#1   Report Post  
Old 30-08-2003, 08:05 AM
Akvaristen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Poor Growth

I have had poor growth in my tank - more or less from the start. I have had
a CO2 system in place for a month now (Nutrafin fermentation type) and I
have always used Seachem flourish additives. Lately also the pellets in the
substrate. My water #'s are fine (I think) PH 7.8, Ammonia and Nitrite 0, KH
0
GH 19(!). I have a deep 2-3" gravel bed with a layer of the fine red stuff
(name escapes me, but was recommended by LSF for planted tank) and a top
layer of coarse gravel. I have 14 red-eye tetra a dozen cardinal tetra, one
RAM and one Angel, one Siamese algae eater and one sail fin pleco.
The tank is 50 gl and the fish are doing fine. So are some of the plant,
particularly after the CO2. I have saggataria - very long and broad, Anubias
and cryptocyrenes. They all are doing reasonably well, but Amazons are not.
I attach a picture of some new ones I just added. A few days later the
leaves all had holes in them. What can I do to rectify this? I have always
used properly conditioned tap water - is it time to switch to RO?

Any advise is appreciated.

Thanks

Akvaristen

http://home.comcast.net/~akvaristen/...t-03-061-1.jpg





  #2   Report Post  
Old 30-08-2003, 11:42 AM
LeighMo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Poor Growth

How long has this tank been set up? And how much light do you have over it?
See this page for three possible explanations of your problem:

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/.../881/dying.htm

I attach a picture of some new ones I just added. A few days later the
leaves all had holes in them. What can I do to rectify this? I have always
used properly conditioned tap water - is it time to switch to RO?


No. There's nothing wrong with your GH. Contrary to popular belief, plants
actually like hard water.

Heck, Chuck, if you're reading this thread -- I think a great new article for
your site would be your post from last year about the AGA conference, about
plants and hard water.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/
  #3   Report Post  
Old 30-08-2003, 05:12 PM
Akvaristen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Poor Growth

I have a 48" Hellios fixture with 110W (2x55W) White 7100K and Actinic Blue
12000K. The tank was setup early January 2003. The tank is 48"x19"x14".

Akvaristen

"LeighMo" wrote in message
...
How long has this tank been set up? And how much light do you have over

it?
See this page for three possible explanations of your problem:

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/.../881/dying.htm

I attach a picture of some new ones I just added. A few days later the
leaves all had holes in them. What can I do to rectify this? I have

always
used properly conditioned tap water - is it time to switch to RO?


No. There's nothing wrong with your GH. Contrary to popular belief,

plants
actually like hard water.

Heck, Chuck, if you're reading this thread -- I think a great new article

for
your site would be your post from last year about the AGA conference,

about
plants and hard water.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/



  #4   Report Post  
Old 30-08-2003, 06:02 PM
Djay
 
Posts: n/a
Default Poor Growth

I think your water parameters cannot be correct. KH of 0 and Ph of 7.8
results in less than 0.23 ppm of disolved CO2. Your KH (if the reading is
correct) is DANGEROUSLY low providing NO buffering capability. Remeasure
your parameters a couple of times. Is your CO2 system working?

DJay


"Akvaristen" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
I have had poor growth in my tank - more or less from the start. I have

had
a CO2 system in place for a month now (Nutrafin fermentation type) and I
have always used Seachem flourish additives. Lately also the pellets in

the
substrate. My water #'s are fine (I think) PH 7.8, Ammonia and Nitrite 0,

KH
0
GH 19(!). I have a deep 2-3" gravel bed with a layer of the fine red stuff
(name escapes me, but was recommended by LSF for planted tank) and a top
layer of coarse gravel. I have 14 red-eye tetra a dozen cardinal tetra,

one
RAM and one Angel, one Siamese algae eater and one sail fin pleco.
The tank is 50 gl and the fish are doing fine. So are some of the plant,
particularly after the CO2. I have saggataria - very long and broad,

Anubias
and cryptocyrenes. They all are doing reasonably well, but Amazons are

not.
I attach a picture of some new ones I just added. A few days later the
leaves all had holes in them. What can I do to rectify this? I have always
used properly conditioned tap water - is it time to switch to RO?

Any advise is appreciated.

Thanks

Akvaristen

http://home.comcast.net/~akvaristen/...t-03-061-1.jpg






  #5   Report Post  
Old 31-08-2003, 01:02 AM
Akvaristen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Poor Growth

You are right - it was a typo KH=9. How do you calculate teh disolved CO2?

"Djay" wrote in message
...
I think your water parameters cannot be correct. KH of 0 and Ph of 7.8
results in less than 0.23 ppm of disolved CO2. Your KH (if the reading is
correct) is DANGEROUSLY low providing NO buffering capability. Remeasure
your parameters a couple of times. Is your CO2 system working?

DJay


"Akvaristen" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
I have had poor growth in my tank - more or less from the start. I have

had
a CO2 system in place for a month now (Nutrafin fermentation type) and I
have always used Seachem flourish additives. Lately also the pellets in

the
substrate. My water #'s are fine (I think) PH 7.8, Ammonia and Nitrite

0,
KH
0
GH 19(!). I have a deep 2-3" gravel bed with a layer of the fine red

stuff
(name escapes me, but was recommended by LSF for planted tank) and a top
layer of coarse gravel. I have 14 red-eye tetra a dozen cardinal tetra,

one
RAM and one Angel, one Siamese algae eater and one sail fin pleco.
The tank is 50 gl and the fish are doing fine. So are some of the plant,
particularly after the CO2. I have saggataria - very long and broad,

Anubias
and cryptocyrenes. They all are doing reasonably well, but Amazons are

not.
I attach a picture of some new ones I just added. A few days later the
leaves all had holes in them. What can I do to rectify this? I have

always
used properly conditioned tap water - is it time to switch to RO?

Any advise is appreciated.

Thanks

Akvaristen

http://home.comcast.net/~akvaristen/...t-03-061-1.jpg










  #6   Report Post  
Old 31-08-2003, 04:02 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Poor Growth

"Akvaristen" wrote in message news:[email protected]
I have a 48" Hellios fixture with 110W (2x55W) White 7100K and Actinic Blue
12000K. The tank was setup early January 2003. The tank is 48"x19"x14".

Akvaristen


Yuck.
Try the 5000K or the 6700K. An atinic is no good for planted tanks,
it's a deeper water coral bulb. The 12K might be okay but I'd change
the 7100K for sure.

You KH, CO2 and pH need work. KH should be 3 or higher.
Your water is very odd. Not many tap/tank waters are of this types.
Lots of Ca/Mg but no HCO3/CO3. Sometimes we fine high KH's but no
/little GH's with water softners etc.
Generally, if there is high GH from Ca and Mg, there's often CO3
associated with it, limestone/coral reefs/shells/dolomite and many
other minerals are CO3 based and dissolve.

Double check the KH again with another kit.
Also, the CO2 system you have is adequate for perhaps a 20gal/76L tank
max, the tank you have needs more CO2, but.............you need to
have about 2-3KH or higher to use CO2 well.

See www.thekrib.com for CO2 info and look at the pH/KH/CO2 table.
Try and understand how to use it.

This will _greatly_ enhance the plant growth once you figure this out.

Regards,
Tom Barr
  #7   Report Post  
Old 31-08-2003, 05:23 AM
Djay
 
Posts: n/a
Default Poor Growth

There are all kinds of sites with CO2/ KH / PH charts. Chuck Gadd has a
good collection ... http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_co2chart.htm
The variables on the chart are Ph and CO2. The KH is the constant. With a
KH of 9 you have about 3.8 which is very low. Your CO2 generator and
reactor are either too small or not working properly.
Good luck!

DJay

"Akvaristen" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
You are right - it was a typo KH=9. How do you calculate teh disolved CO2?

"Djay" wrote in message
...
I think your water parameters cannot be correct. KH of 0 and Ph of 7.8
results in less than 0.23 ppm of disolved CO2. Your KH (if the reading

is
correct) is DANGEROUSLY low providing NO buffering capability.

Remeasure
your parameters a couple of times. Is your CO2 system working?

DJay


"Akvaristen" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
I have had poor growth in my tank - more or less from the start. I

have
had
a CO2 system in place for a month now (Nutrafin fermentation type) and

I
have always used Seachem flourish additives. Lately also the pellets

in
the
substrate. My water #'s are fine (I think) PH 7.8, Ammonia and Nitrite

0,
KH
0
GH 19(!). I have a deep 2-3" gravel bed with a layer of the fine red

stuff
(name escapes me, but was recommended by LSF for planted tank) and a

top
layer of coarse gravel. I have 14 red-eye tetra a dozen cardinal

tetra,
one
RAM and one Angel, one Siamese algae eater and one sail fin pleco.
The tank is 50 gl and the fish are doing fine. So are some of the

plant,
particularly after the CO2. I have saggataria - very long and broad,

Anubias
and cryptocyrenes. They all are doing reasonably well, but Amazons are

not.
I attach a picture of some new ones I just added. A few days later the
leaves all had holes in them. What can I do to rectify this? I have

always
used properly conditioned tap water - is it time to switch to RO?

Any advise is appreciated.

Thanks

Akvaristen

http://home.comcast.net/~akvaristen/...t-03-061-1.jpg










  #8   Report Post  
Old 31-08-2003, 07:33 AM
Racf
 
Posts: n/a
Default Poor Growth


"Akvaristen" wrote in message
news:[email protected]
I have had poor growth in my tank - more or less from the start. I

have had
a CO2 system in place for a month now (Nutrafin fermentation type) and

I
have always used Seachem flourish additives. Lately also the pellets

in the
substrate. My water #'s are fine (I think) PH 7.8, Ammonia and Nitrite

0, KH
0
GH 19(!). I have a deep 2-3" gravel bed with a layer of the fine red

stuff
(name escapes me, but was recommended by LSF for planted tank) and a

top
layer of coarse gravel. I have 14 red-eye tetra a dozen cardinal

tetra, one
RAM and one Angel, one Siamese algae eater and one sail fin pleco.
The tank is 50 gl and the fish are doing fine. So are some of the

plant,
particularly after the CO2. I have saggataria - very long and broad,

Anubias
and cryptocyrenes. They all are doing reasonably well, but Amazons are

not.
I attach a picture of some new ones I just added. A few days later the
leaves all had holes in them. What can I do to rectify this? I have

always
used properly conditioned tap water - is it time to switch to RO?

Any advise is appreciated.

Thanks

Akvaristen

http://home.comcast.net/~akvaristen/...t-03-061-1.jpg





Nice to see the Emperor tube hanging down there. Its a good filter.
Cut those leaves off since they have been eaten away by your Pleco.....
Check your depth on the roots.....I wonder if they are rotted
away......just check while your pruning the eaten leaves away...... I
have been bad about that myself.

Bottom line, I think your common Pleco likes them.... I know much less
than many on here.....perhaps others know what else would cause what I
see....in the picture..

I lost a wonderful Amazon sword that filled an entire 29H. I removed
the UGF filter and replanted as before...but 75% of the roots ended up
in a non O2 zone and rotted which killed the plant after it got to
rotting for a week or so. I forgot about the O2....or lack of in a
regular non UGF substrate...

Good luck.


  #9   Report Post  
Old 31-08-2003, 01:22 PM
LeighMo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Poor Growth

I have a 48" Hellios fixture with 110W (2x55W) White 7100K and Actinic Blue
12000K. The tank was setup early January 2003. The tank is 48"x19"x14".


A 55 gallon tank with 110 watts over it. That should be enough for the plants
you have. (But that actinic isn't ideal for a freshwater planted tank. It's
meant for sal****er reef tanks.)

It does look like your pleco has eaten your Amazon sword plant leaves. If you
just put the swords in, it may be that the leaves were dying anyway. I would
try feeding the pleco some veggies, and hoping the plant gets tougher and less
palatable once it adjust to your tank. (That happened with my miniature sword.
My evil clown loaches chewed it to pieces. But once it started growing well,
they stopped eating the leaves.)

Your tank is too large for the CO2 system you have. But you don't have so much
light that you absolutely need CO2. If your main complaint is the Amazon
sword, it may be best to just bribe the pleco with some zucchini slices.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/
  #10   Report Post  
Old 31-08-2003, 05:22 PM
Akvaristen
 
Posts: n/a
Default Poor Growth

I guess I haven't thought that pleco could be the culprit. It is a true
statement, that there is little algae in the tank, so maybe he is going at
those plants. I should say - there are no algae that the pleco would eat,
because I am fighting a battle with long hair algae. I am picking it and
manage to keep it in control, but it is annoying. I will try to feed the
pleco some green on the side.

On the CO2 - I am curious to understand why that system is not adequate. (I
am new to this and want to understand and rectify). It is giving out several
bubbles a minute and they dissolve before the reach the surface in the
"trap" that came with the system.
How would I figure out how many bubbles are needed?

Thx

Akvaristen

"LeighMo" wrote in message
...
I have a 48" Hellios fixture with 110W (2x55W) White 7100K and Actinic

Blue
12000K. The tank was setup early January 2003. The tank is 48"x19"x14".


A 55 gallon tank with 110 watts over it. That should be enough for the

plants
you have. (But that actinic isn't ideal for a freshwater planted tank.

It's
meant for sal****er reef tanks.)

It does look like your pleco has eaten your Amazon sword plant leaves. If

you
just put the swords in, it may be that the leaves were dying anyway. I

would
try feeding the pleco some veggies, and hoping the plant gets tougher and

less
palatable once it adjust to your tank. (That happened with my miniature

sword.
My evil clown loaches chewed it to pieces. But once it started growing

well,
they stopped eating the leaves.)

Your tank is too large for the CO2 system you have. But you don't have so

much
light that you absolutely need CO2. If your main complaint is the Amazon
sword, it may be best to just bribe the pleco with some zucchini slices.



Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/





  #11   Report Post  
Old 01-09-2003, 02:02 PM
LeighMo
 
Posts: n/a
Default Poor Growth

I should say - there are no algae that the pleco would eat,
because I am fighting a battle with long hair algae. I am picking it and
manage to keep it in control, but it is annoying.


That's a sign that something is out of balance in your tank. I've heard some
people say that hair algae is a sign of too much iron; you may be
overfertilzing. All of your plants are relatively slow growers, and your light
level is moderate, so you may not need too much fertilizer.

You might also consider adding some water sprite or Hygrophila. You can even
just let it float at the top of the tank. Fasting growing plants help a lot in
keeping algae under control.

On the CO2 - I am curious to understand why that system is not adequate.


The system you have wasn't really designed for a tank the size of yours. The
Hagen thing is basically just DIY CO2, with yeast and sugar. It works well for
small tanks, but is often inadequate for large ones.

Some people make yeast and sugar CO2 systems work for large tanks, but it takes
some work. They often buy special wine yeasts (that last longer), use larger
containers for the fermentation, and run two or three batches at once.

It is giving out several
bubbles a minute and they dissolve before the reach the surface in the
"trap" that came with the system.
How would I figure out how many bubbles are needed?


It's impossible to say, because each tank is different. That's why you use a
CO2 chart, to see how much CO2 is actually getting into the water.

However, here are some factors that affect the amount of CO2 you'll get:

Surface turbulence -- Surface agitation dissipates CO2. For that reason,
people who inject CO2 often modified their filters and place their powerheads
and spray bars so they don't disturb the surface of the water.

Size of batch -- You may be able to get your CO2 levels up by using larger
batches of yeast and sugar, or running two at once. (Stagger them so that one
is starting up as the other is peaking.)

Amount of lighting and plants -- The more light and the more plants you have,
the more CO2 you need.

Reactor or diffuser -- Basically, the device that dissolves the CO2 into the
water. I don't know how effective the Hagen reactor is, but many people have
reported that injecting the CO2 directly into the filter is the best way to
dissolve CO2 into water.

Tank cover -- A tight cover will help keep the CO2 in.

If you don't want to upgrade your CO2 system, you probably don't have to.
While more CO2 would be desirable, you seem to have enough. The Hagen system
is probably doing you some good, even if it doesn't create Amano-like CO2
levels.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/


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