Well,

I didn't think I'd be reporting back so quickly, but this plant
is seriously not aquatic, despite the tag claiming "True aquatic!" It
took maybe a week or two for the roots to completely rot out and die.

Oh well.

--
Ross Vandegrift


A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:41:43 -0000, Ross Vandegrift
wrote:

I didn't think I'd be reporting back so quickly, but this plant
is seriously not aquatic, despite the tag claiming "True aquatic!" It
took maybe a week or two for the roots to completely rot out and die.

I've grown it completely submersed. It is a very demanding plant,
requiring very high light. It would grow well for a month or two, and
suddenly something was wrong and it would die off quickly. I gave up
after the second die-off, but I'm sure it's an aquatic plant, just an
extremely difficult one.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

They are definitely not aquatic plants. I have them in my yard and my
husband sells them at the garden center. It amazes me how many places I
see selling plants which are definitely terrestrial for them Beta bowls.
Oh the plant will do well for a little while, but the end is always the
same. If you want some interesting garden plants in the aquarium, try
some of the dwarf water lilies, they are very expensive, but beautiful.

Vicki

Chuck Gadd wrote in message . ..
On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:41:43 -0000, Ross Vandegrift
wrote:

I didn't think I'd be reporting back so quickly, but this plant
is seriously not aquatic, despite the tag claiming "True aquatic!" It
took maybe a week or two for the roots to completely rot out and die.

I've grown it completely submersed. It is a very demanding plant,
requiring very high light. It would grow well for a month or two, and
suddenly something was wrong and it would die off quickly. I gave up
after the second die-off, but I'm sure it's an aquatic plant, just an
extremely difficult one.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

I guess Ross didn't read any of the suggested material to give up so
easy.

Eric Leung wrote a great article on the dwarf specie. I'll quote it
he

As the availability of freshwater aquatic plant species grows, aquatic
horticulturists with a penchant for fast-growing flora may find
themselves in a peculiar predicament: how much time is too much when
it comes to the maintenance of aquaplants? More to the point, how can
one streamline the upkeep of a layout without sacrificing its
appearance? Perhaps one route lies in the strategic usage of
slow-growing plants that are versatile and easily maintained.

Lobelia cardinalis, the so-called "Cardinal Flower," is one such
species. It is a herbaceous perrenial named after Matthias de Lobel
(1538-1616), a Flemish botanist who served as chief physician to King
James I. Sometimes listed as a member of the Bellflower family
Campanulaceae, L. cardinalis can be found amongst moist terrain along
streams and within ponds throughout the Eastern and Central United
States. In the wild it produces green leaves with a purple underside
which are alternate, oblong-lanceolate and possess a serrulate margin.
The species puts on impressive stature when emersed, approaching 150cm
in height, and during the summer months - June thru September -
generates brilliant red 3 - 4.5cm bell-shaped inflorescence nearly 1cm
wide. These flowers are a favorite stopping point for area
hummingbirds.

This article will focus on the small form of L. cardinalis, also known
as "dwarf" or small form Lobelia. This is a Lobelia variant that is
ultimately shorter, more compact, and more attractive than the typical
variety when maintained under optimal submersed conditions.



CULTIVATING LOBELIA IN AQUARIA

Lobelia cardinalis "small form" is an undemanding species under ideal
submersed planted aquarium conditions, putting forth gorgeous
bright-green, ovate leaves 1 - 1.75cm in size. Leaf veins are plainly
visible and traverse foliage that when healthy, is smooth and
well-formed with no visible distortion, serration or discoloration. A
total width of approximately 7cm and a height of approximately 13cm
may be achieved by this variety. It produces internodal rootlets near
the base of the stem approaching the substrate; this growth is well
concealed amongst healthy specimens, dense leaves acting as effective
visual barriers.

Unlike many other aquatic stem plants, the species is relatively slow
to amass vertical height. However, upon closer inspection, healthy
specimens will be observed putting forth an abundance of firm, hearty
side-shoots, which can be pinched off and planted elsewhere. In truth,
L. cardinalis "small form" is an extremely prolific, quick-growing
species, though not in the conventional sense; it diverts much of its
energy towards daughter plants, which it readily produces with little
in the way of hobbyist intervention.

Lush, compact growth is customary for L. cardinalis "small form," with
extremely short internodes and dense sideshoots produced all along the
parent stem. Note the peeking-through of offshoots in the photo just
above.

Accuracy of water temperature and pH are largely unimportant in terms
of robust Lobelia growth. Typical planted aquarium parameters (72-85F,
pH 6.4-7.2) will suffice. Degrees general hardness (dGh) should be at
least 3 - 5. Moderately high to high light levels suit this species
well and prompt more compact and attractive growth. Micronutrient
supplementation with stabilised iron is necessary, as is the presence
of pertinent macronutrients; in particular, potassium and nitrate,
which can be offered in the form of potassium sulfate (K2S04) and
potassium nitrate (KN03). Phosphate should be measurable (as a point
of reference, PO4 was sustained at 1ppm within the layout below) .
These conditions will effect extremely lush and robust growth. Richer
conditions generate faster development of new offshoots.

L. cardinalis "small form" is easily propagated. Offshoots can be
pinched off or cut from the parent plant with sharp shears. Stems are
easy to sever, making propagation fairly effortless. After separating
offshoots from the parent plant, simply replant the young plants and
they will soon put forth fresh roots and amass size. They should be
positioned in an unshaded area of the aquarium, and can be located
quite close to each other - dense groupings do not seem to hinder this
species. In time, new growth coupled with numerous offshoots will
serve to fill in any gaps that may exist between individual specimens

LOBELIA USAGE IN AQUARIUM LAYOUTS

Dwarf Lobelia's need for frequent pruning and resizing is lessened, as
the species is slow to gain height. Consequently, the species, along
with its larger counterpart (Lobelia cardinalis "large"), is often
observed in Dutch-style planted aquariums, as a component of so-called
Dutch "streets." Arranged in a sloping, diagonal front-to-back
fashion, these "streets," through the use of pathways cut through
various stem and rosette plants, offer a sense of depth to
arrangements that are largely symmetrical by design. Slow vertical
Lobelia growth means that the design and shape of the street will
remain for some time without a large deal of upkeep. In essence, an
undemanding technique for creating a sense of dynamic "movement"
within static surroundings.

In the layout pictured below, L. cardinalis "small form" was used to
contain a circular mound-style layout. The slow-growing plant was
simple to arrange and set into place, subsequently left untouched for
several days before pruning was again necessary. Just behind, larger
and more insistent stem plants such as Ammannia gracilis were
cultivated. Midway thru the Lobelia ring, Heteranthera zosterifolia
and Ludwigia brevipes were utilized. Glossostigma elatinoides capped
the Lobelia in the foreground, perhaps helping to further a sense of
depth at a lower focal point, in addition to concealing the substrate;
and finally, adding small-leaved texture to the mix.

Various Cryptocorynes were cultivated to the left, and the active
Hemigrammus bleheri ventured overhead, adding a swirling variation to
the flora below. In this case, I think further rockwork would have
helped to lend a stronger sense of permanence to the design; one
significant change post-photography was the removal of the
interspersed Heteranthera and Ludwigia.

Lobelia offers some sense of stability and age to layouts when used in
large numbers, but perhaps this "feeling" is relegated to those
hobbyists directly engaged in cultivating it, and who are cognizant of
its slow-growing tendency. To be sure, its appearance is a subdued and
quiet one - this alone makes it a species worthy of consideration in
aquatic plant layouts.

You can read the actual article and see his gorgeous pics of healthy,
lush, and growing Lobelia by going he

http://www.e-aquaria.com/des_lobelia.html

Ghazanfar Ghori is another person who grows this plant easily. You can
read his account and see his pictures he

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.c...2&m=6686073482

Here is a picture of a large form of lobelia from another person in
the Wet Thumb forum:
http://web.wanadoo.be/apnd0007/foto/.../lobelia_2.jpg

BTW, anyone see the current issue of FAMA? Thats Ghazanfars photo on
the cover! I'm having 12 pictures published in FAMA as a photo spread
later this year!

Best regards

Robert Hudson
www.aquabotanic.com

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 23:24:18 -0400 (EDT), (~Vicki
~) wrote:

That's news to me. I have a Lobelia cardinalis in my tank that has
been there for over six months. It that time I have taken many
cutting from it and have since spread it to all four of my tanks and
several owned by other people. And Kasselmann lists it as an aquatic
plant also.

They are definitely not aquatic plants. I have them in my yard and my
husband sells them at the garden center. It amazes me how many places I
see selling plants which are definitely terrestrial for them Beta bowls.
Oh the plant will do well for a little while, but the end is always the
same. If you want some interesting garden plants in the aquarium, try
some of the dwarf water lilies, they are very expensive, but beautiful.

Vicki


Semper Fi!

Visit the forums at Aqua Botanic!
http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/#1

Need Nitrate or Potassium for your tank? Go to www.litemanu.com
(Just a happy customer of the above!)

In article , Robert H wrote:
I guess Ross didn't read any of the suggested material to give up so
easy.

Well, it wasn't so much giving up, as it was announcing the death of
that specimen to the group, since some people asked for an update.

Unlike many other aquatic stem plants, the species is relatively slow
to amass vertical height. However, upon closer inspection, healthy
specimens will be observed putting forth an abundance of firm, hearty
side-shoots, which can be pinched off and planted elsewhere.

In my tank, it took about two to three weeks for the root structure to
rot away and dissolve completely. You suggested lack of oxygen to the
roots could be a problem - how can I deal with this problem? The
substrate in this tank is coated gravel, not a sandy-type substrate, and
water can circulate decently through the substrate.


Moderately high to high light levels suit this species
well and prompt more compact and attractive growth. Micronutrient
supplementation with stabilised iron is necessary, as is the presence
of pertinent macronutrients;

This tank runs normally at 2wpg with CO2 injection (DIY, ~6-10ppm), and
fertilization (Kent FW Plant supplemenet for macro, Flourish Trace for
micro).

I actually have an additional light that I can use to bring it up to
3wpg (60W over 20G) - perhaps I should try again with the additional
lighting?

Also in the tank is a fair bit of sunset hygro and a huge amazon sword
plant - could these plants be too competetive for the L. Cardinalis?


You can read the actual article and see his gorgeous pics of healthy,
lush, and growing Lobelia by going he

http://www.e-aquaria.com/des_lobelia.html

The second pic is telling - the plant I bought, had no roots to speak
of, compared to those in the second picture posted here. Maybe imagine
that picture if you shaved all the fine, hair-like roots off, and just
left the stem.

Looks like I might have also gotten a poor plant to begin with?


--
Ross Vandegrift


A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots them.

This tank runs normally at 2wpg with CO2 injection (DIY, ~6-10ppm),

That is probably not enough light. High to very high light means over 3 wpg.
Possibly a lot over. And preferably CO2 closer to 25 ppm.

You've got a moderate-light tank, and probably should avoid plants like Lobelia
that need high light.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

Ross Vandegrift wrote in message om...
Well,

I didn't think I'd be reporting back so quickly, but this plant
is seriously not aquatic, despite the tag claiming "True aquatic!" It
took maybe a week or two for the roots to completely rot out and die.

Oh well.

--
Ross Vandegrift


I did a planting with 90% Lobelia(100 plants) and 10% Ludwigia with
rock hard tap water.
Does great underwater. The plants I have are from cuttings grown
underwater since 1998.

The "Dwarf" form is much more desirable than the nursery plants.
But both will grow.

Basic things a plant needs to do well in a tank is applicable for lush
growth, Light, CO2 and nutrients. Take care of these needs, and the
plant will be easy to grow.

Regards,
Tom Barr

Are you sure it wasn't a plant sold as "purple waffle?" I bought that plant
in Florida once on travel and it died within a week of being submerged. As
others have stated, it was sold as a "true aquatic". I have had one Lobelia
Cardinalis cut over a dozen times in the past 2 years. No special
treatment, but it is a heavy root feeder. Example of the plant I'm
describing is he

http://aquariumplant.com/cgi-bin/car...ml?id=sWgDifom

I successfully grew this plant in a 37 gal with 2 WPG at the surface and now
in my 75 gal with 3 WPG at the surface. The plant actually grew better in
my 37 gal tank. Go figure that one? Anyway YMMV and good luck!

Djay


"Ross Vandegrift" wrote in message
m...
Well,

I didn't think I'd be reporting back so quickly, but this plant
is seriously not aquatic, despite the tag claiming "True aquatic!" It
took maybe a week or two for the roots to completely rot out and die.

Oh well.

--
Ross Vandegrift


A Pope has a Water Cannon. It is a Water
Cannon.
He fires Holy-Water from it. It is a Holy-Water
Cannon.
He Blesses it. It is a Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
He Blesses the Hell out of it. It is a Wholly Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
He has it pierced. It is a Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
He makes it official. It is a Canon Holey Wholly Holy Holy-Water
Cannon.
Batman and Robin arrive. He shoots
them.

This is a true aquatic but does not like to be cut or replanted

Marcus
Http://www.Aquatic-store.com This weeks sales co2 tanks
Co2 regulator, bubble counter and needle valve $75.20

Webboard

http://aquatic.yupapa.com/phpbb/index.php



On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 22:41:43 -0000, Ross Vandegrift
wrote:

Well,

I didn't think I'd be reporting back so quickly, but this plant
is seriously not aquatic, despite the tag claiming "True aquatic!" It
took maybe a week or two for the roots to completely rot out and die.

Oh well.

FWIW

I started with some cuttings of the small form Lobelia close to a year
ago from someone on the APD list. I have been growing it since in two
of my tanks, one has 4WPG (CO2, lot's of nutrients etc.) and the other
is a low light 1.2WPG with no liquid ferts, just a very rich
substrate. Both tanks are growing this plant very well and I often
remove baby plants to propagate or trade. I have always cut them back
when they get too tall and replant the tips, have never had a single
specimen die on me yet. Actually I was surprised to see that growth
differed little between the high and low light tank.

Based on my experience I'd have to say it's an aquatic plant, grows in
both low and high light tanks. And seeing both of these tanks have a
rich substrate (fluorite, flourish tabs, mulm and peat) perhaps
prefers a rich bed or is a better root feeder than leaf feeder. I have
found it very easy to grow but am scared to call it easy after reading
some of these posts. Many imbalances have occured in the high light
tank from messing around with ferts and figuring out the best balance,
never effected the Lobelia in any way other than green spot on the
leaves. Perhaps the transition from emerged to submerged is somewhat
harder with this plant. The one's I received were already submerged,
perhaps that's why I didn't have any problems with it?

Here's some photos of the Lobelia in the high light tank:

March:
http://67.89.4.174/aqua/photos/03_2003/Image4.jpg

April:
http://67.89.4.174/aqua/photos/04_2003/Image24.jpg

May:
http://67.89.4.174/aqua/photos/05_2003/tank2.jpg

June:
http://67.89.4.174/aqua/photos/06_20...olarized_Y.jpg

Hope that helps, this truely is a nice plant and well worth trying it
again if you can.

Giancarlo Podio