#1   Report Post  
Old 22-07-2003, 10:03 PM
Joey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Improve DIY CO2???

Hello everyone,

I am currently looking for a way to prolong the DIY CO2 production. I
think
there might be a way to improve the reaction a little. As we all know
the
yeast + sugar reaction will form co2 and alcohol following this
formula:

C6H12O6(glucose) -- 2C2H5OH(ethyl alcohol) + 2CO2

We also know that alcohol will breakdown the yeast; hence result in
lower production of CO2 overtime.

But we know that alcohol react with oxygen will result in vinegar and
water as so:

C2H5OH + O2 -- HC2H3O2(vinegar) + H2O


Hence, if we added HCO3- (Baking Soda) at the start of the reaction;
we will
have the following reaction.


HC2H3O2(Vinegar) + HCO3-(Baking Soda) -- H2CO3( carbonic acid) +
C2H3O2-(acetate ion)

The carbonic acid will then reduce to water and carbon dioxide as so:

H2CO3 -- H2O + CO2


All in all, the final result is that we able to breakdown the alcohol
and gain additional CO2 from its reaction with baking soda. Hence, the
main modification is to add baking soda to the solution( which most
people already did). In addition we need to have a way so that oxygen
can enter the system.

One way to do this is to have another another tube connect to the DIY
CO2 system which in turn connect to an air pump.

I would like to hear what everyone think about such a modification.


Joe

  #2   Report Post  
Old 22-07-2003, 10:35 PM
Ghazanfar Ghori
 
Posts: n/a
Default Improve DIY CO2???

They airpump will probably overload any CO2 reactor very
quickly. You need something else in there to oxidize the alcohol.


"Joey" wrote in message
om...
Hello everyone,

I am currently looking for a way to prolong the DIY CO2 production. I
think
there might be a way to improve the reaction a little. As we all know
the
yeast + sugar reaction will form co2 and alcohol following this
formula:

C6H12O6(glucose) -- 2C2H5OH(ethyl alcohol) + 2CO2

We also know that alcohol will breakdown the yeast; hence result in
lower production of CO2 overtime.

But we know that alcohol react with oxygen will result in vinegar and
water as so:

C2H5OH + O2 -- HC2H3O2(vinegar) + H2O


Hence, if we added HCO3- (Baking Soda) at the start of the reaction;
we will
have the following reaction.


HC2H3O2(Vinegar) + HCO3-(Baking Soda) -- H2CO3( carbonic acid) +
C2H3O2-(acetate ion)

The carbonic acid will then reduce to water and carbon dioxide as so:

H2CO3 -- H2O + CO2


All in all, the final result is that we able to breakdown the alcohol
and gain additional CO2 from its reaction with baking soda. Hence, the
main modification is to add baking soda to the solution( which most
people already did). In addition we need to have a way so that oxygen
can enter the system.

One way to do this is to have another another tube connect to the DIY
CO2 system which in turn connect to an air pump.

I would like to hear what everyone think about such a modification.


Joe



  #3   Report Post  
Old 23-07-2003, 01:02 AM
Ross Vandegrift
 
Posts: n/a
Default Improve DIY CO2???

In article , Joey wrote:
I would like to hear what everyone think about such a modification.


Someone once posted who had done lab work on growing yeast cultures.
This individual reported that oxeygenating the yeast mixture increased
production a *lot*. IIRC, the problem was that alcohol production was
increased too much as well.

So you can increase your production in the short term, but you might
need to change your mixture every day.



--
Ross Vandegrift


A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.
  #4   Report Post  
Old 23-07-2003, 08:32 AM
Joey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Improve DIY CO2???

I made a modification of my DIY yeast+sugar system. I have an air tube
bubbling air from air pump into the close yeast+sugar+water+baking
sodas solution. I am monitoring the system to see how long it will
last. I will post the result of how long it lasts. Currently my
mixture is as follow:

3/4 cups of sugar
6 cups of water
2 tsp of yeast
2 tsp of baking soda
air is bubble into the solution.

I am not worry too much about the CO2 reactor being overload because I
have a control valve which regulate the rate of the bubbles going into
my powerhead.

Joe


Ross Vandegrift wrote in message

So you can increase your production in the short term, but you might
need to change your mixture every day.



--
Ross Vandegrift


A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.

  #5   Report Post  
Old 23-07-2003, 08:32 AM
Joey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Improve DIY CO2???

I made a modification of my DIY yeast+sugar system. I have an air tube
bubbling air from air pump into the close yeast+sugar+water+baking
sodas solution. I am monitoring the system to see how long it will
last. I will post the result of how long it lasts. Currently my
mixture is as follow:

3/4 cups of sugar
6 cups of water
2 tsp of yeast
2 tsp of baking soda
air is bubble into the solution.

I am not worry too much about the CO2 reactor being overload because I
have a control valve which regulate the rate of the bubbles going into
my powerhead.

Joe


Ross Vandegrift wrote in message

So you can increase your production in the short term, but you might
need to change your mixture every day.



--
Ross Vandegrift


A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.



  #6   Report Post  
Old 23-07-2003, 03:02 PM
Ghazanfar Ghori
 
Posts: n/a
Default Improve DIY CO2???


How are you monitoring the CO2 production?

"Joey" wrote in message
om...
I made a modification of my DIY yeast+sugar system. I have an air tube
bubbling air from air pump into the close yeast+sugar+water+baking
sodas solution. I am monitoring the system to see how long it will
last. I will post the result of how long it lasts. Currently my
mixture is as follow:

3/4 cups of sugar
6 cups of water
2 tsp of yeast
2 tsp of baking soda
air is bubble into the solution.

I am not worry too much about the CO2 reactor being overload because I
have a control valve which regulate the rate of the bubbles going into
my powerhead.

Joe


Ross Vandegrift wrote in message

So you can increase your production in the short term, but you might
need to change your mixture every day.



--
Ross Vandegrift


A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water

Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water

Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water

Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water

Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water

Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water

Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots

them.


  #7   Report Post  
Old 23-07-2003, 03:12 PM
Brian C. Attwood
 
Posts: n/a
Default Improve DIY CO2???

Joey wrote:
I made a modification of my DIY yeast+sugar system. I have an air tube
bubbling air from air pump into the close yeast+sugar+water+baking
sodas solution.


One problem I see with this setup is that the air is going to dilute the
CO2 going to your powerhead. If you are diluting the CO2 going into
your powerhead then most likely less CO2 will dissolve into the tank.
You might want to monitor your CO2 levels in your tank as part of this
experiment as well.

Brian

  #8   Report Post  
Old 23-07-2003, 04:08 PM
Ghazanfar Ghori
 
Posts: n/a
Default Improve DIY CO2???

Measureing CO2 in the tank will be an inaccurate way of measuring the
production. Depending on how fast the plants are consuming it, you'll get
fluctuations etc. Can't use a bubble count to measure it either,
since, like you mentioned, its diluted with air.
What probably needs to be done, is to setup two identical bare tanks,
with big reactors that will dissolve everything. Set one up with identical
yeast bottles, with one having the air input. And then at fixxed intervals
check the dissolved CO2 levels.

"Brian C. Attwood" wrote in message
...
Joey wrote:
I made a modification of my DIY yeast+sugar system. I have an air tube
bubbling air from air pump into the close yeast+sugar+water+baking
sodas solution.


One problem I see with this setup is that the air is going to dilute the
CO2 going to your powerhead. If you are diluting the CO2 going into
your powerhead then most likely less CO2 will dissolve into the tank.
You might want to monitor your CO2 levels in your tank as part of this
experiment as well.

Brian



  #9   Report Post  
Old 23-07-2003, 05:02 PM
Brian C. Attwood
 
Posts: n/a
Default Improve DIY CO2???

Ghazanfar Ghori wrote:
Measureing CO2 in the tank will be an inaccurate way of measuring the
production. Depending on how fast the plants are consuming it, you'll get
fluctuations etc. Can't use a bubble count to measure it either,
since, like you mentioned, its diluted with air.
What probably needs to be done, is to setup two identical bare tanks,
with big reactors that will dissolve everything. Set one up with identical
yeast bottles, with one having the air input. And then at fixxed intervals
check the dissolved CO2 levels.


The dilution of the CO2 does more than make a bubble count inaccurate.
If you crank up the air input such that the CO2 is diluted to nearly
ambient air levels, then you won't get much benefit beyond what a
regular airstone hooked up to a pump would provide, no matter how high
your CO2 production rate. That is the extreme case but there will be
some reduction in the efficiency of the reactor as long as there is some
dilution of the CO2. If the bubbled air does provide additional yeast
activity, there is probably an ideal bubble rate where the benefit of
added activity most greatly outweighs the problem of dilution.

Your experimental design would measure the overall efficiency of
"improved" system, because you are measuring only what dissolves into
the water. One way a bubble count could be used would be if a baseline
bubble count of just the air pump with no yeast was established. The
CO2 production would then be anything above the baseline.

  #10   Report Post  
Old 23-07-2003, 07:03 PM
[email protected]
 
Posts: n/a
Default Improve DIY CO2???

I think previous post have already addressed this, the rate of CO2
production is not an issue with anaerobic fermentation.

Switching yeast over to aerboic TCA cycle will produce too much CO2 at
one time for most applications.

Just do the simple plain old method. Change the bottles every 10-14
days and make things easier on yourself. If that's too much hassle get
a gas tank and mess with it maybe once every 3-6 months for a few
seconds.

Sucrose proved to be the best producer of CO2 in the experiment we
have done. Optimal temps play a large role also in then life and
production and are likely a better use to control rates.

Use a water bath for the CO2 brew bottle. Set the heater to raise the
temp up to 85F etc during the day when you need the CO2 and have it
plugged into the lighting timer so that it's off at night. It will
produce less CO2 and ETOH at coller temps and should last longer.
Careful not to melt that bucket for the water bath etc.

Too much crap for such a simple method if you ask me, just set the
brew on the lighting ballast for a similar effect and change it every
10-14 days.

Or get gas tank canned CO2 if you are serious and plan on keeping
plants for a few years.

Regards,
Tom Barr


  #11   Report Post  
Old 24-07-2003, 02:33 AM
Joey
 
Posts: n/a
Default Improve DIY CO2???

Yes, I am thinking of getting a CO2 tank too so I don't have to mess
with
all this stuff. However, getting a tank, regulator, fine valve control
and solenoid can cost a bundle.

Joe


) wrote in message . com...
I think previous post have already addressed this, the rate of CO2
production is not an issue with anaerobic fermentation.

Switching yeast over to aerboic TCA cycle will produce too much CO2 at
one time for most applications.

Just do the simple plain old method. Change the bottles every 10-14
days and make things easier on yourself. If that's too much hassle get
a gas tank and mess with it maybe once every 3-6 months for a few
seconds.

Sucrose proved to be the best producer of CO2 in the experiment we
have done. Optimal temps play a large role also in then life and
production and are likely a better use to control rates.

Use a water bath for the CO2 brew bottle. Set the heater to raise the
temp up to 85F etc during the day when you need the CO2 and have it
plugged into the lighting timer so that it's off at night. It will
produce less CO2 and ETOH at coller temps and should last longer.
Careful not to melt that bucket for the water bath etc.

Too much crap for such a simple method if you ask me, just set the
brew on the lighting ballast for a similar effect and change it every
10-14 days.

Or get gas tank canned CO2 if you are serious and plan on keeping
plants for a few years.

Regards,
Tom Barr



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