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Old 31-05-2003, 02:20 PM
Victor M. Martinez
 
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Default Bio-spira report, Day 6

For those of you skeptics:

Ammonia: undetectable
Nitrite: 1 mg/l
Nitrate: 20 mg/l

Why, nitrates in less than one week? Pretty darn amazing, isn't it?

Victor M. Martinez

http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv



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Old 31-05-2003, 03:20 PM
Donald Kerns
 
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Default Bio-spira report, Day 6

Victor M. Martinez wrote:

For those of you skeptics:

Ammonia: undetectable
Nitrite: 1 mg/l
Nitrate: 20 mg/l

Why, nitrates in less than one week? Pretty darn amazing, isn't it?


What test kits are you using for NO2 and NO3?

My first BIO-Spira fishless cycle test data can be found here...

http://www.kernsanalysis.com/fish/cycletest.html

-Donald
--
"When you've lost your ability to laugh, you've lost your ability to
think straight." -To Inherit the Wind
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Old 01-06-2003, 12:44 AM
LeighMo
 
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Default Bio-spira report, Day 6

Why, nitrates in less than one week? Pretty darn amazing, isn't it?

You can get the same results with mulm from an established tank -- for a lot
less money.

Have you read Donald's page? He got similar results, but he suspected it was
due to a flaw in the nitrate test kit.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/
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Old 01-06-2003, 03:32 PM
Victor M. Martinez
 
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Default Bio-spira report, Day 6

LeighMo wrote:
You can get the same results with mulm from an established tank -- for a lot
less money.


That's not the point, now is it? The point is whether or not bio-spira works
as advertised. I think it does. To be honest with you, I have no idea how
much it cost in the first place, I didn't look.

Have you read Donald's page? He got similar results, but he suspected it was
due to a flaw in the nitrate test kit.


His results are significantly different, actually, and most of his tests
are labeled "suspect" due to a heater failure.

--
Victor M. Martinez

http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv

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Old 01-06-2003, 06:44 PM
LeighMo
 
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Default Bio-spira report, Day 6

You can get the same results with mulm from an established tank -- for a lot
less money.


That's not the point, now is it? The point is whether or not bio-spira works
as advertised. I think it does.


I'd be curious as to whether it works at all, but no, to me, that's not the
point. Or at least, not the only one. To justify the price, it would have to
work faster and better than the usual ways of cycling a tank.

To be honest with you, I have no idea how
much it cost in the first place, I didn't look.


It's something like $10 or $15 a bottle, I think.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/


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Old 01-06-2003, 11:20 PM
Victor M. Martinez
 
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Default Bio-spira report, Day 6

LeighMo wrote:
point. Or at least, not the only one. To justify the price, it would have to
work faster and better than the usual ways of cycling a tank.


What is the "usual way" to cycle a tank? Start with a few hardy fish and
wait for a month? To justify its price it just needs to provide enough
convenience to people willing to pay for it. If it's going to allow a new
person to start a tank *full* of fish in one week instead of 4-8 weeks, I'd
say it's worth the $13 (I just checked).
Nobody is forcing you to use this product, why are you so intent on denying
its potential benefits and the anecdotal evidence I've collected?

BTW, day 7 and no ammonia, very little nitrites and nitrates.

--
Victor M. Martinez

http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv

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Old 02-06-2003, 06:08 AM
LeighMo
 
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Default Bio-spira report, Day 6

What is the "usual way" to cycle a tank? Start with a few hardy fish and
wait for a month?


No way, Jose. If it's a high tech planted tank, I'd use Chuck's method.
Otherwise, I'd use fishless cycling, preferably spiked with mulm from an
established tank. You can have the tank fully cycled in under a week. To the
point where you can add the full fish load all at once.

To justify its price it just needs to provide enough
convenience to people willing to pay for it. If it's going to allow a new
person to start a tank *full* of fish in one week instead of 4-8 weeks, I'd
say it's worth the $13 (I just checked).


But like I said, you can do the same with fishless cycling and mulm from an
established tank.

Nobody is forcing you to use this product, why are you so intent on denying
its potential benefits and the anecdotal evidence I've collected?


I could see potential benefits. For an emergency, say, or for someone who
doesn't have established tanks. But I just don't see any point in spending
money for this stuff if you have an established tank to provide bacteria. And
I'm saying so here, just like you're saying the opposite. I know I'm not going
to convince you, but you and I aren't the only people reading this thread.

And while anecdotal evidence is interesting, in this particular case, it
doesn't mean anything. I've searched through Deja, and as many people reported
problems as said it worked. That's exactly what happened with Cycle -- some
people said it was great, others said it was worse than useless. I think the
scientific evidence on Cycle is now pretty strongly pointing to the "useless"
side of the scale, yet people still buy it and claim it works.

I'd like to see a real scientific test on Bio-Spira, just for curiosity's sake.
Is there really any live bacteria in the bottle? And if so, does it actually
speed cycling?

BTW, day 7 and no ammonia, very little nitrites and nitrates.


Keep measuring. The people who reported trouble didn't have problems until
about the two week point.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/
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Old 02-06-2003, 12:44 PM
LeighMo
 
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Default Bio-spira report, Day 6

Speaking as someone who is reading it, I'm very interested in the
results of Victor's testing. Far more so than in any holy war about
the subject.


I am, too. And I don't consider this a holy war. It's just normal Usenet
discussion.

Look back at the thread. All I said was

"I'd be curious as to whether it works at all, but no, to me, that's not the
point. Or at least, not the only one. To justify the price, it would have to
work faster and better than the usual ways of cycling a tank."

Which I think was a valid point to make to anyone who might be considering
using this stuff, and perfectly civil. Hardly a call for jihad. g

I'd like to see side-by-side comparisons of perhaps three tanks, all
set up identically, with the same fish load.


Nah, a true test would be with straight ammonia. The same amount in each tank.
And repeated more than once, by different researchers.

What do you think of Donald's experiment? I found it very interesting, even if
equipment failure threw in an element of uncertainty. If I'm reading the graph
correctly, he got nitrate readings within a few days, but nitrite continued to
rise after that, and didn't go down to zero until 30 days. He thinks nitrate
test kits actually measure nitrite, too, or something like that. (And the
graph curves are suspiciously similar. You'd expect to see nitrate going up
while nitrite goes down, not both moving in tandem.)


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/
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Old 02-06-2003, 04:08 PM
Victor M. Martinez
 
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Default Bio-spira report, Day 6

LeighMo wrote:
No way, Jose. If it's a high tech planted tank, I'd use Chuck's method.


How many new hobbists do you think would go that way? Not many I guess.

Otherwise, I'd use fishless cycling, preferably spiked with mulm from an
established tank. You can have the tank fully cycled in under a week. To the
point where you can add the full fish load all at once.


Fishless cycling doesn't take a week, at least not according to all the
sources I've seen, it takes at least 2 weeks. Again, that's two weeks more
than what Biospira promises and that so far, has proven true for me.

doesn't have established tanks. But I just don't see any point in spending
money for this stuff if you have an established tank to provide bacteria. And


Again, nobody is forcing you to spend money. Why are you so concerned about
how I spend my money?

I'm saying so here, just like you're saying the opposite. I know I'm not going
to convince you, but you and I aren't the only people reading this thread.


And I'm not trying to convince anybody about anything. I am merely reporting
the successes I've observed using this product. Folks out there are free to
make their own choices, regardless of what you and I say.

And while anecdotal evidence is interesting, in this particular case, it
doesn't mean anything.


It sure does. It means that for me, biospira has worked as advertised. It means
that if I ever start a new tank, I might forgo the work of moving plants and
mulm and just use this product. It means that if somebody asks me about it,
I will recommend it saying it has worked for me in the past.

people said it was great, others said it was worse than useless. I think the
scientific evidence on Cycle is now pretty strongly pointing to the "useless"
side of the scale, yet people still buy it and claim it works.


Actually, I have yet to see any scientific evidence on Cycle's effectiveness
(or ineffectiveness). All there is is a lot of anecdotal evidence, which
according to you doesn't mean anything.

Keep measuring. The people who reported trouble didn't have problems until
about the two week point.


I will, and I will keep posting my resutls. I am done, however, arguing with
you. I am surpised at your attitude, you've always seemed to be helpful and
not bent on pursuing your dogmas and spreading the One and Only Truth.

Cheers.

--
Victor M. Martinez

http://www.che.utexas.edu/~martiv



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Old 03-06-2003, 12:32 AM
LeighMo
 
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Default Bio-spira report, Day 6

Fishless cycling doesn't take a week, at least not according to all the
sources I've seen, it takes at least 2 weeks.


It can be as fast as three days, with high amounts of ammonia and a lot of mulm
from an established tank.

Again, that's two weeks more
than what Biospira promises and that so far, has proven true for me.


I don't think I'd trust Bio-spira as much as fishless cycling. I mean, you
know when the cycling is over with fishless cycling. You see the spikes, and
you see them go to zero. With Bio-spira, you don't see any spikes (if it's
working as advertised), and I'd be nervously waiting for the other shoe to drop
for at least a couple of weeks.

Again, nobody is forcing you to spend money. Why are you so concerned about
how I spend my money?


I'm not. Clearly, it's already to late for you. You've spent the money
already. g But I do like to save people money, when it's possible. That's
why I regularly post reviews of products and companies to this forum. Good and
bad. And I appreciate it when other people do the same, as you are with this
product.

And I'm not trying to convince anybody about anything. I am merely reporting
the successes I've observed using this product. Folks out there are free to
make their own choices, regardless of what you and I say.


Exactly. So why are you getting so upset at what I'm saying?

Actually, I have yet to see any scientific evidence on Cycle's effectiveness
(or ineffectiveness).


There's plenty...on the Marineland site. They claim that Cycle has the wrong
bacteria in it. And even though they obviously have an agenda in posting it,
it is a real, peer-reviewed, scientific paper.

I will, and I will keep posting my resutls.


Good.

I am done, however, arguing with
you. I am surpised at your attitude, you've always seemed to be helpful and
not bent on pursuing your dogmas and spreading the One and Only Truth.


I think I'm still being helpful. Honestly, I don't understand what I've said
that you find so upsetting.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/


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