Thanx for the info, kush and all others.

We have really soft, high pH water out of the tap here. Even if i use
that phosphate filled ph-Down stuff, the ph rises again anyway after a
few days. I have never had my tank acid! I have spent some time
investigating this phenomenon (the tendency for the pH to rise) and my
current theory is that its being buffered to a higher pH by the water
conditioner i use (these blue crystals, sold in australia by 'bates pets
paradise'). Im still unsure though. i tried removing all the rocks in
the tank, thikning they were affecting the pH, but it made no
difference: the tank just tends to increase in pH.

The 'pongol' im talking about is this stuff:
Ophiopogon japonicus, which is also mondo grass.

http://www.tropica.com/productcard.asp?id=159

and the dwarf variety

http://www.tropica.com/productcard.asp?id=159A

which makes it sound like a rather lame aquatic plant anyway.

"Can be used as a decorative plant, but only lasts a few months."

Bah! I'll sue the crap shop i got em from!

n

kush wrote:
Nick L-S wrote ...

the tank has an undergravel filter, which i hear isnt good for plants.


Sure it is. Different plants will do better with or without a UGF, though.
Deep root feeders like amazon swords and crypts do better without a UGF,
most plants don't matter, and stem plants - plants which send roots out at
the leaf nodes - seem to do better with a UGF.


My question is, does pH matter? The water here has a naturally high pH...


Yes, pH matters, but so many other factors affect pH that it's less
important than a number of other things initially like, probably, gH and
kH. As your tank becomes established the pH will tend downward. I use DIY
CO2 and a lot of driftwood or bogwood in my heavily planted tanks so that,
although the pH of my household water is about 8.0 out of the tap, the pH in
my tanks is usually around 7.4.


but if i try and use pH-down...


This is a phosphate-based product. It may not lower your pH but it will
give you SUCH an algae bloom!


All the plants seem to be doing OK except for some long and dwarf
pongol, do these plants need special treatment? Im currently not using
any sort of fertilizer, but i am thinking i will....


I don't know that name. Do you have the Latin?

Thanx for the info, kush and all others.

We have really soft, high pH water out of the tap here. Even if i use
that phosphate filled ph-Down stuff, the ph rises again anyway after a
few days. I have never had my tank acid! I have spent some time
investigating this phenomenon (the tendency for the pH to rise) and my
current theory is that its being buffered to a higher pH by the water
conditioner i use (these blue crystals, sold in australia by 'bates pets
paradise'). Im still unsure though. i tried removing all the rocks in
the tank, thikning they were affecting the pH, but it made no
difference: the tank just tends to increase in pH.

The 'pongol' im talking about is this stuff:
Ophiopogon japonicus, which is also mondo grass.

http://www.tropica.com/productcard.asp?id=159

and the dwarf variety

http://www.tropica.com/productcard.asp?id=159A

which makes it sound like a rather lame aquatic plant anyway.

"Can be used as a decorative plant, but only lasts a few months."

Bah! I'll sue the crap shop i got em from!

n

kush wrote:
Nick L-S wrote ...

the tank has an undergravel filter, which i hear isnt good for plants.


Sure it is. Different plants will do better with or without a UGF, though.
Deep root feeders like amazon swords and crypts do better without a UGF,
most plants don't matter, and stem plants - plants which send roots out at
the leaf nodes - seem to do better with a UGF.


My question is, does pH matter? The water here has a naturally high pH...


Yes, pH matters, but so many other factors affect pH that it's less
important than a number of other things initially like, probably, gH and
kH. As your tank becomes established the pH will tend downward. I use DIY
CO2 and a lot of driftwood or bogwood in my heavily planted tanks so that,
although the pH of my household water is about 8.0 out of the tap, the pH in
my tanks is usually around 7.4.


but if i try and use pH-down...


This is a phosphate-based product. It may not lower your pH but it will
give you SUCH an algae bloom!


All the plants seem to be doing OK except for some long and dwarf
pongol, do these plants need special treatment? Im currently not using
any sort of fertilizer, but i am thinking i will....


I don't know that name. Do you have the Latin?

We have really soft, high pH water out of the tap here.

Have you tried leaving some tapwater in a cup or bucket overnight, and seeing
what the pH is then? Often, the pH right out of the tap is only temporary.
When the water reaches equilibrium with gases in the air, the pH may change.

Also, do you know what your KH is?

If your KH is low but your pH is high, the problem might be your plants. See
the thread called "after planting, pH 9" -- it discusses what can happen if you
have too much light over a tank.

You don't say how big your tank is, and you don't say if you inject CO2. But
if you have more than 3 watts per gallon and don't inject CO2, pH is going to
be a problem. It can even kill your fish.





Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

We have really soft, high pH water out of the tap here.

Have you tried leaving some tapwater in a cup or bucket overnight, and seeing
what the pH is then? Often, the pH right out of the tap is only temporary.
When the water reaches equilibrium with gases in the air, the pH may change.

Also, do you know what your KH is?

If your KH is low but your pH is high, the problem might be your plants. See
the thread called "after planting, pH 9" -- it discusses what can happen if you
have too much light over a tank.

You don't say how big your tank is, and you don't say if you inject CO2. But
if you have more than 3 watts per gallon and don't inject CO2, pH is going to
be a problem. It can even kill your fish.





Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Leigh,

Interesting thread, however my lighting is not anywhere near that much.
I have a 36W CF and its a ~20 gallon tank. So not even 2 W/Gallon.

I need to get myself a testkit to measure KH, but even then i dont think
it would be my plants: i have had this problem for a while, and the tank
has been until recently quite poorly planted.

Sigh..

Thanks for all the help guys and gals,

when i get myself a testkit, i'll hassle u with it again

cheers

nick


LeighMo wrote:
We have really soft, high pH water out of the tap here.


Have you tried leaving some tapwater in a cup or bucket overnight, and seeing
what the pH is then? Often, the pH right out of the tap is only temporary.
When the water reaches equilibrium with gases in the air, the pH may change.

Also, do you know what your KH is?

If your KH is low but your pH is high, the problem might be your plants. See
the thread called "after planting, pH 9" -- it discusses what can happen if you
have too much light over a tank.

You don't say how big your tank is, and you don't say if you inject CO2. But
if you have more than 3 watts per gallon and don't inject CO2, pH is going to
be a problem. It can even kill your fish.





Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Leigh,

Interesting thread, however my lighting is not anywhere near that much.
I have a 36W CF and its a ~20 gallon tank. So not even 2 W/Gallon.

I need to get myself a testkit to measure KH, but even then i dont think
it would be my plants: i have had this problem for a while, and the tank
has been until recently quite poorly planted.

Sigh..

Thanks for all the help guys and gals,

when i get myself a testkit, i'll hassle u with it again

cheers

nick


LeighMo wrote:
We have really soft, high pH water out of the tap here.


Have you tried leaving some tapwater in a cup or bucket overnight, and seeing
what the pH is then? Often, the pH right out of the tap is only temporary.
When the water reaches equilibrium with gases in the air, the pH may change.

Also, do you know what your KH is?

If your KH is low but your pH is high, the problem might be your plants. See
the thread called "after planting, pH 9" -- it discusses what can happen if you
have too much light over a tank.

You don't say how big your tank is, and you don't say if you inject CO2. But
if you have more than 3 watts per gallon and don't inject CO2, pH is going to
be a problem. It can even kill your fish.





Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

I need to get myself a testkit to measure KH, but even then i dont think
it would be my plants: i have had this problem for a while, and the tank
has been until recently quite poorly planted.

In that case, I would guess that either your water naturally has a high pH, or
there's something wrong with the test kit. (Test kits often give weird results
when they get too old. It's best to buy them from a store that does a lot of
business. That way, you know it hasn't been sitting on a shelf in storeroom
for five years.)


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

I need to get myself a testkit to measure KH, but even then i dont think
it would be my plants: i have had this problem for a while, and the tank
has been until recently quite poorly planted.

In that case, I would guess that either your water naturally has a high pH, or
there's something wrong with the test kit. (Test kits often give weird results
when they get too old. It's best to buy them from a store that does a lot of
business. That way, you know it hasn't been sitting on a shelf in storeroom
for five years.)


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

pH value, but many other factors pH, it is less important to a number of other things than the original, perhaps, growth hormone, and KH. When you become an established tank will tend to decline in pH value. I do a lot with their hands and a carbon dioxide or bogwood massive planting of driftwood in my tank, so, although my family is about 8.0 pH of water out of tap water, pH, usually in my tank at 7.4.