Note: This message has been reposted using a different news server,
when it failed to propergate within 24 hours. My appologies in the
unlikely event that this message appears twice.

Well I have now perfected my water softening technique, where just
boiling batches of water in a large saucepan (with the lid on!) for a
few minutes on heavy boil does the trick.

My previous test from multiple boiled kettle water was this...

pH = 7.2
KH = 5
GH = 8
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 50 mg/l

I have improved slightly on that, when my latest test on my fully
processed (and slowly cooling) water now gives me a General Hardness
level of 7.

From my water processing the hardness in my water must be due to
Calcium Carbonate (lime scale), which also explains the large
reduction in the KH (Carbonate Hardness) level.

Heavy boiled water is subject to this mentioned film on the surface, a
whitened power over the emptied saucepan. And to top that off their is
also a white power sediment in the transfer jug.

Since I have seen that it is impossible and wasteful to try and
manually remove this junk, then I have moved on to filtering. And my
filter medium just happens to be coffee machine filter paper, which
has been hanging around here for a few years. Well no one here drinks
coffee much and would now use the instant kind anyway.

This filter paper I am sure is suitable, when there will be none of
those paper bits, where it appears to do a perfect job.

So later today I will do my first 20% to 30% aquarium water change
with this much softened water, where I can only hope that my fish can
slowly adjust to living in this water full time.

I can always mix it in with some regular tap water I guess, but I see
little wrong with this new near perfect water. As it is just a
question of if my fish can live fine in it, when my plants sure can.

It is sure going to use up a lot of energy with boiling all this water
each week or two, but doing so is much better than having my fish and
plants living in this calcium carbonate crap. And well you do not have
to boil the water for too long to draw it out.

So that seems like my water problem solved, without the need for any
expensive equipment either, where I just wish that years ago I knew
that a little water boiling and filtering could give me great aquarium
water.

All thanks to chemistry it seems, which makes me wonder where that KH
drop in the aquarium level comes from. When clearly something in the
tank is eating some of the calcium.

Seems almost like magic to me, when with one wave of my magical
saucepan, then plant killing water suddenly changes into the water of
life.

Not even Harry Potter could have done so well. =8-

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

"Cardman" wrote in message
...

Your conditions may well be too alkaline and hard for the plant to
thrive.

Maybe that is one reason why these two plants suffered a rapid death,
where only their core sections are now alive.

From what I have read Myriophyllum Tuberculatum is a little more
flexible in the water quality than what you seem to indicate, where it
just does not like the extremes.

Like my former extremely hard water.

Seems likely. I forgot to mention that the plant is also very light
demanding, which may be part of the problem.

And there they were doing so well in the pet shop with no real
maintenance sources, like a light, either. I think we know why that
is...

Because they order a bunch of new ones every week to replace the
ones that are dying? ;-)

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

If your fish are happy, no prob. Some species apparently die above 50ppm.
(No first-hand experience with this for me, I'm just repeating what I've read
in various books.) But other species tolerate much higher levels, so I guess
it depends on what fish you keep.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Not sure about that. I have a fairly heavily planted tank (admittedly with
not all that large a fish load). I have to add nitrates twice weekly to keep
the level at around 10ppm. Even if I dose the tank to 20ppm, three to four
days later, it's back down to zero. The plants definitely have something to
with this. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that there may also be some
amount of anaerobic nitrate reduction happening in my canister filter
and possible in parts of the substrate.

And so there is nothing that I can really do when it comes out the tap
at 50 mg/l +-20% to begin with, where the fish pooping will only cause
it to go higher.

That is unless you know of some way to turn Nitrate into something
else that won't harm fish?

Well, you could try lots of plants, and slow filter. That will contribute
toward reducing nitrates. You also add a denitrification filter. From
what I hear, they are a bit finicky though -- the the flow rate too high
and they do nothing, and get it too low, and they put hydrogen sulfate
into the water. (H2S is toxic.) But such a filter may not be a bad choice
given that you have high nitrate levels in your tap water.

Or you could use reverse osmosis water for all your water changes
(adding the appropriate salts to bring hardness up to what you want,
of course). But that's quite tedious process compared to just running
the garden hose into the tank.

In case you are interested, then I am soon to stock a load of varies
plants that are rated in the "easy" level and suitable for my water.

My shopping list is currently...

5 x Hygrophila Polysperma
1 x Anubias Nana
3 x Crinium Thainium
5 x Microsorium Pteropus
5 x (Assorted) Cryptocorynes

The hygrophila would be your best bet as a nitrate remover.
It's quick-growing and fixes nitrates well. The anubias, java fern,
and the crypts will do their bit too, but not as effectively because
they are fairly slow-growing plants. (I don't have experience with
the Crinium.) Another one you might want to consider is Vallisneria.
Good at removing nitrates and not easily infected by algae.

At any rate, lots of plants and few fish are likely to reduce nitrates
by quite a bit. And the plants will be happy with the nitrates -- it's
food :-) Keep the plants happy by adding traces (PMDD or some
such and CO2) and you may well find your nitrate levels dropping
quite a bit.

Cheers,

Michi.
--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

Note: This message has been reposted using a different news server,
when it failed to propergate within 24 hours. My appologies in the
unlikely event that this message appears twice.

I have just completed my first water change using my new processed
water. Naturally, I tested this water first so that it had acceptable
values including a low enough temperature.

That final test seemed to indicate a pH level of lower than 7.2, where
either 7.0 or 7.1 seemed about right.

Anyway, after deciding that my fish should have no problems quickly
adjusting to this new better water, when after all it will be diluted
in the old hard water first, then so could this change be done fairly
rapidly.

So maybe I will have it completely switched over within one to two
weeks, but I will closely monitor my fish during this. I hardly doubt
that they will have any problems with neutral soft water, but then
this is a rather new event around here.

Anyway, since I decided that more of the old water being removed the
better, then so did I remove 40% of the volume. The new water added
back 30% of this volume, which means that I have a 10% gap to soon
fill.

This warmer water increased the tank temperature by 3 degrees C, but
as this was done slowly and within acceptable limits, then so did my
fish have no problems.

One odd thing that I did see was that my fish actually enjoyed
swimming into this water as I was pouring in. Maybe they just liked
the unusual warmth, when my usual new water is much colder, but then
maybe they could also sense the major water quality change.

After yet another water test, then so does my tank mixed water (60%
hard + 30% soft) now look like this...

pH = 7.6
KH = 10
GH = 13
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 75

So this 30% soft water addition lowered the pH by 0.2 and the general
hardness has gone down by 7.5, where of course the Carbonate Hardness
has gone down by 5, thanks to my boiling and filtering out almost all
the Calcium Carbonate.

I guess Calcium Carbonate is an alkaline, when this explains my former
7.8 pH, when pH will drop the more of it that is removed.

Most pleasing of all is that the General Hardness of my water has
changed from the early stages of Extremely Hard, to the upper stages
of Average Hardness.

That alone offers me much greater choice in the plants that I can now
have, but the best is yet to come, when all this aquarium water is
slowly removed and diluted into the upper realm of Soft Water.

So as long as I remember to never use "water with rocks in it"
straight from the tap, then my aquarium can have Soft Water in an
Extremely Hard Water area.

I am very pleased by this fact, where I am sure that my dying plants
will like no longer living in alkaline based extremely hard water,
when myself, my fish and my plants are on the road to total neutral.

It is going to take a long time for these water change benefits to
appear in the plants and maybe even the fish, but this certainly won't
be a bad thing.

In the end I am just wondering what you can do with filtered out
Calcium Carbonate, besides throwing it away, when my filter paper has
amassed quite a collection.

Anyway, I hope that other aquarium owners in hard water areas found
this useful, when in my case at least you do not need to spend a small
fortune to have Soft Water.

I am now wondering if I should drink this water instead (prior to the
fish pooping in it!), when is Calcium Carbonate good for you? Y/N.

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

I have just completed my second water change with the objective of
changing my extremely hard alkaline aquarium water into soft neutral
water.

Not to mention that these water changes will also lower the Nitrate
level ever closer to 50 mg/l, which keeps the algae from spreading.

My aquarium used to be...

pH = 7.8
KH = 15
GH = 20.5
NO2 = 0.01 mg/l
NO3 = 100 mg/l

After this second water change this has now changed to...

pH = 7.4
KH = 8
GH = 10
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 70 mg/l

So today my aquarium has just moved from alkaline based water to
neutral based water, even if in the end I can get the pH down to very
close to 7.0.

Not that this aspect matters too much, when it is the General Hardness
that is the important aspect here, where this aspect has now gone from
the start of extremely hard, straight through hard, into medium, where
now we are on the lower end of medium hardness.

And so one more water change should have the pH at around 7.2 and the
GH at either the bottom of Medium or the very top of Soft.

My fish are doing just fine, as I expected they would, even if the
White Mollies prefer things more how they were.

Today I decided to get more lighting for my aquarium, which should
increase the range of plants that I can support. Since I will soon
have three aquariums up and running, then it would be a bit much to go
past two main tubes per tank.

I have found out a lot of information on the lighting subject now,
which means that I am very close to buying.

Also during my lighting search I came across a couple of devices known
as Nitrate Filters, which does just what I need in removing Nitrate
from my local water supply. Kind of on the costly side though, but
that would solve my algae problem once and for all.

In the end you are always left in wonder at how much it costs to
support a few cheap fish. I of course won't run through the price list
of items that you should know well, but getting these two new (or
correctly second hand) aquariums up and running makes for an expensive
shopping list.

At least all this is a one time only expense, excluding items that
fail of course, when apart from the food these fish only need your
attention in keeping their living conditions fine.

Using all that expensive and numerous equipment...

Sometimes I think that I should buy expensive fish to match my
expensive equipment, but in the case of my local fish shop, then it is
more a case of not having the new fish dying of one disease of
another.

Like that my last purchase came with two diseases.

First of all there was the common White Spot. And the problem here was
that the fish that came with this White Spot were my new Mollies. And
the thing about White Spot disease is that it is White, where the
thing about my Mollies is that they are also White.

And so to begin with I was only suspicious that they may have it,
where it was only when my Angel Fish (who was black) caught it, then
did I know for sure.

The problem there was that I spotted this late on Friday and placed an
on-line order minutes later, where the White Spot cure arrived on
Tuesday. By then one of my original three White Mollies had died, one
Golden Tiger Barb as well (three is now down to one), where the Angel
Fish having a large amount of surface area died rather quickly.

I was not too upset about that Angel Fish death, when he was a fish
murdering fish. As when I was making this aquarium into a peaceful
fish community, then so did my brother go out and buy this Angel Fish.

Lets just say that my 20 neon tetras were obliterated. And as this
Angel Fish slowly picked them off one by one, then it was only when
their numbers halved did I notice the problem.

That Angel Fish was like Jack the Ripper, where it would certainly go
for just about anything that got too close. So most fish learned to
stay out of it's way, where for years my care in keeping all these
fish alive also limited my fish choice due to this one Angel Fish.

So I was not too unhappy when White Spot quickly took out that mass
murdering Angel Fish, when I certainly won't allow any Angel Fish in
my aquariums again.

The second disease that my pet shop supplied was Tuberculosis, which
came with my very short lived Starlight Bristolnose Plecos. As they
died one by one, where it was only when all of them had died did I
discover the cause.

Normally when a fish dies I remove it from the aquarium as quickly as
possible, when I do not wish my other fish to catch what it died of,
but unfortunately the last Pleco died in a very inconvenient and hard
to spot location.

I soon had it located, but not before one of my catfish was feasting
upon it, where sure enough the bacterium that causes Tuberculosis
(Mycobacterium Piscium) spread and this catfish fell ill. I separated
it from the other fish, where this one displayed much better signs of
what it had.

Since there is no cure, then so did it soon die of a horrible death,
which is maybe one reason why the fish book recommends fish
termination. Even if they say it is to stop this disease spreading.

So I was not too happy with my local fish store, when 5 of these new
fish and 2 of my existing fish died. I lost my second Golden Tiger
Barb not long following for some unknown reason, where the final one
has been doing just fine for the months following all alone.

Tiger Barbs I find are those fish that will die before all others when
anything is going on the extremely bad side, but they look so nice and
so worth the risk. And so now I have to get more Golden Tiger Barbs,
when I always hate single species fish.

My second and last catfish also died following this time, but I would
put that one down to old age, when it had lived many years. Then again
it could have just been lonely, when it outlived two catfish friends
in that time.

No more deaths since then, when my aquarium works well enough even
with the hard water and higher Nitrate levels. One day soon I may even
risk a trip to my local fish shop again, where this time I will have a
separate aquarium to let them die in.

Think I may get me some loaches this time, when I always wanted to
master this creature of the darkness. Not to mention that I really had
to pity those loaches in the fish store, which were under a bright
light with no shelter at all.

I am sure that such stores should not be allowed to keep these fish so
badly, but then that is often due to ignorance. As I have certainly
learned the hard way how not to kill fish, where if you think about
it, then letting the inexperienced public own fish is really cruel to
these fish.

Many of these fish simply die due to their lack of understanding of
why they are dying. Not to mention their belief that all it takes to
keep them alive is to feed them.

Anyway, I guess any fish would be lucky to have me as their owner,
when I am slowly inching towards perfection. So fish are safe with me
as long as they don't catch anything from new fish, which is what one
of these two extra aquariums will solve.

I would also like to get a Fighting Fish as well along with a few
females, when these fish are safe enough. Sure they will go at
anything that gets too close, but they are just too slow to ever pose
a real problem.

And knowing me I would also buy any fish that is in any way unusual,
but currently the fish I have are rather boring. At this time I am
just planning to move my White Mollies to the larger tank, when these
two breeding to seven is coming close to maximum capacity.

Anyway, time to go and sort out my lighting, then to add yet more
costly items needed to get these other two aquariums active.

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 13:41:35 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

"Cardman" wrote in message
.. .

Like my former extremely hard water.

Seems likely. I forgot to mention that the plant is also very light
demanding, which may be part of the problem.

Yes, which why it seems rather hopeless at providing for it's very
high light requirements. Not good water and not good lighting would
well explain why this plant died so quickly.

And there they were doing so well in the pet shop with no real
maintenance sources, like a light, either. I think we know why that
is...

Because they order a bunch of new ones every week to replace the
ones that are dying? ;-)

Seems like they do that for the fish as well. As I have been to more
than a few fish stores in my time, where that one was quite bad with
more than a few fish dying in their many aquariums.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

If your fish are happy, no prob. Some species apparently die above 50ppm.
(No first-hand experience with this for me, I'm just repeating what I've read
in various books.) But other species tolerate much higher levels, so I guess
it depends on what fish you keep.

I guess that any fish that does not like my water would soon exit it,
which at least reminds me of one case where that has happened. An
elephant-nosed something or other I recall, which had to navigate a
very hard assault course to eventually die on the wrong side of my
former condensation lid.

That was many years ago, but I named that one James Bond for doing
something that I considered near impossible. Up through a tiny gap, on
to the backing shelf, through an inch wide hole, then to die on the
condensation lid under the light.

Most fish living in this region I guess would soon adjust to the local
water supply, when I doubt that many people would spend hours
processing their water first.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Not sure about that. I have a fairly heavily planted tank (admittedly with
not all that large a fish load).

Obviously we can now see why your Nitrate levels are so low, where
equally removing my many fish from my tank would do the same.

My increasing Nitrate problem I am sure is due to my White Mollies who
like to both eat and poop a great deal. That is part of the reason why
they would soon be in a larger 40 gallon aquarium, when these five
young White Mollies are soon to become adults.

I would say at a crude guess that my Nitrate levels increase by about
50ppm per week, which is why I cannot leave it for more than a couple
of weeks without a good water change, when algae growth is explosive
if I do not change the water in that time.

I have to add nitrates twice weekly to keep
the level at around 10ppm. Even if I dose the tank to 20ppm, three to four
days later, it's back down to zero. The plants definitely have something to
with this. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that there may also be some
amount of anaerobic nitrate reduction happening in my canister filter
and possible in parts of the substrate.

Sounds like you need some more fish, where my White Mollies make for a
good example of the type that would be good at Nitrate production.

They don't much eat the plants either, when they seem to prefer algae,
but maybe you prefer manually adding Nitrate.

The only thing about Mollies is that the largest male can go about
chasing both other males and females in their mating ritual. So it is
not a good idea to keep Mollies with the likes of Swordtails, Platies
and maybe even Guppies.

And so there is nothing that I can really do when it comes out the tap
at 50 mg/l +-20% to begin with, where the fish pooping will only cause
it to go higher.

That is unless you know of some way to turn Nitrate into something
else that won't harm fish?

Well, you could try lots of plants,

I am giving that serious consideration, but then that enters a whole
new area of caring for plants as well. As until now I just have a
handful of plants and let them grow.

and slow filter.

What type?

My aquarium has a two filter system that I find works very well,
excluding the aspect of Nitrate control.

First of all this aquarium has an under gravel filter, which is
attached to a power head. This works very well in sucking waste
material into the gravel, where the bacteria does a very efficient job
with the NO2 to NO3 cycle.

This power head also does a great job of providing vast volumes of
oxygen (air) into the aquarium, which is why it is the main aspect for
keeping my aquarium in working order.

I have a second air system that I am soon to replace, when this weak
pump is just no good at getting air into the water depths.

My second filter is just one of those sponge types, which I let sit on
the gravel to one side, where of course on the gravel is where the
waste material is to be found.

That will contribute
toward reducing nitrates. You also add a denitrification filter. From
what I hear, they are a bit finicky though -- the the flow rate too high
and they do nothing, and get it too low, and they put hydrogen sulfate
into the water. (H2S is toxic.) But such a filter may not be a bad choice
given that you have high nitrate levels in your tap water.

Yes, where I have already come to the conclusion that I will need to
add one of these to my shopping list in the near future. When high
Nitrate levels in the tap water is a new thing for me.

I will certainly remember about the flow rate, but hopefully this is
not the case of replacing one problem with a worse problem.

Or you could use reverse osmosis water for all your water changes
(adding the appropriate salts to bring hardness up to what you want,
of course). But that's quite tedious process compared to just running
the garden hose into the tank.

My boiling method works great at softening my water and turning it
into what aquarium water should be, where only the remaining 50ppm
Nitrate levels is an issue.

My shopping list is currently...

5 x Hygrophila Polysperma
1 x Anubias Nana
3 x Crinium Thainium
5 x Microsorium Pteropus
5 x (Assorted) Cryptocorynes

The hygrophila would be your best bet as a nitrate remover.
It's quick-growing and fixes nitrates well. The anubias, java fern,
and the crypts will do their bit too, but not as effectively because
they are fairly slow-growing plants.

I will keep that I mind. I am soon to review my plant choice to make
fully sure that they are suitable, where the Hygrophila ones certainly
are after my quick check.

(I don't have experience with the Crinium.)

Well I just like the unusual nature of this plant, where it is a slow
growing plant that needs lots of space. So this is my exception to the
fast growing pack them together types that I would ideally need.

Another one you might want to consider is Vallisneria.

I already have one, when that was the one plant out of my random three
plant choice that did do well. So well that it is trying to take over
the surface of this small 20 gallon aquarium.

As I mentioned before that is why I am soon to move it to the 40
gallon aquarium, even if I have a feeling that like adding 10 bunches
of this plant for near out of control plant growth is the type of
Nitrate handling system that I need.

Still, I would desire to see my fish after this.

Good at removing nitrates and not easily infected by algae.

Very true, when it is my third plant that I cannot identify that is
suffering some kind of black algae covering to it's leafs. I tried
cleaning this off the other day, but it is suck on there very well.

This plant I am sure will benefit from my soon to be improved
lighting, when I would say that is what this plant is most lacking,
when it is suck in the middle of plant growth and plant death.

At any rate, lots of plants and few fish are likely to reduce nitrates
by quite a bit.

I would prefer more than a few fish and tackling Nitrate levels by all
available methods. I just hope that my White Mollies slow down on the
breeding, when two White Mollies to seven White Molllies over just a
few months gives me visions of what a couple of years worth can
produce.

And the plants will be happy with the nitrates -- it's
food :-) Keep the plants happy by adding traces (PMDD or some
such and CO2)

I had a feeling that you would mention CO2. :-/

At this time I am starting to use some Blue Trace plant supplement.

and you may well find your nitrate levels dropping
quite a bit.

I have a feeling that removing Nitrate from my water supply is my
current best method for keeping Nitrate levels under control. As I
still doubt that these plants will be able to fully deal with the
Nitrate production within this aquarium.

So having both a Nitrate Filter and plants would keep Nitrate levels
within acceptable values.

Thanks for your advice.

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 13:41:35 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

"Cardman" wrote in message
.. .

Like my former extremely hard water.

Seems likely. I forgot to mention that the plant is also very light
demanding, which may be part of the problem.

Yes, which why it seems rather hopeless at providing for it's very
high light requirements. Not good water and not good lighting would
well explain why this plant died so quickly.

And there they were doing so well in the pet shop with no real
maintenance sources, like a light, either. I think we know why that
is...

Because they order a bunch of new ones every week to replace the
ones that are dying? ;-)

Seems like they do that for the fish as well. As I have been to more
than a few fish stores in my time, where that one was quite bad with
more than a few fish dying in their many aquariums.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

If your fish are happy, no prob. Some species apparently die above 50ppm.
(No first-hand experience with this for me, I'm just repeating what I've read
in various books.) But other species tolerate much higher levels, so I guess
it depends on what fish you keep.

I guess that any fish that does not like my water would soon exit it,
which at least reminds me of one case where that has happened. An
elephant-nosed something or other I recall, which had to navigate a
very hard assault course to eventually die on the wrong side of my
former condensation lid.

That was many years ago, but I named that one James Bond for doing
something that I considered near impossible. Up through a tiny gap, on
to the backing shelf, through an inch wide hole, then to die on the
condensation lid under the light.

Most fish living in this region I guess would soon adjust to the local
water supply, when I doubt that many people would spend hours
processing their water first.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Not sure about that. I have a fairly heavily planted tank (admittedly with
not all that large a fish load).

Obviously we can now see why your Nitrate levels are so low, where
equally removing my many fish from my tank would do the same.

My increasing Nitrate problem I am sure is due to my White Mollies who
like to both eat and poop a great deal. That is part of the reason why
they would soon be in a larger 40 gallon aquarium, when these five
young White Mollies are soon to become adults.

I would say at a crude guess that my Nitrate levels increase by about
50ppm per week, which is why I cannot leave it for more than a couple
of weeks without a good water change, when algae growth is explosive
if I do not change the water in that time.

I have to add nitrates twice weekly to keep
the level at around 10ppm. Even if I dose the tank to 20ppm, three to four
days later, it's back down to zero. The plants definitely have something to
with this. I suspect (but don't know for sure) that there may also be some
amount of anaerobic nitrate reduction happening in my canister filter
and possible in parts of the substrate.

Sounds like you need some more fish, where my White Mollies make for a
good example of the type that would be good at Nitrate production.

They don't much eat the plants either, when they seem to prefer algae,
but maybe you prefer manually adding Nitrate.

The only thing about Mollies is that the largest male can go about
chasing both other males and females in their mating ritual. So it is
not a good idea to keep Mollies with the likes of Swordtails, Platies
and maybe even Guppies.

And so there is nothing that I can really do when it comes out the tap
at 50 mg/l +-20% to begin with, where the fish pooping will only cause
it to go higher.

That is unless you know of some way to turn Nitrate into something
else that won't harm fish?

Well, you could try lots of plants,

I am giving that serious consideration, but then that enters a whole
new area of caring for plants as well. As until now I just have a
handful of plants and let them grow.

and slow filter.

What type?

My aquarium has a two filter system that I find works very well,
excluding the aspect of Nitrate control.

First of all this aquarium has an under gravel filter, which is
attached to a power head. This works very well in sucking waste
material into the gravel, where the bacteria does a very efficient job
with the NO2 to NO3 cycle.

This power head also does a great job of providing vast volumes of
oxygen (air) into the aquarium, which is why it is the main aspect for
keeping my aquarium in working order.

I have a second air system that I am soon to replace, when this weak
pump is just no good at getting air into the water depths.

My second filter is just one of those sponge types, which I let sit on
the gravel to one side, where of course on the gravel is where the
waste material is to be found.

That will contribute
toward reducing nitrates. You also add a denitrification filter. From
what I hear, they are a bit finicky though -- the the flow rate too high
and they do nothing, and get it too low, and they put hydrogen sulfate
into the water. (H2S is toxic.) But such a filter may not be a bad choice
given that you have high nitrate levels in your tap water.

Yes, where I have already come to the conclusion that I will need to
add one of these to my shopping list in the near future. When high
Nitrate levels in the tap water is a new thing for me.

I will certainly remember about the flow rate, but hopefully this is
not the case of replacing one problem with a worse problem.

Or you could use reverse osmosis water for all your water changes
(adding the appropriate salts to bring hardness up to what you want,
of course). But that's quite tedious process compared to just running
the garden hose into the tank.

My boiling method works great at softening my water and turning it
into what aquarium water should be, where only the remaining 50ppm
Nitrate levels is an issue.

My shopping list is currently...

5 x Hygrophila Polysperma
1 x Anubias Nana
3 x Crinium Thainium
5 x Microsorium Pteropus
5 x (Assorted) Cryptocorynes

The hygrophila would be your best bet as a nitrate remover.
It's quick-growing and fixes nitrates well. The anubias, java fern,
and the crypts will do their bit too, but not as effectively because
they are fairly slow-growing plants.

I will keep that I mind. I am soon to review my plant choice to make
fully sure that they are suitable, where the Hygrophila ones certainly
are after my quick check.

(I don't have experience with the Crinium.)

Well I just like the unusual nature of this plant, where it is a slow
growing plant that needs lots of space. So this is my exception to the
fast growing pack them together types that I would ideally need.

Another one you might want to consider is Vallisneria.

I already have one, when that was the one plant out of my random three
plant choice that did do well. So well that it is trying to take over
the surface of this small 20 gallon aquarium.

As I mentioned before that is why I am soon to move it to the 40
gallon aquarium, even if I have a feeling that like adding 10 bunches
of this plant for near out of control plant growth is the type of
Nitrate handling system that I need.

Still, I would desire to see my fish after this.

Good at removing nitrates and not easily infected by algae.

Very true, when it is my third plant that I cannot identify that is
suffering some kind of black algae covering to it's leafs. I tried
cleaning this off the other day, but it is suck on there very well.

This plant I am sure will benefit from my soon to be improved
lighting, when I would say that is what this plant is most lacking,
when it is suck in the middle of plant growth and plant death.

At any rate, lots of plants and few fish are likely to reduce nitrates
by quite a bit.

I would prefer more than a few fish and tackling Nitrate levels by all
available methods. I just hope that my White Mollies slow down on the
breeding, when two White Mollies to seven White Molllies over just a
few months gives me visions of what a couple of years worth can
produce.

And the plants will be happy with the nitrates -- it's
food :-) Keep the plants happy by adding traces (PMDD or some
such and CO2)

I had a feeling that you would mention CO2. :-/

At this time I am starting to use some Blue Trace plant supplement.

and you may well find your nitrate levels dropping
quite a bit.

I have a feeling that removing Nitrate from my water supply is my
current best method for keeping Nitrate levels under control. As I
still doubt that these plants will be able to fully deal with the
Nitrate production within this aquarium.

So having both a Nitrate Filter and plants would keep Nitrate levels
within acceptable values.

Thanks for your advice.

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 22:09:19 +1000, "Graham Broadbridge"
wrote:

"Cardman" wrote in message
.. .

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

100 ppm NO3 is extremely toxic for freshwater fish, but of course any animal
can acclimatize to unsavoury conditions given time.

Well, even had I replaced totally all the water, then Nitrate levels
would exceed 100ppm in about a week.

In rare occasions when I am just two occupied with other things, then
it is algae that controls my Nitrate levels by explosive algae growth.

I'm not surprised that
algae growth is slow at 100 ppm Nitrates. Algae is opportunistic and will
find a better environment or hibernate.

Currently I manually remove it as much as possible.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Plants use a lot of NO3 here. Given that your nitrate levels exceed 100ppm
I'm not surprised that you see no NO3 consumption.

My problem I am sure is half due to the Nitrate levels in my tap water
followed by more than a few fish in the aquarium.

The poor plants have no chance to even get started.

My plant problem is more a case of unsuitable plants for my former
water conditions and lighting, when those plants that are suitable do
very well.

Their problem then is mostly an algae one, where my Goldfish Weed is a
favoured sticking point for algae. And since this is difficult to
remove, then often some of the plant is removed with it.

I still have some of this plant growing in my tank, but either I need
to get algae and Nitrate levels in better control, or my new plants
will need to be algae resistant.

I'd suggest you reduce nitrate from your tap water to start with.

Yes, where now that I am aware that there is high levels of Nitrate in
my tap water, then so can I do something about it.

Keeping a good aquarium is all about such knowledge.

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

On Mon, 5 Apr 2004 22:09:19 +1000, "Graham Broadbridge"
wrote:

"Cardman" wrote in message
.. .

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

100 ppm NO3 is extremely toxic for freshwater fish, but of course any animal
can acclimatize to unsavoury conditions given time.

Well, even had I replaced totally all the water, then Nitrate levels
would exceed 100ppm in about a week.

In rare occasions when I am just two occupied with other things, then
it is algae that controls my Nitrate levels by explosive algae growth.

I'm not surprised that
algae growth is slow at 100 ppm Nitrates. Algae is opportunistic and will
find a better environment or hibernate.

Currently I manually remove it as much as possible.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

Plants use a lot of NO3 here. Given that your nitrate levels exceed 100ppm
I'm not surprised that you see no NO3 consumption.

My problem I am sure is half due to the Nitrate levels in my tap water
followed by more than a few fish in the aquarium.

The poor plants have no chance to even get started.

My plant problem is more a case of unsuitable plants for my former
water conditions and lighting, when those plants that are suitable do
very well.

Their problem then is mostly an algae one, where my Goldfish Weed is a
favoured sticking point for algae. And since this is difficult to
remove, then often some of the plant is removed with it.

I still have some of this plant growing in my tank, but either I need
to get algae and Nitrate levels in better control, or my new plants
will need to be algae resistant.

I'd suggest you reduce nitrate from your tap water to start with.

Yes, where now that I am aware that there is high levels of Nitrate in
my tap water, then so can I do something about it.

Keeping a good aquarium is all about such knowledge.

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 13:41:35 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

Another one you might want to consider is Vallisneria.

Actually, speaking of Vallisneria, then I was just wondering after
this mention how this plant reproduced. With the notion here of course
that this is a nice plant for my aquarium, where more of them is not a
bad idea.

And so I went to take a good look at my Vallisneria, where I just
noticed that it is already reproducing. As this large plant has put
out two shoots in opposite directions near it's own roots, where these
have penetrated the gravel only a few cm away.

From those two points, then one new plant is already well established,
where a second one is just starting. Further more a third new plant
has started near the better established one.

Then there is a new shoot further out from these two, where I can only
assume that this first offshoot from the main plant has traveled
across and under the gravel for about 20cm so far producing new plants
as it goes.

So my one Vallisneria is already five Vallisnerias with no doubt more
to come. This I guess is all one plant so far, where I have no idea it
they will naturally separate.

Kind of a shame that I will soon have to break this up when I move
this plant and lots more to the bigger aquarium.

So I guess that this Vallisneria is taking care of itself without
myself having to do anything. Just the type of aquarium plant I
like...

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 13:41:35 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

Another one you might want to consider is Vallisneria.

Actually, speaking of Vallisneria, then I was just wondering after
this mention how this plant reproduced. With the notion here of course
that this is a nice plant for my aquarium, where more of them is not a
bad idea.

And so I went to take a good look at my Vallisneria, where I just
noticed that it is already reproducing. As this large plant has put
out two shoots in opposite directions near it's own roots, where these
have penetrated the gravel only a few cm away.

From those two points, then one new plant is already well established,
where a second one is just starting. Further more a third new plant
has started near the better established one.

Then there is a new shoot further out from these two, where I can only
assume that this first offshoot from the main plant has traveled
across and under the gravel for about 20cm so far producing new plants
as it goes.

So my one Vallisneria is already five Vallisnerias with no doubt more
to come. This I guess is all one plant so far, where I have no idea it
they will naturally separate.

Kind of a shame that I will soon have to break this up when I move
this plant and lots more to the bigger aquarium.

So I guess that this Vallisneria is taking care of itself without
myself having to do anything. Just the type of aquarium plant I
like...

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 21:33:29 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

My previous rambling...
pH = 7.8
KH = 15
GH = 20.5
NO2 = 0.01 mg/l
NO3 = 100 mg/l

Also, Myriophyllum is happer in slightly acidic and soft water.

Well my tank water will one day soon be this...

pH = 7.0-7.2
KH = 5
GH = 7
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 50-100 mg/l

You can see my more recent postings for the details, which makes for
water that may be more favourable to this plant.

Your conditions may well be too alkaline and hard for the plant to
thrive.

Maybe that is one reason why these two plants suffered a rapid death,
where only their core sections are now alive.

From what I have read Myriophyllum Tuberculatum is a little more
flexible in the water quality than what you seem to indicate, where it
just does not like the extremes.

Like my former extremely hard water.

(Even under ideal conditions, Myriophyllum Tuberculatum
is considered a difficult plant to grow and will not do well in many
tanks.)

Yes, I found that out, when I began searching into why these plants
were dying. Since it is a question of trying to save them, or having
them visit my bin, then it is best to see if I can save them first.

I am starting to think that this could be rather hopeless though.

And there they were doing so well in the pet shop with no real
maintenance sources, like a light, either. I think we know why that
is...

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

And so there is nothing that I can really do when it comes out the tap
at 50 mg/l +-20% to begin with, where the fish pooping will only cause
it to go higher.

That is unless you know of some way to turn Nitrate into something
else that won't harm fish?

So my objective is always to try and keep Nitrate levels below 100
mg/l, when going above 150 mg/l poses a rapid algae problem. Like even
now I am starting to get a little algae growth on the glass again,
after I had scraped the last lot off.

Plants I am sure will help slow the Nitrate advancement to an unknown
degree, but at this time I have 7 White Mollies, 5 Red-Eyed Tetras and
2 other fish (not in my fish book...). And with the White Mollies at
least that is a lot of end Nitrate production.

In case you are interested, then I am soon to stock a load of varies
plants that are rated in the "easy" level and suitable for my water.

My shopping list is currently...

5 x Hygrophila Polysperma
1 x Anubias Nana
3 x Crinium Thainium
5 x Microsorium Pteropus
5 x (Assorted) Cryptocorynes

Since I am in the process of changing my water quality by a
considerable degree, then I will have to review these and make sure
that they are suitable for my new water.

Any comments in my 18 plant choice welcome.

My only issue at the moment is with these Crinium Thainium (onion like
plants), when they need lots of space. For my small 20 gallon tank
that would be impossible, but I will soon have my other 20 and 40
gallon tanks up and running. So one in each tank could have them
growing just fine in lots of space.

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 21:33:29 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

My previous rambling...
pH = 7.8
KH = 15
GH = 20.5
NO2 = 0.01 mg/l
NO3 = 100 mg/l

Also, Myriophyllum is happer in slightly acidic and soft water.

Well my tank water will one day soon be this...

pH = 7.0-7.2
KH = 5
GH = 7
NO2 = 0
NO3 = 50-100 mg/l

You can see my more recent postings for the details, which makes for
water that may be more favourable to this plant.

Your conditions may well be too alkaline and hard for the plant to
thrive.

Maybe that is one reason why these two plants suffered a rapid death,
where only their core sections are now alive.

From what I have read Myriophyllum Tuberculatum is a little more
flexible in the water quality than what you seem to indicate, where it
just does not like the extremes.

Like my former extremely hard water.

(Even under ideal conditions, Myriophyllum Tuberculatum
is considered a difficult plant to grow and will not do well in many
tanks.)

Yes, I found that out, when I began searching into why these plants
were dying. Since it is a question of trying to save them, or having
them visit my bin, then it is best to see if I can save them first.

I am starting to think that this could be rather hopeless though.

And there they were doing so well in the pet shop with no real
maintenance sources, like a light, either. I think we know why that
is...

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species.

My fish can live in much higher levels perfectly fine, where they just
become unhappy in a world where algae rules. So they are very happy
with anything between 50 and 150 mg/l, when algae growth is very slow
at this level.

Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

A nice idea, but what you do not mention is that plants in fact use up
very little Nitrate, which is why I would have to bed plants very
heavily for any beneficial effects.

And so there is nothing that I can really do when it comes out the tap
at 50 mg/l +-20% to begin with, where the fish pooping will only cause
it to go higher.

That is unless you know of some way to turn Nitrate into something
else that won't harm fish?

So my objective is always to try and keep Nitrate levels below 100
mg/l, when going above 150 mg/l poses a rapid algae problem. Like even
now I am starting to get a little algae growth on the glass again,
after I had scraped the last lot off.

Plants I am sure will help slow the Nitrate advancement to an unknown
degree, but at this time I have 7 White Mollies, 5 Red-Eyed Tetras and
2 other fish (not in my fish book...). And with the White Mollies at
least that is a lot of end Nitrate production.

In case you are interested, then I am soon to stock a load of varies
plants that are rated in the "easy" level and suitable for my water.

My shopping list is currently...

5 x Hygrophila Polysperma
1 x Anubias Nana
3 x Crinium Thainium
5 x Microsorium Pteropus
5 x (Assorted) Cryptocorynes

Since I am in the process of changing my water quality by a
considerable degree, then I will have to review these and make sure
that they are suitable for my new water.

Any comments in my 18 plant choice welcome.

My only issue at the moment is with these Crinium Thainium (onion like
plants), when they need lots of space. For my small 20 gallon tank
that would be impossible, but I will soon have my other 20 and 40
gallon tanks up and running. So one in each tank could have them
growing just fine in lots of space.

Cardman.
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk

"Graham Broadbridge" wrote in message
u...
"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species. Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

At 100 ppm NO3 there is some evidence that plants themselves shut down at
normal (0.05 - 0.1 ppm) Fe and trace levels.

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks! Do you have any links?

Cheers,

Michi.
--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

"Graham Broadbridge" wrote in message
u...
"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species. Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

At 100 ppm NO3 there is some evidence that plants themselves shut down at
normal (0.05 - 0.1 ppm) Fe and trace levels.

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks! Do you have any links?

Cheers,

Michi.
--
Michi Henning Ph: +61 4 1118-2700
ZeroC, Inc. http://www.zeroc.com

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 21:40:25 GMT, "Michi Henning"
wrote:

"Graham Broadbridge" wrote in message
. au...
"Michi Henning" wrote in message
...

BTW -- you should try to get those nitrate levels down. 100ppm is
definitely on the very high side where it will be toxic for at least some
fish species. Adding lots more plants will help in reducing nitrate
levels.

At 100 ppm NO3 there is some evidence that plants themselves shut down at
normal (0.05 - 0.1 ppm) Fe and trace levels.

Ah, I didn't know that, thanks! Do you have any links?

I cannot say that I have ever seen that myself with my 100ppm plus
Nitrate levels. As even my Myriophyllum Tuberculatum (red) ones, who
due to my extremely hard water and low lighting, only went and turned
brown and died greatly back are now putting out some green shoots.

Kind of odd to have a naturally Red plant that is Brown and Green
instead, but there you go.

I will keep that in mind though, but I cannot see how too much Nitrate
food can ever be a problem. Maybe that depends on the plant species,
where that would be an unusual species.

So I would also be interested in further details, when it could be
something to watch out for. Nitrate at 100ppm is not that high as
these things can go, when my aquarium Nitrate levels would exceed that
level just before my weekly water change.

At most I guess is that I have grown plants in Nitrate levels of
250ppm plus before, but of course then they and everything else gets
attacked by algae.

One reason I guess why too much Nitrate levels in nature, with for
example sewage discharge will kill plants, when there is no one to
clean the algae off the plants.

Well my water guide mentions that Nitrate levels between 25 and 100
are normal aquarium levels, even if it also says that Nitrate levels
should ideally be kept below 25 to avoid algae growth.

Anyway, today I finally got around to ordering those 18 plants for
this aquarium and then a couple of plants to go in my other aquariums,
where I will be happy to report how my Nitrate levels change.

I can only hope for a Nitrate reduction, when then I won't have to buy
that more expensive Nitrate Filter, but I consider that a long shot.

Cardman
http://www.cardman.com
http://www.cardman.co.uk