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Old 17-07-2003, 08:45 PM
WD
 
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Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?


"LeighMo" wrote in message
...

I wish you would consider setting up a larger tank now. If she succeeds

in
keeping those goldfish alive in a tank that small for long, she'll be

doing
better than many grown-up goldfish experts.


Sigh, you're right, of course...suggestion noted for careful consideration

billy



  #18   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:45 PM
Rich Conley
 
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Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?



Yes. Aragonite is for sal****er tanks. Washing won't help, because it's the
sand itself that dissolves, making the water alkaline. Use silica sand
instead.


Or us african Cichlid keepers....


I use crushed coral and silica in my planted tank..its great..I think the coral
dissolving helps add trace elements for the plants...

Rich

  #19   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:45 PM
Rich Conley
 
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Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

10 gallon tanks arent too bad to light though...because theyre so shallow... 11"
deep, minus 2 inches of gravel....30 watts of fluoro does me fine.

"S. Oung" wrote:

LeighMo wrote:
Can it be possible to have a planted tank which is 10gals or less(2.5gal)?



Yes, it's possible, but it's difficult. See Amano's second book. It features
small planted aquariums, many under a gallon!

But it's a lot of work. You have to choose plants and fish very carefully.
You may also find that you need a lot more light per gallon than you would in a
larger tank.


[snip]
Leigh


Tell me more, I'm interested: why do smaller tanks need more
light/gallon? Because crowded plants shade each other more?

remove "deathtospam." to deactivate spam trap


  #20   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:45 PM
LeighMo
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

I use crushed coral and silica in my planted tank..its great..I think the
coral
dissolving helps add trace elements for the plants...


Using some aragonite can be helpful if you have very soft water, or want to
keep Rift Lake cichlids. But most people find using 100% coral sand or
aragonite in a freshwater tank does crazy things to the pH. Especially in a
small tank. I really don't recommend it for beginners.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/


  #21   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Duncan A. McRae
 
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Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

"WD" wrote in message
news:[email protected]..
I have a couple larger tanks in the garage that could be set up in a

matter
of hours. If she keeps them alive long enough for them to outgrow the

five,
I'll get her a big'un


I feel just awful for your car, forced to live out in the driveway while
your unused tanks take up space in your garage. If you're in the Toronto
area, let me do your car a favour, and take those tanks for you, so they're
out of the garage. You don't even have to say "thank you" when I'm done...


Cheers;
Duncan


  #22   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Ed
 
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Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

It sure is possible. Easier than larger tanks too! IMO. You can see
on my web site i-aquaria.com I have two small tanks setup as planted
aquaria. One is an Eclipse 3 and the other is a 10 gallon. Both grow
plants very well and both are low light tanks. But I also maintain
numerous old glodfish bowls with tons of plants in them and they get
nothing but sunlight....

The trick is patience.... You have to experiment and be patient. You
will not have an Amano looking tank first time out (If you do you're
very lucky).

I used sand in my Eclipse and a Flourite/gravel mix in my ten.... So
experiment and see what works best for you.

Regards,

Ed @
i-aquaria dot com



On Sat, 10 May 2003 03:42:38 GMT, JuanMa wrote:

Greetings.

Can it be possible to have a planted tank which is 10gals or less(2.5gal)?

What kind of lighting and chemicals should I use to keep the plants healthy
and thriving?

Can aragonite sand be used in such a tank(how much)? What can I use to keep
the plants in their place? What about compatible fish for the planted tank?

The 2.5gal tank I haven't bought it yet. I have a 10gal, but no lighting yet.
What kind of light should I use if I go with the 2.5gal? Can one of those
daylight fluorescent bulbs fit in the 2.5gal hood? Would it produce enough
light for the plants, or should I go DIY PC?

If I don't find any ideal type of sand, what could be the alternatives?

What plants do you recommend that I should start with?

I was thinking for livestock if I go with the 2.5gal. some fancy guppies or
neon tetras or two angels. If I go with the 10gal. the livestock will be a
little more varied, but not too much.

I was told that aragonite sand can make the water too alkaline? will it make
it so, even if I wash the sand?

TIA


  #23   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Rich Conley
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

I tend to find that it balaces my tank out at about 8 pH...theres no maintenance
of it..its rock solid...you dont have to worry about it fluctuating.

LeighMo wrote:

I use crushed coral and silica in my planted tank..its great..I think the
coral
dissolving helps add trace elements for the plants...


Using some aragonite can be helpful if you have very soft water, or want to
keep Rift Lake cichlids. But most people find using 100% coral sand or
aragonite in a freshwater tank does crazy things to the pH. Especially in a
small tank. I really don't recommend it for beginners.

Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/


  #24   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Sherry Michael Weller
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?


Hello!

I've found a lot of things people say about smaller tanks being
'difficult' a myth. I have two six gallon planted tanks. Nano and
microtanks are fun. www.aquabotanic.com has a Wet Thumbs micro tank
planted bulletin board you may be interested in. There are several 2.5
planted tanks.


Can it be possible to have a planted tank which is 10gals or less(2.5gal)?


Of course! IMO, I have found them to be rewarding and not all that hard.
I've traded my large tanks for small ones over the years.
Here is one of mine: http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~sherrym/fish.html

What kind of lighting and chemicals should I use to keep the plants healthy
and thriving?


It all depends on the kind of plants and your water conditions. Do you
want high light or a low light tank? Study up and see what plants
interest you. Smaller tanks usually need less light per gallon usually
because they are more shallow.

What about compatible fish for the planted tank?


Most killifish are excellent. I would avoid livebearers due to sudden
population increases. I've used lemon tetras, mini cories and cherry
barbs with great success. Angels would not work. You can also just have
some amano or glass shrimp.

If I don't find any ideal type of sand, what could be the alternatives?


I use pure Flourite.

What plants do you recommend that I should start with?


Depends on how much light you can get. Hard to kills like crypts,
anubias, java ferns and
inexpensive stem plants like hygro and coonstail. Start with a LOT of
plants to out compete algae. The only problem will be selecting small
plants, but it can be done!
  #25   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Sherry Michael Weller
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?


Yes, it's possible, but it's difficult. See Amano's second book. It features
small planted aquariums, many under a gallon!


Why is it difficult? Mine are easy.

But it's a lot of work. You have to choose plants and fish very carefully.


You also need to do so in a large tank.

You may also find that you need a lot more light per gallon than you would in a
larger tank.


I'm sorry, I don't agree. Unless you have a very tall 2.5 gallon tank,
you need less light in shallow aquaria. I grow low light plants and
medium light stem plants with 8 watts to 6 gallons.

Your choices will be very limited with such a small tank. Amano uses rasboras
and neon tetras in his smallest tanks. Amano shrimp and otocinclus for algae
control. But I'd be really hesitant to keep fish in such a small tank.


A pair of killies would be great in a 2.5 gallon as well as a few of the
above fish mentioned.

And if you are new, I really, really recommend you go with the 10 gallon tank.
The larger the tank, the easier it is to maintain. A small tank is very
unforgiving of mistakes.


I have found that mini tanks are just as 'forgiving' as my old 75 and 45
gallon tanks. I also do fun things to mess with my water chemistry with
peated DI water, etc. Many people inject c02 in 2.5 gallons! I simply
have not seen any proof that smaller tanks that are maintained well and
with intelligence are any harder then a big tank. Frankly I find them
less demanding.


  #26   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
LeighMo
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Why is it difficult? Mine are easy.

Small tanks are much less forgiving. Anything that changes, changes a lot
faster. Evaporation alone can be PITA with a small tank.

But it's a lot of work. You have to choose plants and fish very carefully.


You also need to do so in a large tank.


Not *as* carefully. Many common plants and fish simply won't fit in a tiny
tank. You have a lot more freedom with a larger tank. He wants to keep
angelfish. That is not going to work with a 2.5 gallon tank.

I'm sorry, I don't agree. Unless you have a very tall 2.5 gallon tank,
you need less light in shallow aquaria. I grow low light plants and
medium light stem plants with 8 watts to 6 gallons.


You have over a watt per gallon. That's plenty for low-light plants,
especially given the short height of a small tank. Where the higher lighting
requirements come in are for high-tech, high-light, Amano-style tanks. Which
is what he seemed to want. (He said he wanted to be able to grow anything he
wanted.)

I have found that mini tanks are just as 'forgiving' as my old 75 and 45
gallon tanks.


I have not found that to be the case. I kept a 5 gallon tank for awhile, but
eventually gave it away. It was just too much work.

Many people inject c02 in 2.5 gallons!


I didn't say otherwise. However, it's more difficult to keep the pH stable in
a small tank.

I simply
have not seen any proof that smaller tanks that are maintained well and
with intelligence are any harder then a big tank.


The key words being "well and with intelligence." All I said was that I don't
recommend them for a beginner.

You sound as if you're quite experienced with tanks of all sizes. But this
person is a beginner. Remember what it's like to be a beginner? You buy fish
and plants and chemicals you see at the pet store, just because they look cool,
and put them all in your tank. You do water changes religiously for the first
month or two, then might go months without doing one. You buy more fish than
the tank can reasonably support, just because you have to have them. Etc. The
larger a tank is, the more forgiving it is of beginner mistakes, simply because
it's a larger reservoir. Water quality can't change as fast in a large
reservoir as in a small one, and so larger tanks will "absorb" mistakes that
would overwhelm a small tank.

I've seen many small tanks that are just gorgoeus. Even reef tanks. But for
beginners, the conventional wisdom is to get as large a tank as you have room
for and can afford, and IME, it's very good advice.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/
  #27   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Dave Millman
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Yesterday I visited Ocean Aquarium in San Francisco again. Among the 50-70
planted tanks there (every tank in the store is planted!) are about 10 under 10
gallons. About 5 are the tiny 1-2 gallon glass types. He plants them with
appropriate scale plants, just a tad of lighting, and small fish like Endlers
livebearers.

Spectacular!

  #28   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Vincent
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Actually, I have seen planted tank with a lot of angels, but for my
personal experience, I had difficulty keeping them together with other
tank mates. My oto likes to harass them by clinging on to their
scales...

My experience with serpae tetra is not too good either. They tend to
intomidate the neons and cardinals in my tank. I would go for
cardinals, neons, yamato shrimps, SAE and badis badis. They are
excellent tankmates.

cheers


Sherry Michael Weller wrote in message .. .
Hello!

I've found a lot of things people say about smaller tanks being
'difficult' a myth. I have two six gallon planted tanks. Nano and
microtanks are fun. www.aquabotanic.com has a Wet Thumbs micro tank
planted bulletin board you may be interested in. There are several 2.5
planted tanks.


Can it be possible to have a planted tank which is 10gals or less(2.5gal)?


Of course! IMO, I have found them to be rewarding and not all that hard.
I've traded my large tanks for small ones over the years.
Here is one of mine: http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~sherrym/fish.html

What kind of lighting and chemicals should I use to keep the plants healthy
and thriving?


It all depends on the kind of plants and your water conditions. Do you
want high light or a low light tank? Study up and see what plants
interest you. Smaller tanks usually need less light per gallon usually
because they are more shallow.

What about compatible fish for the planted tank?


Most killifish are excellent. I would avoid livebearers due to sudden
population increases. I've used lemon tetras, mini cories and cherry
barbs with great success. Angels would not work. You can also just have
some amano or glass shrimp.

If I don't find any ideal type of sand, what could be the alternatives?


I use pure Flourite.

What plants do you recommend that I should start with?


Depends on how much light you can get. Hard to kills like crypts,
anubias, java ferns and
inexpensive stem plants like hygro and coonstail. Start with a LOT of
plants to out compete algae. The only problem will be selecting small
plants, but it can be done!

  #29   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
Sherry Michael Weller
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?


Why is it difficult? Mine are easy.


Small tanks are much less forgiving. Anything that changes, changes a lot
faster. Evaporation alone can be PITA with a small tank.


Like I said, I've always heard this, but have never found it true in
practice. I maintain my small tanks on the same schedule as my old large
tanks.

But it's a lot of work. You have to choose plants and fish very carefully.

You also need to do so in a large tank.


Not *as* carefully. Many common plants and fish simply won't fit in a tiny
tank. You have a lot more freedom with a larger tank. He wants to keep
angelfish. That is not going to work with a 2.5 gallon tank.


Well sure, and I told him that was a bad idea. But I see just as many
people trying to put an oscar or a goldfish in a 20 gallon too. It's all
the same problem if the the tank is 55 gallons or 5- education.

You have over a watt per gallon. That's plenty for low-light plants,
especially given the short height of a small tank. Where the higher lighting
requirements come in are for high-tech, high-light, Amano-style tanks. Which
is what he seemed to want. (He said he wanted to be able to grow anything he
wanted.)


I've never heard that said before, and I can't even fathom the logic in
that. If I have a 20 gallon tank that has 3 wpg, I should not need more
light in a 5 gallon tank to grow the same plants. especially since it's
likely the tank is deeper in the larger tank. Can you explain this one
more to me?

I have not found that to be the case. I kept a 5 gallon tank for awhile, but
eventually gave it away. It was just too much work.


Just curious, what kind of setup did you have?

I didn't say otherwise. However, it's more difficult to keep the pH stable in
a small tank.


I never had that problem either. Hopefully if your injecting co2 you
know about the KH and ph formula. The same rules apply, and hopefully
you are monitoring and going slow at first. I fiddle with my ph with a
lower KH then most people advise and I don't get fluxes in 24 hours over
..2. Oddly enough, the exact same rate of change I got in my 45 gallon
tank.

You sound as if you're quite experienced with tanks of all sizes. But this
person is a beginner. Remember what it's like to be a beginner? You buy fish
and plants and chemicals you see at the pet store, just because they look cool,
and put them all in your tank. You do water changes religiously for the first
month or two, then might go months without doing one. You buy more fish than
the tank can reasonably support, just because you have to have them. Etc. The
larger a tank is, the more forgiving it is of beginner mistakes, simply because
it's a larger reservoir. Water quality can't change as fast in a large
reservoir as in a small one, and so larger tanks will "absorb" mistakes that
would overwhelm a small tank.


True enough, but he asked if it was possible. He's here asking questions
before he buys, so kudos already. My opinion of what he can do has
increased tenfold then your average newbie. I also don't see a ten
gallon tank absorbing very many beginners mistakes. If he was debating
between a 60 and a 2.5 gallon, I'd understand that.
  #30   Report Post  
Old 17-07-2003, 08:46 PM
LeighMo
 
Posts: n/a
Default 10gal. or smaller planted tank?

Small tanks are much less forgiving. Anything that changes, changes a lot
faster. Evaporation alone can be PITA with a small tank.


Like I said, I've always heard this, but have never found it true in
practice. I maintain my small tanks on the same schedule as my old large
tanks.


Not me. I live up north, and I have central heating. Very dry in winter. The
5 gallon tank suffered so much evaporation in the winter that I had to remember
to top off the tank every other day or so, or the water level would drop so low
the filter would stop running.

Well sure, and I told him that was a bad idea. But I see just as many
people trying to put an oscar or a goldfish in a 20 gallon too. It's all
the same problem if the the tank is 55 gallons or 5- education.


But obviously, the larger the tank, the more room for error. Which was my
point.

I've never heard that said before, and I can't even fathom the logic in
that. If I have a 20 gallon tank that has 3 wpg, I should not need more
light in a 5 gallon tank to grow the same plants. especially since it's
likely the tank is deeper in the larger tank. Can you explain this one
more to me?


See this article:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Tech/Lighting/

Basically, it's a lighting survey that shows that the watt per gallon rule
breaks down for very large tanks (over 100 gallons) and very small tanks (under
5 gallons).

As for the reason...I don't know for sure, but I suspect it's due to the nature
of flourescent lights, and a certain obvious flaw in the wpg rule.

The longer a flourescent bulb is, the more efficient it is. So you get more
light per watt from a 4' bulb than from a shorter one.

And the wpg rule ignores the fact that height is more important than the other
dimensions. And height really doesn't change much as a tank gets larger.
Length is the dimension that changes the most. But the wpg rule treats all
dimensions as equal. Obviously, a tank that was 2'x2x6' tall would need more
light than one that's 6'x2'x2'. But the wpg rule would say they're the same
volume, and so need the same amount of light.

Just curious, what kind of setup did you have?


I had it set up in various ways. When I had a Betta in it, there was no
filtration. I tried it with a sponge filter for shrimp, and with a UGF for
various small critters. I even had it set up as a brackish tank for a pair of
baby puffers for awhile.

I never had that problem either. Hopefully if your injecting co2 you
know about the KH and ph formula. The same rules apply, and hopefully
you are monitoring and going slow at first


With DIY CO2, it's hard to overdose the tank if you have a 20 gallon. You can
OD and kill all the fish with DIY CO2 on a 2 gallon tank.

True enough, but he asked if it was possible.


And I didn't say it wasn't possible. I just tried to encourage him to go with
the larger tank.

I also don't see a ten
gallon tank absorbing very many beginners mistakes.


Larger would be better, but a 10 gallon is better than 2-1/2 gallons.
Following the beginner's rule of an inch of fish per gallon, he'd have to limit
himself to 2 fish. Very difficult for a beginner. With a ten gallon, he could
get himself ten small fish, and even if he went overboard, and got a few extra,
or some larger fish, he'd probably be okay.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/


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