Hello,

I saw a chart on a web page a while back that showed various plant
problems and the cause. I can't remember where it was now that I need
it!!

A lot of my plants have holes in the leaves. With the twisted vallis,
this often means that the leaves break off altogether. I imagine this is
a nutrient deficiency, but would like to confirm.

Tank is 48"x12"x15", has soft, slightly acidic water, pH around 6.5 with
DIY CO2, three 48" lights, regularly dosed with PMDD, medium fish load.

Any help appreciated.

--
Alan Silver
Please remove the "furryferret" if replying by e-mail

I saw a chart on a web page a while back that showed various plant
problems and the cause. I can't remember where it was now that I need
it!!

That would be Chuck's page:

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm

But I would look to the fish, first. Especially if you have loaches. They
like to bite holes in the leaves.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

In article , LeighMo
writes
I saw a chart on a web page a while back that showed various plant
problems and the cause. I can't remember where it was now that I need
it!!

That would be Chuck's page:

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_nutrient.htm

Thanx for the link, but that page doesn't mention my problem. A lot of
the plants have holes as the leaves grow. In the case of the
echinodorus, this means holes, in the case of the twisted vallis, this
means the leaves often break off completely. The nearest thing on his
page is pin-sized holes that slowly enlarge. Mine are bigger to start
with.

But I would look to the fish, first. Especially if you have loaches.
They like to bite holes in the leaves.

Fairly sure this isn't the problem. I've never seen any fish attacking
the leaves. It's also more of a recent problem. The only thing I can
think of is that I was using Tetra plant fertiliser liquid, but recently
started using PMDD (bought from someone who posted about it on this
group some time ago). That's why I wondered if it was a nutrient
deficiency. He said his recipe was from the FAQ.

Only other thought is that the bottle I use to store the PMDD liquid has
some white solids stuck to the bottom. This is probably one of the
ingredients that has settled. I always shake the bottle well before
dosing, but it could be that this ingredient is not in the liquid in
enough quantity. Could also be that I'm not using enough !! I'm a bit
nervous about putting too much on though.

Thanx for your reply. Any further help appreciated.

--
Alan Silver
Please remove the "furryferret" if replying by e-mail

Thanx for the link, but that page doesn't mention my problem. A lot of
the plants have holes as the leaves grow. In the case of the
echinodorus, this means holes, in the case of the twisted vallis, this
means the leaves often break off completely. The nearest thing on his
page is pin-sized holes that slowly enlarge. Mine are bigger to start
with.

Then I don't think it's a nutrient deficiency. I think something's eating the
leaves. Often, a fish will bite the nice, tender, baby leaves when they are
still small and/or curled up. As the leaves unfold and get bigger, the holes
get larger and/or seem to multiply.

Often, you don't see the culprit. They do it at night, or when you aren't
around. It took me months to catch my loaches at it, because every time I came
near the tank, they either when into hiding, or swam up to the top to beg for
food. I had to spy on them from around a corner to see them committing the
dirty deed. (And the same thing happens to my twisted Val as to yours: the
leaves break off. And i *know* it's the clown loaches.)

The only thing I can
think of is that I was using Tetra plant fertiliser liquid, but recently
started using PMDD (bought from someone who posted about it on this
group some time ago).

I don't think that's your problem. PMDD is a much more complete fertilizer than
the Tetra.

Only other thought is that the bottle I use to store the PMDD liquid has
some white solids stuck to the bottom.

I suppose it could be calcium. As Chuck's page notes, calcium defiency can
cause leaves to be deformed. But the Tetra doesn't have any calcium at all, so
I doubt this is the problem.

If you can, get some photos of the damage. And tell us what kind of fish you
have. My money's on the fish being the cause. (My loaches were well-behaved
for years before learning the plants were tasty, and other people have had the
same experience. So even if you haven't added any new fish recently, it could
still be them.)


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

In article , LeighMo
writes
And tell us what kind of fish you have. My money's on the fish being
the cause. (My loaches were well-behaved for years before learning the
plants were tasty, and other people have had the same experience. So
even if you haven't added any new fish recently, it could still be them.)

Fish list is the easiest :-

6 x harlequin rasboras
7 x glowlight tetras
4 x tiger barbs
2 x golden gourami
3 x synodontis velifer
1 x apple snail

All fish are fully grown, except for the synodontis where I'm not sure.
One is about 5" long, the other two are about 3" each. As I was under
the impression that these only reached about 4" and they have grown
considerably since we got them (couple of months), I'm not sure if they
actually are s.velifer or a similar.

Does that help ? Thanx for the reply.

--
Alan Silver
Please remove the "furryferret" if replying by e-mail

6 x harlequin rasboras
7 x glowlight tetras
4 x tiger barbs
2 x golden gourami
3 x synodontis velifer
1 x apple snail

Some people report that they have trouble with tiger barbs and gouramis eating
plants.

And are you sure the apple snail is of the non-plant eating variety?

How long has the tank been set up, BTW?


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

In article , LeighMo
writes
6 x harlequin rasboras
7 x glowlight tetras
4 x tiger barbs
2 x golden gourami
3 x synodontis velifer
1 x apple snail

Some people report that they have trouble with tiger barbs and gouramis
eating plants.

Really ? Never heard that. Considering the size of the gouramis, they
could eat a fair bit of leaf each !!

Never seen them taking any notice of the plants though. I can understand
that loaches and snails work more at night, but my gouramis and tigers
seem to sleep once the lights go out (sneaked up on them a few times
!!).

And are you sure the apple snail is of the non-plant eating variety?

Only as sure as you can ever be. Never seen it doing anything that
looked like eating plants. It tends to be fairly active, even in the
day, but always seems to be more interested in algae or dead leaves
(which pleases me).

How long has the tank been set up, BTW?

Over a year. Can't remember exactly. The tank was changed over a couple
of times before we settled on this combination of fish, plants, etc. I
think it's 12-18 months since finalised it.

If it is the fish or snail, any idea what I can do about it ? The fish
get fed plenty, although I don't tend to put vegetables in the tank
much. Have done once or twice, but they never seemed *that*interested in
them.

Thanx for the reply.

--
Alan Silver
Please remove the "furryferret" if replying by e-mail

Only as sure as you can ever be. Never seen it doing anything that
looked like eating plants. It tends to be fairly active, even in the
day, but always seems to be more interested in algae or dead leaves
(which pleases me).

Is there a possibility that the leaves with holes in them are dead or dying?

And do the holes appear in new or old leaves, or both?

If it is the fish or snail, any idea what I can do about it ? The fish
get fed plenty, although I don't tend to put vegetables in the tank
much. Have done once or twice, but they never seemed *that*interested in
them.

If something's eating your plants, putting veggies in the tank will probably
help. A A slice of cucumber, zucchini (courgette, I think you call it over
there), or apple. Frozen peas (peel the skin off first). A leaf of romaine
lettuce. Canned green beans (low salt, if possible). I would expect your
snail, at least, to be interested in these foods.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

LeighMo wrote in message ...

Is there a possibility that the leaves with holes in them
are dead or dying?

And do the holes appear in new or old leaves, or both?

Large sections of leaves being gone would tend to point toward the Apple
Snails, but the lack of extensive damage coupled with the length of time
these snails have been present tells me to look elsewhere.

Has anyone noticed that his symptoms point toward a potassium deficiency?
Are there any distorted leaves among the broad-leafed plants to go along
with those problems already described?...


--
-Y-

Nestor 10

".chkr" is for mail-bots

Has anyone noticed that his symptoms point toward a potassium deficiency?

He looked on Chuck's page, and said that he didn't think it was K, because the
holes aren't pinhole-sized -- even the smallest is much larger than that.

I asked him if the holes are in old leaves, new leaves, or both. That should
help determine if it's K or not.

Are there any distorted leaves among the broad-leafed plants to go along
with those problems already described?...

He did say that his twisted Val leaves broke off altogether, because of the
damage.

I'd sure like to see a picture of the damage.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

I get damage that sounds very much like that, including the breaking vals.
I've been attributing it to softened water/calcium deficiency and two poorly
trained pl*cos.

LeighMo wrote in message
...
Has anyone noticed that his symptoms point toward a potassium deficiency?

He looked on Chuck's page, and said that he didn't think it was K, because
the
holes aren't pinhole-sized -- even the smallest is much larger than that.

I asked him if the holes are in old leaves, new leaves, or both. That
should
help determine if it's K or not.

Are there any distorted leaves among the broad-leafed plants to go along
with those problems already described?...

He did say that his twisted Val leaves broke off altogether, because of
the
damage.

I'd sure like to see a picture of the damage.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

I get damage that sounds very much like that, including the breaking vals.
I've been attributing it to softened water/calcium deficiency and two poorly
trained pl*cos.

I get damage like that, too, and it's definitely my darling, evil clown
loaches.

I did wonder about calcium, but his tank has been set up for a long time, and
he never had a problem before. I would expect a calcium deficiency to show up
sooner. He swtiched from Tetra, which doesn't have calcium, to PMDD, which
does, so if anything, his calcium levels should be better now, not worse.




Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

In article , Nestor 10
writes
Are there any distorted leaves among the broad-leafed plants to go along
with those problems already described?...

No. All plants look very healthy, except for the holes in the
echinodorus leaves (old and new as far as I can see) and leaves broken
off the twisted vallis - which I assume is a result of the same problem.

Thanx for the reply.

--
Alan Silver
Please remove the "furryferret" if replying by e-mail

In article , LeighMo
writes
I asked him if the holes are in old leaves, new leaves, or both. That should
help determine if it's K or not.

Sorry, forgot to reply to that bit !! The holes seem to be in both old
and new.

I'd sure like to see a picture of the damage.

Trouble is finding a digital camera (my normal camera i only a cheap
one, wouldn't be able to get the detail).

The twisted vallis leaves just look like if you put your hand in there
and broke off a leaf with your hand. The echinodorus ones are harder to
describe. Maybe I'll try pulling one out and scanning it !! Don't know
how well that would work, but it might come out.

pause for wet hands and holy leaves

Well, that worked well !! I'll e-mail the picture to you (it's only 38K,
nothing to worry about).

--
Alan Silver
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In article , kush
writes
I get damage that sounds very much like that, including the breaking
vals. I've been attributing it to softened water/calcium deficiency and
two poorly trained pl*cos.

Well, I've got soft water. Don't know about the calcium though. How
would I tell?

Alan

--
Alan Silver
Please remove the "furryferret" if replying by e-mail