Hi All,

I recently went out and got a 2ft 36W compact fluro, because my plants
were dying horribly. I have a community tropical tank, but i like real
plants. Plants we have had in the past have just slowly withered and
died. The new light appears to be doing quite well, but the tank has an
undergravel filter, which i hear isnt good for plants.

My question is, does pH matter? The water here has a naturally high pH,
but if i try and use pH-down (for the fishes) it just goes back up again
in a matter of days. I dont quite know why, but are there any plants
which dislike a high pH?

All the plants seem to be doing OK except for some long and dwarf
pongol, do these plants need special treatment? Im currently not using
any sort of fertilizer, but i am thinking i will....

cheers!

nick

"Nick L-S" wrote in message
...



My question is, does pH matter? The water here has a naturally high pH,
but if i try and use pH-down (for the fishes) it just goes back up again
in a matter of days. I dont quite know why, but are there any plants
which dislike a high pH?


Yes, PH matters to plants. Some plants tolerate a wide range of PH, others
are very particular. Research individual varieties to determine thier
preference.
As far as your ph not being stable, you need to increase your tank's
buffering capacity. I have rarely had trouble with this, as my tap water is
close to neutral here. Others will be more helpful in helping you lock down
the ph.

"Nick L-S" wrote in message
...



My question is, does pH matter? The water here has a naturally high pH,
but if i try and use pH-down (for the fishes) it just goes back up again
in a matter of days. I dont quite know why, but are there any plants
which dislike a high pH?


Yes, PH matters to plants. Some plants tolerate a wide range of PH, others
are very particular. Research individual varieties to determine thier
preference.
As far as your ph not being stable, you need to increase your tank's
buffering capacity. I have rarely had trouble with this, as my tap water is
close to neutral here. Others will be more helpful in helping you lock down
the ph.

Nick L-S wrote ...

the tank has an undergravel filter, which i hear isnt good for plants.

Sure it is. Different plants will do better with or without a UGF, though.
Deep root feeders like amazon swords and crypts do better without a UGF,
most plants don't matter, and stem plants - plants which send roots out at
the leaf nodes - seem to do better with a UGF.


My question is, does pH matter? The water here has a naturally high pH...

Yes, pH matters, but so many other factors affect pH that it's less
important than a number of other things initially like, probably, gH and
kH. As your tank becomes established the pH will tend downward. I use DIY
CO2 and a lot of driftwood or bogwood in my heavily planted tanks so that,
although the pH of my household water is about 8.0 out of the tap, the pH in
my tanks is usually around 7.4.

but if i try and use pH-down...

This is a phosphate-based product. It may not lower your pH but it will
give you SUCH an algae bloom!

All the plants seem to be doing OK except for some long and dwarf
pongol, do these plants need special treatment? Im currently not using
any sort of fertilizer, but i am thinking i will....

I don't know that name. Do you have the Latin?

Nick L-S wrote ...

the tank has an undergravel filter, which i hear isnt good for plants.

Sure it is. Different plants will do better with or without a UGF, though.
Deep root feeders like amazon swords and crypts do better without a UGF,
most plants don't matter, and stem plants - plants which send roots out at
the leaf nodes - seem to do better with a UGF.


My question is, does pH matter? The water here has a naturally high pH...

Yes, pH matters, but so many other factors affect pH that it's less
important than a number of other things initially like, probably, gH and
kH. As your tank becomes established the pH will tend downward. I use DIY
CO2 and a lot of driftwood or bogwood in my heavily planted tanks so that,
although the pH of my household water is about 8.0 out of the tap, the pH in
my tanks is usually around 7.4.

but if i try and use pH-down...

This is a phosphate-based product. It may not lower your pH but it will
give you SUCH an algae bloom!

All the plants seem to be doing OK except for some long and dwarf
pongol, do these plants need special treatment? Im currently not using
any sort of fertilizer, but i am thinking i will....

I don't know that name. Do you have the Latin?

My question is, does pH matter? The water here has a naturally high pH,
but if i try and use pH-down (for the fishes) it just goes back up again
in a matter of days. I dont quite know why, but are there any plants
which dislike a high pH?

I wouldn't worry about the pH. Contrary to popular belief, plants like hard
water (which generally comes with a high pH).

All the plants seem to be doing OK except for some long and dwarf
pongol, do these plants need special treatment?

Yes, they need to be dry. g I believe "pongols" are bog plants, not
aquarium plants. No matter what you do, they die if you submerge them all the
time. Put them in a terrarium or paludarium, but not in an aquarium.

Unfortunately, a lot of pet shops are in the habit of selling bog plants as
true aquatics. Sometimes they tell customers they are "annuals" that are
supposed to die after a few weeks or months, and be replaced. :-P Do your
research before you buy.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

My question is, does pH matter? The water here has a naturally high pH,
but if i try and use pH-down (for the fishes) it just goes back up again
in a matter of days. I dont quite know why, but are there any plants
which dislike a high pH?

I wouldn't worry about the pH. Contrary to popular belief, plants like hard
water (which generally comes with a high pH).

All the plants seem to be doing OK except for some long and dwarf
pongol, do these plants need special treatment?

Yes, they need to be dry. g I believe "pongols" are bog plants, not
aquarium plants. No matter what you do, they die if you submerge them all the
time. Put them in a terrarium or paludarium, but not in an aquarium.

Unfortunately, a lot of pet shops are in the habit of selling bog plants as
true aquatics. Sometimes they tell customers they are "annuals" that are
supposed to die after a few weeks or months, and be replaced. :-P Do your
research before you buy.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Nick L-S wrote in message ...
Hi All,

I recently went out and got a 2ft 36W compact fluro, because my plants
were dying horribly. I have a community tropical tank, but i like real
plants. Plants we have had in the past have just slowly withered and
died. The new light appears to be doing quite well, but the tank has an
undergravel filter, which i hear isnt good for plants.

My question is, does pH matter? The water here has a naturally high pH,
but if i try and use pH-down (for the fishes) it just goes back up again
in a matter of days. I dont quite know why, but are there any plants
which dislike a high pH?

Well it's a TWO part issue when you talk about pH. Plant like good CO2
levels.
CO2 and KH TOGETHER determine the pH. CO2 is the acid and the KH is
the buffer.

Plants want CO2, not some specific pH or KH.

Take a look here under "references" for the pH/KH/CO2 table.

You'll note that at a KH of 3 and a pH of 6.4 will give you 35ppm or
mg/l of CO2. Now look at KH of 20 and a pH of 7.2. This will give you
a CO2 level of 37ppm about the same as the KH of 3.

All you do to get a good CO2 level is add enough CO2 gas to drop the
pH to 6.4 for the KH of 3. That's it. Don't use anything else to
manipulate the pH. Just CO2 gas since this is what the plant want.
You do not want to have less than a KH of 3 generally.

So make sure you understand the relationship, it takes two to tango
here.
One by itself does not tell enough information about CO2 levels.

All the plants seem to be doing OK except for some long and dwarf
pongol, do these plants need special treatment? Im currently not using
any sort of fertilizer, but i am thinking i will....
cheers!
nick

Terrestrial plant, I have it along my sidewalk here.
Generally if you add a fair amount of light, you'll need more CO2 and
nutrients. These are the three things plants need to grow well(Light,
CO2 and nutrients). If one of these is out of balance, then you get
algae generally.
Regards,
Tom Barr

Nick L-S wrote in message ...
Hi All,

I recently went out and got a 2ft 36W compact fluro, because my plants
were dying horribly. I have a community tropical tank, but i like real
plants. Plants we have had in the past have just slowly withered and
died. The new light appears to be doing quite well, but the tank has an
undergravel filter, which i hear isnt good for plants.

My question is, does pH matter? The water here has a naturally high pH,
but if i try and use pH-down (for the fishes) it just goes back up again
in a matter of days. I dont quite know why, but are there any plants
which dislike a high pH?

Well it's a TWO part issue when you talk about pH. Plant like good CO2
levels.
CO2 and KH TOGETHER determine the pH. CO2 is the acid and the KH is
the buffer.

Plants want CO2, not some specific pH or KH.

Take a look here under "references" for the pH/KH/CO2 table.

You'll note that at a KH of 3 and a pH of 6.4 will give you 35ppm or
mg/l of CO2. Now look at KH of 20 and a pH of 7.2. This will give you
a CO2 level of 37ppm about the same as the KH of 3.

All you do to get a good CO2 level is add enough CO2 gas to drop the
pH to 6.4 for the KH of 3. That's it. Don't use anything else to
manipulate the pH. Just CO2 gas since this is what the plant want.
You do not want to have less than a KH of 3 generally.

So make sure you understand the relationship, it takes two to tango
here.
One by itself does not tell enough information about CO2 levels.

All the plants seem to be doing OK except for some long and dwarf
pongol, do these plants need special treatment? Im currently not using
any sort of fertilizer, but i am thinking i will....
cheers!
nick

Terrestrial plant, I have it along my sidewalk here.
Generally if you add a fair amount of light, you'll need more CO2 and
nutrients. These are the three things plants need to grow well(Light,
CO2 and nutrients). If one of these is out of balance, then you get
algae generally.
Regards,
Tom Barr

On 23 Feb 2003 11:01:33 GMT, tose (LeighMo) wrote:

I wouldn't worry about the pH. Contrary to popular belief, plants like hard
water (which generally comes with a high pH).

Plants also like CO2 in the water. A high pH automatically means there
is a low level of CO2 in the tank.

In the end only very few plants will grow well in tanks with a high pH
- Vallisneria comes to mind. If you want to keep a well planted tank
you will have to keep your pH lower than 7.5

This is not part of some 'popular belief' - this is basic 'planted
tank'-fact.

Clear Surf,

ET69 - who happens to be dutch.

On 23 Feb 2003 11:01:33 GMT, tose (LeighMo) wrote:

I wouldn't worry about the pH. Contrary to popular belief, plants like hard
water (which generally comes with a high pH).

Plants also like CO2 in the water. A high pH automatically means there
is a low level of CO2 in the tank.

In the end only very few plants will grow well in tanks with a high pH
- Vallisneria comes to mind. If you want to keep a well planted tank
you will have to keep your pH lower than 7.5

This is not part of some 'popular belief' - this is basic 'planted
tank'-fact.

Clear Surf,

ET69 - who happens to be dutch.

BAH! I have a PH of 8.0 and everything grows like weeds.....except the
vallisneria...which is just starting to send out runners...plants LOVE hard
water.

ET69 wrote:

On 23 Feb 2003 11:01:33 GMT, tose (LeighMo) wrote:

I wouldn't worry about the pH. Contrary to popular belief, plants like hard
water (which generally comes with a high pH).

Plants also like CO2 in the water. A high pH automatically means there
is a low level of CO2 in the tank.

In the end only very few plants will grow well in tanks with a high pH
- Vallisneria comes to mind. If you want to keep a well planted tank
you will have to keep your pH lower than 7.5

This is not part of some 'popular belief' - this is basic 'planted
tank'-fact.

Clear Surf,

ET69 - who happens to be dutch.

BAH! I have a PH of 8.0 and everything grows like weeds.....except the
vallisneria...which is just starting to send out runners...plants LOVE hard
water.

ET69 wrote:

On 23 Feb 2003 11:01:33 GMT, tose (LeighMo) wrote:

I wouldn't worry about the pH. Contrary to popular belief, plants like hard
water (which generally comes with a high pH).

Plants also like CO2 in the water. A high pH automatically means there
is a low level of CO2 in the tank.

In the end only very few plants will grow well in tanks with a high pH
- Vallisneria comes to mind. If you want to keep a well planted tank
you will have to keep your pH lower than 7.5

This is not part of some 'popular belief' - this is basic 'planted
tank'-fact.

Clear Surf,

ET69 - who happens to be dutch.

Plants also like CO2 in the water. A high pH automatically means there
is a low level of CO2 in the tank.

No, it does not. If your KH is high, you can have a high pH with a lot of CO2.

In the end only very few plants will grow well in tanks with a high pH
- Vallisneria comes to mind.

That is simply not true. Plants like hard water, and hard water often comes
with high pH.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Plants also like CO2 in the water. A high pH automatically means there
is a low level of CO2 in the tank.

No, it does not. If your KH is high, you can have a high pH with a lot of CO2.

In the end only very few plants will grow well in tanks with a high pH
- Vallisneria comes to mind.

That is simply not true. Plants like hard water, and hard water often comes
with high pH.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/