Hi.

I planted some Sagittaria and Vallisneria about 6 months ago and they
were growing great for a couple of months. Most of them even produced
a number of baby plant shoots. But for the past several months, the
baby shoots as well as the original plants have not been growing much.
The daughter plants got to about 2 inches and just stopped growing.
I have a 75 gallon tank with these plants as well as 3 large Amazon
Swords, some Annubias, Java Fern, Melon Sword, and some Onion bulbs.
My plants look good but not like I want them to.

I use Florish liquid 2 or 3 times per week as well as the carbon and
some Potassium about once per week. For lighting I have 2 40 watt
tubes... 1) 10000K and one CoralLife Nutra Grow Plant lamp. This
gives me 80 watts for my 75 gallon. Should I have more light and what
would be a better combination? I have Florite for the substrate.

For filter I have one Ehiem Professional II 2028 with surface
extractor. The filter contains Black Diamond carbon on the bottom
tray, the ceramic tubes on the second, and the course rock on the top
along with the sponge seperators. I also added some floss under the
first stage before the water goes through the carbon. How does this
sound to you guys? This was recommend from a guy at The Fish Store &
More here in Atlanta. I keep the water temperature at 78. That is
all I have for circulation. No other power heads. Would you
recommend for water current?

Also, another question is that my Amazon Swords get algae on their
leaves. Most of the leaves are nice, but some of the leaves have
started getting algea growth towards the end of the leaves. Its a
dark green algea that could almost be described as a sheet of algea.
I have trimmed off a handful of the older leaves that were about half
covered. I have no algea growth on any rocks, the bottom, or other
plants except some algea growth on some of the older Annubias leaves.
I have no surface scum. I do have to wipe the inside front of the
tank every couple of weeks to remove algea. Just light green stuff.

My water stays nice and clear with no green color or discoloration. I
do about 15% water change every 2 or 3 weeks.

My fish consist of 2 large Angelfish, 6 2" Clown Loaches, several Otto
and Chinese algea eater, 5 brochis splendens, 2 medium sized rainbow
fish, and a school of 8 of both Serpae and Red-Eye tetras. Oh, and one
Whiptail catfish.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

For lighting I have 2 40 watt
tubes... 1) 10000K and one CoralLife Nutra Grow Plant lamp. This
gives me 80 watts for my 75 gallon.

That is not enough. That's why your plants aren't growing. I would at least
double that light. Another light strip, a shop light, something.

I suspect your algae problem will go away once your lighting is adequate.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Hi, Thanks for the "more light" advice. I kinda thought that would be
the case. I will buy another fixture today.

I wanted to update my post with my current water conditions, before
lights come on in the morning.

PH = 7.5
KH = 4
NO2 = .3 mg/l
GH = ~2
NH3 = .25 mg/l

Thanks for the time taken reading my post.

Thanks,
Jesse

You can probably grow decent sags at that light level, although they will
get tall and be a bit mangy. Thin and space them out regularly to keep
light getting into the centers of the clumps. The vals will never make it,
though, sorry.

kush

SlimFlem wrote in message
om...
Hi.

I planted some Sagittaria and Vallisneria about 6 months ago and they
were growing great for a couple of months. Most of them even produced
a number of baby plant shoots. But for the past several months, the
baby shoots as well as the original plants have not been growing much.
The daughter plants got to about 2 inches and just stopped growing.
I have a 75 gallon tank with these plants as well as 3 large Amazon
Swords, some Annubias, Java Fern, Melon Sword, and some Onion bulbs.
My plants look good but not like I want them to.

I use Florish liquid 2 or 3 times per week as well as the carbon and
some Potassium about once per week. For lighting I have 2 40 watt
tubes... 1) 10000K and one CoralLife Nutra Grow Plant lamp. This
gives me 80 watts for my 75 gallon. Should I have more light and what
would be a better combination? I have Florite for the substrate.

For filter I have one Ehiem Professional II 2028 with surface
extractor. The filter contains Black Diamond carbon on the bottom
tray, the ceramic tubes on the second, and the course rock on the top
along with the sponge seperators. I also added some floss under the
first stage before the water goes through the carbon. How does this
sound to you guys? This was recommend from a guy at The Fish Store &
More here in Atlanta. I keep the water temperature at 78. That is
all I have for circulation. No other power heads. Would you
recommend for water current?

Also, another question is that my Amazon Swords get algae on their
leaves. Most of the leaves are nice, but some of the leaves have
started getting algea growth towards the end of the leaves. Its a
dark green algea that could almost be described as a sheet of algea.
I have trimmed off a handful of the older leaves that were about half
covered. I have no algea growth on any rocks, the bottom, or other
plants except some algea growth on some of the older Annubias leaves.
I have no surface scum. I do have to wipe the inside front of the
tank every couple of weeks to remove algea. Just light green stuff.

My water stays nice and clear with no green color or discoloration. I
do about 15% water change every 2 or 3 weeks.

My fish consist of 2 large Angelfish, 6 2" Clown Loaches, several Otto
and Chinese algea eater, 5 brochis splendens, 2 medium sized rainbow
fish, and a school of 8 of both Serpae and Red-Eye tetras. Oh, and one
Whiptail catfish.

Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Per recommendations of several people and the LFS, I bought a Compact
Flor light. It has 2 10000K and 2 6500K. Each bulb is 65 watts. I
also kept one of the standard strip lights in the front of the tank
with a plant bulb in it. I did this mainly to ensure my Mellon Sword
has enough light. I think it is a 6500K as well. The tank is much
brighter, but not too bright.

For the PH, the local LFS recommened I bring it down to 6.5. I am
using SeaChem's Stabilizer and Discus Buffer to do this. My Anglefish
and Loaches should enjoy the lower PH and the plants should respond
better as well.

-jesse


(SlimFlem) wrote in message . com...
Hi, Thanks for the "more light" advice. I kinda thought that would be
the case. I will buy another fixture today.

I wanted to update my post with my current water conditions, before
lights come on in the morning.

PH = 7.5
KH = 4
NO2 = .3 mg/l
GH = ~2
NH3 = .25 mg/l

Thanks for the time taken reading my post.

Thanks,
Jesse

Per recommendations of several people and the LFS, I bought a Compact
Flor light. It has 2 10000K and 2 6500K. Each bulb is 65 watts. I
also kept one of the standard strip lights in the front of the tank
with a plant bulb in it. I did this mainly to ensure my Mellon Sword
has enough light. I think it is a 6500K as well. The tank is much
brighter, but not too bright.

Yikes! Four 65 W PCFs over a 75 gallon tank is a *lot* of light. Plus the
strip light! That's too much!

If you're going to have 4x65W of light over this tank, you need a compressed
CO2 system. It's *not* optional.

Until you get a compressed CO2 system set up, turn off half the lights. Two
65W bulbs will be plenty over this tank.

For the PH, the local LFS recommened I bring it down to 6.5. I am
using SeaChem's Stabilizer and Discus Buffer to do this. My Anglefish
and Loaches should enjoy the lower PH and the plants should respond
better as well.

Either you misunderstood what they told you, or they don't know what they are
talking about. Lower the pH in and of itself does not help plants. Adding CO2
lowers pH, and it's the CO2 that the plants need. Lowering the pH by other
means is useless.

To repeat, use only half your new lights until you get a compressed CO2 system
set up. There *is* such a thing as too much light!


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

For filter I have one Ehiem Professional II 2028 with surface
extractor. The filter contains Black Diamond carbon on the bottom
tray, the ceramic tubes on the second, and the course rock on the top
along with the sponge seperators. I also added some floss under the
first stage before the water goes through the carbon.

If you are injecting CO2, then you should consider more lighting. About 1
watt per gallon in a non-injected tank is ok, and 2-4 watts per gallon in an
injected tank.

IME, as plants grow in, and lamps age, more lighting may be needed than was
initially the case when the tank is first set up. So, initially your 80
watts might have been minimally enough light. Now, it may not be.

I am not sure how much Flourish you are adding. Are you checking your iron
levels? There are test kits available that can give you a rough idea of how
much iron is in the water. I use this level as a guide to whether I need to
add more "micronutrient" fertilizer (i.e., Flourish or Tropica Master Grow)
or not. With a relatively low light level, I would be surprised if you need
to add Flourish three times a week. If your iron is around .1 ppm, then you
need not add fertilizer. If you have a lot more than this, then you are
probably overdosing. (Seachem makes a good iron test kit.)

Change your water more often, and change more of it. If you have not
discovered the python, this is a beautiful tool. It makes water changes
much easier. I would change 40 to 50 percent of your tank water once per
week.

The sheet algae you mention sounds like blue-green slime algae, which is
actually a bacteria. If it is indeed blue green algae, it normally rubs off
of your plants and tank equipment quite easily. Typically, this type of
algae kinda smells bad too. Erythromycin and other antibiotics can treat
it, though if you do not get your light and nutrient mix correct it will
return. Many claim that low nitrate levels cause blue-green algae to
appear. In the case of low nitrate levels, the blue green algae tends to
form on the filter return or somewhere that gets air easily. (I understand
that this type of bacteria can extract nitrogen from the air directly, and
so tends to favor locations where this can happen more easily.) I always
recommend Chuck Gadd's site, lots of very good and accessible articles there
to help you understand everything from CO2 injection to fertilizing your
plants. Check it out: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/. He has an article
there about plant nutrients that you should read. He also has an article
about dosing your tank with nitrate should it need it. (With the amount of
water you are changing and the frequency that you are changing it, I find it
hard to believe that you have a shortage of nitrates. Low nitrates are not
the only reason blue green algae can appear, but that is a scenario I am
familiar with. Other readers may be able to help me understand the
circumstances under which blue-green algae occurs.)

Also, I would take the carbon out of the filter. Certain important trace
elements that you are trying to maintain (by adding Flourish) may well get
partially or entirely absorbed by the carbon, especially just after you put
new carbon in. I would get rid of the carbon in favor of some of the
ceramic loops that Eheim sells. You are really just trying to create a
hospitable place for nitrifying bacteria to live. The other filter
substrate Eheim sells is probably better for a planted tank, since it
accomplishes this without taking out trace elements.

LeighMo wrote ...

...turn off half the lights. Two 65W bulbs will be plenty over this tank.

Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too
dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2.

...Lowering the pH by other means is useless.

Much, much, much worse than useless if those products contain phosphates!
If you're proposing to fire-up 4.5 watts per gallon over a solution of
phosphates and nitrates, you had best be standing by with the scrapers and
scouring pads because you are going to be able to watch that algae growing!

Don't sweat the pH too much. My 75 gallon is steady at between 7.4 and 7.5
with three soda bottles of CO2 and 220 watts of lighting. The plants are
flourishing and need to be pruned back weekly, and I have happy, healthy
angelfish. You'll only really need to bring your pH down under 7 if you
want to breed your angels.

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too
dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2.

My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and
lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to
grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only
130w.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Let me give a little more detail:

The LFS (The Fish Store & More in Atlanta) said with this new light, I
should start by having only 8 hours of light per day and gradually
increasing it to no more than 12. This will allow the plants time to
adjust to the more intense lighting. Also, my tank is not shining
like the sun, like some of you might be thinking.

Again, the LFS said CO2 injection is not *really* required and all it
is said to be just because of high lighting levels. Several of the
guys there said they have never used CO2 with high light levels and
have always had great results. In addition to using carbon or
PuriGen. Thoughts?

Concerning the PH, again the LFS said the Angels and Loaches would
enjoy the 6.5 more than 7.5. The statement about the plants is that
the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to synthisize elements/minerals/etc.
better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure. The way I
am doing this is by using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus
Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad
thing? The way I was told to use this product is to follow the ratio
on the containers by mixing the product in a jug of my tank water and
pouring it back in. This will be done once per week until the PH is
at 6.5. Also, after water changes. Does this not sound correct?
Why? Would it really hurt to do this?

And, my tank is not couldy, the water is crystal clear. It sounds
like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea breakout from
these new lights. The LFS guys did say initally there might be a
slight increase in water algea, but it would go away after a few days
since the plants will be robbing it of nutrients.

Thoughts please.

THanks.


tose (LeighMo) wrote in message ...
Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too
dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2.

My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and
lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to
grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only
130w.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Two thoughts. First, Leigh is right. Four 65 watt lamps is a lot of light
for a non-injected tank. That coupled with the ph adjustment could spell
trouble-- and here is why.

Normally, ph adjustment products accomplish the ph reset by using a
phosphate based ph buffer. This phosphate together with your high light
levels could well set up an environment that is ideal for brush algae-- very
ugly stuff that is hard to get rid of. These products do not last in the
water anyhow. I would not use them. Why not reset your ph the way that has
proven itself-- with CO2 injection?

Having said these things, I will be very interested to see if all of these
ramblings of mine turn out to be correct. I can only tell you what I have
seen happen in my tanks-- I used a ph adjuster a long time back, before I
was really into heavily planted tanks, for breading (or attempting to
breed) harlequin rasboras. I never got the fish to spawn, but I did get all
kinds of weird and smelly algae to grow. Please take a look at the web
site I recommended.

The light fixture you purchased will be perfect for you in the long run
after you get CO2 going.

On a side note, I did some further research to discover that in addition to
the low nitrate scenario I mentioned in a previous post, blue-green algae
can form in low oxygen conditions which frequently occur when circulation is
poor. You mention you do not have much water movement. Your low light
levels, low circulation environment may have caused low oxygen conditions.
Improve the circulation, get your new lights going (I recommend 130 watts
for now until you get CO2 going) and dose your tank with 200 mg of
erythromycin phosphate per 10 gallons of water. This should clear the algae
on your swords.

-Bruce Geist


"SlimFlem" wrote in message
om...
Let me give a little more detail:

The LFS (The Fish Store & More in Atlanta) said with this new light, I
should start by having only 8 hours of light per day and gradually
increasing it to no more than 12. This will allow the plants time to
adjust to the more intense lighting. Also, my tank is not shining
like the sun, like some of you might be thinking.

Again, the LFS said CO2 injection is not *really* required and all it
is said to be just because of high lighting levels. Several of the
guys there said they have never used CO2 with high light levels and
have always had great results. In addition to using carbon or
PuriGen. Thoughts?

Concerning the PH, again the LFS said the Angels and Loaches would
enjoy the 6.5 more than 7.5. The statement about the plants is that
the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to synthisize elements/minerals/etc.
better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure. The way I
am doing this is by using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus
Buffer. These do contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad
thing? The way I was told to use this product is to follow the ratio
on the containers by mixing the product in a jug of my tank water and
pouring it back in. This will be done once per week until the PH is
at 6.5. Also, after water changes. Does this not sound correct?
Why? Would it really hurt to do this?

And, my tank is not couldy, the water is crystal clear. It sounds
like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea breakout from
these new lights. The LFS guys did say initally there might be a
slight increase in water algea, but it would go away after a few days
since the plants will be robbing it of nutrients.

Thoughts please.

THanks.


tose (LeighMo) wrote in message
...
Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was
too
dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2.

My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and
lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's
trying to
grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with
only
130w.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Another thing about this new light (Coral Life 4 x 65), it only casts
a lot of light to the back of the tank while the front gets less than
it used to. I would say the light from this fixture is much more
"focused" than regular tubes. Would you agree with this? Leigh,
looking at your web site and reading you tank specs, it sounds like
you have 2 CF fixtures with 2 bulbs each. Is that correct. Your tank
looks so bright! Mine is bright, just not like yours is bright. If I
take this CF light back and get two fixtures with 2 tubes each, I
believe that would distribute the light better. What do you think?
Also, how many of you use the "standard" glass tops like from
All-Glass?

Thanks for reading all the ranting, I just want to get my lighting
like it should/needs to be.

Thanks,
Jesse


tose (LeighMo) wrote in message ...
Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too
dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2.

My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and
lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's trying to
grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with only
130w.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

SlimFlem wrote ...

The statement about the plants is that the 6.5 PH will allow the plants to
synthisize elements/minerals/etc.
better than at 7.5. How true this is, I'm not really sure.

Mmm, there is something about trace elements precipitating out, which I
think is related to total hardness, which is related to pH, but I'm not
clear on the chemistry myself. Any water chemistry geeks tuned into this
thread?

... using SeaChem's Neutral Regulator with the Discus Buffer. These do
contain phospate buffers. Is this really a bad
thing?

This is a really, really bad thing for two reasons. First, you are
providing more phosphate than your plants can readily use, thereby
encouraging the proliferation of algae. Second, these products do not
persist in the aquarium - because your plants and algae are using them, and
you're dumping them when you perform water changes - which means you will be
perpetually adjusting your water chemistry and struggling to achieve and
maintain a desirable equilibrium.

... It sounds like you guys are thinking I am going to have an algea
breakout from these new lights.

Yes, we are; from the lights, the phosphates, and the lack of sufficient CO2
(see below).

The LFS guys did say initally there might be a slight increase in water
algea, but it would go away after a few days since the plants will be
robbing it of nutrients.

This COULD be true, provided the plants have everything they need to sustain
vigorous growth in the correct balance. Biologic growth is limited by
whatever factor is in least supply. If you are providing ample light for
photosynthesis and abundant nutrients but the plants lack sufficient CO2,
they will not repeat not grow. At the light levels you are proposing (even
leaving aside the issue of the phosphates), supplementing with CO2 is NOT
optional. With 4.5 watts per gallon and a nutrient-rich water stream, I
would start with a minimum of three soda bottles of DIY CO2. Maybe more.

Alternatively, I would get a signed and witnessed agreement from your LFS to
clean your tank out for you after two months. Tee hee.

Regarding the variable lighting schedule, I would recommend against that,
too. The goal you are shooting for is to achieve a stable, desirable
environment in your tank. The more factors you have to adjust, the harder
that will be. I'd recommend a constant equatorial eleven hour day (where
the first and last half hour of each day, the sun strikes the water at such
an extreme angle that very little light penetrates more than a few inches
into the water).

kush

"You can't have everything - where would you put it?"

I have bad luck with vals, so I'm not going to try to pass myself off as an
authority. I always thought it was the light... hmmf. Certainly, 130 watts
over a 75 gallon is plenty for the sags, although they will be taller and
not grow as densely as they would with more light.

kush

LeighMo wrote in message
...
Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was too
dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2.

My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and
lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's
trying to
grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with
only
130w.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

What kind of reflectors do you have in the hoods?

All-Glass "reflectors" (and I use the term loosely) suck. I retrofitted my
48" hoods with CF bulbs and reflectors from AH Supply. It's AMAZING how
much brighter they are with decent reflectors in them.

I still use my All-Glass canopy, so I understand what you're asking. They
have those little 22" "windows" in them which do somewhat serve to focus the
light straight downward. If you were to place your light hoods directly
over the tank (like I do when I'm pruning) without using the canopy, I'm
sure you would see a big difference. For me, I trade a few watts of
dispersed lighting for the convenience of all those slots and hinged
openings.

kush

SlimFlem wrote in message
om...
Another thing about this new light (Coral Life 4 x 65), it only casts
a lot of light to the back of the tank while the front gets less than
it used to. I would say the light from this fixture is much more
"focused" than regular tubes. Would you agree with this? Leigh,
looking at your web site and reading you tank specs, it sounds like
you have 2 CF fixtures with 2 bulbs each. Is that correct. Your tank
looks so bright! Mine is bright, just not like yours is bright. If I
take this CF light back and get two fixtures with 2 tubes each, I
believe that would distribute the light better. What do you think?
Also, how many of you use the "standard" glass tops like from
All-Glass?

Thanks for reading all the ranting, I just want to get my lighting
like it should/needs to be.

Thanks,
Jesse


tose (LeighMo) wrote in message
...
Well, two 65's plus the strip light, maybe. I found my 75 gallon was
too
dim with 160 watts over it (4 x 40 watt) even before I added CO2.

My 75 gallon tank was fine with 2x65W. Very low plants, like glosso and
lilaeopsis, have done better since I doubled the lighting. But he's
trying to
grow Sag and Val. Those are moderate-light plants, and will thrive with
only
130w.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/