Another thing about this new light (Coral Life 4 x 65), it only casts
a lot of light to the back of the tank while the front gets less than
it used to. I would say the light from this fixture is much more
"focused" than regular tubes. Would you agree with this? Leigh,
looking at your web site and reading you tank specs, it sounds like
you have 2 CF fixtures with 2 bulbs each. Is that correct. Your tank
looks so bright! Mine is bright, just not like yours is bright. If I
take this CF light back and get two fixtures with 2 tubes each, I
believe that would distribute the light better. What do you think?
Also, how many of you use the "standard" glass tops like from
All-Glass?

Thanks for reading all the ranting, I just want to get my lighting
like it should/needs to be.

Thanks,
Jesse


tose (LeighMo) wrote in message ...
Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too
dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2.

My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and
lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to
grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only
130w.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

I have bad luck with vals, so I'm not going to try to pass myself off as an
authority. I always thought it was the light... hmmf. Certainly, 130 watts
over a 75 gallon is plenty for the sags, although they will be taller and
not grow as densely as they would with more light.

kush

LeighMo wrote in message
...
Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too
dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2.

My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and
lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's
trying to
grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with
only
130w.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Thanks for all the advice and words of wisdom guys. I will take your
advice and use it. Kush, what is the best way for me to "inject" the
DIY CO2 bottles into my water? Should I use a simple airstone or run
a airtube into my filter intake or what?...or maybe a hard tube
suctioned to the inside glass that bubbles up??? What have you done
that works good? Thanks.

"kush" wrote in message ...
SlimFlem wrote ...

The statement about the plants is that the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to
synthisize elements/minerals/etc.
better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure.

Mmm, there is something about trace elements precipitating out, which I
think is related to total hardness, which is related to pH, but I'm not
clear on the chemistry myself. Any water chemistry geeks tuned into this
thread?

... using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do
contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad
thing?

This is a really, really bad thing for two reasons. First, you are
providing more phosphate than your plants can readily use, thereby
encouraging the proliferation of algae. Second, these products do not
persist in the aquarium - because your plants and algae are using them, and
you're dumping them when you perform water changes - which means you will be
perpetually adjusting your water chemistry and struggling to achieve and
maintain a desirable equilibrium.

... It sounds like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea
breakout from these new lights.

Yes, we are; from the lights, the phosphates, and the lack of sufficient CO2
(see below).

The LFS guys did say initally there might be a slight increase in water
algea, but it would go away after a few days since the plants will be
robbing it of nutrients.

This COULD be true, provided the plants have everything they need to sustain
vigorous growth in the correct balance. Biologic growth is limited by
whatever factor is in least supply. If you are providing ample light for
photosynthesis and abundant nutrients but the plants lack sufficient CO2,
they will not repeat not grow. At the light levels you are proposing (even
leaving aside the issue of the phosphates), supplementing with CO2 is NOT
optional. With 4.5 watts per gallon and a nutrient-rich water stream, I
would start with a minimum of three soda bottles of DIY CO2. Maybe more.

Alternatively, I would get a signed and witnessed agreement from your LFS to
clean your tank out for you after two months. Tee hee.

Regarding the variable lighting schedule, I would recommend against that,
too. The goal you are shooting for is to achieve a stable, desirable
environment in your tank. The more factors you have to adjust, the harder
that will be. I'd recommend a constant equatorial eleven hour day (where
the first and last half hour of each day, the sun strikes the water at such
an extreme angle that very little light penetrates more than a few inches
into the water).

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

I have three bottles on my 75 gallon.

One bottle has airline tubing leading from the soda bottle to just inside
the filter intake. Using this method, 100% of the CO2 is absorbed
(resorbed?) by the time it comes out the filter outflow. I have had two
bottles hooked up to my canister filter before and had just a few bubbles
come all the way through - usually they'll build up inside and come out in a
sudden rush just when you least expect it. At any rate, I just use one
bottle there now. Depending on your filter model you might get a little
rattling noise, too.

The other two bottles I have leading into the bottom of UGF risers. The
bubbles rise up the tubes and get smashed by the impeller on powerheads
which results in very good, although not quite perfect, absorption.

I've never tried the airstone method myself. I understand you need to keep
an eye on the stone to see if it's getting gunked up. Maybe someone who
knows better can comment?

Note: before you do anything with the pH, wait a couple days after you set
up your CO2 and test again. The CO2 will lower your pH.

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

SlimFlem wrote in message
om...
Thanks for all the advice and words of wisdom guys. I will take your
advice and use it. Kush, what is the best way for me to "inject" the
DIY CO2 bottles into my water? Should I use a simple airstone or run
a airtube into my filter intake or what?...or maybe a hard tube
suctioned to the inside glass that bubbles up??? What have you done
that works good? Thanks.

"kush" wrote in message
...
SlimFlem wrote ...

The statement about the plants is that the 6.5 PH will allow the plants
to
synthisize elements/minerals/etc.
better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure.

Mmm, there is something about trace elements precipitating out, which I
think is related to total hardness, which is related to pH, but I'm not
clear on the chemistry myself. Any water chemistry geeks tuned into
this
thread?

... using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do
contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad
thing?

This is a really, really bad thing for two reasons. First, you are
providing more phosphate than your plants can readily use, thereby
encouraging the proliferation of algae. Second, these products do not
persist in the aquarium - because your plants and algae are using them,
and
you're dumping them when you perform water changes - which means you
will be
perpetually adjusting your water chemistry and struggling to achieve and
maintain a desirable equilibrium.

... It sounds like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea
breakout from these new lights.

Yes, we are; from the lights, the phosphates, and the lack of sufficient
CO2
(see below).

The LFS guys did say initally there might be a slight increase in water
algea, but it would go away after a few days since the plants will be
robbing it of nutrients.

This COULD be true, provided the plants have everything they need to
sustain
vigorous growth in the correct balance. Biologic growth is limited by
whatever factor is in least supply. If you are providing ample light
for
photosynthesis and abundant nutrients but the plants lack sufficient
CO2,
they will not repeat not grow. At the light levels you are proposing
(even
leaving aside the issue of the phosphates), supplementing with CO2 is
NOT
optional. With 4.5 watts per gallon and a nutrient-rich water stream, I
would start with a minimum of three soda bottles of DIY CO2. Maybe more.

Alternatively, I would get a signed and witnessed agreement from your
LFS to
clean your tank out for you after two months. Tee hee.

Regarding the variable lighting schedule, I would recommend against
that,
too. The goal you are shooting for is to achieve a stable, desirable
environment in your tank. The more factors you have to adjust, the
harder
that will be. I'd recommend a constant equatorial eleven hour day
(where
the first and last half hour of each day, the sun strikes the water at
such
an extreme angle that very little light penetrates more than a few
inches
into the water).

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

I have bad luck with vals, so I'm not going to try to pass myself off as an
authority. I always thought it was the light... hmmf. Certainly, 130 watts
over a 75 gallon is plenty for the sags, although they will be taller and
not grow as densely as they would with more light.

With my Custom Sealife 2x65W light strip, over a 75 gallon tank, I had Vals --
jungle, corkscrew, marble, Italian, crystal -- coming out of my ears. And the
dwarf Sag was as short and bushy as I've ever seen it. Neither of those plants
improved when I added more light. Didn't hurt 'em, but it didn't help, either.

The CS light strip has a very good reflector, though; perhaps that was the
difference?

Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

The LFS (The Fish Store & More in Atlanta) said with this new light, I
should start by having only 8 hours of light per day and gradually
increasing it to no more than 12.

I see no point in doing this. Your lights are bright, but not *that* bright.

Again, the LFS said CO2 injection is not *really* required and all it
is said to be just because of high lighting levels.

CO2 *is* required with high light levels. Otherwise, you will constantly be
battling algae, and there will be undesirable daily pH swings. See my posts in
the "75 or 90 for planted?" thread.

Several of the
guys there said they have never used CO2 with high light levels and
have always had great results.

I'd be curious to see what they consider high light. In general, CO2 is not
necessary with less than 3 wpg (though it can help). Over 3 wpg, though, and
CO2 is required, not optional.

Concerning the PH, again the LFS said the Angels and Loaches would
enjoy the 6.5 more than 7.5.

I would not adjust the pH just for plants or fish. The vast majority of them
will be fine with any reasonable pH. As long as you're not trying to breed
cardinal tetras or something, leave the pH alone.

The way I
am doing this is by using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus
Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad
thing?

It will be, without CO2. If you want to lower your pH, adding CO2 is a much
better, and easier, way.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

I have a 110 gallon tank with a 110 Watt compact fluorescent. I don't have
CO2, but I do use Fluorish Excel when I remember...
Most of my plants are doing great, including several so-called high-light
plants like swords and crypts. I have to prune weekly my cabomba,
hygrophilia,
and myriophyllum.
It's working for me.

You have 1 wpg. He's talking about a tank that will have almost 4 wpg. You
don't need CO2. He does!

And there is something to be said for tanks with moderate light levels.
Especially for beginners. I did it that way, and I'm glad I did. Gave me a
chance to learn to walk before trying to run.






Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Another thing about this new light (Coral Life 4 x 65), it only casts
a lot of light to the back of the tank while the front gets less than
it used to.

Yes, that's the problem with power compact flourescents -- the "compact" part.
g That's why I ended up getting another light strip. It wasn't that my tank
didn't have enough light; it was. Everything was growing great, with just one
2x65w strip. But with only one PCF light strip, I had to constantly move the
strip around, or the plants would lean noticeably toward the light. I got the
second light strip so I didn't have to worry about that any more. And the
plants promptly started growing so fast that my Carbo-Plus couldn't keep up,
and I had to get compressed CO2.

I would say the light from this fixture is much more
"focused" than regular tubes. Would you agree with this?

Definitely. If I had to do it over again, I think I'd just get a 4' shop light
or two. It would have been a heck of a lot cheaper. And you'd have a lot more
control over the lighting.

Leigh,
looking at your web site and reading you tank specs, it sounds like
you have 2 CF fixtures with 2 bulbs each. Is that correct.

Yes. In back is a Custom Sealife 2x65w strip, and in front is an All-Glass
2x55w.

Your tank
looks so bright! Mine is bright, just not like yours is bright.

That's odd. I would expect your light fixture to be extremely bright,
especially when it's new.

Maybe the Coralife has a bad reflector...but it surely can't be worse than the
All-Glass one. As others have noted, All-Glass' reflectors are terrible.

It's probably just that I have one of my light strips flush with the front of
the tank, so it's very bright in front. (The low plants -- glosso, lilaeopsis,
etc., are there, so I wanted light right over them.)

If I
take this CF light back and get two fixtures with 2 tubes each, I
believe that would distribute the light better. What do you think?

It probably would. OTOH, it does mean I have to pick up the front light strip
and put it on top of the rear one every time I open the tank to feed the fish.

FWIW, the Custom Sealife PCF light strips have much better reflectors than the
All-Glass. If you get Custom Sealife, get the Britelite, not the Smartlite.

But AH Supply or a big ol' shop light from Home Depot would be a lot cheaper.

Also, how many of you use the "standard" glass tops like from
All-Glass?

That's what I use. It's inexpensive, easy, and sturdy. The cat can jump on
the top the tank without any fear he'll fall in. You just have to remember to
wipe the glass every once in awhile, to keep dust, hard water deposits, etc.,
from blocking the light. (I use a solution of vinegar and water.)

BTW...with this much light in your tank, you need more than just Sag and Val in
your tank. You must have enough fast-growing plants to out-compete the algae.
You should plant 80% of the tank or more, and, at least at first, most of the
plants should be fast-growing stem plants. Hygrophila, Cabomba, Limnophila,
Rotala, etc.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Thanks for all the words of advice! I do have more plants than just Val and
Sag, I just failed to mention them. Here is what I have:

A handful of Val and a handful of Sag
3 Amazon Swords (getting large, but not huge yet)
1 Melon Sword that has not grown much since I got it 6 months ago
1 Java Fern that is doing really good attached to some wood
3 "Onion" bulbs that are doing great, lapping on the top
3 Annubias that have grown fairly well but have the algea problem on the
leaves (see first post)
2 small bunches of Ludwiga, I think...can't remember.

I had many more plants like dwarf swords, some banana plants, some crypts
but they all slowly died. Now I know it was due to low light levels. I
really want to carpet the front of my tank with something but never had much
luck in the past.

I will start looking into a compressed CO2 setup.

Thanks,
Jesse

"LeighMo" wrote in message
...
Another thing about this new light (Coral Life 4 x 65), it only casts
a lot of light to the back of the tank while the front gets less than
it used to.

Yes, that's the problem with power compact flourescents -- the "compact"
part.
g That's why I ended up getting another light strip. It wasn't that my
tank
didn't have enough light; it was. Everything was growing great, with just
one
2x65w strip. But with only one PCF light strip, I had to constantly move
the
strip around, or the plants would lean noticeably toward the light. I got
the
second light strip so I didn't have to worry about that any more. And the
plants promptly started growing so fast that my Carbo-Plus couldn't keep
up,
and I had to get compressed CO2.

I would say the light from this fixture is much more
"focused" than regular tubes. Would you agree with this?

Definitely. If I had to do it over again, I think I'd just get a 4' shop
light
or two. It would have been a heck of a lot cheaper. And you'd have a lot
more
control over the lighting.

Leigh,
looking at your web site and reading you tank specs, it sounds like
you have 2 CF fixtures with 2 bulbs each. Is that correct.

Yes. In back is a Custom Sealife 2x65w strip, and in front is an
All-Glass
2x55w.

Your tank
looks so bright! Mine is bright, just not like yours is bright.

That's odd. I would expect your light fixture to be extremely bright,
especially when it's new.

Maybe the Coralife has a bad reflector...but it surely can't be worse than
the
All-Glass one. As others have noted, All-Glass' reflectors are terrible.

It's probably just that I have one of my light strips flush with the front
of
the tank, so it's very bright in front. (The low plants -- glosso,
lilaeopsis,
etc., are there, so I wanted light right over them.)

If I
take this CF light back and get two fixtures with 2 tubes each, I
believe that would distribute the light better. What do you think?

It probably would. OTOH, it does mean I have to pick up the front light
strip
and put it on top of the rear one every time I open the tank to feed the
fish.

FWIW, the Custom Sealife PCF light strips have much better reflectors than
the
All-Glass. If you get Custom Sealife, get the Britelite, not the
Smartlite.

But AH Supply or a big ol' shop light from Home Depot would be a lot
cheaper.

Also, how many of you use the "standard" glass tops like from
All-Glass?

That's what I use. It's inexpensive, easy, and sturdy. The cat can jump
on
the top the tank without any fear he'll fall in. You just have to
remember to
wipe the glass every once in awhile, to keep dust, hard water deposits,
etc.,
from blocking the light. (I use a solution of vinegar and water.)

BTW...with this much light in your tank, you need more than just Sag and
Val in
your tank. You must have enough fast-growing plants to out-compete the
algae.
You should plant 80% of the tank or more, and, at least at first, most of
the
plants should be fast-growing stem plants. Hygrophila, Cabomba,
Limnophila,
Rotala, etc.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

I had many more plants like dwarf swords, some banana plants, some crypts
but they all slowly died. Now I know it was due to low light levels. I
really want to carpet the front of my tank with something but never had much
luck in the past.

Well, with as much light as you have now and CO2, you should be able to grow a
nice carpet!

However, you really should get some fast growing plants. Stem plants. The
plants you have now are almost all low-light plants (not surprisingly).
Low-light plants tend to be slow growers. They don't suck up nutrients fast
enough to keep algae at bay.

And it's easier to prevent algae than to get rid of it once you have it....


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/