Rex Grigg wrote:

Where do these minerals get the energy to emit those far infrared
rays? How come I'm still paying for home heating oil? All I need is
a pile of those rocks and my house will be toasty warm!

Assuming the rocks are uranium, sure


--
www.ericschreiber.com

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:14:47 -0600, Eric Schreiber
wrote:

Rex Grigg wrote:

Where do these minerals get the energy to emit those far infrared
rays? How come I'm still paying for home heating oil? All I need is
a pile of those rocks and my house will be toasty warm!

Assuming the rocks are uranium, sure


Nah... one good phaser blast, set on low that is, and presto there you
have it .... heat

Well that's enough of going "OT" for me.... will not post any more
snide comments on infrared whatchamacallits, magnets or other
whosamajiggers....

Now back to the FISH.....
you know they sort of look like this --- -^))

I'm now going back to my tanks and "just keep looking, just keep
looking, looking, looking". Stop that!

LOL! I gather this company is not based in an English-speaking country. I
wouldn't worry too much. Unlike Mr. "I live 5 minutes from the federal
courthouse," they're probably going to find it a lot harder to file lawsuits
against U.S. defendents.


Leigh

http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/halloween/881/

tose (LeighMo) wrote:

LOL! I gather this company is not based in an English-speaking country. I
wouldn't worry too much. Unlike Mr. "I live 5 minutes from the federal
courthouse," they're probably going to find it a lot harder to file lawsuits
against U.S. defendents.

They claim to be based in Houston, but you certainly wouldn't know it
from their language skills.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 09:17:41 -0500, "Peter Gennaro"
wrote:

If I remember right the Petswarehouse guy was counter-sued and thoroughly
crushed out of business.

Chuck Gadd has a link to it on his website.

Nope, the case is still SLOWLY working it's way thru the courts.

A bunch of defendants settled early, simply due to the unavoidable
costs of defending yourself in a courtroom across the country.

A handful of defendants are fighting back. Full scoop can be found
at

http://www.petsforum.com/psw/Default.html


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

On 20 Nov 2003 11:18:15 -0800, (B Lee) wrote:

I find it disturbing that Petwarehouse would even dare to attempt to
threaten a public forum like this. I have never used the product,

IMPORTANT DISTINCTION HERE!!!! It was not Petwarehouse (now Doctors
Foster & Smith's Pet Warehouse). It was Pets Warehouse.

Personally, I highly doubt Petswarehouse would be successful in such a
lawsuit. Bad PR also. The press would have such a field day with a
story like that.

Well, the case has been going on for about 2.5 years now. Regardless
of how successful it will be in the end, the case has succeeded in
causing grief and expense to a bunch of fellow aquaria hobbyists.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 19:02:30 -0600, "Bob Alston"
wrote:

Hey - check out these two pages for the "technology" behind this Far
Infrared:


Far Infrared is simply HEAT. That's all it really means. But Far
Infrared makes a product sound much more impressive.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 12:52:36 -0700, Chuck Gadd wrote:

On 20 Nov 2003 11:18:15 -0800, (B Lee) wrote:

I find it disturbing that Petwarehouse would even dare to attempt to
threaten a public forum like this. I have never used the product,

IMPORTANT DISTINCTION HERE!!!! It was not Petwarehouse (now Doctors
Foster & Smith's Pet Warehouse). It was Pets Warehouse.

Personally, I highly doubt Petswarehouse would be successful in such a
lawsuit. Bad PR also. The press would have such a field day with a
story like that.

Well, the case has been going on for about 2.5 years now. Regardless
of how successful it will be in the end, the case has succeeded in
causing grief and expense to a bunch of fellow aquaria hobbyists.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua

Do you supose that they changed their name so as not to be confused
with the other 'pets warehouse'? The good doctors run a great
operation and hopefully did not get hurt by being mistaken for those
***********s.

Eric Schreiber wrote in message . ..
tose (LeighMo) wrote:

LOL! I gather this company is not based in an English-speaking country. I
wouldn't worry too much. Unlike Mr. "I live 5 minutes from the federal
courthouse," they're probably going to find it a lot harder to file lawsuits
against U.S. defendents.

They claim to be based in Houston, but you certainly wouldn't know it
from their language skills.

All I can say is you guys that know the history have big kahonies
here! Just a little friendly warning, there is a big difference
between complaining of bad service and ridiculing a product. I would
have been much more impressed if they publicaly challenged the
skeptisism and explained how it worked than threatening to sue, but
they wouldn't be the first to succeed at a suit of this type. It would
be entirely different than the PSW suit.

Robert

Eric Schreiber wrote in message . ..
tose (LeighMo) wrote:

LOL! I gather this company is not based in an English-speaking country. I
wouldn't worry too much. Unlike Mr. "I live 5 minutes from the federal
courthouse," they're probably going to find it a lot harder to file lawsuits
against U.S. defendents.

They claim to be based in Houston, but you certainly wouldn't know it
from their language skills.

I am more interested in hearing arguements on the scientific
principals the company claims, and if it does work, what affect it
would have on a planted aquarium. What affect would it have on carbon
dioxide, posite and negative ions, cations and anions, the nitrate
uptake of the plants, plant photosynthesis, DOC levels...

I did a search on the product in Google and came up with lots of
stuff..(never saw Rexs comments, but lots of talk about the product in
lots and lots of forums) There was plenty of sketicisim both in
freshwater and Marine forums, but not all negative. They do have their
supporters. FAMA magazine wrote a very positive review of it, and
Monolith Marine Monsters, M3, is not only seling the product, but
gives much detailed information about how it works and the science
behind it. M3 has long had a reputation of selling only high quality
specialty equipment. Many of you have their C02 equipment and swear by
them. Even with past troubles, M3s reputation for its product line has
been sterling, (much to my dismay!)
http://www.marine-monsters.com/front...aqualizer.html
There are other very well respected dealers putting their reputation
on the line by selling this product.

I personaly am very skeptical of it, but I also would like to know
more about how practical it would really be in a freshwater plant tank
assuming it does work. This type of discussion would be much more
usefull, and much safer when it comes to personal liability for making
such comments publicaly.

Robert

Eric Schreiber wrote in message . ..
tose (LeighMo) wrote:

LOL! I gather this company is not based in an English-speaking country. I
wouldn't worry too much. Unlike Mr. "I live 5 minutes from the federal
courthouse," they're probably going to find it a lot harder to file lawsuits
against U.S. defendents.

They claim to be based in Houston, but you certainly wouldn't know it
from their language skills.

I am more interested in hearing arguements on the scientific
principals the company claims, and if it does work, what affect it
would have on a planted aquarium. What affect would it have on carbon
dioxide, posite and negative ions, cations and anions, the nitrate
uptake of the plants, plant photosynthesis, DOC levels...

I did a search on the product in Google and came up with lots of
stuff..(never saw Rexs comments, but lots of talk about the product in
lots and lots of forums) There was plenty of sketicisim both in
freshwater and Marine forums, but not all negative. They do have their
supporters. FAMA magazine wrote a very positive review of it, and
Monolith Marine Monsters, M3, is not only seling the product, but
gives much detailed information about how it works and the science
behind it. M3 has long had a reputation of selling only high quality
specialty equipment. Many of you have their C02 equipment and swear by
them. Even with past troubles, M3s reputation for its product line has
been sterling, (much to my dismay!)
http://www.marine-monsters.com/front...aqualizer.html
There are other very well respected dealers putting their reputation
on the line by selling this product.

I personaly am very skeptical of it, but I also would like to know
more about how practical it would really be in a freshwater plant tank
assuming it does work. This type of discussion would be much more
usefull, and much safer when it comes to personal liability for making
such comments publicaly.

Robert

(Robert H) wrote:

I am more interested in hearing arguements on the scientific
principals the company claims

Unfortunately, their marketing information is pretty vague. One claim
they did make, about Far Infrared and bioceramic elements from NASA,
was pretty much debunked by material on NASA's own site:

http://tinyurl.com/vwq7


M3 has long had a reputation of selling only high quality
specialty equipment. Many of you have their C02 equipment and swear by
them. Even with past troubles, M3s reputation for its product line has
been sterling, (much to my dismay!)
http://www.marine-monsters.com/front...aqualizer.html

Looks like they're printing an expanded version of the manufacturer
data. As has been noted before, far infrared is nothing more than
heat. Without some energy source, how is the product increasing the
far infrared level above ambient?

That naturally occurring magnetic field in all oceans and lakes is
also in all aquariums - it covers everything on earth. You don't need
a special magnet to produce the effect, since it's already there.

"Because like-charges REPEL each other, the water molecules separate
or split and become smaller structured molecules". You don't split a
water molecule and get a smaller water molecule - you get two hydrogen
and one oxygen atom.


There are other very well respected dealers putting their reputation
on the line by selling this product.

I think it would be great to have my opinion on this proven wrong, but
I don't expect it to happen. The "how it works" information I've seen
has had far too much new-wave bafflegab and psuedo-science sounding
terminology to convince me that it's legitimate.


--
www.ericschreiber.com

They claim to be based in Houston, but you certainly wouldn't know it
from their language skills.

Near as I can tell, they have their web site hosted with a company in Houston.
But if you look at their actual physical addresses (listed on their web site,
under "contacts"), they're all overseas, in places like Thailand, the Malta
Islands, Indonesia, Singapore, Portugal, etc. If they want to file a lawsuit
in the U.S., they're going to have to hire a lawyer. I think they'll find
American lawyers are a lot pricier than American webhosting.

Folks that behave poorly in business to potential customers and go
after customer are MUCH worse off in the long run, even if they do
manage to silence someone.
Instead they immediately threaten you.
Gee, that will win praise on the net real fast.

They **** and moan about one of two post then threaten someone who
will then tell everyone about it while if the company had just gone
about their business, that little post in some obscure mailing list
about some plants would not have been noticed but by coming out after
the customer, this really brings the fight out for everyone to see and
the court of public opinion will weigh very heavily against the
business, not the consumer.

Now MOST businesses understand this, some fruitcakes evidently do not.
But it's okay, they hurt themselves the worse.

Some actually end up in Bankruptcy court and file Ch 7 or Ch 11.
I know one such case.

Too bad they cannot come forward and discuss things like bad service
issues, science behind the product and convienice, address the folks
that are skeptics or at least beat the skeptics in a
debate/discussion.

This is much better business approach and wins more sales than the
legal billy club.

They do not have time to discuss the product/service but these same
companies have the time to call their lawyers and sue consumers,
gather evidence?

I would gladly buy from SeaChem, Marineland, and other companies that
talk to hobbyist and give details. They do not threaten the customer
if the customer does not like it.
They spend less time/energy etc on legal issues and more on good
service and doing things for customers that win loylaty. It's cheaper
to simply give something away than to sue someone. It's a better
investment.

SeaChem made a number of things that were controvesial, but they won
folks over slowly with good service and supporting the hobby.

If they have a critic they try everything to solve the issue and have
sent replacement products to those with issues at no cost etc.
This is good business ense and a much better investment in the long
term than threats.

Business to business uissues are different but you never go after a
customer, you always try and work it out with them.

Got a critic and don't like what they said?

Get off your butt and defend it and not with lawyers.
If it works you need to know why it works and explain it enough to
make sense to the consumer.

Your selling something that requires this approach in sales
By not doing that, it makes the consumer both paranoid/suspicious and
also the mere fact that you threaten instead of discussing gives a
horrid taste in ANY consumer's mouth.

The web is a big place and the court of public opinion weighs very
heavily here, you will not win in business using your approach, that I
do know.

Most successful companies really do not waste their time or energy of
such stupid notions as to go after a consumer. It's bad business.

Going after a customer cost a great deal and takes a long time, even
for legal hobbyist and they always lose in the end.
I'd much rather take any cost/profits etc and use it to build the
business rather than defending what one person said on a long
forgotton post.

The nastygram post from these companies are used against the companies
in the court of public opinion on the web for all to see. That's the
worse thing you can do as a company.

The company only discredits themself by avoiding a discussion and
threatening the consumers.

Compliments are one of the best investments a copmpnmay can make to
consumers, legal threats to consumers are some of the worse.

Say , "Yes, good points dear consumer...." then go to explain an
answer....it's easier than talking about law.

Regards,
Tom Barr

On 22 Nov 2003 10:54:18 -0800,
) wrote:

Your selling something that requires this approach in sales
By not doing that, it makes the consumer both paranoid/suspicious and
also the mere fact that you threaten instead of discussing gives a
horrid taste in ANY consumer's mouth.

I definitely agree with this point. I have my opinion on the product
in question based on the pseudo-scientific descriptions, but what
makes me most skeptical is that rather than debate the science, they
consult lawyers. If there is solid science behind a product, then
that seems that discussing that science would be the best way to
response to critics.

If I was selling a product that WAS snake-oil, then my only way to
challenge critics would be thru a lawyer.


Chuck Gadd
http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua