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Old 20-04-2003, 06:21 AM
SLEngst
 
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Default Timing: NO3 addition/measurement

Need help with logic, timing of addition of NO3 additives vs. measurement
of NO3 levels after addition. Is addition most beneficial in the AM? I want
to attain 5 ppm (I'm up from zero to 0.2ppm). At what time, relative to nitrate
addition, should I be doing the measurement? Directly after addition? or some
period of time later, say 12 hrs? 24 hrs?

The consensus would be to add macronutrients twice a week, but build up slowly
so avoiding fish shock. Starting at under 1/2 dosage one M. praecox hit the
dirt (gravel). Should I use daily additions to build up? (Light's dawning - I
had to tear down, clean and replant the tanks maybe a month ago, perhaps I over
cleaned the flourite? and hence the value of my N additions seem zilch until I
build up some mulm?)

Advice has it that extra fish food = any additional PO4 needs. My PO4 is close
to my goal for NO3 at 5 ppm. What ratio of NO3/PO4 are the fish + feed
providing? (Assume fish load and feeding are correct) What levels are they
providing? Any rule of thumb?

Dumb question 6 or 15 - Seachem's Nitrogen. They state their product is
some form of ammonia??? Would residual nitrogen from that source not be picked
up by NO3 testing (La Motte kit)? I get zero on NH4 measurements, as well.
Frustrated with continued zero NO3 readings I switched to KNO3 and got small
but measurable NO3.

Any help on these questions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Sharon.

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Old 20-04-2003, 06:21 AM
Dave Millman
 
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Default Timing: NO3 addition/measurement

SLEngst wrote:

Need help with logic, timing of addition of NO3 additives vs. measurement
of NO3 levels after addition. Is addition most beneficial in the AM? I want
to attain 5 ppm (I'm up from zero to 0.2ppm). At what time, relative to nitrate
addition, should I be doing the measurement? Directly after addition? or some
period of time later, say 12 hrs? 24 hrs?


In general, you must wait "a while" to measure anything you've added. If you need
to measure something you have dosed directly, such as measuring nitrate after
dosing nitrate, an hour with sufficient circulation is probably enough. If you need
to measure the RESULT of something you dosed, such as measuring pH after turning on
CO2 or adding baking soda, many hours may be required (and the measurement changes
over the course of the lighting period!)

Another issue:Well mixed liquids diffuse to all areas of the tank quickly. If you
are adding granules of something, you need to figure out or observe how long it
takes the solid form to dissolve. If measurements are at stake, predissolve the
solids to avoid this uncertainty.


The consensus would be to add macronutrients twice a week, but build up slowly
so avoiding fish shock. Starting at under 1/2 dosage one M. praecox hit the
dirt (gravel). Should I use daily additions to build up?


Slow is mandatory. I raised measured nitrate by less than 2ppm per week (near 0 to
about 10 over 6 weeks) without ill effects on anyone. Plants liked it though!

I prefer daily dosing for one simple reason: it's a simple habit to squirt 10 ml of
prepared solution into the tank each morning, particularly when caffeine does not
activate my brain for 2-3 more hours. When I was dosing twice weekly, I tended to
lose track.

(Light's dawning - I
had to tear down, clean and replant the tanks maybe a month ago, perhaps I over
cleaned the flourite? and hence the value of my N additions seem zilch until I
build up some mulm?)


You removed some nutrients. If you removed the majority of your aged mulm, then
your nitrate production level may have gone down. But that does not change the
"value of your N additions." You took out mulm which was contributing X ppm per
day, that's all.

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Old 20-04-2003, 06:21 AM
SLEngst
 
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Default Timing: NO3 addition/measurement

Dave, excellent advice. I'm predissolving KNO3 granules. As you were building
up from 2 - 10 ppm (I'm trying to build up from zero to 5) were you making
measurements of your results say, an hour after dosing, or 12 hrs. after the
plants had devoured the NO3? I.e., I'm not sure if I'm aiming for 5 ppm and
hour after dosing in the AM or 12 hrs after dosing.

Thanks, Sharon
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Old 20-04-2003, 06:21 AM
 
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Default Timing: NO3 addition/measurement

(SLEngst) wrote in message ...
Need help with logic, timing of addition of NO3 additives vs. measurement
of NO3 levels after addition. Is addition most beneficial in the AM?


No, it doesn't matter when during the day any nutrients is dosed.

I want
to attain 5 ppm (I'm up from zero to 0.2ppm). At what time, relative to nitrate
addition, should I be doing the measurement? Directly after addition? or some
period of time later, say 12 hrs? 24 hrs?


About 15-30min will be okay.

The consensus would be to add macronutrients twice a week, but build up slowly
so avoiding fish shock. Starting at under 1/2 dosage one M. praecox hit the
dirt (gravel).


I've had large additions and never any trouble with any species of
fish. I'd suspect something else. Fish get funny at much higher levels
of NO3, generally, planted tanks are VERY LOW NO3.
You mentioned 0.2ppm of NO3. There are extremely few, if any kits,
that will give this resolution and they are pricy(over 60$ etc). The
Lamott kits will get to about 1ppm or so but remember, multiply by 4.4
to get NO3, most kits are gauged for N, not NO3.

Should I use daily additions to build up? (Light's dawning - I
had to tear down, clean and replant the tanks maybe a month ago, perhaps I over
cleaned the flourite? and hence the value of my N additions seem zilch until I
build up some mulm?)


should be okay.


Advice has it that extra fish food = any additional PO4 needs. My PO4 is close
to my goal for NO3 at 5 ppm. What ratio of NO3/PO4 are the fish + feed
providing? (Assume fish load and feeding are correct) What levels are they
providing? Any rule of thumb?


Not really, fish food is a poor source and difficult to measure. Often
it does not add enough PO4.
A 10:1 ratio is what is present in aquatic plants(N:P).

Dumb question 6 or 15 - Seachem's Nitrogen. They state their product is
some form of ammonia???


Bound ammonium.
If you are using this to get the NO3 levels then there might be
something going on with the fish and the levels of this product.

Would residual nitrogen from that source not be picked
up by NO3 testing (La Motte kit)? I get zero on NH4 measurements, as well.


Not sure but it could be the cause of the issue. I don't like to dose
with stuff I cannot test or forms I know are not common in aquatic
systems.
KNO3 and fish food for the NH4 is good enough for me. Cheap too.
Plants have always done great.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Frustrated with continued zero NO3 readings I switched to KNO3 and got small
but measurable NO3.

Any help on these questions would be appreciated. Thanks in advance, Sharon.

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Old 20-04-2003, 06:21 AM
SLEngst
 
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Default Timing: NO3 addition/measurement

NO3 measurements. Tom, you are right. The La Motte kit will do 0.2 nitrogen,
I forgot to multiply by the ??? 4.4 factor. So I'm up to 0.8+ but have a long
way to go. No, I'm no longer using the Seachem Nitrogen. I wasn't sure I could
measure where I was going. You may be right about the M. praecox going belly up
for some reason other than NO3 addition, the females seem to outlive the males
by a bunch.

Thanks for the help,
Sharon


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Old 20-04-2003, 06:21 AM
SLEngst
 
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Default Timing: NO3 addition/measurement


I wrote:
measure where I was going. You may be right about the M. praecox going belly

up
for some reason other than NO3 addition, the females seem to outlive the males
by a bunch.


Chuck Gadd wrote:

"I've got male praecox that are at least 4 years old...."

Sorry, Chuck, I was really joking. However, I've yet to lose a female, but
have lost several males. These were local lfs fish from who know's where. I'm
being more selective about where I'm getting 'bows, these days. This little
guy lost equilibrium, or boyancy - spent a day treading water vertically
instead of swimming horizontally then succumed. The only change had been
addition of Seachem Nitrogen.


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