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  #31   Report Post  
Old 01-03-2003, 04:44 AM
linda mar
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?

hi,

The stuff under the plates is only likely to be a problem if you shut off
the UGF without cleaning it out and develop a anaerobic environment (no
oxygen) that leads to H2S and trouble.


i've heard of this sulfur/sulfide toxin.. does anyone know how long will it
be ok before things start going anaerobic? (I'm thinking about several hours
worth of power failure.. not shutting it off on purpose) or is this one of
those YMMV thing...?

DIY CO2 is really simple. I just installed one, granted I don't have a

good
control on the injection rate, that goes in tomorrow, but It is working
water is fine. I just have to use a air bubbler to keep the CO2 level

from
going overboard. I've had plants grow over and inch in two days.


good to know... :-) I guess it will be more of a logistics thing for me..

my apongeton boivi.... whatever grows very fast too. probably several inches
in a day (will be a good competition with amaryllis bulb..).. the
references say 20inches.. I swear mine is over 40 inches long... seems like
it's growing too fast it's tearing itself and leaving holes...

linda


  #32   Report Post  
Old 01-03-2003, 06:19 AM
Robert Flory
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?


"linda mar" wrote in message
...
hi,

SNIP

i've heard of this sulfur/sulfide toxin.. does anyone know how long will

it
be ok before things start going anaerobic? (I'm thinking about several

hours
worth of power failure.. not shutting it off on purpose) or is this one of
those YMMV thing...?

I'm out of my league here, but I suspect that it would take more than a
couple of hours, but a heavy organic load could go anaerobic pretty fast.
The question is how long it would take to produce enough H2S to cause
problems. That I don't know.

Bob


  #33   Report Post  
Old 01-03-2003, 06:19 AM
Robert Flory
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?


"linda mar" wrote in message
...
hi,

SNIP

i've heard of this sulfur/sulfide toxin.. does anyone know how long will

it
be ok before things start going anaerobic? (I'm thinking about several

hours
worth of power failure.. not shutting it off on purpose) or is this one of
those YMMV thing...?

I'm out of my league here, but I suspect that it would take more than a
couple of hours, but a heavy organic load could go anaerobic pretty fast.
The question is how long it would take to produce enough H2S to cause
problems. That I don't know.

Bob


  #34   Report Post  
Old 01-03-2003, 06:20 AM
Robert Flory
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?

brewers yeast and sugar, unless you want to go fancy and use wine yeast,
then you can filter it and drink it when you are done, or so some claim.

Bob
"linda mar" wrote in message
...
Hi,

should I air-bubble it overnight? or just leave it sitting?


Either way, a couple of gallons should entirely outgas overnight,
particularly if you start with hot water.


ok. hot water.. will let you know how it turns out...

waaa :-( too much hardware... my tank is essentially free-standing,

so
more tubes will not be easily routed, not to mention not much floor

space
left inside the tank...


Don't sweat it. A 2-liter juice bottle with an airline from the cap
straight to your powerhead, that's it. You can set the juice bottle on

top
of the tank. We'll talk about it later. How big is the tank?


tank is 37G (footprint is equivalent to 29G.. 30x12x22)..

hmm 2-liter soda bottle on top of tank? not sure about that one.. aside
from the aesthetics, given how flimsy the plastic center brace of the tank
is, I'd be a little hesitant to put more weight on top of it.. (I'm not
entirely convinced that the glass hood and the light fixture isn't already
over-stressing it.. not very sturdy... I wish I had known about other tank
manufacturers other than AGA that doesn't have center brace for this size
tank... oh well). aside from that, the only space left on top would be
where I open the lid to feed fish... would using something like Flourish
Excel be better? I guess that just gets too expensive after a while...

will
bottle under the tank with one-way check valve work instead of putting on
top? I assume this is some sort of yeast brew?

may be shutting out the sunlight completely for a week in the room will
clear the water :-P and not worry about CO2 :-P (one can always hope!).

oh.
the tank doesn't get direct sunlight, but the room is pretty bright...
(large windows)

linda




  #35   Report Post  
Old 01-03-2003, 06:20 AM
Robert Flory
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?

brewers yeast and sugar, unless you want to go fancy and use wine yeast,
then you can filter it and drink it when you are done, or so some claim.

Bob
"linda mar" wrote in message
...
Hi,

should I air-bubble it overnight? or just leave it sitting?


Either way, a couple of gallons should entirely outgas overnight,
particularly if you start with hot water.


ok. hot water.. will let you know how it turns out...

waaa :-( too much hardware... my tank is essentially free-standing,

so
more tubes will not be easily routed, not to mention not much floor

space
left inside the tank...


Don't sweat it. A 2-liter juice bottle with an airline from the cap
straight to your powerhead, that's it. You can set the juice bottle on

top
of the tank. We'll talk about it later. How big is the tank?


tank is 37G (footprint is equivalent to 29G.. 30x12x22)..

hmm 2-liter soda bottle on top of tank? not sure about that one.. aside
from the aesthetics, given how flimsy the plastic center brace of the tank
is, I'd be a little hesitant to put more weight on top of it.. (I'm not
entirely convinced that the glass hood and the light fixture isn't already
over-stressing it.. not very sturdy... I wish I had known about other tank
manufacturers other than AGA that doesn't have center brace for this size
tank... oh well). aside from that, the only space left on top would be
where I open the lid to feed fish... would using something like Flourish
Excel be better? I guess that just gets too expensive after a while...

will
bottle under the tank with one-way check valve work instead of putting on
top? I assume this is some sort of yeast brew?

may be shutting out the sunlight completely for a week in the room will
clear the water :-P and not worry about CO2 :-P (one can always hope!).

oh.
the tank doesn't get direct sunlight, but the room is pretty bright...
(large windows)

linda






  #36   Report Post  
Old 02-03-2003, 12:12 AM
Jody
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?

I had green water once, and a friend of mine recently had the hazy look you
describe. What worked for me was covering the tank with a blanket for about
3 days. No lights, no food, and everyone survived. It worked for both of
us, so you might give it a shot.

Jody

"linda mar" wrote in message
...
Dear experts..

I've been having hazy water ever since the first day I put fish in the

tank,
with some dose of "Cycle" as recommende by LFS and the bottle. it's not
completely cloudy, but hazy.. just enough to be very useful to get some
depth perception photo between the foreground leaves and background

leaves..

I've finished cycling for several weeks, algae is under control, ammonia

and
nitrite=0 (still waiting to get my nitrate test kit). The water is

slightly
alkaline (pH somewhere between 7.5 and 8 depending on who tests it) and
relatively soft (never tested, but based on municipal water report dH~4 or
so), and is kept around 78F. I just bought the freshwater test kit, so
starting this water change cycle, I will be able to run a battery of test

to
monitor the water condition (low dH/gH has potential pH crash worries..)

Tank cycled using UGF using a relatively coarse pea-sized gravel about 2in
thick, powered by two power heads (aquaclear 201's). The power head

spouts
are tilted enough to cause some surface agitation (lots of ripples), but
does not use venturi. I have added a HOT power filter hoping to

supplement
mechanical filtering after the tank finished cycling (aquaclear200. two
foam blocks, no carbon) hoping it would help clear the water better (no

such
luck). Tank is moderately to heavily planted, and moderately stocked.

(the
cloudiness was there even when very lightly stocked and no plants, so.).

I
have some bogwoods in the tank (some tannin leeching, but that's ok.
Decided yellowish water by itself doesn't bother me.. just the haze)

Starting this weekend, I've decided to do some systematic cleaning over

the
next few weeks, to see if I can somehow get the water to clear up more. I
know hazy water doesn't hurt the fish, but it's just that I envy my

favorite
LFSs' crystal-clear tanks (some even have real plants, and they still look
very very clear. only murky tanks are when they're cleaning the tank, or

the
feeder fish tank..), and the fact that the other two smaller tanks we have
are very clear (eclipse hood). so, cloudy water=something not quite
optimal..

Here is the list I've come up with that I should try to address, and see

if
the water will clear up. I was hoping the experts on this group can point
me to other places to investigate (or just tell me to give up if the
following effort doesn't pan out):

1. water changes
I do 20%-25% water change every 2 weeks ever since the tank has cycled (I
target 15-20%, but seems to end up taking out more water than I intended
when using siphon-style gravel vac..). Obviously this in itself hasn't
helped much in clearing out water
2. gravel vac
I just bought the air-pump activated gravel vac, so I can do more thorough
vacumming (the siphon vac took out water too quickly). I hope to remove

as
much plant debris, and other detritus from the gravel and plants, without
malnutritioning the plants. (will be putting root tabs soon)
3. UGF maintenance
try to siphon out some of the gunk accumulating underneath the UGF plating
(use narrow tubing and shove it under the plate through the uplift tube
opening). Last time I got lots of brownish goo out... I guess the

substrate
is too coarse and letting lots of detrius get trapped under the plating,

oh
well.. next time i'll get something better)
3. plant cleaning
remove all deteriorating leaves on all stem plants, continue to vacuum out
crud that accumulates on fine-leaved plants (acting as a filter!)
4. foam filter on powerfilter
take out and clean (not used for biological filter yet) often. May be add

a
finer filter floss? (what size mesh? I see 50um or 100um particle traps)?
5. add aqua-clear type particle coagulator for more efficient mechanical
filtering.

are there other things I should look at to see how I can increase the

water
clarity without hurting the ecosystem? I assume normal gravel

vac/siphoning
under UGF plating won't hurt the beneficial bacteria. I won't clean the
power filter and UGF at the same time (will stagger cleaning timing) to
assure that the bacteria colony isn't completely destroyed.

linda





  #37   Report Post  
Old 02-03-2003, 12:12 AM
Jody
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?

I had green water once, and a friend of mine recently had the hazy look you
describe. What worked for me was covering the tank with a blanket for about
3 days. No lights, no food, and everyone survived. It worked for both of
us, so you might give it a shot.

Jody

"linda mar" wrote in message
...
Dear experts..

I've been having hazy water ever since the first day I put fish in the

tank,
with some dose of "Cycle" as recommende by LFS and the bottle. it's not
completely cloudy, but hazy.. just enough to be very useful to get some
depth perception photo between the foreground leaves and background

leaves..

I've finished cycling for several weeks, algae is under control, ammonia

and
nitrite=0 (still waiting to get my nitrate test kit). The water is

slightly
alkaline (pH somewhere between 7.5 and 8 depending on who tests it) and
relatively soft (never tested, but based on municipal water report dH~4 or
so), and is kept around 78F. I just bought the freshwater test kit, so
starting this water change cycle, I will be able to run a battery of test

to
monitor the water condition (low dH/gH has potential pH crash worries..)

Tank cycled using UGF using a relatively coarse pea-sized gravel about 2in
thick, powered by two power heads (aquaclear 201's). The power head

spouts
are tilted enough to cause some surface agitation (lots of ripples), but
does not use venturi. I have added a HOT power filter hoping to

supplement
mechanical filtering after the tank finished cycling (aquaclear200. two
foam blocks, no carbon) hoping it would help clear the water better (no

such
luck). Tank is moderately to heavily planted, and moderately stocked.

(the
cloudiness was there even when very lightly stocked and no plants, so.).

I
have some bogwoods in the tank (some tannin leeching, but that's ok.
Decided yellowish water by itself doesn't bother me.. just the haze)

Starting this weekend, I've decided to do some systematic cleaning over

the
next few weeks, to see if I can somehow get the water to clear up more. I
know hazy water doesn't hurt the fish, but it's just that I envy my

favorite
LFSs' crystal-clear tanks (some even have real plants, and they still look
very very clear. only murky tanks are when they're cleaning the tank, or

the
feeder fish tank..), and the fact that the other two smaller tanks we have
are very clear (eclipse hood). so, cloudy water=something not quite
optimal..

Here is the list I've come up with that I should try to address, and see

if
the water will clear up. I was hoping the experts on this group can point
me to other places to investigate (or just tell me to give up if the
following effort doesn't pan out):

1. water changes
I do 20%-25% water change every 2 weeks ever since the tank has cycled (I
target 15-20%, but seems to end up taking out more water than I intended
when using siphon-style gravel vac..). Obviously this in itself hasn't
helped much in clearing out water
2. gravel vac
I just bought the air-pump activated gravel vac, so I can do more thorough
vacumming (the siphon vac took out water too quickly). I hope to remove

as
much plant debris, and other detritus from the gravel and plants, without
malnutritioning the plants. (will be putting root tabs soon)
3. UGF maintenance
try to siphon out some of the gunk accumulating underneath the UGF plating
(use narrow tubing and shove it under the plate through the uplift tube
opening). Last time I got lots of brownish goo out... I guess the

substrate
is too coarse and letting lots of detrius get trapped under the plating,

oh
well.. next time i'll get something better)
3. plant cleaning
remove all deteriorating leaves on all stem plants, continue to vacuum out
crud that accumulates on fine-leaved plants (acting as a filter!)
4. foam filter on powerfilter
take out and clean (not used for biological filter yet) often. May be add

a
finer filter floss? (what size mesh? I see 50um or 100um particle traps)?
5. add aqua-clear type particle coagulator for more efficient mechanical
filtering.

are there other things I should look at to see how I can increase the

water
clarity without hurting the ecosystem? I assume normal gravel

vac/siphoning
under UGF plating won't hurt the beneficial bacteria. I won't clean the
power filter and UGF at the same time (will stagger cleaning timing) to
assure that the bacteria colony isn't completely destroyed.

linda





  #38   Report Post  
Old 03-03-2003, 09:33 AM
LM
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?

Hi Jody,

Thank you for your reply. so your friend's hazy tank cleared up with 3days
of no light? (just wanted to make sure.. I understand green water being
algae) Has your friend's water been clear since? or does he/she have to do
the black-out occasionally to keep it clear?

thanks!

linda


----------
In article , "Jody"
wrote:


I had green water once, and a friend of mine recently had the hazy look you
describe. What worked for me was covering the tank with a blanket for about
3 days. No lights, no food, and everyone survived. It worked for both of
us, so you might give it a shot.

Jody

  #39   Report Post  
Old 04-03-2003, 06:03 AM
Jody
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?

It has been over a week now, and the haze has not returned. From what he
told me, it was just this milky, hazy kind of appearance. It never became
green. When it happened to me, it started as hazy then changed to green. I
have had no reoccurence, and that was probably 3+ years ago.

HTH,
Jody

"LM" wrote in message
...
Hi Jody,

Thank you for your reply. so your friend's hazy tank cleared up with

3days
of no light? (just wanted to make sure.. I understand green water being
algae) Has your friend's water been clear since? or does he/she have to

do
the black-out occasionally to keep it clear?

thanks!

linda


----------
In article , "Jody"
wrote:


I had green water once, and a friend of mine recently had the hazy look

you
describe. What worked for me was covering the tank with a blanket for

about
3 days. No lights, no food, and everyone survived. It worked for both

of
us, so you might give it a shot.

Jody




  #40   Report Post  
Old 05-03-2003, 01:51 AM
linda mar
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?

thank you Jody!

I'll definitely try your method!

linda
"Jody" wrote in message
...
It has been over a week now, and the haze has not returned. From what he
told me, it was just this milky, hazy kind of appearance. It never became
green. When it happened to me, it started as hazy then changed to green.

I
have had no reoccurence, and that was probably 3+ years ago.

HTH,
Jody

"LM" wrote in message
...
Hi Jody,

Thank you for your reply. so your friend's hazy tank cleared up with

3days
of no light? (just wanted to make sure.. I understand green water being
algae) Has your friend's water been clear since? or does he/she have

to
do
the black-out occasionally to keep it clear?

thanks!

linda


----------
In article , "Jody"
wrote:


I had green water once, and a friend of mine recently had the hazy

look
you
describe. What worked for me was covering the tank with a blanket for

about
3 days. No lights, no food, and everyone survived. It worked for

both
of
us, so you might give it a shot.

Jody








  #41   Report Post  
Old 20-04-2003, 06:56 AM
Robert Flory
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?


"linda mar" wrote in message
...
Dear experts..

I've been having hazy water ever since the first day I put fish in the

tank,
with some dose of "Cycle" as recommende by LFS and the bottle. it's not
completely cloudy, but hazy.. just enough to be very useful to get some
depth perception photo between the foreground leaves and background

leaves..

I've finished cycling for several weeks, algae is under control, ammonia

and
nitrite=0 (still waiting to get my nitrate test kit). The water is

slightly
alkaline (pH somewhere between 7.5 and 8 depending on who tests it) and
relatively soft (never tested, but based on municipal water report dH~4 or
so), and is kept around 78F. I just bought the freshwater test kit, so
starting this water change cycle, I will be able to run a battery of test

to
monitor the water condition (low dH/gH has potential pH crash worries..)

Tank cycled using UGF using a relatively coarse pea-sized gravel about 2in
thick, powered by two power heads (aquaclear 201's). The power head

spouts
are tilted enough to cause some surface agitation (lots of ripples), but
does not use venturi. I have added a HOT power filter hoping to

supplement
mechanical filtering after the tank finished cycling (aquaclear200. two
foam blocks, no carbon) hoping it would help clear the water better (no

such
luck). Tank is moderately to heavily planted, and moderately stocked.

(the
cloudiness was there even when very lightly stocked and no plants, so.).

I
have some bogwoods in the tank (some tannin leeching, but that's ok.
Decided yellowish water by itself doesn't bother me.. just the haze)

Starting this weekend, I've decided to do some systematic cleaning over

the
next few weeks, to see if I can somehow get the water to clear up more. I
know hazy water doesn't hurt the fish, but it's just that I envy my

favorite
LFSs' crystal-clear tanks (some even have real plants, and they still look
very very clear. only murky tanks are when they're cleaning the tank, or

the
feeder fish tank..), and the fact that the other two smaller tanks we have
are very clear (eclipse hood). so, cloudy water=something not quite
optimal..

Here is the list I've come up with that I should try to address, and see

if
the water will clear up. I was hoping the experts on this group can point
me to other places to investigate (or just tell me to give up if the
following effort doesn't pan out):

1. water changes
I do 20%-25% water change every 2 weeks ever since the tank has cycled (I
target 15-20%, but seems to end up taking out more water than I intended
when using siphon-style gravel vac..). Obviously this in itself hasn't
helped much in clearing out water
2. gravel vac
I just bought the air-pump activated gravel vac, so I can do more thorough
vacumming (the siphon vac took out water too quickly). I hope to remove

as
much plant debris, and other detritus from the gravel and plants, without
malnutritioning the plants. (will be putting root tabs soon)
3. UGF maintenance
try to siphon out some of the gunk accumulating underneath the UGF plating
(use narrow tubing and shove it under the plate through the uplift tube
opening). Last time I got lots of brownish goo out... I guess the

substrate
is too coarse and letting lots of detrius get trapped under the plating,

oh
well.. next time i'll get something better)
3. plant cleaning
remove all deteriorating leaves on all stem plants, continue to vacuum out
crud that accumulates on fine-leaved plants (acting as a filter!)
4. foam filter on powerfilter
take out and clean (not used for biological filter yet) often. May be add

a
finer filter floss? (what size mesh? I see 50um or 100um particle traps)?
5. add aqua-clear type particle coagulator for more efficient mechanical
filtering.

are there other things I should look at to see how I can increase the

water
clarity without hurting the ecosystem? I assume normal gravel

vac/siphoning
under UGF plating won't hurt the beneficial bacteria. I won't clean the
power filter and UGF at the same time (will stagger cleaning timing) to
assure that the bacteria colony isn't completely destroyed.

linda


Carbon would take out the yellow, you probably have a bacterial or algal
bloom of some sort. Long term you need to find the coot cause, short term a
flocculent will help. I screwed up a while back and ended up with green
water. I doubled the filter pads (basically like thick scouring pads,
nothing fancy. I don't much like chemicals, but came across Acurel F (at a
Petco..bite my tongue). It works wonders. It is supposed to be all
natural, is slightly acidic, and looks like a black water extract. It will
turn the water yellow brown if you use too much.

My 55 was clear enough to see from one end to another in a couple of hours.
I rinsed my filters and got gobs of goop. Unfortunately clearing the
problems wasn't as easy, but after a week of reduced feedings things are
remaining clear. Now I use it when every I stir things up.

Years ago I had a 12" pleco and a slew of other fish in a 55 gallon tank.
The Pleco could generate enough crap, literally and figuratively, to make a
mess of the place in a day. The fact that I was feeding them large amounts
of live daphnia didn't help either. I had the same problem of removing more
water than I wanted. I dealt with it by stirring the gravel, waiting an
hour then vac-ing everything that settled out on the surface.

Bob



  #42   Report Post  
Old 20-04-2003, 06:56 AM
Tedd
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?


"linda mar" wrote in message
...
Dear experts..


snip

though far from an expert i can share my situation and see if there is
anything of relevance you (or someone else) can pull form it...

i have two main tanks, one 15 gal. tall and one standard 20 gal. both have
the same type of filtration systems (back of tank waterfall filters)
different substrates and different lighting. the 15 gal. has a sand
substrate while the 20 has large (1-1.5 cm) gravel sub. the 15 gal. receives
a great deal more natural light than the 20 gal. live plants do
exceptionally well in the 15, but not in the 20. the 15 has an Aqua-Glo 8 w.
12" bulb, the 20 has a Sylvania Enhanced 18" (no wattage). the water
parameters are the same in both tanks; 0 = ammonia, 0 = nitrite, 20ppm =
nitrate (odd to me considering one has plants and one doesnt)

the 15 gal. is almost always hazy while the 20 has always been crystal
clear.

i really dont know exactly what to infer from all this information, it could
be the substrate, the natural lighting, the artificial lighting, a
combination of all three or something else totally different. sorry i cant
be of any more help to you or offer any recomendations. /

best of luck!
tedd.


  #43   Report Post  
Old 20-04-2003, 06:56 AM
kush
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?

Hi, Linda. I'm uncomfortable in the role of "expert," but since I'm the
self-designated UGF/high pH-soft-water guy, what the hey...

The first impression I get is that you might be doing too many interventions
and too much cleaning. If the tank has only been up a couple of months (?),
you sure don't need to be vacuuming gravel. I only do mine every year or so
and only if I happen to be replanting a large area. Besides, Leigh and
others are going to scold you for wasting all that yummy mulm (after they
stop palpitating over the ugf). At any rate, I'd recommend just doing your
25% weekly-or-so water changes for a while and letting things get
established.

The big issue is the pH. Ammonium is not stable at pH much over 7 and in
really alkaline water will change into very-bad-for-your-fish ammonia. This
may mean that your tank isn't really cycled after all. Are you adding CO2?
If not, I (almost) guarantee that adding CO2 will eliminate your cloudy
water within 24 hours.

pH of 7.5 to 8 is not slightly alkaline. It is very alkaline. With low kH
(presumably) by formula your water contains little CO2. Supplementing with
CO2 is not going to be optional for you, even with low lighting. The
bogwood and plants will help to bring the pH down over time too.


linda mar wrote in message
...
Dear experts..

I've been having hazy water ever since the first day I put fish in the

tank,
with some dose of "Cycle" as recommende by LFS and the bottle. it's not
completely cloudy, but hazy.. just enough to be very useful to get some
depth perception photo between the foreground leaves and background

leaves..

I've finished cycling for several weeks, algae is under control, ammonia

and
nitrite=0 (still waiting to get my nitrate test kit). The water is

slightly
alkaline (pH somewhere between 7.5 and 8 depending on who tests it) and
relatively soft (never tested, but based on municipal water report dH~4 or
so), and is kept around 78F. I just bought the freshwater test kit, so
starting this water change cycle, I will be able to run a battery of test

to
monitor the water condition (low dH/gH has potential pH crash worries..)

Tank cycled using UGF using a relatively coarse pea-sized gravel about 2in
thick, powered by two power heads (aquaclear 201's). The power head

spouts
are tilted enough to cause some surface agitation (lots of ripples), but
does not use venturi. I have added a HOT power filter hoping to

supplement
mechanical filtering after the tank finished cycling (aquaclear200. two
foam blocks, no carbon) hoping it would help clear the water better (no

such
luck). Tank is moderately to heavily planted, and moderately stocked.

(the
cloudiness was there even when very lightly stocked and no plants, so.).

I
have some bogwoods in the tank (some tannin leeching, but that's ok.
Decided yellowish water by itself doesn't bother me.. just the haze)

Starting this weekend, I've decided to do some systematic cleaning over

the
next few weeks, to see if I can somehow get the water to clear up more. I
know hazy water doesn't hurt the fish, but it's just that I envy my

favorite
LFSs' crystal-clear tanks (some even have real plants, and they still look
very very clear. only murky tanks are when they're cleaning the tank, or

the
feeder fish tank..), and the fact that the other two smaller tanks we have
are very clear (eclipse hood). so, cloudy water=something not quite
optimal..

Here is the list I've come up with that I should try to address, and see

if
the water will clear up. I was hoping the experts on this group can point
me to other places to investigate (or just tell me to give up if the
following effort doesn't pan out):

1. water changes
I do 20%-25% water change every 2 weeks ever since the tank has cycled (I
target 15-20%, but seems to end up taking out more water than I intended
when using siphon-style gravel vac..). Obviously this in itself hasn't
helped much in clearing out water
2. gravel vac
I just bought the air-pump activated gravel vac, so I can do more thorough
vacumming (the siphon vac took out water too quickly). I hope to remove

as
much plant debris, and other detritus from the gravel and plants, without
malnutritioning the plants. (will be putting root tabs soon)
3. UGF maintenance
try to siphon out some of the gunk accumulating underneath the UGF plating
(use narrow tubing and shove it under the plate through the uplift tube
opening). Last time I got lots of brownish goo out... I guess the

substrate
is too coarse and letting lots of detrius get trapped under the plating,

oh
well.. next time i'll get something better)
3. plant cleaning
remove all deteriorating leaves on all stem plants, continue to vacuum out
crud that accumulates on fine-leaved plants (acting as a filter!)
4. foam filter on powerfilter
take out and clean (not used for biological filter yet) often. May be add

a
finer filter floss? (what size mesh? I see 50um or 100um particle traps)?
5. add aqua-clear type particle coagulator for more efficient mechanical
filtering.

are there other things I should look at to see how I can increase the

water
clarity without hurting the ecosystem? I assume normal gravel

vac/siphoning
under UGF plating won't hurt the beneficial bacteria. I won't clean the
power filter and UGF at the same time (will stagger cleaning timing) to
assure that the bacteria colony isn't completely destroyed.

linda




  #44   Report Post  
Old 20-04-2003, 06:56 AM
Gary Dawg
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?

"kush" wrote in message
...
Hi, Linda. I'm uncomfortable in the role of "expert," but since I'm the
self-designated UGF/high pH-soft-water guy, what the hey...

The first impression I get is that you might be doing too many

interventions
and too much cleaning. If the tank has only been up a couple of months

(?),
you sure don't need to be vacuuming gravel. I only do mine every year or

so
and only if I happen to be replanting a large area. Besides, Leigh and
others are going to scold you for wasting all that yummy mulm (after they
stop palpitating over the ugf). At any rate, I'd recommend just doing

your
25% weekly-or-so water changes for a while and letting things get
established.

snip

Kush,

I vacuum my gravel with a Python every Friday with a good water change on my
90 gallon Oscar/Pacu tank (two Oscars/one Pacu, I know I need a 150
gallon)... I have an UGF and vacuum weekly which results in a goodly amount
of nasty looking stuff being sucked out of the gravel. Can't imagine how bad
it would be in a month, never mind a year... I would think the bacteria is
microscopic and covering the rocks, etc. and that it doesn't need all that
waste product in the gravel.

My 30 gallon (small tropicals) has no UGF and a thin layer of gravel which I
also vacuum weekly.

Am I missing the boat here and am vacuming too much? Are you saying to just
do water changes?

-Gary


  #45   Report Post  
Old 20-04-2003, 06:56 AM
kush
 
Posts: n/a
Default effort in clearing up hazy water... will this do?

Linda, do a search on "biogenic decalcification." When you talk about
"dusty flake-like stuff" precipitating out of the water, I'm wondering
whether it's a product of your bacteria bloom or the insoluble minerals in
your water. Also, before you go to bed tonight, leave out a pail of tap
water so you can test the pH tomorrow after it has outgassed. I'm wondering
whether the pH is higher in your tank or your faucet. Post the results
tomorrow night. Regardless, I'm going to recommend injecting with CO2.

Don't obsess about clean gravel. Plants LIKE growing in fish poop. I've
had UGF systems running for many years that have only been occasionally,
partially cleaned. When I get down under the stand and look up at the
bottom of the (glass-bottomed) tank, I can see clear water flowing through
the root systems under the plates. You CAN scour your gravel every week
but, at this point, in the interest of getting your system settled into a
desirable equilibrium, I'd just let things be.

kush

linda mar wrote in message
...
Hi Kush,

Hi, Linda. I'm uncomfortable in the role of "expert," but since I'm the
self-designated UGF/high pH-soft-water guy, what the hey...


:-) I'll take any advice I can get! and at this point, most people on

the
group is more expert than I am, so.. :-)

The first impression I get is that you might be doing too many

interventions
and too much cleaning. If the tank has only been up a couple of months

(?),
you sure don't need to be vacuuming gravel. I only do mine every year

or
so

I don' t know about too many interventions, except for cutting dying
vegetation stirring up stuff, but when I look at the edge of the tank, and
on my milfoils, I can see LOTS of brown goop accumulating.. dusty
flake-like stuff.. something precipitating out from the water, that is
settling on everything inside the tank. I had a huge diatom infestation
during the initial tank cycling to a point I could not see through the
glass.. all of which otos did a marvelous job of cleaning.. but what goes
into the oto must come out, and I think much of the gunk on the gravel, I
think, is oto poop or what's left of it. I mean, when the otos were at

it,
their poops *covered* the surface of anything remotely horizontal, to a
point where there were no green showing on the poor anubias leaf

(completely
covered in oto poop. I should have taken a photo...).

the brown flaky stuff, the poor milfoil becomes covered in brown again in
minutes even when I shake them loose.. instead of settling to the gravel,
the brown stuff just gets re-attached to the leaves and suffocating the
plant (I think I killed off a few because of this)... the bigger-leaved
plants aren't as bad.. but milfoil isn't doing too well, since it's acting
like a strainer.

I haven't been vacuuming all that much, since the time I have before I hit
the 25% water extraction is pretty fast and doesn't give me enough time to
just get the obvious plant debris that gets stirred up, etc.. but haven't
done anything out of the ordinary in terms of tank maintenance.

and only if I happen to be replanting a large area. Besides, Leigh and


well.. I had to pull out few plants that didn't survive the transplant
shock... that made a huge mess.. does that count? :-)

others are going to scold you for wasting all that yummy mulm (after

they
stop palpitating over the ugf). At any rate, I'd recommend just doing

your

:-)

25% weekly-or-so water changes for a while and letting things get
established.


ok... but, don't I need to vacuum gravel if I don't want the UGF to fail?
(go anaerobic). I got lots of big-root plants (swords, etc.. I thought I
was only ordering two.. from trueaquariumplants..), and I keep hearing

that
the roots will clog the filter, so I need to be more diligent about

keeping
the substrate unclogged (at the expense of depriving the roots of food and
too much oxygen..)...

The big issue is the pH. Ammonium is not stable at pH much over 7 and

in
really alkaline water will change into very-bad-for-your-fish ammonia.

This
may mean that your tank isn't really cycled after all. Are you adding

CO2?
If not, I (almost) guarantee that adding CO2 will eliminate your cloudy
water within 24 hours.


my tap water is naturally soft.. and I think the pH is artificially made
high by the water treatment facility... I haven't had the chance to

measure
the pH straight out of the tap yet, but the water report says average pH

is
9.1 or so... so the high alkaline level is not really due to the fish,

but
because of the source water having high pH.. and is slowly coming down as
the water ages.

pH of 7.5 to 8 is not slightly alkaline. It is very alkaline. With low

kH

:-P right. logrithmic.. misspoke.. except for the otos, I've tried to
put in fish that can survive higher alkaline water... (and add "soft" and
"non-brackish" to that, and it becomes very limiting!)

(presumably) by formula your water contains little CO2. Supplementing

with
CO2 is not going to be optional for you, even with low lighting. The


does this mean Flourish Excel is a bad idea too? the tank has one 55W

CF..
(low-to-moderate brightness)

bogwood and plants will help to bring the pH down over time too.


I think it is bringing it down. since the tap is *supposedly* originally
high in pH, I just have to make sure I don't go without water change for

too
long (pH change shock caused by new/old water difference will be worse if

I
leave it be too long), or that was the advice i was given based on my

water
report (soft water, high pH tap)

thanks!
linda


linda mar wrote in message
...
Dear experts..

I've been having hazy water ever since the first day I put fish in the

tank,
with some dose of "Cycle" as recommende by LFS and the bottle. it's

not
completely cloudy, but hazy.. just enough to be very useful to get

some
depth perception photo between the foreground leaves and background

leaves..

I've finished cycling for several weeks, algae is under control,

ammonia
and
nitrite=0 (still waiting to get my nitrate test kit). The water is

slightly
alkaline (pH somewhere between 7.5 and 8 depending on who tests it)

and
relatively soft (never tested, but based on municipal water report

dH~4
or
so), and is kept around 78F. I just bought the freshwater test kit,

so
starting this water change cycle, I will be able to run a battery of

test
to
monitor the water condition (low dH/gH has potential pH crash

worries..)

Tank cycled using UGF using a relatively coarse pea-sized gravel about

2in
thick, powered by two power heads (aquaclear 201's). The power head

spouts
are tilted enough to cause some surface agitation (lots of ripples),

but
does not use venturi. I have added a HOT power filter hoping to

supplement
mechanical filtering after the tank finished cycling (aquaclear200.

two
foam blocks, no carbon) hoping it would help clear the water better

(no
such
luck). Tank is moderately to heavily planted, and moderately stocked.

(the
cloudiness was there even when very lightly stocked and no plants,

so.).
I
have some bogwoods in the tank (some tannin leeching, but that's ok.
Decided yellowish water by itself doesn't bother me.. just the haze)

Starting this weekend, I've decided to do some systematic cleaning

over
the
next few weeks, to see if I can somehow get the water to clear up

more.
I
know hazy water doesn't hurt the fish, but it's just that I envy my

favorite
LFSs' crystal-clear tanks (some even have real plants, and they still

look
very very clear. only murky tanks are when they're cleaning the tank,

or
the
feeder fish tank..), and the fact that the other two smaller tanks we

have
are very clear (eclipse hood). so, cloudy water=something not quite
optimal..

Here is the list I've come up with that I should try to address, and

see
if
the water will clear up. I was hoping the experts on this group can

point
me to other places to investigate (or just tell me to give up if the
following effort doesn't pan out):

1. water changes
I do 20%-25% water change every 2 weeks ever since the tank has cycled

(I
target 15-20%, but seems to end up taking out more water than I

intended
when using siphon-style gravel vac..). Obviously this in itself

hasn't
helped much in clearing out water
2. gravel vac
I just bought the air-pump activated gravel vac, so I can do more

thorough
vacumming (the siphon vac took out water too quickly). I hope to

remove
as
much plant debris, and other detritus from the gravel and plants,

without
malnutritioning the plants. (will be putting root tabs soon)
3. UGF maintenance
try to siphon out some of the gunk accumulating underneath the UGF

plating
(use narrow tubing and shove it under the plate through the uplift

tube
opening). Last time I got lots of brownish goo out... I guess the

substrate
is too coarse and letting lots of detrius get trapped under the

plating,
oh
well.. next time i'll get something better)
3. plant cleaning
remove all deteriorating leaves on all stem plants, continue to vacuum

out
crud that accumulates on fine-leaved plants (acting as a filter!)
4. foam filter on powerfilter
take out and clean (not used for biological filter yet) often. May be

add
a
finer filter floss? (what size mesh? I see 50um or 100um particle

traps)?
5. add aqua-clear type particle coagulator for more efficient

mechanical
filtering.

are there other things I should look at to see how I can increase the

water
clarity without hurting the ecosystem? I assume normal gravel

vac/siphoning
under UGF plating won't hurt the beneficial bacteria. I won't clean

the
power filter and UGF at the same time (will stagger cleaning timing)

to
assure that the bacteria colony isn't completely destroyed.

linda








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