Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #16   Report Post  
Old 24-03-2004, 08:27 AM
Michi Henning
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

"Rikko" wrote in message
...

This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using
liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I
believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley
releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid
providing any sort of time release decay.


There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract.
They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have
to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months
to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem
and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective.
(Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters
at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.)

In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite
in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem
then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add
something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really
putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be
remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix).

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com


  #17   Report Post  
Old 24-03-2004, 08:31 AM
Michi Henning
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

"Rikko" wrote in message
...

This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using
liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I
believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley
releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid
providing any sort of time release decay.


There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract.
They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have
to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months
to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem
and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective.
(Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters
at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.)

In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite
in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem
then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add
something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really
putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be
remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix).

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

  #18   Report Post  
Old 24-03-2004, 08:58 AM
Michi Henning
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

"Rikko" wrote in message
...

This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using
liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I
believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley
releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid
providing any sort of time release decay.


There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract.
They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have
to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months
to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem
and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective.
(Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters
at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.)

In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite
in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem
then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add
something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really
putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be
remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix).

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

  #19   Report Post  
Old 24-03-2004, 08:58 AM
Michi Henning
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

"Rikko" wrote in message
...

This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using
liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I
believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley
releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid
providing any sort of time release decay.


There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract.
They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have
to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months
to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem
and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective.
(Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters
at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.)

In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite
in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem
then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add
something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really
putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be
remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix).

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

  #20   Report Post  
Old 24-03-2004, 09:46 AM
Michi Henning
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

"Rikko" wrote in message
...

This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using
liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I
believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley
releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid
providing any sort of time release decay.


There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract.
They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have
to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months
to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem
and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective.
(Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters
at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.)

In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite
in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem
then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add
something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really
putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be
remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix).

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com



  #21   Report Post  
Old 26-03-2004, 12:13 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

"Michi Henning" wrote in message ...
"Rikko" wrote in message
...

This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using
liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I
believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley
releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid
providing any sort of time release decay.


There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract.
They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have
to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months
to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem
and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective.
(Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters
at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.)

In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite
in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem
then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add
something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really
putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be
remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix).

Cheers,

Michi.



In order to test the effectiveness of ANY algae cure, you need to make
sure you are not limiting the plants.

Most aquarist have trouble with that part, and this is why they have
the algae in the first place.

This is also why is a bad idea and poor approach to plant keeping to
focus on the algae and not on the plants.

I have done several attempts with barley straw as have two other
aquarist that were/are able to provide careful nutrient levels to the
plants and also have several species of large epiphytic algae that was
in log growth phase and also just stagnant growth.

Under non limiting conditions the straw extract and the straw itself
had NO IMPACT on the algae.

We did not test it on green water but I doubt it will be any
different.
One thing that the straw does is provide a good place for rotifers and
supplies some nutrients to the bacterial loop. Several papers have
conflicting reports about it and the assumed active ingredient,
peroxide.

I think it is useful for ponds in some cases, not all, but having
enough macrophytes will also prevent any green water from ever forming
so adding more plants versus adding abale of rotting straw seems a bit
more logical to me.

They also sell straw pellets which sink.

General rule: stay away from any algae cures, work on growing the
plants well, you will save more money, waste less time and have a
better looking tank.

Regards,
Tom Barr
  #22   Report Post  
Old 26-03-2004, 12:13 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

"Michi Henning" wrote in message ...
"Rikko" wrote in message
...

This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using
liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I
believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley
releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid
providing any sort of time release decay.


There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract.
They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have
to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months
to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem
and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective.
(Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters
at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.)

In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite
in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem
then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add
something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really
putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be
remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix).

Cheers,

Michi.



In order to test the effectiveness of ANY algae cure, you need to make
sure you are not limiting the plants.

Most aquarist have trouble with that part, and this is why they have
the algae in the first place.

This is also why is a bad idea and poor approach to plant keeping to
focus on the algae and not on the plants.

I have done several attempts with barley straw as have two other
aquarist that were/are able to provide careful nutrient levels to the
plants and also have several species of large epiphytic algae that was
in log growth phase and also just stagnant growth.

Under non limiting conditions the straw extract and the straw itself
had NO IMPACT on the algae.

We did not test it on green water but I doubt it will be any
different.
One thing that the straw does is provide a good place for rotifers and
supplies some nutrients to the bacterial loop. Several papers have
conflicting reports about it and the assumed active ingredient,
peroxide.

I think it is useful for ponds in some cases, not all, but having
enough macrophytes will also prevent any green water from ever forming
so adding more plants versus adding abale of rotting straw seems a bit
more logical to me.

They also sell straw pellets which sink.

General rule: stay away from any algae cures, work on growing the
plants well, you will save more money, waste less time and have a
better looking tank.

Regards,
Tom Barr
  #23   Report Post  
Old 26-03-2004, 12:21 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

"Michi Henning" wrote in message ...
"Rikko" wrote in message
...

This was the Laguna bagged stuff - I've heard nothing about using
liquid extracts or the like, but I don't know that they would work. I
believe the principle behind it is that the slow decay of the barley
releases enzymes that discourage algae growth.. I can't see a liquid
providing any sort of time release decay.


There are liquid products around that are made from barley extract.
They are supposed to contain the same enzymes -- you simply have
to dose them every few days. I tried one of these for a few months
to see whether I'd make any progress on a slight green water problem
and some green fuzz algae. To me, the stuff didn't seem to be effective.
(Of course, there may have been other issues with my water parameters
at the time that were dominant, so the barley extract couldn't work.)

In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite
in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem
then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add
something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really
putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be
remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix).

Cheers,

Michi.



In order to test the effectiveness of ANY algae cure, you need to make
sure you are not limiting the plants.

Most aquarist have trouble with that part, and this is why they have
the algae in the first place.

This is also why is a bad idea and poor approach to plant keeping to
focus on the algae and not on the plants.

I have done several attempts with barley straw as have two other
aquarist that were/are able to provide careful nutrient levels to the
plants and also have several species of large epiphytic algae that was
in log growth phase and also just stagnant growth.

Under non limiting conditions the straw extract and the straw itself
had NO IMPACT on the algae.

We did not test it on green water but I doubt it will be any
different.
One thing that the straw does is provide a good place for rotifers and
supplies some nutrients to the bacterial loop. Several papers have
conflicting reports about it and the assumed active ingredient,
peroxide.

I think it is useful for ponds in some cases, not all, but having
enough macrophytes will also prevent any green water from ever forming
so adding more plants versus adding abale of rotting straw seems a bit
more logical to me.

They also sell straw pellets which sink.

General rule: stay away from any algae cures, work on growing the
plants well, you will save more money, waste less time and have a
better looking tank.

Regards,
Tom Barr
  #24   Report Post  
Old 26-03-2004, 01:03 PM
Michi Henning
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

" wrote in message
om...
"Michi Henning" wrote in message

...

In general, with algae growth, there is something not quite
in balance in the tank. To me, the best way to address the problem
then is to find out what's not right and address that. If I add
something to an already out-of-balance tank, thereby really
putting it even more out of balance, that seems unlikely to be
remedy for the problem (except maybe as a short-term fix).

One thing that the straw does is provide a good place for rotifers and
supplies some nutrients to the bacterial loop. Several papers have
conflicting reports about it and the assumed active ingredient,
peroxide.


Hmmm... Tom, to paraphrase you, you are essentially saying
that barley straw may help to reduce algae because it adds
nutrients? If I understood that correctly then, I guess that makes
both your and my point :-)

The peroxide thing is interesting though, especially considering
that people have been using peroxide as a spot-treatment for
black brush algae. Do you have any links about this? This
sounds interesting...

BTW -- I have anecdotal evidence that treating a tank with
KMnSO4 works as a remedy for blue-green algae, which
would sort of link in with the peroxide thing. I'm curious now...

Cheers,

Michi.

--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

  #25   Report Post  
Old 27-03-2004, 04:32 AM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

Hmmm... Tom, to paraphrase you, you are essentially saying
that barley straw may help to reduce algae because it adds
nutrients? If I understood that correctly then, I guess that makes
both your and my point :-)


It could. It adds organic carbon, so in a sense it's adding nutrients
perhaps a few others. But is it really helping the plants grow better?
No.

The peroxide thing is interesting though, especially considering
that people have been using peroxide as a spot-treatment for
black brush algae. Do you have any links about this? This
sounds interesting...


Peroxide studies have been done namely on perti dishes with various
organisms including algae and measuring the diameter of inhibition.
You can try this without fish in a planted tank(something I've done
for a long while for various plant algae torture) also. Cheap and easy
to do/try.
Measure a certain volume/concentration and frequency over time and
note effects.
Hard part: making sure that the nutrients are non limiting/stable.
If you can do that and it's not merely an academic intellectual issue,
then you don't ask algae questions very much:-)

That's the biggest issue, not whether sanke oil no#1 works or not.
Then the plants grow which is the goal in the first place.

BTW -- I have anecdotal evidence that treating a tank with
KMnSO4 works as a remedy for blue-green algae, which
would sort of link in with the peroxide thing. I'm curious now...


Permangnate works great as does any strong oxidizer like bleach,
peroxide, even pure O2, O3, water changes and removal of excess
organic material which reduces the tank's environment.

Cheers,


Michi.


But yes, you have the right idea there Michi.
I much prefer using light to get rid of algae and then re set the tank
parameters. Cheaper and less risk and works. Other algae can be
trimmed off or filtered etc.

Regards,
Tom Barr


  #26   Report Post  
Old 28-03-2004, 09:03 AM
Tyler
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

IMHO, a water change or many would be better.


On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:48:37 -0500, "Shawn P. Good"
wrote:

Does anyone have experience treating "green water algae" infestations with
barley straw extract ? What were your conclusions ? Did it work or not
work ?

Also, does it actually *kill* the algae ? Or does it just clarify the water
in some other way ? I have a 55gal tank and the bottle I was looking at
online at www.thatfishplace.com says it treats 2,500gals. So that's making
me think now that I have the infestation, I'll have to treat it forever and
ever.

If barley straw extract ISN'T the best way to deal with green water algae,
what is ?

Thanks - Shawn


  #27   Report Post  
Old 28-03-2004, 03:08 PM
Shawn P. Good
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

You obviously haven't ever had a bloom of green water algae then, have you ?
You can do a 90% water change - which I have, and 3 days later it's pea soup
green again. Especially if you're running high lighting for a planted tank.
I suspect you could even take the fish out and do a 100% water change, and
the problem would still not go away, still the algal cells would just settle
to the bottom in the gravel, and then resuspend when you filled it back up.
The only way a water change could help would be if you also disinfected
everything in between - a complete tear down. Disinfect the gravel,
disinfect and scrub the inside of the tank, chlorine-dip all the plants and
driftwood and anything else in the tank. This is something I want to avoid.

Since having the green water algae bloom, I've done up to 80% water changes
every 3 days, just to keep it from looking like crap. I'm currently trying
the "total darkness" method I read about on the Kribs. Theoretically, 4
days or so of total darkness kills the primitive single celled algae
completely while the fish and the higher plants do not suffer. Well, at
least the plants do not suffer to the point of dying.

I'm crossing my fingers .....

Shawn (Original Poster on the Barely Straw Extract)




"Tyler" wrote in message
...
IMHO, a water change or many would be better.


On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:48:37 -0500, "Shawn P. Good"
wrote:

Does anyone have experience treating "green water algae" infestations

with
barley straw extract ? What were your conclusions ? Did it work or not
work ?

Also, does it actually *kill* the algae ? Or does it just clarify the

water
in some other way ? I have a 55gal tank and the bottle I was looking at
online at www.thatfishplace.com says it treats 2,500gals. So that's

making
me think now that I have the infestation, I'll have to treat it forever

and
ever.

If barley straw extract ISN'T the best way to deal with green water

algae,
what is ?

Thanks - Shawn




  #28   Report Post  
Old 28-03-2004, 04:36 PM
NetMax
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

On the 4 day black-out, I've had mixed results reported on this, but
mostly negative. I assume that for it to be effective, there must be
some other condition in the tank, (perhaps they are approaching some
growth constraint?). Let us know how it worked for you. I also found
water changes ineffective. Had good results reported from using a
phosphate pillow though.

NetMax

"Shawn P. Good" wrote in message
...
You obviously haven't ever had a bloom of green water algae then, have

you ?
You can do a 90% water change - which I have, and 3 days later it's pea

soup
green again. Especially if you're running high lighting for a planted

tank.
I suspect you could even take the fish out and do a 100% water change,

and
the problem would still not go away, still the algal cells would just

settle
to the bottom in the gravel, and then resuspend when you filled it back

up.
The only way a water change could help would be if you also disinfected
everything in between - a complete tear down. Disinfect the gravel,
disinfect and scrub the inside of the tank, chlorine-dip all the plants

and
driftwood and anything else in the tank. This is something I want to

avoid.

Since having the green water algae bloom, I've done up to 80% water

changes
every 3 days, just to keep it from looking like crap. I'm currently

trying
the "total darkness" method I read about on the Kribs. Theoretically,

4
days or so of total darkness kills the primitive single celled algae
completely while the fish and the higher plants do not suffer. Well,

at
least the plants do not suffer to the point of dying.

I'm crossing my fingers .....

Shawn (Original Poster on the Barely Straw Extract)




"Tyler" wrote in message
...
IMHO, a water change or many would be better.


On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:48:37 -0500, "Shawn P. Good"
wrote:

Does anyone have experience treating "green water algae"

infestations
with
barley straw extract ? What were your conclusions ? Did it work or

not
work ?

Also, does it actually *kill* the algae ? Or does it just clarify

the
water
in some other way ? I have a 55gal tank and the bottle I was

looking at
online at www.thatfishplace.com says it treats 2,500gals. So that's

making
me think now that I have the infestation, I'll have to treat it

forever
and
ever.

If barley straw extract ISN'T the best way to deal with green water

algae,
what is ?

Thanks - Shawn






  #29   Report Post  
Old 29-03-2004, 05:43 PM
Vicki
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

"NetMax" wrote in message .. .
On the 4 day black-out, I've had mixed results reported on this, but
mostly negative. I assume that for it to be effective, there must be
some other condition in the tank, (perhaps they are approaching some
growth constraint?). Let us know how it worked for you. I also found
water changes ineffective. Had good results reported from using a
phosphate pillow though.

NetMax

I have also started having a little problems with algae due to
phosphate in my water source. I switched my ferts to Kent freshwater
which is phosphate free and started adding "PhosGuard" by Seachem to
my filters. So far it has worked a lot and I am happy with the
results. It did not get rid of it 100% but now that my plants are
doing better I hope that in a few more months I should be pretty close
to algae free. YMMV tho.

Vicki
  #30   Report Post  
Old 29-03-2004, 07:34 PM
 
Posts: n/a
Default Barley Straw Extract for Green Water Algae ?

"Shawn P. Good" wrote in message

I'm crossing my fingers .....

Shawn (Original Poster on the Barely Straw Extract)


Shawn, you will not beat GW in high light tank with nutrients and
often blackouts will not work as they often a week later come back.

The best method is mechanical filtration and/or UV sterilizers which
make quick work of GW in your case. Mild cases, less light, etc, water
changes, various algae snake oils will often work. But using PC lights
etc over 2.5w, generally the GW will stay for months or more.

You can use a diatom filter, or a cheap 9 3/4" filter cartiage from
Home depot, put a 5 micron pleated filter in there and run it for a
day or two with the filter outflow etc or a powerhead.

That's only about 20$ and makes a good water polisher.

GW is induced clearly by anything that influences the NH4 loading
rate.
Plants that are doing well will remove all of it before algae really
have a chance to get at it. When enough NH4 is present + high light,
the algae bloom.
Once they have bloomed, you cannot get rid of them without physical
removal, their nutrients needs are far beyond your test and even the
best labs in the USA's capability resolution, less than 2-4ppb PO4.
Yes, part's per _billion_.
There are not aquatic plants that can survive with that little PO4.
They also can use dissoloved organic PO4, wereas plants cannot in
many/most cases.

You can also use those hagen quick filters.
I'd do that with a blackout unless you have gloss etc, should be the
cheapest.
Borrowing a UV from a friend also works.

Once you get rid of it, make sure you do not slow the plant's uptake
of NH4 etc.

Adding too many fish will cause an algae for this precise reason, it
has nothing to do with PO4 and everything to do with NH4.

I can add 2ppm of PO4, I never can/could induce GW.
I went to 2ppm of PO4 and 75ppm of NO3 at 4 w/gal at a 16" depth and
lots of traces.

Later a small amount of NH4 was added and within 12 to 30 hours a
green water bloom. UV the tank, and repeated this several times.
Then tried adding progressively more and more fish/shrimp till an
algae bloom occured.

If you think PO4 causes algae, and removing it will help the plants,
you need to do some research on your own and also look up in the
literature. There's plenty of research out there but be careful to
apply the specific reference to your question that you are asking and
want to know about.
Marine algae or a plantless lake in Canada are not like a shallow
eutropic plant filled lake in the tropics. If you even see a plant
fill shallow lake, even if the nutrient levels are high or low, if you
add PO4 etc, the lakes remain gin clear.

Most folks that have issues with algae, often have problems with
dosing in general, often have trouble with CO2 mainly or NO3 or both.

You cannot say PO4 causes algae unless you make it your dependent
variable.
Other wise CO2/NO3 etc limitation is causing the problem and not high
PO4.

Until folks figure that out, that make incorrect assumptions about
algae and plants.

Other methods to deal with GW: Daphnia, copper sulfate,
blackout(generally takes 5 days)
If after the GW is gone and it comes back again, try adding more
plants, but really check the CO2 and perhaps add a little biomedia in
the filter box.

Regards,
Tom Barr


Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Barley Straw turned my pond water brown Lostin1999 Ponds 60 12-08-2004 10:17 PM
barley straw vs oats straw? G & K Meyer Ponds 5 13-05-2004 06:04 PM
Barley straw Gene Ponds 3 12-11-2003 04:42 PM
Barley Extract JJ Ponds 1 29-05-2003 07:34 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:55 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2020 GardenBanter.co.uk.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Gardening"

 

Copyright © 2017