LeighMo wrote:
And I think that's exactly what you've done: wasted money. g Bio-spira

The jury is still out on this one.

tank. Especially if it's your own tank. Bio-spira is just an artificial
version of mulm from an established tank. A very expensive artificial version.

It's not artificial at all! It's actual, live bacteria. Nothing artificial
about it. Have you read their papers?


--
Victor M. Martinez

http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv

It's not artificial at all! It's actual, live bacteria. Nothing artificial
about it. Have you read their papers?

Yes, I've read their papers.

But there's no way I would spend money on this stuff. It's just a bottled
version of mulm from an established tank. There's no way it can have the
natural variety and diversity of the bacteria from a real tank.

There's some evidence that different species of bacteria serve as biological
filters in fishtanks, depending on water parameters such as hardness, pH,
temperature, etc. That's why mulm from a local tank, especially your own, is
best, since presumably the water conditions would be similar.

If I didn't have an established tank handy, I might shell out for something
like Bio-spira. But why would I, when I have all the bacteria I need, free in
my own tank? It's not like Bio-spira is some kind of super-powered bacteria.
At best, it's just like the stuff you already have in your established tank.
Convenient, if you don't have the real thing, but not better.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

If Victor monitors his experiment closely, he'll be able to react with water
changes should the need arise. And if he doesn't need to, it's one
more anecdotal data point for the rest of us.

True, but you can't declare that 'it's working fine' on day 3 or 4 or a
cycle.

It's not artificial at all! It's actual, live bacteria. Nothing artificial
about it. Have you read their papers?

Yes, I've read their papers.

And all these papers are is research on this bacteria. None of them are
tests of or proof of this product. The testimonials are nice, but not
facts. It's one thing to discover the action of and organism and another
to process it in a packet and have it sit on a shelf for a year. My
question is, what is keeping the 'actual live bacteria' alive?

Now if you want to test it, that's great. But you can't conclude that
it's working until you have given it enough time to work through a
traditional cycle timeframe. I certainly wouldn't potentially risk fish
and shrimp on it either.

Sherry Michael Weller wrote:

but you can't declare that 'it's working fine' on day 3 or
4 or a cycle.

True, it's not conclusive proof, but rather just another data point.
He's presenting nothing except his experience thus far, which is clear
from his post. At this point, it is "working fine". That may change
later - time will tell.

I for one am grateful to Victor for posting his results as he tries
this product. Especially since he's trying it with a relatively large
fish load.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

"Victor M. Martinez" wrote in message
...
ruprecte wrote:
Ive had my 30g for one month now, with the aid of bio spira, I'd agree
with
Toni that it helped very much in the earlier ammonia stage but once
nitrite
hit there was no evidence of its help, daily water changes (20-30%)
was what

Hmmmm.... this might be due to the fact that there is no nitrite to
begin
with, so the bacteria that metabolizes it dies from starvation before
the
ammonia-metabolizing bacteria have a chance to establish themselves?
If that's the case, then a new dose of bio-spira should fix that.
I'll be on the lookout.

I had to do on approx. days 8-14. Ive read (from Net Max I think) that
the
bacteria in bio spira doesnt have a "born on date" hence even keeping
the

The comment didn't come from me. I've no hands-on experience with
Bio-spira so I'm keeping my mouth closed and ears open ;~) Interesting
comments regarding it supplying the nitrosomonas but being less effective
with the nitrite oxidizing bacteria. I've observed this with Cycle as
well. Adding another dosage during the nitrite ramp up sounds like an
optimal idea. Keep us appraised.

NetMax

I believe it does have an expiration date.

--
Victor M. Martinez

http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv

LeighMo wrote:
And I think that's exactly what you've done: wasted money. g Bio-spira
seems to be a better product than Cycle, but still, if you have an
already-established tank, you already have the best way to jump start a cycle.

IMO, Cycle is worse than useless as it doesn't work, yet might lead
someone to think they're safe (until they find the floaters). I used it
with a cycling tank and got tremendous ammonia and nitrite spikes.
Fortunately I tested regularly.

James

IMO, Cycle is worse than useless as it doesn't work, yet might lead
someone to think they're safe (until they find the floaters).

I agree. Leaving aside the argument about whether or not Cycle contains the
correct bacteria, there's little or no live bacteria at all in the average
bottle of Cycle.

And yet, some people swear it works, just as some people swear Bio-Spira works.
(Does the "placebo effect" apply to fishtanks?) That's why I'm skeptical of
testimonials.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Take tests daily for a few days and keep us posted on the test results.
I'm interested in seeing if this stuff really works.
You're not using anything like ammo-lock or amquel etc are you?

"Victor M. Martinez" wrote in message
...
I just started a new 20 gallon tank and used Bio-spira to seed with
bacteria. I setup the tank Saturday and added fish (5 inches worth) and
Bio-spira on Sunday. On Monday I added another 6 inches worth of fish plus
a few MTS and ghost shrimp. My ammonia indicator hasn't shown a trace of
ammonia yet! The tank also has a few plants, but these are brand new, so I
don't think they're growing enough to consume all the waste.

Victor M. Martinez

http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv

Ammo lock will still give a positive ammonia reading when used.

Did not know that...good to know. Thanks

"Victor M. Martinez" wrote:
Fish start producing waste immediately, it should be evident within 24
hours.

Not usually. The waste is deluted with 20 gallons of water. I've kept
fish in plastic shoeboxes for a week with no water changes and no
bacterial colony and have minimal ammonia readings. The waste needs time
to build up to measuarble amounts.

I would have waited a month to add more than a few fish and
the shrimp.

That would defeat the purpose of using this product in the first place.

All I'm saying is that I would have waited to be completely sure the
cycle is over before adding even more fish. Even if you don't have any
ammonia readings, it will certainly take more than a few days for the
nitrite to build up. IMO, a little patience is best then dead fish and
shrimp.

I don't trust such 'products'. If your really in a hurry and jump start,
two weeks with aged filter media and a small fish load is all I need to
cycle a tank.

--
Sherry Michael Weller
SAS Distributed Desktop Support
www.psych.upenn.edu/~sherrym

Sherry Michael Weller wrote:
Not usually. The waste is deluted with 20 gallons of water. I've kept

12 inches of fish plus shrimp should produce enough waste in 20 gallons of
water. This is day 4 and still no ammonia readings.

All I'm saying is that I would have waited to be completely sure the
cycle is over before adding even more fish. Even if you don't have any

And what I'm saying is that this product is supposed to avoid cycling
altogether. That is the point of it and all its claims. If I'm going to
do a traditional cycling why would I waste money on this?

I don't trust such 'products'. If your really in a hurry and jump start,

Well, I am a scientist and I'm always willing to try new technologies. This
one seems to be particularly good. Have you seen their website? They have
good scientific literature references and testimonials from people in charge
of large fish tanks (public aquariums, etc.)

--
Victor M. Martinez

http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv

Sherry Michael Weller wrote:

I don't trust such 'products'.

Neither do most of us, I expect. However, Bio-Spira has a fair amount
of anecdotal support that indicates it actually does work. If Victor
monitors his experiment closely, he'll be able to react with water
changes should the need arise. And if he doesn't need to, it's one
more anecdotal data point for the rest of us.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

"Toni" wrote in message
thlink.net...

"Victor M. Martinez" wrote in message
...
I just started a new 20 gallon tank and used Bio-spira to seed with
bacteria. I setup the tank Saturday and added fish (5 inches worth) and
Bio-spira on Sunday. On Monday I added another 6 inches worth of fish
plus
a few MTS and ghost shrimp. My ammonia indicator hasn't shown a trace of
ammonia yet! The tank also has a few plants, but these are brand new, so
I
don't think they're growing enough to consume all the waste.



Please continue testing daily.
I recently set up a 90g using Bio-Spira and a fairly (ok- a *really*)
large
fish load. The product handled the ammonia stage really well, but dropped
the ball when the nitrites began spiking.
In my own experience days 7 through 11 were the worst- had I not still
been
testing daily I would have missed the spike.
I did daily water changes on those days ( I had to do it twice on day 9- I
keep really good notes) and all went well. The tank was completely cycled
by
the 12th day.

Bio-Spira proved to be a big help but is not a miracle.
Get your water buckets ready.

--
Toni
http://www.cearbhaill.com/aquarium

Ive had my 30g for one month now, with the aid of bio spira, I'd agree with
Toni that it helped very much in the earlier ammonia stage but once nitrite
hit there was no evidence of its help, daily water changes (20-30%) was what
I had to do on approx. days 8-14. Ive read (from Net Max I think) that the
bacteria in bio spira doesnt have a "born on date" hence even keeping the
product frozen will not save all of it after some time, so in turn its
relatively easy to drop thirteen bucks on a packet of bio spira and not get
that much, if any, bang for your buck.-Brian

If Victor monitors his experiment closely, he'll be able to react with water
changes should the need arise. And if he doesn't need to, it's one
more anecdotal data point for the rest of us.

True, but you can't declare that 'it's working fine' on day 3 or 4 or a
cycle.