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  #31   Report Post  
Old 13-05-2003, 10:56 PM
LeighMo
 
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Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Why is it difficult? Mine are easy.

Small tanks are much less forgiving. Anything that changes, changes a lot
faster. Evaporation alone can be PITA with a small tank.

But it's a lot of work. You have to choose plants and fish very carefully.


You also need to do so in a large tank.


Not *as* carefully. Many common plants and fish simply won't fit in a tiny
tank. You have a lot more freedom with a larger tank. He wants to keep
angelfish. That is not going to work with a 2.5 gallon tank.

I'm sorry, I don't agree. Unless you have a very tall 2.5 gallon tank,
you need less light in shallow aquaria. I grow low light plants and
medium light stem plants with 8 watts to 6 gallons.


You have over a watt per gallon. That's plenty for low-light plants,
especially given the short height of a small tank. Where the higher lighting
requirements come in are for high-tech, high-light, Amano-style tanks. Which
is what he seemed to want. (He said he wanted to be able to grow anything he
wanted.)

I have found that mini tanks are just as 'forgiving' as my old 75 and 45
gallon tanks.


I have not found that to be the case. I kept a 5 gallon tank for awhile, but
eventually gave it away. It was just too much work.

Many people inject c02 in 2.5 gallons!


I didn't say otherwise. However, it's more difficult to keep the pH stable in
a small tank.

I simply
have not seen any proof that smaller tanks that are maintained well and
with intelligence are any harder then a big tank.


The key words being "well and with intelligence." All I said was that I don't
recommend them for a beginner.

You sound as if you're quite experienced with tanks of all sizes. But this
person is a beginner. Remember what it's like to be a beginner? You buy fish
and plants and chemicals you see at the pet store, just because they look cool,
and put them all in your tank. You do water changes religiously for the first
month or two, then might go months without doing one. You buy more fish than
the tank can reasonably support, just because you have to have them. Etc. The
larger a tank is, the more forgiving it is of beginner mistakes, simply because
it's a larger reservoir. Water quality can't change as fast in a large
reservoir as in a small one, and so larger tanks will "absorb" mistakes that
would overwhelm a small tank.

I've seen many small tanks that are just gorgoeus. Even reef tanks. But for
beginners, the conventional wisdom is to get as large a tank as you have room
for and can afford, and IME, it's very good advice.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

  #32   Report Post  
Old 13-05-2003, 11:56 PM
Dave Millman
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Yesterday I visited Ocean Aquarium in San Francisco again. Among the 50-70
planted tanks there (every tank in the store is planted!) are about 10 under 10
gallons. About 5 are the tiny 1-2 gallon glass types. He plants them with
appropriate scale plants, just a tad of lighting, and small fish like Endlers
livebearers.

Spectacular!

  #33   Report Post  
Old 14-05-2003, 01:56 AM
Vincent
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Actually, I have seen planted tank with a lot of angels, but for my
personal experience, I had difficulty keeping them together with other
tank mates. My oto likes to harass them by clinging on to their
scales...

My experience with serpae tetra is not too good either. They tend to
intomidate the neons and cardinals in my tank. I would go for
cardinals, neons, yamato shrimps, SAE and badis badis. They are
excellent tankmates.

cheers


Sherry Michael Weller wrote in message .. .
Hello!

I've found a lot of things people say about smaller tanks being
'difficult' a myth. I have two six gallon planted tanks. Nano and
microtanks are fun. www.aquabotanic.com has a Wet Thumbs micro tank
planted bulletin board you may be interested in. There are several 2.5
planted tanks.


Can it be possible to have a planted tank which is 10gals or less(2.5gal)?


Of course! IMO, I have found them to be rewarding and not all that hard.
I've traded my large tanks for small ones over the years.
Here is one of mine: http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~sherrym/fish.html

What kind of lighting and chemicals should I use to keep the plants healthy
and thriving?


It all depends on the kind of plants and your water conditions. Do you
want high light or a low light tank? Study up and see what plants
interest you. Smaller tanks usually need less light per gallon usually
because they are more shallow.

What about compatible fish for the planted tank?


Most killifish are excellent. I would avoid livebearers due to sudden
population increases. I've used lemon tetras, mini cories and cherry
barbs with great success. Angels would not work. You can also just have
some amano or glass shrimp.

If I don't find any ideal type of sand, what could be the alternatives?


I use pure Flourite.

What plants do you recommend that I should start with?


Depends on how much light you can get. Hard to kills like crypts,
anubias, java ferns and
inexpensive stem plants like hygro and coonstail. Start with a LOT of
plants to out compete algae. The only problem will be selecting small
plants, but it can be done!

  #34   Report Post  
Old 14-05-2003, 01:56 PM
Ed
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Leigh,

I just don't find that to be the case.

I have an 18watt fixture over a ten gallon and I can grow pretty
anything I want to in there. At least everything I've put in there
has thrived.

I read before about this small tank high light phenomenon I tried it
but found that it wasn't necessary.

Regards,

Ed at
i-aquaria.com


On 13 May 2003 21:43:45 GMT, tose (LeighMo) wrote:

was at almost 4
watts per on all of my tanks.... then my bulbs started going out one
at a time and I just let them be. I found that once the plants
reacclimated to to lower light situation that they grew just fine....


I'm not saying that you can't have low-light planted tanks. I'm just saying
that if you do want a high-light, high-tech tank, you'll need more watts per
gallon in a small tank (under 5 gallons) than in a large one.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

  #35   Report Post  
Old 14-05-2003, 02:08 PM
Ed
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Sorry Leigh I missed your point there....

You said:
"I'm just saying that if you do want a high-light, high-tech tank, you'll need more watts per
gallon in a small tank (under 5 gallons) than in a large one."


I can't argue with that. I guess it is true. I just found through
tiral and error that there is no way that I need a "high light" "high
tech" tank under 10 gals. At least not with my Los Angeles tap
water...plus I would think that you wouldn't want things to grow too
fast in a small setup. That would be a royal PITA.

In fact I've had more nutrient and CO2 and lighting problems in my
larger tanks. I think larger tanks are more forgiving.... but they are
also more demanding.

Regards,

Ed




On 13 May 2003 21:43:45 GMT, tose (LeighMo) wrote:

was at almost 4
watts per on all of my tanks.... then my bulbs started going out one
at a time and I just let them be. I found that once the plants
reacclimated to to lower light situation that they grew just fine....


I'm not saying that you can't have low-light planted tanks. I'm just saying
that if you do want a high-light, high-tech tank, you'll need more watts per
gallon in a small tank (under 5 gallons) than in a large one.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/



  #36   Report Post  
Old 14-05-2003, 07:32 PM
Sherry Michael Weller
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?


Why is it difficult? Mine are easy.


Small tanks are much less forgiving. Anything that changes, changes a lot
faster. Evaporation alone can be PITA with a small tank.


Like I said, I've always heard this, but have never found it true in
practice. I maintain my small tanks on the same schedule as my old large
tanks.

But it's a lot of work. You have to choose plants and fish very carefully.

You also need to do so in a large tank.


Not *as* carefully. Many common plants and fish simply won't fit in a tiny
tank. You have a lot more freedom with a larger tank. He wants to keep
angelfish. That is not going to work with a 2.5 gallon tank.


Well sure, and I told him that was a bad idea. But I see just as many
people trying to put an oscar or a goldfish in a 20 gallon too. It's all
the same problem if the the tank is 55 gallons or 5- education.

You have over a watt per gallon. That's plenty for low-light plants,
especially given the short height of a small tank. Where the higher lighting
requirements come in are for high-tech, high-light, Amano-style tanks. Which
is what he seemed to want. (He said he wanted to be able to grow anything he
wanted.)


I've never heard that said before, and I can't even fathom the logic in
that. If I have a 20 gallon tank that has 3 wpg, I should not need more
light in a 5 gallon tank to grow the same plants. especially since it's
likely the tank is deeper in the larger tank. Can you explain this one
more to me?

I have not found that to be the case. I kept a 5 gallon tank for awhile, but
eventually gave it away. It was just too much work.


Just curious, what kind of setup did you have?

I didn't say otherwise. However, it's more difficult to keep the pH stable in
a small tank.


I never had that problem either. Hopefully if your injecting co2 you
know about the KH and ph formula. The same rules apply, and hopefully
you are monitoring and going slow at first. I fiddle with my ph with a
lower KH then most people advise and I don't get fluxes in 24 hours over
..2. Oddly enough, the exact same rate of change I got in my 45 gallon
tank.

You sound as if you're quite experienced with tanks of all sizes. But this
person is a beginner. Remember what it's like to be a beginner? You buy fish
and plants and chemicals you see at the pet store, just because they look cool,
and put them all in your tank. You do water changes religiously for the first
month or two, then might go months without doing one. You buy more fish than
the tank can reasonably support, just because you have to have them. Etc. The
larger a tank is, the more forgiving it is of beginner mistakes, simply because
it's a larger reservoir. Water quality can't change as fast in a large
reservoir as in a small one, and so larger tanks will "absorb" mistakes that
would overwhelm a small tank.


True enough, but he asked if it was possible. He's here asking questions
before he buys, so kudos already. My opinion of what he can do has
increased tenfold then your average newbie. I also don't see a ten
gallon tank absorbing very many beginners mistakes. If he was debating
between a 60 and a 2.5 gallon, I'd understand that.
  #37   Report Post  
Old 15-05-2003, 12:20 AM
LeighMo
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Small tanks are much less forgiving. Anything that changes, changes a lot
faster. Evaporation alone can be PITA with a small tank.


Like I said, I've always heard this, but have never found it true in
practice. I maintain my small tanks on the same schedule as my old large
tanks.


Not me. I live up north, and I have central heating. Very dry in winter. The
5 gallon tank suffered so much evaporation in the winter that I had to remember
to top off the tank every other day or so, or the water level would drop so low
the filter would stop running.

Well sure, and I told him that was a bad idea. But I see just as many
people trying to put an oscar or a goldfish in a 20 gallon too. It's all
the same problem if the the tank is 55 gallons or 5- education.


But obviously, the larger the tank, the more room for error. Which was my
point.

I've never heard that said before, and I can't even fathom the logic in
that. If I have a 20 gallon tank that has 3 wpg, I should not need more
light in a 5 gallon tank to grow the same plants. especially since it's
likely the tank is deeper in the larger tank. Can you explain this one
more to me?


See this article:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Tech/Lighting/

Basically, it's a lighting survey that shows that the watt per gallon rule
breaks down for very large tanks (over 100 gallons) and very small tanks (under
5 gallons).

As for the reason...I don't know for sure, but I suspect it's due to the nature
of flourescent lights, and a certain obvious flaw in the wpg rule.

The longer a flourescent bulb is, the more efficient it is. So you get more
light per watt from a 4' bulb than from a shorter one.

And the wpg rule ignores the fact that height is more important than the other
dimensions. And height really doesn't change much as a tank gets larger.
Length is the dimension that changes the most. But the wpg rule treats all
dimensions as equal. Obviously, a tank that was 2'x2x6' tall would need more
light than one that's 6'x2'x2'. But the wpg rule would say they're the same
volume, and so need the same amount of light.

Just curious, what kind of setup did you have?


I had it set up in various ways. When I had a Betta in it, there was no
filtration. I tried it with a sponge filter for shrimp, and with a UGF for
various small critters. I even had it set up as a brackish tank for a pair of
baby puffers for awhile.

I never had that problem either. Hopefully if your injecting co2 you
know about the KH and ph formula. The same rules apply, and hopefully
you are monitoring and going slow at first


With DIY CO2, it's hard to overdose the tank if you have a 20 gallon. You can
OD and kill all the fish with DIY CO2 on a 2 gallon tank.

True enough, but he asked if it was possible.


And I didn't say it wasn't possible. I just tried to encourage him to go with
the larger tank.

I also don't see a ten
gallon tank absorbing very many beginners mistakes.


Larger would be better, but a 10 gallon is better than 2-1/2 gallons.
Following the beginner's rule of an inch of fish per gallon, he'd have to limit
himself to 2 fish. Very difficult for a beginner. With a ten gallon, he could
get himself ten small fish, and even if he went overboard, and got a few extra,
or some larger fish, he'd probably be okay.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/
  #38   Report Post  
Old 15-05-2003, 03:56 AM
Brian
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

I have a 5 gallon planted tank, with a DIY hood housing a $10 CF lamp,
13W if I recall. My only problem is getting enough CO2. My DIY CO2 isn't
good enough; I need a better diffusor.

B

--
Brian Heller

It is easier to tame wild beasts
than to conquer the human mind.
  #39   Report Post  
Old 16-05-2003, 07:32 PM
E. Mito
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

For those of you who DO keep very small planted tanks, what kinds of plants
would you recommend using? I'd like to redo my 2 gallon; the main problem I've
experienced with its current setup is that the plants grow too quickly and
large for the tank to stay looking nice. I plan to use java moss and riccia,
but am at a loss for some nice leafy plants. I'm thinking of using lobelia
cardinalis and perhaps java fern...but am not sure what other options to
consider that won't outgrow the tank too quickly.

It's a 2 gallon heated Eclipse Explorer; filtered with a 13W full spectrum CF.
Fluorite sand with a top layer of larger gravel and some decorative rocks.

TIA.


Erica
http://members.aol.com/_ht_a/mitoem/mitoem/index.htm

  #40   Report Post  
Old 17-05-2003, 12:44 PM
Sergey Politaev
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

"E. Mito" wrote in message
...
For those of you who DO keep very small planted tanks, what kinds of

plants
would you recommend using?


As you can achieve high light intensity in small tank much more easier than
in big one (and you have it already), I'd recomend some high light demanding
slow growers. I have good experience of keeping Hemiantus and Micranthemum
in similar conditions. Lobelia also can be a good choice.
--
~SP~
Age doesn't always bring wisdom,
sometimes age comes alone.




  #41   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:45 PM
LeighMo
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Hang on, I'm interested, tell me more about that point: why do small
tanks need more watt/gallon? Because crowded plants shade each other more?


No. I'm not sure exactly why this is the case. It's something that has become
evident empirically: the watts per gallon rule breaks down with very small or
very large tanks.

It probably is partly due to flaws in the rule of the thumb, as well as the
nature of flourescent lights.

The longer a flourescent bulb is, the more efficient it is. So a 4' bulb
throws out more light per watt than a shorter bulb does.

And the rule of thumb -- watts per gallon -- doesn't take into account the fact
that height is the most important dimension. As tanks get bigger, they don't
get much higher. Once you're over 100 gallons, the tanks only get longer, not
higher.

See this article for more info:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Tech/Lighting/

Basically, it found that for tanks under five gallons, 8 watts per gallon may
not be enough, while for tanks over 100 gallons, 2 watts per gallon is too
much.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/
  #42   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Ed
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Leigh wrote:

"No. I'm not sure exactly why this is the case. It's something that
has become evident empirically: the watts per gallon rule breaks down
with very small or very large tanks. "

While I don't have sound scientific proof.... I don't think that is
not necessarily true. I have maintained many high light tanks in the
past and have switched over to lower light tanks. I pretty much
lowered my wattage by a 1/3 to 1/2 on all my tanks. I was at almost 4
watts per on all of my tanks.... then my bulbs started going out one
at a time and I just let them be. I found that once the plants
reacclimated to to lower light situation that they grew just fine....
and I had much less maintenance, had to add fewer nutrients and my
electric bill dropped dramatically!

Regards,

Ed @
i-aquaria dot com



On 11 May 2003 19:07:49 GMT, tose (LeighMo) wrote:

No. I'm not sure exactly why this is the case. It's something that has become
evident empirically: the watts per gallon rule breaks down with very small or
very large tanks.


  #43   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
LeighMo
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

was at almost 4
watts per on all of my tanks.... then my bulbs started going out one
at a time and I just let them be. I found that once the plants
reacclimated to to lower light situation that they grew just fine....


I'm not saying that you can't have low-light planted tanks. I'm just saying
that if you do want a high-light, high-tech tank, you'll need more watts per
gallon in a small tank (under 5 gallons) than in a large one.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/
  #44   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Ed
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Leigh,

I just don't find that to be the case.

I have an 18watt fixture over a ten gallon and I can grow pretty
anything I want to in there. At least everything I've put in there
has thrived.

I read before about this small tank high light phenomenon I tried it
but found that it wasn't necessary.

Regards,

Ed at
i-aquaria.com


On 13 May 2003 21:43:45 GMT, tose (LeighMo) wrote:

was at almost 4
watts per on all of my tanks.... then my bulbs started going out one
at a time and I just let them be. I found that once the plants
reacclimated to to lower light situation that they grew just fine....


I'm not saying that you can't have low-light planted tanks. I'm just saying
that if you do want a high-light, high-tech tank, you'll need more watts per
gallon in a small tank (under 5 gallons) than in a large one.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

  #45   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Ed
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Sorry Leigh I missed your point there....

You said:
"I'm just saying that if you do want a high-light, high-tech tank, you'll need more watts per
gallon in a small tank (under 5 gallons) than in a large one."


I can't argue with that. I guess it is true. I just found through
tiral and error that there is no way that I need a "high light" "high
tech" tank under 10 gals. At least not with my Los Angeles tap
water...plus I would think that you wouldn't want things to grow too
fast in a small setup. That would be a royal PITA.

In fact I've had more nutrient and CO2 and lighting problems in my
larger tanks. I think larger tanks are more forgiving.... but they are
also more demanding.

Regards,

Ed




On 13 May 2003 21:43:45 GMT, tose (LeighMo) wrote:

was at almost 4
watts per on all of my tanks.... then my bulbs started going out one
at a time and I just let them be. I found that once the plants
reacclimated to to lower light situation that they grew just fine....


I'm not saying that you can't have low-light planted tanks. I'm just saying
that if you do want a high-light, high-tech tank, you'll need more watts per
gallon in a small tank (under 5 gallons) than in a large one.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/



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