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#31
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75 or 90 for planted?
Possibly a bigger issue with the Dave Gomberg high pressure system, if
it's the same as when I bought mine several years ago, is that the tiny little Eheim diffusor isn't very effective in large tanks. It's fine in my 75 gallon. I believe Chuck uses a wet-dry filter, which tends to lose a lot of CO2. The Eheim will probably be fine with any "normal" filter. I am considering switching to some kind of reactor, or injecting directly into the filter intake, in hopes of lowering the maintenance required. You do have to rinse the Eheim diffusor's ceramic disk every week or two, to keep the CO2 bubble size small. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
#32
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75 or 90 for planted?
I purchased one of these systems in July (inc. needle valve), and have
been more than pleased with it on my 29 gallon tank. I was willing to spend a few extra bucks for someone else to figure out all of the various fitting sizes etc. and save a day of driving from welding shop to welding shop. Yes, that's how it was for me, too. I did a lot of research, and found several Web pages describing how to do it, but I still wasn't sure what kind of regulator to get, what kind of fittings were needed, etc. The people who sell CO2 refills have no clue about using CO2 for fishtanks, so they weren't much help. I probably wouldn't be using compressed CO2 today, if Dave didn't offer complete kits meant for planted tanks. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
#33
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75 or 90 for planted?
How much should I expect to spend on "real" CO2 equipment for my 180 gallon?
See this page: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Hills/2637/ With a lot of scrounging and some DIY, he made a complete compressed CO2 system for $100. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
#34
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75 or 90 for planted?
i've found that the little rena 2" diffusers do a good job of maintaining a
small bubble size over an extended period. i've tried several other "airstones" as well as limewood diffusers and they all seem to generate large bubbles from the start or soon thereafter. when i say small i mean bubbles small enough that 70% (approximately) disappear within 8" of water column. with a 75G i don't think anything would make it to the top if the diffuser was at the bottom. if you use the rena make sure to trim the lip of the rubber at the top otherwise it will collect the fine bubbles into larger ones. jtm -- Remove NOSPAM for email replies "LeighMo" wrote in message ... Possibly a bigger issue with the Dave Gomberg high pressure system, if it's the same as when I bought mine several years ago, is that the tiny little Eheim diffusor isn't very effective in large tanks. It's fine in my 75 gallon. I believe Chuck uses a wet-dry filter, which tends to lose a lot of CO2. The Eheim will probably be fine with any "normal" filter. I am considering switching to some kind of reactor, or injecting directly into the filter intake, in hopes of lowering the maintenance required. You do have to rinse the Eheim diffusor's ceramic disk every week or two, to keep the CO2 bubble size small. Leigh http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/ |
#36
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75 or 90 for planted?
On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 17:31:51 -0800, "Dustin"
wrote: By a tank dump then, you are talking about alot of co2 *gas form* comming out all at once and sufficating the fish? Yes. It doesn't actually sufficate the fish, but the end result can be the same... I thought you meant liquid comming through and contaminating the water. I No. Any liquid CO2 that did come out would quickly expand into gas, so it wouldn't really "contaminate" the water. But liquid CO2 can't come out of the system unless the tank was a "syphon" tank with a tube specifically built into the tank to draw up liquid, or maybe if you inverted the CO2 tank. The liquid CO2 would probably be stopped by the regulator anyway. And the regulator might be damaged by the liquid CO2. (it freezes the seals, etc) Which needle valve do you prefer, or is there such a thing? I just bought one sold for planted tank use. I don't know anything special about them. Buy one from Dave Gomberg, or Aquabotanic, M3. You might be able to find one somewhere else for a few bucks cheaper, but I wouldn't know what specs to look for. Chuck Gadd http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua |
#37
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75 or 90 for planted?
Thanks Chuck!
I got a needle Valve and Check Valve from Robert at Aquabotanic. He was a great help and friendly too I called the local welding supply and they said they had fitting for the regulator, so I guess im gonna be set haha. Thanks Everyone! "Chuck Gadd" wrote in message ... On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 17:31:51 -0800, "Dustin" wrote: By a tank dump then, you are talking about alot of co2 *gas form* comming out all at once and sufficating the fish? Yes. It doesn't actually sufficate the fish, but the end result can be the same... I thought you meant liquid comming through and contaminating the water. I No. Any liquid CO2 that did come out would quickly expand into gas, so it wouldn't really "contaminate" the water. But liquid CO2 can't come out of the system unless the tank was a "syphon" tank with a tube specifically built into the tank to draw up liquid, or maybe if you inverted the CO2 tank. The liquid CO2 would probably be stopped by the regulator anyway. And the regulator might be damaged by the liquid CO2. (it freezes the seals, etc) Which needle valve do you prefer, or is there such a thing? I just bought one sold for planted tank use. I don't know anything special about them. Buy one from Dave Gomberg, or Aquabotanic, M3. You might be able to find one somewhere else for a few bucks cheaper, but I wouldn't know what specs to look for. Chuck Gadd http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua |
#38
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75 or 90 for planted?
On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:37:23 -0800, "Dustin"
wrote: I got a needle Valve and Check Valve from Robert at Aquabotanic. He was a great help and friendly too Definitely a class act. I called the local welding supply and they said they had fitting for the regulator, so I guess im gonna be set haha. Sounds great. There's always someone helpful around here if you hit any questions. One good suggestion I heard regarding setting up a new CO2 system: When you first set it up, be sure you will be available to monitor things for the first 24 hours. Start out with a low bubble rate, don't try to drop the pH too far too fast. Adjust it a little at a time, until you get the pH where you want it. Chuck Gadd http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua |
#39
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75 or 90 for planted?
Ok Great, Ill keep that in mind
As Always, Thanks for the help! Dustin "Chuck Gadd" wrote in message ... On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 20:37:23 -0800, "Dustin" wrote: I got a needle Valve and Check Valve from Robert at Aquabotanic. He was a great help and friendly too Definitely a class act. I called the local welding supply and they said they had fitting for the regulator, so I guess im gonna be set haha. Sounds great. There's always someone helpful around here if you hit any questions. One good suggestion I heard regarding setting up a new CO2 system: When you first set it up, be sure you will be available to monitor things for the first 24 hours. Start out with a low bubble rate, don't try to drop the pH too far too fast. Adjust it a little at a time, until you get the pH where you want it. Chuck Gadd http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua |
#41
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75 or 90 for planted?
Hi Dustin, A lot of this reiterates what Chuck states... You're actually talking about 2 different things here. What happens in a tank dump is that the regulator tries to equalize the pressure on both sides of itself, thereby continuously adding co2 to the aquarium at a rate faster than it can be used. The easiest way to avoid this is to use a needle valve between the regulator and tank. I got the one from Dave Gomberg (wcf.com) and I'm very pleased with it. Now with a tank dump here's what happens. Co2 is added to the tank so fast that most of it escapes to the atmosphere. With a tight fitting aquarium cover the co2 will blanket the waters surface, and prohibit an oxygen exchange. This is what kills the fish. There is no oxygen available at the waters surface since it's all co2. I don't know for certain if this phenomena will happen with a tank that doesn't have a cover on it. The easiest way to avoid a tank dump is to use a needle valve and watch the regulator pressure on the tank side (high gauge) of the regulator. As long as there is co2 liquid in the pressurized tank your pressure will remain constant at somewhere near 800 psi. When all of the liquid is depleted the pressure will start to drop on the high side of the regulator. It's going to take some time for it to get from 800 psi or so to 200-500 psi, where you're getting near the "failure" point of the regulator. I've also read that if this "tank dump" happens damage to the regulator is likely. IME with the "dose rate" I'm using it takes about 2 weeks for the tank to get to 500 psi. At that point I disconnect the regulator and the tank and I take a short ride to the welding shop. The only way to get liquid from the pressurized tank to your aquarium is if the pressurized tank has liquid in it and it falls over. The way I prohibit this is to tie it to the center brace in the tank stand. I think the reference you're speaking of with liquid getting into the aquarium has to do with the sugar/yeast method of generating carbon dioxide. I'm completely green on that subject, and I'll leave that to someone that knows what they're talking about. On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 17:31:51 -0800, "Dustin" wrote: Alright, By a tank dump then, you are talking about alot of co2 *gas form* comming out all at once and sufficating the fish? I thought you meant liquid comming through and contaminating the water. I called the welding shop, where I bought the co2 tank, and they said the liquid could only come out if there was a tub inside the tank, which is normally only used for large tanks *50gal+* or Paint Ball Tanks. Which needle valve do you prefer, or is there such a thing? Thanks! Dustin "Chuck Gadd" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 2 Jan 2003 02:58:26 -0800, "Dustin" wrote: THanks for the input Cannibul, that I did buy that system. Wish I hadnt know, maybe I can get a refund.... I dont like the idea of loosing all the fish...... was it because he didnt have a needle valve, or because the product is junk? The product is perfectly fine. The problem is that the system doesn't use a needle valve. But even without a needle valve, the system is SAFE, and works fine. The issue is what is known as an "end of tank dump". Co2 regulators are intended to operate with a tank pressure of 800-2000 psi (CO2 pressure will never get that high, it's usually around 800-1000psi). On the regulator, the high pressure gauge is marked in red from 0-600psi. This is because, when the CO2 runs out, the tank pressure drops down. The regulator is unable to properly regulate when the tank pressure is very low. In theory, anything below 600psi is a problem. In practice, I've run my regulator (from Dave Gomberg) down to 300-400psi with no "dump". But in any case, once the pressure drops below the regulators minimum, the regulator looses the ability to regulate the output properly, and the output pressure will rise. Since with the "high pressure system" the pressure directly controls the bubble rate, this rising output pressure results in a CO2 overdose. At the extreme end, the regulator can completely loose control when the tank pressure drops very far. At that point, it would vent all the remaining CO2 in a sudden burst. For all of these cases, simply adding a needle valve will provide a safety net. But, if you keep an eye on the tank pressure, it's easy to notice BEFORE the tank pressure drops very far. Unlike watching your car's gas gauge, the CO2 pressure will remain constant (around 800-1000psi depending on the temp) until the tank is 99% empty. When the CO2 tank is filled, the CO2 is under pressure, and is in a liquid form. As long as ANY liquid CO2 remains in the tank, the pressure stays at that 800-1000psi. Once all the liquid is gone, the pressure will start to drop. On my tank, with a fairly high CO2 flow rate, I would get about a week from the time the pressure first started to drop, till it reached the 600psi mark. So even without a needle-valve, if you glance at the CO2 pressure once every few days, you will see it in time to prevent a problem. On my system, with a needle-valve, I intentionally let the pressure drop all the way down. I run the regulator pressure at about 6psi normally, and then control the bubble rate with the needle-valve. I usually have a bubble rate around 2-3 bubble per second. As the tank pressure dropped below 300psi, the output pressure rose up slowly to about 15-20psi. I never saw a true "end of tank dump" with a big spike in output pressure. And the bubble rate (because of the needle valve) didn't increase much, less than 1 extra bubble per second. Possibly a bigger issue with the Dave Gomberg high pressure system, if it's the same as when I bought mine several years ago, is that the tiny little Eheim diffusor isn't very effective in large tanks. In my 75g, I was unable to get acceptable CO2 levels using it. I ditched the eheim diffusor, added a needle-valve, and built my DIY reactor, and I've been very happy ever since. Chuck Gadd http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua |
#42
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75 or 90 for planted?
On Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:49:08 -0600, Joe Ferenchik
wrote: exchange. This is what kills the fish. There is no oxygen available at the waters surface since it's all co2. I don't know for certain if this phenomena will happen with a tank that doesn't have a cover on I've seen a CO2 overdose (not caused by end-of-tank dump, but rather due to a faulty pH probe/controller), which killed a bunch of fish in an open-top tank. The deaths were caused not by lack of O2, but rather by the massive amount of CO2. ride to the welding shop. The only way to get liquid from the pressurized tank to your aquarium is if the pressurized tank has liquid in it and it falls over. Even then you probably wouldn't get liquid CO2 out. It would be stopped by the regulator, but it might damage the regulator. Chuck Gadd http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua |
#43
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75 or 90 for planted?
Chuck,
Is your CO2 flowing at the same rate all the time? I seem to recall sometime ago, you mentioned that you leave your CO2 going even at night. If this is the case, how much PH fluctuation do you normally see during any given 24 hour period? I saw an article on your site regarding constructing a wet/dry filter. I assume you use a wet/dry filter, right? Does this sort of filtration allow you to more easily stabilize input and outgo of CO2 in the water? I wonder if this makes CO2 injection without a controller easier.. what is your feeling on this? If you were to use a different filter, like a canister filter that is enclosed and therefore not amenable to CO2 dissipation, do you think it would be more difficult to regulate CO2 (without a controller)? Just curious. I personally would have a much harder time maintaining conditions in my tank without a controller, since I am not near my tank much during the week. A controller has worked well for me for the past couple of years. -Bruce Geist "Chuck Gadd" wrote in message ... On Sun, 05 Jan 2003 12:49:08 -0600, Joe Ferenchik wrote: exchange. This is what kills the fish. There is no oxygen available at the waters surface since it's all co2. I don't know for certain if this phenomena will happen with a tank that doesn't have a cover on I've seen a CO2 overdose (not caused by end-of-tank dump, but rather due to a faulty pH probe/controller), which killed a bunch of fish in an open-top tank. The deaths were caused not by lack of O2, but rather by the massive amount of CO2. ride to the welding shop. The only way to get liquid from the pressurized tank to your aquarium is if the pressurized tank has liquid in it and it falls over. Even then you probably wouldn't get liquid CO2 out. It would be stopped by the regulator, but it might damage the regulator. Chuck Gadd http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua |
#44
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75 or 90 for planted?
On Wed, 8 Jan 2003 19:27:01 -0500, "Bruce Geist"
wrote: Is your CO2 flowing at the same rate all the time? yes sometime ago, you mentioned that you leave your CO2 going even at night. If this is the case, how much PH fluctuation do you normally see during any given 24 hour period? 6.8 during the day, 6.6 in the AM before the lights come on.. I saw an article on your site regarding constructing a wet/dry filter. I assume you use a wet/dry filter, right? Does this sort of filtration allow you to more easily stabilize input and outgo of CO2 in the water? I wonder if this makes CO2 injection without a controller easier.. what is your Possibly. In a tank with the absolute minimum CO2 loss, it's reasonable to expect slightly higher CO2 accumulation during the night. I don't know that it's really necessary to maintain extremely stable CO2 levels. In nature, it's common for nighttime CO2 levels to be higher than daytime levels. This is a natural swing. In fact, this natural CO2 swing might even be beneficial to plant growth. Here's a study that found improved growth when CO2 levels were allowed to drift higher at night: http://www.co2science.org/journal/2002/v5n4b1.htm Chuck Gadd http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua |
#45
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75 or 90 for planted?
6.8 during the day, 6.6 in the AM before the lights come on..
My PH fluctuates from 6.65 to 6.75 with the controler-- which is really not that much less variance than what you have been able to achieve without a controler. Are you able to set your flow rate and let it go for a while without fear, or do your really need to check it often during a day? How long does it take you to get re-set after swapping out your CO2 cylinder? Possibly. In a tank with the absolute minimum CO2 loss, it's reasonable to expect slightly higher CO2 accumulation during the night. I don't know that it's really necessary to maintain extremely stable CO2 levels. In nature, it's common for nighttime CO2 levels to be higher than daytime levels. This is a natural swing. In fact, this natural CO2 swing might even be beneficial to plant growth. Here's a study that found improved growth when CO2 levels were allowed to drift higher at night: http://www.co2science.org/journal/2002/v5n4b1.htm Interesting article. Thanks. (I am amazed there is journal called "CO2 Science", glad to know about it.) A .2 variation is nothing! I don't know that I ever succeeded in getting that little bit of a swing without a controller. I think the best I ever did was about .5 swing, which I thought might start killing fish (especially since that is the BEST I ever did). Well if I ever re-do my CO2 system, I may try getting a wet/dry filter and (probably more importantly) a better CO2 regulator/needle valve. I have trouble at times getting a consistent flow through my regulator/needle valve combination, particularly after I change the CO2 tank -Bruce Geist |
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