow. Plants are roughly 40% carbon. Limiting this nutrient
will slow plant growth down but the algae have no problem at all
growing.

So you shopuld except things like great plant growth, "pearling",
reduced algae issues etc if you use it properly and raise the
dissolved CO2 levels to 20-30ppm.

One thing that many do not realize, adding CO2 gas from gas tanks, DIY
yeast ect, DOES NOT DISPLACE Oxygen. Many think they are dependant on
each other. In planted tanks, O2 is above 100% most of the time, so is
the CO2(all of the time). Fish/bacteria like the O2. Too much CO2 can
cause some problems but 30ppm to 20ppm works very well and has no
effect on fish, inverts, bacteria etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

In article ,
) wrote:
snip

One thing that many do not realize, adding CO2 gas from gas tanks, DIY
yeast ect, DOES NOT DISPLACE Oxygen. Many think they are dependant on
each other. In planted tanks, O2 is above 100% most of the time, so is
the CO2(all of the time). Fish/bacteria like the O2. Too much CO2 can
cause some problems but 30ppm to 20ppm works very well and has no
effect on fish, inverts, bacteria etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Tom,

Sorry to bud in on this thread but you have me thinking about something.
I have a DIY CO2 setup on my heavily planted 58 gallon tank and I run an
airstone on a timer opposite my lights for aeration help. Is this
helpful on a DIY CO2 setup on a tank as large as mine? Will my fish
suffer if I scrap the 'aeration help after dark' idea? Thanks for any
advice,

Scott

wrote
One thing that many do not realize, adding CO2 gas from gas tanks, DIY
yeast ect, DOES NOT DISPLACE Oxygen. Many think they are dependant on
each other. In planted tanks, O2 is above 100% most of the time, so is
the CO2(all of the time). Fish/bacteria like the O2. Too much CO2 can
cause some problems but 30ppm to 20ppm...

Comment on temperature? Cooler water is able to hold/retain more dissolved
gases than warmer water. Does anyone have a chart?

kush

In article ,
) wrote:

Tom,

Sorry to bud in on this thread but you have me thinking about something.

I thought I smelled smoke:-)
No wait! That's my dinner!

I have a DIY CO2 setup on my heavily planted 58 gallon tank and I run an
airstone on a timer opposite my lights for aeration help. Is this
helpful on a DIY CO2 setup on a tank as large as mine? Will my fish
suffer if I scrap the 'aeration help after dark' idea? Thanks for any
advice,

Scott

Folks need to rely on air stones at night etc only if their fish loads
are 1#, too high, #2, poor plant growth and O2 production from the
plants(a good reason to grow them well!!), #3 not enough currect to
mix the water, #4 too much organic waste(over feed too much, just
pulled up a bunch of dirt and mulm from the gravel and did not do a
water cahnge to remove all etc.

It's O2 that's the issue. You can increase the surface movements to
the point where the water takes in enough O2 but the tank can still
have enough CO2 during the lighting cycle. So you can increase O2
levels by adding some more CO2 to account for the surface losses. But
the gain in O2 maybe worth it if the plants are not growing or one of
the above 4 items(or possibly more) is present.
Healthy plants= healthy fish. Grow the plants and it should not be
difficult.
I have never found a need for adding air stones at night. I've done
it... but never needed to.
Regards,
Tom Barr

Thanks for the help Tom,

I left the air pump off last night just to observe the fish. They didn't
look any different early in the morning than they did in the middle of
the day when the plants are at 'full pearl'. Happy as ever without the
pump and without any gasping at the top. My plants look pretty healthy,
I don't feed heavily and my fish load is low/medium so I guess I don't
need the pump. It was one of those things I read about earlier that I
thought would be a good precaution to have. Looks like I'll stuff it in
the back of the tank stand with all the other stuff I bought, thought
I'd need and never used. Thanks again and I hope dinner was good. :^)

Scott

Comment on temperature? Cooler water is able to hold/retain more dissolved
gases than warmer water. Does anyone have a chart?

kush

True, I don't use heaters except in a Discus. Slows plant growth down also.
Regards,
Tom Barr

" wrote:

I don't use heaters except in a Discus. Slows plant growth down also.
Regards,
Tom Barr

That comment probably needs qualification. I'm in California, and even here an
unheated tank runs aroung 66-68F during the winter, possibly colder at night if
its a small tank. An awful lot of fish are going to have trouble below 70F.

During the summer, of course, the heaters seldom turn on.

In article ,
Dave Millman wrote:

" wrote:

I don't use heaters except in a Discus. Slows plant growth down also.
Regards,
Tom Barr

That comment probably needs qualification. I'm in California, and even here
an
unheated tank runs aroung 66-68F during the winter, possibly colder at night
if
its a small tank. An awful lot of fish are going to have trouble below 70F.

During the summer, of course, the heaters seldom turn on.


Florida here. No heaters either. The tanks never get below 75F.

Scott

That comment probably needs qualification. I'm in California, and even here
an
unheated tank runs aroung 66-68F during the winter, possibly colder at night
if
its a small tank. An awful lot of fish are going to have trouble below 70F.


Hehe, your comment needs qualification too
Depends on where in CA you live, I lived in Southern CA for a couple
of years. Never used a heater, had Rummy noses, Cardinals etc. Tanks
stayed about 75F minimum.
Never heated the place. In the Bay area I heated some tanksm, like the
Discus tanks but nothing else. Fish where fine. 72F or so is okay,
below that., heater time for many fish. If you catch your own locally,
then colder is often better.

I collect my fish from the wild these days, no need to change what
they are use to.

But the high temps + low O2 levels can complicate things, 2ppm of O2
is a fair amount of difference and within these temp ranges this can
occur or more.
My lights on some of my tanks cook things pretty good.

Tank size also plays a big role here also. A 100 gallon tank does not
move as fast as a 10 gallon temp wise.


During the summer, of course, the heaters seldom turn on.


Florida here. No heaters either. The tanks never get below 75F.

Scott