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Old 18-06-2003, 07:56 AM
Greg G.
 
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Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.


I just don't know what to do anymore.
I am sick of pulling 3 cups of thread/beard algae a week from my tank.
Does anyone have a clue as to what I can do to solve this problem?

75 gallon planted tank.

pH - 6.8
kH - 4.5
gH - 5
Temp - 77

DIY CO2 Injection through a motorized homemade diffuser.

4 x Philips T32 850T8 bulbs for 10 hours a day in homemade hood with
reflector. (12,000 lumens) (Was 12 hours, but I cut back to try to
reduce algae growth.)

Variety of plants, including hairgrass, various crypts, a piece of
hornwort, clumps of bacapa & loosetrife, several different swords,
All plant growth is good, although the anubias was slightly yellowing
so I ammended one time with a small amount of SeaChem Fe.

When the tank was first set up, everything was fine, but for the past
6 months, I just can't keep the algae under control.

I've added SAE's, mollies, platies, and otto's but they can't keep up
with the massive growth. Sometimes, it's so bad it clogs the intake
on the CO2 diffusion pump.

Total fish load is light - 5 cardinal tetras, 5 head & tail lights, 2
adult platies, 3 juvenile platies, 1 adult molly, one juvenile molly,
3 ottocinclus, 2 SAEs, 1 corydoras julii and one black loach.
(Yea, I know - they want some company...)

Added fertilizers (SeaChem Flourish), stopped adding ferts, etc.
I've done repeated weekly 50% water changes.
The only additions I have made to the past few water changes has been
epsom salts, baking soda, and calcium carbonate to harden the water.
Nothing I do even slows the proliferation.

When I lived in Florida, I kept reefs tanks. When I began using R.O.
water, my problems with algae disappeared. Could it be nasty tap
water causing this?

I started this planted tank because I thought it would be simpler than
a reef tank. HA! That has NOT been my experience...

Any Ideas?

Greg


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Old 18-06-2003, 10:20 AM
Ron Nelson
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

You might look at what's in your water. Have you tested your water from the
tap? Also I had a fair amount of algae in my 75 with DIY CO2 but once I made
the switch to pressurized so I could raise and maintain consistent CO2
levels, and got my ferts balanced out the algae has almost totally
disappeared. Now all I get is a little dusting on the front glass that I
scrape off weekly before my water changes.

HTH
Ron

"Greg G." wrote in message
...

I just don't know what to do anymore.
I am sick of pulling 3 cups of thread/beard algae a week from my tank.
Does anyone have a clue as to what I can do to solve this problem?

75 gallon planted tank.

pH - 6.8
kH - 4.5
gH - 5
Temp - 77

DIY CO2 Injection through a motorized homemade diffuser.

4 x Philips T32 850T8 bulbs for 10 hours a day in homemade hood with
reflector. (12,000 lumens) (Was 12 hours, but I cut back to try to
reduce algae growth.)

Variety of plants, including hairgrass, various crypts, a piece of
hornwort, clumps of bacapa & loosetrife, several different swords,
All plant growth is good, although the anubias was slightly yellowing
so I ammended one time with a small amount of SeaChem Fe.

When the tank was first set up, everything was fine, but for the past
6 months, I just can't keep the algae under control.

I've added SAE's, mollies, platies, and otto's but they can't keep up
with the massive growth. Sometimes, it's so bad it clogs the intake
on the CO2 diffusion pump.

Total fish load is light - 5 cardinal tetras, 5 head & tail lights, 2
adult platies, 3 juvenile platies, 1 adult molly, one juvenile molly,
3 ottocinclus, 2 SAEs, 1 corydoras julii and one black loach.
(Yea, I know - they want some company...)

Added fertilizers (SeaChem Flourish), stopped adding ferts, etc.
I've done repeated weekly 50% water changes.
The only additions I have made to the past few water changes has been
epsom salts, baking soda, and calcium carbonate to harden the water.
Nothing I do even slows the proliferation.

When I lived in Florida, I kept reefs tanks. When I began using R.O.
water, my problems with algae disappeared. Could it be nasty tap
water causing this?

I started this planted tank because I thought it would be simpler than
a reef tank. HA! That has NOT been my experience...

Any Ideas?

Greg



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Old 18-06-2003, 11:20 AM
donovan n
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

Could it be that your nitrogen levels are low due to the low fish load?


--donovan


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Old 18-06-2003, 04:32 PM
Greg G.
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 02:04:34 -0600, "Ron Nelson"
wrote:

You might look at what's in your water. Have you tested your water from the
tap? Also I had a fair amount of algae in my 75 with DIY CO2 but once I made
the switch to pressurized so I could raise and maintain consistent CO2
levels, and got my ferts balanced out the algae has almost totally
disappeared. Now all I get is a little dusting on the front glass that I
scrape off weekly before my water changes.

HTH
Ron


I have tested the tap water as far as general parameters are
concerned, pH, hardness, nitrites, etc. It is impossible for me to
test things like phosphate levels, organic debris, ecoli, etc. I
don't have a testing lab, just the various and sundry aquarium test
kits. I live in a large metro area which makes me question the water
supply. The rivers have gone from pristine clean to smelly and
polluted in the past 10 years because of overzealous development and
explosive population growth. I guess I should try an R.O unit, but I
am not fond of the thought of more paraphernalia and drums of water
sitting around the house...

I considered adding a little Nitrogen (potassium nitrate), but can't
find it locally. I guess another trip downtown for a bottle of
SeaChem Nitrogen would be worth a shot... the algae couldn't get much
worse than it is...

Due to the moderate lighting, I have not considered adding any macro
nutrients until now.

As for the DIY CO2, it performs well, it is consistent and maintains
the CO2 level at or above target amounts. I don't feel that this is
the problem - as long as the bottles get changed out on time.

I have noticed that the plant pearling is reduced from what it was -
which leads me to believe that there is a macro-suppliment deficiency.

But which one? I'm not about to buy a Hatch Lab for testing.
Is there a simple routine for determining these things?

Thanks,
Greg

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Old 18-06-2003, 05:44 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...



I agree with Ron, CO2 is very critical. DIY CO2 folks often report the
lion's share of the algae problems.

I just don't know what to do anymore.
I am sick of pulling 3 cups of thread/beard algae a week from my tank.
Does anyone have a clue as to what I can do to solve this problem?


Sure, grow the plants well.

Tap water is fine assuming this GH/KH are the same.

Added fertilizers (SeaChem Flourish), stopped adding ferts, etc.


Do you think reduced nutrients and poor CO2 will help your plants to
grow not?

I've done repeated weekly 50% water changes.


This is good. More on this later.

The only additions I have made to the past few water changes has been
epsom salts, baking soda, and calcium carbonate to harden the water.
Nothing I do even slows the proliferation.


Well small algae have less requirements for nutrtients than plants,
most algae can use the bicarbonate, the KH(HCO3) in your water for a
crabon source. The levels of HCO3 needed for good growth are very
small as well.

You are noit going to beat algae by limitation and also keep plants.
It does not work.

When I lived in Florida, I kept reefs tanks. When I began using R.O.
water, my problems with algae disappeared. Could it be nasty tap
water causing this?


No.

I started this planted tank because I thought it would be simpler than
a reef tank. HA! That has NOT been my experience...


It's different. I think SW tends to easier but it cost more. Reef's
are critter based, this plant based.

Any Ideas?


Keep doing the 50% weekly water changes.
Trim/prune off all the algae.
Add enough CO2!!!!
Get a gas tank for this sized tank. Lock your KH in around 4 and add
enough CO2 gas to KEEP your CO2 ALL DAY LONG at 6.6. Check in the AM
and the PM. Make sure you have 20-30ppm at all times when the lights
are on.
Good substrate helps.
You have ther herbivores.

Once you do this, right after a big pruning and water change, add the
following:
1/2 teaspoon K2SO4
1/2 teaspoon KNO3
1/16-1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4
15mls of Flourish

Add 4 days later:
1/2 teaspoon KNO3
1/16th KH2PO4
15mls Flourish

7th day:
Water change pruning etc.

Once your tank gets goign well, you can add another dose similar to
the 4 day dose. So the water change dose, plus 2 more doses till the
next water change.

This will allow you to have a good range of nutrient concentrations
since you are dosing regularly but no excess since you do weekly 50%
water changes.

Main thing is CO2 and checking for that.
You do the above routine and your plants will improve their growth.

When the plants are not growing, the algae will.
So grow the plants well.

Regards,
Tom Barr



Greg



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Old 18-06-2003, 09:44 PM
Greg G.
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

On 18 Jun 2003 09:43:51 -0700,
) wrote:

massive snippage interspersed

Thanks for the expert input. The fertilizer schedule seems to be what
I'm looking for at the moment..

I agree with Ron, CO2 is very critical. DIY CO2 folks often report the
lion's share of the algae problems.


I monitor the CO2 twice a day, it never falls below ~21ppm:

kH of 4.5
pH of 6.8 to 6.6, depending on the age of the mix.
(~21-34 ppm)

I built a 22" columnar diffuser powered by a small AS Mini-Jet 600.
None of the generated CO2 goes to waste. It is trapped until
diffused. Until this, I could not keep the CO2 levels high enough.
Now I have to intermittently run an air stone to throw off excess when
the CO2 mix is at it's peak. That is why I have neglected to consider
tanked CO2. This has been working fine. Also, the moderate light
levels seemed to negate the expense of elaborate CO2 systems.
(And I'm cheap... ;-) )

I even add small amounts to Club Soda to the change water to maintain
this pH absolutely.

Sure, grow the plants well.


They grow, but perhaps not fast enough.
The water sprite grows a new 'frond' almost every day...
And the next day, it has algae growing from it.

I remove a large quantity of plant growth with each cleaning and toss
it away as there is no room for it in the tank. The chain sword has
new runners spreading everywhere.

Tap water is fine assuming this GH/KH are the same.


I amend the tap water as mentioned to bring up the hardness. And add
small amounts of Club Soda to bring the pH to the desired level.

I started this planted tank because I thought it would be simpler than
a reef tank. HA! That has NOT been my experience...


It's different. I think SW tends to easier but it cost more. Reef's
are critter based, this plant based.


Actually (not to be argumentative), I kept a number of Red and Green
Calpera sp and Hallimedia that grew quite well. You can see them
he

http://videodoc.home.mindspring.com/preefs1.htm


This is probably the meat I was looking for...

1/2 teaspoon K2SO4
1/2 teaspoon KNO3
1/16-1/8 teaspoon KH2PO4
15mls of Flourish

Add 4 days later:
1/2 teaspoon KNO3
1/16th KH2PO4
15mls Flourish


I am having trouble locating chemicals of this nature.

I can't find anyone who will sell the KNO3 because of it's oxidation
properties (used in explosives). I hear that stump remover contains
this, but... what else does it contain?

Do you know of a source in the US that will sell these chemicals in
small quantities? Or do you know of common workarounds?

KNO3 - Potassium Nitrate?
K2SO4 - Potassium Sulphate?
KH2PO4 - Potassium Phosphate?

(I'm no chemist...)

This will allow you to have a good range of nutrient concentrations
since you are dosing regularly but no excess since you do weekly 50%
water changes.


Well... actually, I was hoping to eventually avoid such massive water
changes. ;-) Is this possible once things get going?


Regards,
Tom Barr


Thanks again for the advice.

Greg

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Old 18-06-2003, 10:32 PM
Ron Nelson
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

also massively snipped and mid-posted

I am having trouble locating chemicals of this nature.


I found 2 pounds of lab grade KNO3 on Ebay fairly cheap and I had no
problems recieving it via UPS...
I've been using "NO SALT" from the grocery store as a source of potassium...
And for phosphates I use Fleet enema also from the grocery store...
ymmv but these are working ok in my 75.

Well... actually, I was hoping to eventually avoid such massive water
changes. ;-) Is this possible once things get going?


Everything I have read indicates that the large water changes are nesasary
to maintain the balance and replenish some of the trace elements etc...

Thanks again for the advice.

Greg



  #8   Report Post  
Old 18-06-2003, 11:44 PM
Greg G.
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 15:24:27 -0600, "Ron Nelson"
wrote:

I am having trouble locating chemicals of this nature.


I found 2 pounds of lab grade KNO3 on Ebay fairly cheap and I had no
problems recieving it via UPS...
I've been using "NO SALT" from the grocery store as a source of potassium...
And for phosphates I use Fleet enema also from the grocery store...
ymmv but these are working ok in my 75.


Wow! Although it's been a while since I used eBay, I did a search and
found just what I was looking for. I never would have thought of
going to eBay for chemicals. Found 2 lbs. of Pharm. Grade KNO3 for
$6.00. Sold! Thanks for the refresher...
I'll check out the local Kroger for the other stuff.

Well... actually, I was hoping to eventually avoid such massive water
changes. ;-) Is this possible once things get going?


Everything I have read indicates that the large water changes are nesasary
to maintain the balance and replenish some of the trace elements etc...


Ugghh... I was afraid of that...

I did a nitrate test with a Hagen kit and came up with 0mg/L.
I guess it should be somewhere around 10-20mg/L for optimal growth?
Balanced out, of course, with the other nutrients. Got any idea what
levels they should be at? Not that I can measure them accurately...

Thanks again,
Greg


  #9   Report Post  
Old 19-06-2003, 12:08 AM
Chuck Gadd
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:41:24 -0400, Greg
wrote:

Everything I have read indicates that the large water changes are nesasary
to maintain the balance and replenish some of the trace elements etc...


Ugghh... I was afraid of that...


Large water changes are kind of a safety net. If you are adding too
much of something, or if you are missing some trace element, a large
water change helps keep things balanced. But large water changes are
not an automatic necessity over the long term.

I did a nitrate test with a Hagen kit and came up with 0mg/L.
I guess it should be somewhere around 10-20mg/L for optimal growth?


Be VERY!!! careful trusting the test kit. Maybe mix up a reference
sample, or repeat the test using a reputable test kit before trusting
it. For "reputable", I'd say either Seachem or Lamotte. Not sure
about the Hagen nitrate kit. If the test kit isn't properly
indicating the nitrate level, then it's easy to massively overdose
without knowing it.

To mix a reference solution, you can mix 1 teaspoon KNO3 with 500ml of
water. Then take 1ml of that solution, and mix it with 500ml of
water. That should result in 13.73ppm Nitrate.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua
  #10   Report Post  
Old 19-06-2003, 06:23 AM
Greg G.
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 17:08:52 -0600, Chuck Gadd wrote:

I did a nitrate test with a Hagen kit and came up with 0mg/L.
I guess it should be somewhere around 10-20mg/L for optimal growth?


Be VERY!!! careful trusting the test kit. Maybe mix up a reference
sample, or repeat the test using a reputable test kit before trusting
it. For "reputable", I'd say either Seachem or Lamotte. Not sure
about the Hagen nitrate kit. If the test kit isn't properly
indicating the nitrate level, then it's easy to massively overdose
without knowing it.


Well, anxious to try some of this chemistry, I found a pound of Green
Light Stump Remover at the local Lowes. It claims to be KNO3.

It mixed up clear, and has no funny colors, odors, etc., so I decided
to try it. Now to test the test kit...

As per Chuck's suggestion, I mixed 1 tsp. with 500ml of water. Then
mixed 2 ml of that solution with 1 liter of water. According to the
Hagen test kit, the resulting mixture has a nitrate concentration of
about 3 mg/L.

Tried the test again with a Tetra kit. Although the kit is a few
years old, it came up with about the same reading.

If I recall correctly, mg/L and ppm are interchangeable?

So, either the stump remover contains filler, or the test kits are not
accurate.

FWIW,
Greg



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Old 19-06-2003, 10:32 AM
Greg G.
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

Xref: 127.0.0.1 rec.aquaria.freshwater.plants:73123

On Wed, 18 Jun 2003 23:37:26 -0600, Chuck Gadd wrote:

Some nitrate test kits report the results of nitrate-nitrogen.
For those kits, they report only the nitrogen portion of the nitrate.
To get to ppm Nitrate, you need to multiply the value by 4.4, which
would give you 13.2, pretty close to what you should get for the
reference solution.


According to the literature in the Hagen Nitrate Test Kit:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nitrate Test
For nitrate as nitrogen (NO3-N), divide result by 4.4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This implies that the kit is 'supposed' to read Nitrate directly.
And with this in mind, the kit is not accurate.

Also, to insure that the information I am tendering is accurate, I
remixed the standard solution and re-tested with each kit.

The Hagen kit contains a reagent #3 that is apparently comprised of
zinc dust mixed with N-1 Naphthylethylene-diamine Di HCl. Each time
the test is run, a different result is obtained. Apparently, the zinc
does not stay in suspension correctly, no matter how much the reagent
bottle is shaken. It masses together to the point that it makes
dispensing the solution near impossible - for it clogs the tip. This
kit is one month old.

The Tetra kit simply says NO3- on it. I have long ago lost the
enclosed pamphlet so I am uncertain which method it uses. The minus
symbol implies to me that the reading is nitrate-nitrogen.

And for an interesting aside, a Marine Enterprises Nitrate Test Kit
shows 0 ppm on the standard solution. Hmmm...

But, keep in mind that if your desired level of nitrate is 5ppm, that
would be 1.13ppm Nitrate-Nitrogen. Does the test kit go down to that
level? What is the lowest measurement value for the kit?


The lowest resolution on the chart on the Hagen kit is 5, although
using the sal****er scale could make it usable to 2.5 directly.
Guesstimation could extend this somewhat, but alas, the kit appears to
be completely inaccurate and inconsistant.

The Tetra Kit scale is 0 - 12.5 - 25 - 50 - 100.
Still unknown whether this is nitrate-nitrogen or Nitrate directly.

So the kits might be accurate after all, if they are reporting
nitrate-nitrogen.


If I understand this correctly, they are not.

I suppose that I could mix up various mixtures and use that to
calibrate/create my own scales for use with the kit until it is
expended... but is it worth the trouble?!

I happened to have these kits on hand, they were not purchased for the
purpose of testing nutrient concentrations. But the fact that they
are apparently inaccurate will steer me away from them in the future.

I will be on the lookout for more precise measuring kits.

Thanks again,

Greg
P.S. - Your web site is fantastic!

  #12   Report Post  
Old 19-06-2003, 08:44 PM
Alex R
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

"Greg G." wrote in message
...
Also, to insure that the information I am tendering is accurate, I
remixed the standard solution and re-tested with each kit.

The Hagen kit contains a reagent #3 that is apparently comprised of
zinc dust mixed with N-1 Naphthylethylene-diamine Di HCl. Each time
the test is run, a different result is obtained. Apparently, the zinc
does not stay in suspension correctly, no matter how much the reagent
bottle is shaken. It masses together to the point that it makes
dispensing the solution near impossible - for it clogs the tip. This
kit is one month old.


I've had the same experience with reagent 3 in the Hagen NO3 kit. It would
clog up the bottle tip so the liquid barely came out. I even contacted Hagen
about it, and they sent me a replacement reagent 3, but it had the same
problem. Apparently, you have to shake it for a couple of minutes before
this zinc mass dislodges from the bottom of the bottle. Hagen should
definitely address this. I finally bought a Seachem NO2-NO3 test kit and
that one works fairly well.

The Tetra kit simply says NO3- on it. I have long ago lost the
enclosed pamphlet so I am uncertain which method it uses. The minus
symbol implies to me that the reading is nitrate-nitrogen.


Considering the Tetra test kit scale, I doubt it measures NO3-N. (Few test
kits do.) The minus sign simply indicates the negative charge of the anion.

I suppose that I could mix up various mixtures and use that to
calibrate/create my own scales for use with the kit until it is
expended... but is it worth the trouble?!


You could always dose without testing, as I often do. For quite some time,
according to my test results, I have had to add the same amount of KNO3 each
time I dose. So now I don't test much, I just add this same amount twice a
week.
__
Alex
pcalex (at) hotpop.com


  #13   Report Post  
Old 20-06-2003, 01:56 AM
Greg G.
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 19:45:33 GMT, "Alex R"
wrote:

I've had the same experience with reagent 3 in the Hagen NO3 kit. It would
clog up the bottle tip so the liquid barely came out. I even contacted Hagen
about it, and they sent me a replacement reagent 3, but it had the same
problem. Apparently, you have to shake it for a couple of minutes before
this zinc mass dislodges from the bottom of the bottle. Hagen should
definitely address this. I finally bought a Seachem NO2-NO3 test kit and
that one works fairly well.


I am of the belief that no matter how much you shake it, it doesn't
break up - even after twenty minutes of vigorous pounding and shaking.

I've had 5 year old cans of paint mix up better. This particular
Hagen kit will be disposed of in short order. I am investigating the
SeaChem kit, as several others have mentioned it. It's certainly not
a requirement, as dosages can be calculated, as with Chuck Gadd's
excellent web page:

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_p...osage_calc.htm

Considering the Tetra test kit scale, I doubt it measures NO3-N. (Few test
kits do.) The minus sign simply indicates the negative charge of the anion.


Probably...

You could always dose without testing, as I often do. For quite some time,
according to my test results, I have had to add the same amount of KNO3 each
time I dose. So now I don't test much, I just add this same amount twice a
week.


This is true as well, and the approach I will eventually take. I'm
just one of those anal types who likes have a visual representation of
what I already know... ;-)

Thanks for the input,
Greg

  #14   Report Post  
Old 21-06-2003, 12:32 PM
Chuck Gadd
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

On Thu, 19 Jun 2003 00:57:30 -0400, Greg
wrote:

As per Chuck's suggestion, I mixed 1 tsp. with 500ml of water. Then
mixed 2 ml of that solution with 1 liter of water. According to the
Hagen test kit, the resulting mixture has a nitrate concentration of
about 3 mg/L.

Tried the test again with a Tetra kit. Although the kit is a few
years old, it came up with about the same reading.

If I recall correctly, mg/L and ppm are interchangeable?

So, either the stump remover contains filler, or the test kits are not
accurate.


I think the stump remover is close enough to call it pure KNO3.

And yes, mg/l and ppm are the same.

Some nitrate test kits report the results of nitrate-nitrogen.
For those kits, they report only the nitrogen portion of the nitrate.
To get to ppm Nitrate, you need to multiply the value by 4.4, which
would give you 13.2, pretty close to what you should get for the
reference solution.

So the kits might be accurate after all, if they are reporting
nitrate-nitrogen.

But, keep in mind that if your desired level of nitrate is 5ppm, that
would be 1.13ppm Nitrate-Nitrogen. Does the test kit go down to that
level? What is the lowest measurement value for the kit?


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua
  #15   Report Post  
Old 19-07-2003, 11:12 PM
JR
 
Posts: n/a
Default #@%$ Algae - I'm going to turn my tank into a bird cage.

The Hagen kit contains a reagent #3 that is apparently comprised of
zinc dust mixed with N-1 Naphthylethylene-diamine Di HCl. Each time
the test is run, a different result is obtained. Apparently, the zinc
does not stay in suspension correctly, no matter how much the reagent
bottle is shaken. It masses together to the point that it makes
dispensing the solution near impossible - for it clogs the tip. This
kit is one month old.


A conversation with a Hagen rep found that regent bottle 3 if
frozen seperates the zinc from solution. once seperated the test
is worthless. When ever the regent is seperated for any reason
the test wont work... At that time he did not have a answer for the fix.

We foud that our kits were getting frozen in transport way befor we got
them.
Time to look for a different kithth


JR,





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